Stop Thinking Like a Clinician, and Start Thinking Like a CEO with Katie Hohman

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Rockstars. Today's special guest is Katie Homan. She is the CEO of both a physical therapy practice in Florida as well as Heno Heno H E N o an EMR software designed for physical therapist that she developed initially for her own private practice that has expanded to into a very powerful EMR that many private practices are using. What's cool about our interview today is that we're going to be talking to her specifically about how she made the transition from clinician to entrepreneur, from entrepreneur to leader of a team that ran her practice for her so well that she was able to start another company in a completely different industry which is software. So she's going to talk a little bit about Hino, where that came from and and very unique lessons around culture and how she's adapted lessons from her tech company back to her PT practice to create this unbelievable thriving business that is continuing to scale. Enjoy the show.

So Katie, you're the CEO and founder of not just an awesome multi location physical therapy practice but you also have Heno this industry leading emr. How are you able to balance those two things and a family? It just seems absolutely beyond my imagination.

You know what's funny is the family part is the harder of it really.

I guess that makes sense because it's, it's like the most valuable, most important aspect.

Sure, absolutely. And I'm middle school boys. So what are they doing? Constant activities and driving here and there. And so that, that's the most challenging part of it. I feel like.

How old are your boys?

11 and 13.

Okay. I've got two boys around the same age so I understand that world. It's a lot of driving.

Yeah. Yep.

So you're balancing that whole thing. But how does that look every day like is, you know, because you, you. How many you have this, how many. Tell us about your, your PT practice first because that was, that's what came first was the PT practice. Right?

Yeah. Yeah. So in 2009 I opened the first location and then we have three today. They're all within like 10 miles of each other or kind of like a little, nice little triangle to the west of Orlando. Day to day.

I try to get to every office once a week even if it's just for a short period of time. But then things change. Right. Your day could totally go not as planned. So like this morning I was in one office and this afternoon I'm in another. But I typically will work at home two to three days a week.

Amazing. Is that, are those, are those days more. Hino focused.

Not necessarily. I just find that I have way less interruptions and I have, you know, a great. A better setup. Like, I feel like the setup and place that I work in the offices is kind of like transient. Like, you know, anyone could just sit down and plug into the monitor there. So it's not. I don't know, I'm not as efficient, I guess, when I'm in the office.

Well, that's amazing. So talk about leadership structure that you currently have. So do you have clinical directors? And then how is he structured?

Yeah, so in the practice, I have clinical directors. I don't have one yet for the new office. I'm kind of waiting until that grows a little bit more to bring in somebody for that. But I have clinical directors. I also have a chief operations officer who's been with me since the day I opened in 2009. And so he oversees the clinical directors and the office manager. And then it kind of trickles down from there.

Amazing. So, okay, I think this is great because today's episode, obviously our focus is always on helping people understand how to build their network. That's the real value. But then there's these leadership concepts that we're constantly addressing. And one of the things that you've done that isn't as common is layers of leadership in two different industries. EMR is not physical therapy. That's not healthcare. That is. Is a tech company. That is a different. So it's like for your. There's an overlap, of course, in how they serve, but for you, I just wonder how is he know, structured in terms of leadership?

First of all, he know everybody is remote. At one point, we did have an office in Orlando, and then this little thing called Covid. And everyone seemed. Everyone seemed really happy to just stay at home. And so, you know, we eliminated the need for actual office unless we're having meetings or somebody comes into town. But we have, let's see, we have a development team, we have a billing and RCM team. We have a customer support team. We have an onboarding team. And then we have like a product development team. So we have a manager for each level. Oh, and sales, of course.

And is there someone overseeing that or is that you?

No, no, no, no. My husband oversees all of those managers. I'm involved, so I'm in the meetings and, you know, brainstorming and that kind of thing. But I'm not. I don't oversee the day to day as far as that goes.

You know, rockstars. What Katie's talking about here is one of these products that come from after we have a lot put in place in terms of systems and structure. At the end of the day, Katie couldn't do what she's doing if she didn't have great leaders at every location. And truly I would. I'm willing to bet that as busy as you are, there's a lot of people with one location who are so much busier because they're treating like 80 hours a week and they're trying to, like, hire and all these things, and they don't. They look at someone like you and they go, there's no way I'll ever get to where Katie's at. So how did you learn, like, what was your path of figuring out leadership concepts and learning how to bring on the right people and train them up correctly so that they can take care of it so that you can move on to other things?

