The #1 Leadership Mistake to Avoid with Jason Wambold

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How to avoid One of the greatest pitfalls in leadership is today's episode with Jason Wambold from Onus one. Guys, Jason is a physical therapy practice owner who's converted now into a B2B business. But we're hitting some really big concepts on this one. I kick off the interview with one of what is your biggest mistake? And I'm going to leave that be a secret until he explains it in just a minute. But it ties into this conversation about understanding our people. We talk about why