Well, I think it is a really difficult transition to make from being in patient care. And you're like, I'm generating revenue. So not only the factor of, like, I love patients, I love interacting with people. I love, you know, seeing the difference from when they walk in to when they leave. But it's also, like, the financial aspect is a huge thing for pt, right? Because our margins are pretty tight because we're not in too much control of them. I think.

That probably started with me with really putting trust and faith into coaches that I had, business coaches, and just getting that perspective of, like, I know you think in the short term you're not going to, you know, there's not going to be the money there to be able to do that. But I, I listened to them and I was able to, you know, find people that really could carry on processes, procedures, you know, treat patients the way I want to be treated and just really run with it.

That's amazing. And, you know, especially, you know, as you were growing this company, at what stage did you start thinking about creating Hino? Tell me about the birth of Hino.

So I would say probably a year in to having a practice. So. My husband's a software developer. He's worked for Oracle for 18 years. He worked with Oracle when he was in the Air Force. He is a genius on computers. Don't tell me I said that.

We don't want to go too big. We want to make sure we keep it nice and humble. I get it.

Yes, yes. But no, I mean, just seeing the little projects he was doing at work, I was kind of like, okay, well, I'm using this and this and this and I'm paying, you know, even if it was cheap, even it was 20 bucks a month, 30 bucks a month. The more systems you have, the more expensive that becomes fast. But not only with the cost you're paying them, but with the cost of my time. And it was just taking forever. So I had, you know, I was like, we're using this little rinky dink thing that costs $20 a month that basically sends your plan of care to the doctors. Can you write this so that we're not having to do this or manually fax anything? And so it just kind of morphed into, honey, this is what I need. Can you build it?

Okay, so very interesting. So he starts building this out. At what point did you start, like, recognizing it was a business?

At conferences. So going to conferences, talking with my peers, and that was always a hot topic. I mean, this was what, 2013.

There weren't. There wasn't that much out there at the time, except for, you know, the big guys. And a lot of our peers were like, well, what are you using? And then we'd tell them and kind of show them, and they're like, well, I want to use that. And we're like, well, that. We can't.

I'm just using it for us. It's a personalized system we created.

Yeah.

Interesting. How many years did you guys have that internally before you started to sell it to others?

So we went to market basically 2017. So a number of years. But I mean, like I said in the beginning, it was like little, little components, and then it just kind of built more and more. So then it. It ended up being able to do everything I could possibly need.

Wow, that's amazing. Well, you know, one of the reasons I'm excited to have you on the call was because I'd heard so much amazing feedback regarding HINO and what you guys are doing. And. But I think there's so much to be said about the leadership journey that you've been on, because there's. There's a lot that has had to happen in your world in order for you to start hino? And, you know, it's interesting because you still have your PT practice. I'm guessing at some point someone probably pushed on you to be like, why don't you sell that and just focus on HINO and all these things? So what has led to your decision to grow these two separate businesses side by side?

I think there's a few different things. So, first of all, I love my staff here. Like, honestly, I could work at home Five days a week and. And get just, you know, be as effective with being able to run and manage things at the clinics. But I like seeing them, like, I like interacting with everybody is. It's just a lot of fun. Even when you have turnover and your staff changes, as stressful as that is, as an owner, I still, you know, I still. I love the camaraderie and the culture that we've built. So that. That kind of brings me here.

So amazing, the people. You know, when I sold ice, you know, I had five locations. At one point, I sold my practice. Katie. It was such a surprise to me that the thing I missed the most was that amazing dream team that finally came together. And that came after years of not knowing how to be a leader or hiring the wrong people. So when I finally got to that point, it was such an amazing thing that I understand it. I've talked to many people who've sold their businesses. Once you get to that dream team, there's a real argument to never selling ever. Because at the end of the day, your daily activities are based on how you feel, and your joy is comprised of how you feel around the people you're with. So if you have great people that you love and they love you and you're out there helping each other grow, I mean, you know, unless you're selling for a billion dollars, even then people, like, sell that and they go miserable because they don't get that human interaction driving a purpose.

Right.

I think that's really. That's really neat. So what is it? How did you find your amazing team? Like, what was it that happened in your world to build this dream team over at your. And what's your PT practice called?

Home and rehab and sports therapy.

Easy to remember. Okay, so home and remand. So. So rehab. So, yeah. How did you find these wonderful people?

I would say the majority of our therapists are people we've known. So either they were students in our practice, did rotations with us, or they Actually, one of them, our clinic manager, is the husband of a student that we had. So it's. A lot of. It has been word of mouth lately, which has been awesome.

Oh, that's really cool, this word of mouth. Well, so again, you've got. It sounds like the way that you. You handle these two separate companies is by having leadership established in both. Is there anything else you would tell people about tips or tricks that have helped you manage this much on your plate? Is there anything else that you leverage?

Well, certainly having a leadership team, I'm delegating Like, I don't. You know, we have leadership meetings every single week for all the locations, and I sit in most of them, but I am not really an active participant. I let them collaborate. I let them, you know, go over the agenda. They're doing everything.

And I lean on them to be able to do that. I feel like it gives them more authority, autonomy.

And I think the biggest thing is, like, you have to not be afraid that they're going to make a mistake or not do something that you would do if it was you running it.

Yeah, I think that's a big reason why most people don't end up developing leaders is they are terrified that they're not going to do it the way that they're going to do the way that an owner would do it or that they would make a huge mistake. How have you confronted the moments when people do make mistakes? What does that look like, Katie, when you're managing or leading a leader?

Well, I mean, I think to some extent, you set up guardrails to begin with, right. So it's not just a total free for all, but you give them as much feedback as you feel like they might need to get something done. And if a mistake is made or something happens that isn't what you were hoping the outcome would be, you sit down. You have to be honest with them. They want to know that, too. I mean, I feel like every success that I've had in business is because, you know, well, on the. On the coattails of failures that I've had. Right. You make a mistake, you learn from it, you grow, and then the next time, you do it a lot better.

I love the guardrail thing. Like, you don't just. It's like a free for all. You help determine guardrails in some way. I had a coach, mentor of mine, he was running this hospital group in Arizona, so very large company, and. And he had a very key leader make a mistake that cost him over a million dollars. And he told, and I'll never forget this, he said, I pulled the leader aside, put my arm around him, and I said, you are worth every dollar of that loss, because I know you are going to learn from that and do so much better with it. And I remember thinking, I remember asking him, I said, now, come on, how come that wasn't a moment where you. How do you know between that and firing him? You know, Cause at a certain point, like, people can obviously not be a good fit if they're costing you a lot. And he said, well, he goes, this was a guy that I already knew was really good in a lot of areas. He already proved himself in multiple ways. This was the project I put him on, was a growth project, and it was me learning how to lead him in that project. And he did the best he could with what he had. He goes, that was the difference, is the effort. I love that you have such a nurturing culture in your company where you're letting leaders make mistakes in order to learn. I'm guessing that must help create trust in your organization as well.

Oh, 100%. I mean, if you take a step back and you think about it, you hire a pt, you're not sitting in every eval and every treatment and micromanaging how they're treating a patient. They're going to make mistakes with that patient, too. Especially if you hire a new grad. You know, they have to figure out their flow. They have to figure out, you know, how to resonate with so many different personalities of patients. You know, they may cost you a few patients, but are you going to fire them because of it? No. I mean, ideally, you're going to go in and sit down with them and be like, okay, look, this is the feedback I got from this patient. Let's make this into a learning experience here, and let's try to avoid that from happening again. What can we do to prevent that?

Yes, And I would say, I love that you have that open discussion and dialogue. It sounds like that happens after the connection is made with your team. You know, I have a question for you. You know, a lot of times when we develop leaders and we have these strong connections with them, I've heard this phrase once, friendly but not friends. Does that ring true for you? Or is that. Is that something that. Is that not true for how you operate with your leaders? Are you close, like, personally and your good personal friends? Or, like, are there any boundaries? I'm just curious about what that looks like.

I would say if anyone on my team needed something, I would drop whatever I was doing to go help them. But with that being said, do we hang out on the weekends and they're, you know, as close as people that I don't work with? No, they're not. But I would do anything for them. And I would like to think they would do the same for me if there was, you know, the time arose.

I'm so glad to hear you say that. You know, as you and I get to know each other more, too, like in my own PT practice and now with my other, other company, I have learned that There is. It's not less meaningful to keep boundaries in place around the employee relationships. I think if anything, it creates more of a successful, safe environment. Because I used to make the mistake, Katie. Like the first people I hired, I'm like, well, I've gotta be a good boss and they've all gotta be my best friends. And inherently everyone's rolling their eyes going, yeah, that's a dumb thing to do. But I honestly didn't know anything else. But what I got right was the connection part. What I didn't get right was the boundaries part. And so when my best friends would show up late and I'd be like, hey, you're late. They'd go, ah, whatever, Will. And then we'd all hang out on the weekend, weekends. And then corrections became personal. So I was surprised when I built my leadership team that was running my PT practice for me the way yours is doing for you. And we would take a bullet for each other, at least a non lethal bullet. And we weren't hanging out on the weekends. It was like 98, 95% of our discussions was work related. But that didn't make it less personal to me. It's just that our personal worlds had a boundary. And it sounds like you guys have navigated that beautifully. You guys love and care for each other and, and it's. When you're in there, you're. You're serving the greater good of what benefits everybody, which is that company.

Well, you know, and I think my background at the hospital I was in, one of the driving forces to leave and go out on my own was the terrible culture in the hospital outpatient that I was in. I just, like, I never felt like, okay, I need to be best friends with my peers. You know, okay, we can have a good conversation and have fun when we're at work. I, you know, it needs to be an environment that I'm happy to be there. I don't want to be miserable, of course, but, like, I don't need to hang out with you on the weekends, nor do I want to necessarily. But as long as we've got each other's back while we're there and the patient is at the forefront of what we're doing, then that's all there really needs to be.

Yeah, because there's, there's something so special about having a relationship you can trust. Trust is the foundational element of all these, you know, stories that we're telling because you trust that they're gonna get the job done, even if they're gonna make A mistake you trust because of the boundaries you've put in place that it will be worth it for everyone. You know, they trust you to make sure that you are committed to the future and that you're not gonna sell because you. You do trust them. It's a symbiotic relationship that is a magic formula for success. Clearly, as you've opened your third location.

I wouldn't have opened a third location if I didn't trust and know that they had my back because I physically can all on my own.

Hey, Rockstars. Are you having a challenging time recruiting, retaining, or training your people? Then, man, am I excited to tell you about the Rockstar Summit, guys. This is my personal event that we are launching on March 1st and 2nd. It is going to be two full days of nothing but workshops on how to solve recruiting, training, and retaining problems. It's very heavy on the recruiting side. We're going to show you where to find candidates that no one else is accessing so that you can get a leg up in the industry and grow the business that you deserve. So, again, that's March 1st and 2nd. Please go to www.rockstar-summit.com to learn all about the details. I will be there in person teaching some of the classes. But we have experts from across the country coming as well. You do not want to miss it. I hope to see you there. Is that your idea? Did you bring it to them? Or was it more like the group just discussing ways they could grow? And it came organically. Like, how did that concept come up to the team?

To me, I kind of got to the point. This is from feedback from my team, but it's like, at what point. How do you. How do you grow in leadership if you're one clinic, two clinics, like, what's. What's the opportunity to. I mean, I guess in most small businesses, how far can you go up the ladder before you're. You're itching to have more? And so to me, it just seemed like the natural course was, okay, if we open more offices, at some point I can have a regional director or, you know, like, you can create something like that for them.

Well, and it's true, because I say this in almost every episode. My audience, my rock stars are rolling their eyes probably, but, like, 88% of people leave a company because they don't see a future in it. And if they're not growing, then they leave. It's like, you can. You can. There's only. There's a small percentage of people that are very Content, making the same amount of money, doing the same kind of job with the occasional lifestyle bump in pay. It takes a very special leader to understand it's their job to grow the company so that there's opportunity for their team members to grow into, which is how we build retention. So if in, like, in your case, you're thinking about their future as a parallel with the company's future, and as you're growing the company's future with them in mind, everyone wins. I mean, Stephen Covey is like the foundational guy around this thing called a win win agreement. But I don't think business owners remember that it's really their job to spend time growing their company in terms of vision. And frankly, if they're trading full time or trading even a little bit, it's really hard to bake in the time to figure all that out.

Yeah, well. And you definitely want employees that want more, that want to be able to grow. You want somebody that's. That's chomping at the bit to have more responsibility. So.

Yeah, I used to tell. I love that you said that. One of the things I used to tell people when I was recruiting that was really useful is I would tell students in particular, I'm like, hey, listen, we're a growing company, but not in the way that maybe my competitors are that are just too busy. Like, what I want to do is grow around people. So if you want to be a leader or own your own practice or be specialized, that's how I want to grow. And people would go, oh, wow. And I'd say my job is to help you figure out what you want. And. And then I'll grow the company with that. As long as we're committed to each other's mutual financial and personal success. Right. Like that concept of I only want to bring people the people. Like you said, you only want to hire people that want to grow, man. That's the trick right there. Not every PT wants to. How do you find those? So word of mouth, you said, is a big way of doing that. But is there anything else you do to find those people who are growth oriented?

Well, I mean, yeah, having them in their rotations, you. It's better than an interview. Right. You're with them for three months, so you get to see personality, you get to see their shortcomings. Like you, you. It's great.

Yeah. You get to try before you buy.

Yeah. Other than that, I'm trying to think. Most of the other people we've had have come from online ads. You know, I Have a, a pretty. In our, in our HR software, I have a pretty good application that asks things that are not, you know, necessarily job related. Like what's your favorite book, what's your favorite movie and why? I feel like to some extent it helps me weed through and kind of see, you know, if someone's just going to answer like yeah, I don't read. Okay, well, sorry. Yeah, to the next.

Because you want someone who's a self starter. A leader. A leader is going to. Leaders learn, right?

Yes.

And so that sounds like you have some. What are the other qualifiers for people to work for you if they don't read, they're out. What else?

I always ask what's one thing that you have learned in the last week? And that could be anything from I learned how to use a jigsaw too. I learned how to paint my toenails. I don't know, whatever. Yeah, I want to know that they're stretching themselves and growing whether that is something socially or whatever.

Oh, that's cool. So this really is kind of like a thread that we're pulling on together in this conversation is that you look for people specifically who are looking to grow. Obviously rockstars hang out with rockstars in house. Referrals are always great if they're a great team, which you have. But then you qualify them especially when they're coming from online. And again, that's from a software that you built. Or is that like Indeed or how.

I mean we, we've been successful with Indeed in the past but I feel like lately it's kind of meh.

But the, the software company that we use has a whole, I don't know, recruiting aspect to it where it posts to all different platforms.

Monster, Indeed. All the above.

LinkedIn. Yeah. Yeah.

What's can, can you promote them? Like just because I know a lot of people listening are like who is that?

It's Gusto. I think a lot of people use use that.

So I use Gusto for two of my companies and I love it. So we get nothing out of saying that team. So if you're looking for a really robust P roll software, uh, I love Gusto. I think it's phenomenal. I have never used their recruiting functions though.

You know, it's funny, I, I posted, I just wanted to gauge for the new office PTA to see what you know, what was out in that area. And so I posted on Indeed for a little while. Got nothing pay paying for it. And then I posted it through Gusto and it go part of it Is goes to. Indeed. But I did it completely free and I got three applicants, and I'm like, what?

You're hitting me?

Oh, my gosh.

So everyone who's listening to this, who's using Gusto, start using it for your recruiting software. Because when you said, I get some leads from posting, I, you know, as you know, I. On the side, I do this, like, coaching company that helps pts hire. I always tell them, listen, you've got to have a really powerful job ad because it's the. It's kind of a summary for everything that you're doing in the job, and people are going to reference it, but it's not a good lead generator. But when you said, yeah, I get some. Some leads for my job ad, I'm like, whoa. So I've never worked with Gusto before. That's a really hot. Thank you for sharing that.

And it makes it easy. So when you're going, you can, you can set certain people so, like, the clinical director for the office we're hiring will be on the.

Hiring team. So you can put certain people in as the hiring team. They see when. When resumes are coming through, they can go in, they can make notes. They can. If that person is hired, you can, like, move them up in the process as they're progressing. So it just kind of streamlines it.

Yeah, I have been very happy with it. And they're very affordable as well, I guess. Meaning, my goodness, for you to get those three leads of the PTAs when you got nothing from. Indeed. Indeed, for me, has been the gold standard. LinkedIn starting to take over a lot of that area as well. But I wonder where Gusto got that, if that was like LinkedIn or some other software. But it doesn't matter because Gusto does it all, so you don't have to think about it.

Yeah.

Oh, my gosh. So how does this all translate over into the heat? I like kind of going from, like, you know, home and physical therapy and rehab over to the hino side of things. So what has that journey been like? Is it similar in terms of finding people? Do you ask the same questions? Is like, what does that look like in terms of finding leaders and talent and growing them in there? How are they similar and how is that different from home and physical therapy?

We obviously have a bigger pool to be able to pull from since the company's fully remote. I don't not trying to find somebody in central Florida to come into an office. So that. That certainly changes it. Yeah, I feel like you can get the best of the best. Because they may live in, you know, Phoenix, Arizona, even though, you know, the rest of their team lives in Texas. I mean, it's. That, that's definitely an advantage, I'm sure.

And so you have. How many employees do you guys have at Hino?

50, maybe.

Amazing. So you're probably all over the country.

Oh, yeah, yeah. We're like 20 states or something like that.

And so how do you develop culture in that environment when you have 50 people across, you know, the country? How does cultural get. Culture get grown when everyone doesn't, like, you go into the office for a reason, you go in there even though it's less convenient because you get fed by the culture and you feed into the culture. How do you do that remotely?

Yeah, that's. That is a challenge. So I, being a software company, I kind of lean to other software companies to fill the gaps of things that we need. And I met these, these two great guys in Salt Lake City and they have a little company company called Nectar. Have you heard of that?

I have heard of Nectar. If you guys. And by the way, you don't have to have a software company for Nectar. You could use Nectar inside a service company like your PT practice. Right?

Yeah, that's what I'm saying. I use it for actually. You do. We started using it for Hino and I was like, this is awesome.

Yes, I've heard. I've never used it myself, but I almost did once. I don't know why I didn't. But my friends who use it love Nectar, like straight up love it.

So I love it as an owner because I don't know what's going on with everybody and all the great things that the team is doing. And so someone will. Well, let me give you kind of a breakdown.

Yeah, I'll talk about it.

Yeah, you put in your all your core values, your mission statement, all of that, and then basically, employees can go on the platform and give shout outs to other team members as it pertains to a core value. Right. So far, let's say our core value is customer focused. So, you know, Amy can go out and say, hey, Tina, thank you so much for jumping on that call at the last minute to solve the issue with blah, blah, blah, blah, I'm going to give you 20 Nectar points. They can attach, like, cute emojis and gifs and like, all that stuff, so it makes it fun. And then the, the employees can take those points and they can buy pretty much anything on Amazon. They can get gift cards, they can donate it to a charity, they can get company swag and they use all those points for that.

That is so cool. So they get to choose what they want. And it becomes like, it reminds me of a kid. I remember going to the school fair and like running around and like generating tokens by participating in different things and then using those tokens to go buy books or stuffed animals and that kind of stuff. And it was cool about it was that like, it was like it was, it gamified it for me. And it sounds like that it does for your team. It sounds like it gamifies it for them. And then they have all this like, oh, what am I going to. Like what am I going to buy? They have all these things they spend. Every minute they spend kind of researching on Amazon or looking at company swag is a second that they're enjoying being a part of your team. It sounds like, yeah, for sure.

And I do, I do a few other things. So like during our onboarding for new hires, I have you ever gotten a sheet when your kid goes to like elementary school? And it's like my teacher's favorite things and it's like my favorite scent is lavender. My favorite color is yellow. My favorite restaurant is this. Right. So you know how to gift them when you're the parent? Yeah, like showing appreciation. So I have my staff, they all fill out that at the beginning. So I know their favorite color. I know you know where they like to eat, what their favorite snack is. So that, that helped a lot as far as like sending them something for their birthday or for a work anniversary or something like that in the beginning. But then as you get a lot of employees, it makes it really challenging to have to like.

Well, I was going to say that doesn't even sound. I mean, that'd be a full time job for you to be like, well, today we have two people and what do they like? And I mean, that just sounds like a lot of it sounds like that is useful. But as you get bigger, it must be challenging.

Yes, it is. But I also love that's, that's kind of how I keep things so personal with everybody as well. So I, I did set something up on nectar for birthdays and anniversaries. So they do get, you know, 100 bucks or something for their birthday, whatever it is, and so that they can pick out what they want. But like for Christmas this year, I sent out customized blankets with everybody's name on it in the colors that they had on their intake. So that took me like a really long Time.

But on, that's cool.

It just makes me feel good to be able to send them something that they appreciate. I don't know.

That is really, really cool. No, I love this. You've got me. I'm convinced. I'm going to go over and sign up for Nectar right now. I've got, as you know, I've got my core team at Virtual Rockstar, but then I now have hundreds of virtual assistants now and I'm trying to create culture and connection there. To have something automated is great. The only question I have for you is when you do like a Nectar birthday thing, do you, I'm sure, is there anything else that goes with it, like a card or I don't know, like how do you. Is there a way to personalize it? Because I do worry about it just being too automated where it's like a hundred dollars, boom, happy birthday. Or is there like somewhere like a message board where people chime in on it or.

I mean it basically goes on the message board. It will say, you know, happy Birthday, Kim. Here's X number of points to go celebrate. But you can leave comments under it, you know, so it's like a text thread almost.

So you can do your pts. I can see in the tech world they're always checking nectar, but how about your pts, are they always on it or.

Yeah, yeah, I mean they have an app so they'll get alerts and stuff like that too, so.

Oh my God. And plus they want to be on it because they don't know. Okay, see I will tell you this. When in my PT practice I was shocked that people my age and even younger weren't even, didn't even know how to check their own email. Like tech pts are the least tech savvy people I've ever met. Like we're very hands on musculoskeletal focus. So when it comes to tech, maybe not the best. So I was like, the whole time you're talking, like, I just, I could see where in a physical therapy practice where there'd be like a learning curve for people, but if they're getting bonused on it, they'll learn it because that's going to be an incredible incentive for them to want to learn how to do that. So then Katie, how do you, how do you manage like the nectar side of things versus like production bonuses? Like how do you. Do you. I'm sure you do some production bonuses as well. Like, I don't know, it's just, it seemed to me like there could be confusion for People listening, like, when do you use this, when do you use that, that kind of thing.

So nectar is limited per month. So each employee gets a certain amount of points that they can dole out per month. And it's not a lot. I mean, it might be 100 points, which is worth $10.

Oh, I see.

So it's not a lot. I mean, you can regulate what you want that to be and then managers get more. So it's just whatever you set it up to be.

And then as far as like production bonuses and stuff, that's where my managers are, the ones that are.

You know, keeping track of all of that. And that's submitted in a different way through payroll.

That makes a lot of sense. Production bonuses are for production. Cultural elements are nectar.

Yeah.

Wow. And then you're still there. So no wonder people love working at your physical therapy practice. That's really cool that you have all those elements baked in and all that. So what's your vision? I would love to hear, like, what do you see long term for both businesses? Businesses. Like what do you see, you know, down the road? Any, any bhags that you have, any ideas of what you want to create with the clinics?

I do want to continue to open. As long as I have a team that's wanting to be at the helm and, and help get things going, then I'll just continue to open more locations in areas that are needed. As far as the software company.

You know, it's so interesting because I don't think feel like we're a standard, typical software company because we started out and we ran things the way that we knew, which was opening a practice. Right. So we didn't take outside investment. We didn't, you know, we, we bootstrapped it from the very beginning and still have to this day.

Wow.

And so we're very.

Cautious and very methodical about what we do and how we do it because, you know, it's not somebody else's money that you're, you're playing with and you're, you're just experimenting and trying things like, no, this is the real deal. So I mean, it's as being a practice owner, I'm not going to go, you know, spend $10,000 on some male marketing campaign if I don't know that I'm going to see the ROI on it.

Wow. Very cool. So he knows. It sounds like the HINO vision is unique because your PT practice is based on who, not how. You've got like these great people you'll keep opening to give them Opportunities for growth. And that's your motivation when it comes to hino. You want to impact the industry, but you're really firm on not taking outside money. You're really firm on being strategic in how you scale, which has to be a little intimidating at times when you see different people in that space who are taking lots of money and getting really big and, you know, promoting themselves. So how do you stand out in that type of environment? Like how. What, what do you. What are you trusting on at HINO that's going to continue to help you grow in the way that you have?

Well, I'm. I'm in the trenches, just like our customers are. So, I mean, I think that is a big different, you know, differentiating factor with any of our competition is I, I know personally the trials and tribulations that all PT practice owners go through. And what we do at Hino is to try to streamline and make that stuff automated and easier and not logging into different places and not having these API connections that fail sometimes. So being able to really be able to build the product around the customer and not an investor and not somebody else that's telling you that, you know, this is what needs to happen. It comes directly from our clinics and the people that use it on a regular basis.

Yeah, and I, and I will say this not just because you're on the show, Katie, but I've had a number of my clients use hino. I literally have never heard a complaint ever. And I think that comes from the way that you're growing. I think there's plenty of space for a lot of different companies to be out there with what HINO does and for a lot of companies to do very well. But at the end of the day, I think having a loyal fan base is truly one of the most unique things about you guys, because there, you know, again, it's so personalized. And I think the fact that you're. You. I think two things that are really cool about HINO I like is that, number one, it was developed by a PT for your own practice and that, you know, and there's other companies that may have started, maybe one I can think of that kind of started that way, that evolved in a different way. But what the second piece that's really valuable is that you're not taking outside money and you're keeping true to that so that you keep everything super connected and people love it. And the people I've heard that love your software that I know are very critical. Like, they would be the first ones to Bash it. There's no hesitation. So I'm excited to see where Hino goes because in your case you're not out there like sticking this bhag going, we're going to get to 100 million and exit. What you're saying is we are going to continue to listen to our customers and create this around them. It's kind of the way you're doing your PT practice. I think your growth strategy is like a concept of who, not how, what's needed and wanted and building on that.

What'S the benefit of being a practice owner and hiring more pts, Right. So you can make more of an impact, more of a footprint in your community, help more patients. Right. And so that's how I look at Hino is like, okay, we can work with other owners who have other therapists and we're able to spread our reach to, you know, make the country healthier and more active and, and living their best life. That's, that's how I look at that. Because I know a lot of people, I think, struggle with, with the whole, how do you just step away from patient care if you really love what you do? And that's, that's why to me, I can make more of a difference that way.

Yeah, it's a mindset thing. I remember telling my coach, how do I, how am I going to break it to my team that I'm stepping out of patient care? And he said, will, you're, you're not going to say that. What you're gonna say is that you're stepping into leadership full time. And that blew my mind because that is literally the difference between a scarcity versus growth mindset. Right. The idea that I can only impact people if I touch them, you know, and like that I think is what you've been able to overcome. You mentioned it earlier. You've done so many transitions, right? Like you've transitioned out of being a healthcare provider into an entrepreneur to a multi location business, to a tech company. But I think you said it. I don't wanna put words in your mouth, but you said something along the lines that like transitioning out of the day to day patient care was one of the harder transitions, if not the hardest piece for you. Is that fair?

Oh, absolutely, yeah. And I do think you have some sense of guilt. Like you're, is my staff going to look at me like I'm not working as hard or I'm not like pulling my weight? Honestly, I feel like that you do think that, you know, even things I still have some of that, you know, you leave the office a little bit early, even if I'm going rushing home to be on a podcast with you, you know, they don't know that. And so maybe they're thinking, like, oh, I bet she's going to the spa now.

Right? Because that's what you would do. You know, it's so funny because, like. But it's true. That's. And it's mostly. And what I think is funny, Katie, is that I not only had that, but I think I would interact with my team in a way that, like, invited that. Because I'd be like, initially, before I had that mindset shift, I'd be like, well, guys, listen, I'm gonna go over here. But really, I'm gonna be doing these things and these things. And it was like, you didn't clean yourself. Why is he being guilty unless he's doing something else? Like, it was kind of like, why would he. Yeah. And versus, like, me just going away. And what I've learned is that when I was able to step away, and I'm sure you've experienced this, when their lives got better because I wasn't there and doing other things, they didn't care where I was because they knew in the end it benefited them, which, ironically, is all any of us really care about is how does it affect us.

So it's funny that you still have some of that guilt, because I've experienced that in a couple of my other companies that were not PT specific, but it was way easier treating. It's such, like, your soul in terms of how you do things. But, like, in my virtual assistant company, as I stepped more into these other things, I felt guilty. And I just remember, like, my wife going like, you know, no one absolutely cares that they don't see you. Right. Like, it's not like you being on the call really matters as long as they get their job done and everyone's getting paid. I'm like, yeah, I guess that's true. So without that mindset shift, you wouldn't have never been able to expand the way you're done, you've done or take HINO to this next level. So, yeah, Katie, I love this. I think this was a masterclass today on culture. I love that we were able to compare your two companies against each other from a recruiting perspective, a leadership development angle, but also just where you're going with it and how you're growing. It's so unique in that way. So, yeah. Any parting thoughts from you on what you would like to see in the Industry change or how you want to help change the industry.

Oh, gosh.

Let's quickly wrap up. What's your deepest thoughts about the industry? Is how I ended that.

Well, so I'm also. I've been on the Government Affairs Committee for the private practice section for a couple years now. So I get some. Yeah. So I have some pretty good insight. We just had a meeting last week about, you know, what we're looking at doing for next year and what we think. Because the administration changes. Right. So that's a big thing when it comes to lobbying for certain issues. So just trying to have a more strategic plan going into the new year with our lobbyists and everything. But to me, that is the single most important thing we need to do as a profession, from new grads that are just coming out to people who have been in the field for 40 years. But if everyone can get on the same page and fight for the same things, even if I'm not, let's say I'm not treating cash pay and you, you are, or you're doing. You're in a rural area and I'm not, you know, I'm doing telehealth and you're not. Who cares? Like, we're all in the same profession. I wish we could all just like, okay, let's just fight for whatever we can get a win at.

I love that. Well, I. It shows why you're doing all this, because, yes, it's for the patients and all this growth, but at the end of the day, shifting this profession is what matters most. So, Katie, thank you so much for taking time to be on the show today. I'm sure lots of people might have questions regarding leadership culture, Kino, your private practice. How do people get a hold of you if they want to talk to you?

Hmm. I can give you my email and people can reach out that way.

Okay. I'll put that in the show notes, but yeah, no, I appreciate you, Katie. Thank you so much for being on the show.

Thanks for having me. It was fun.

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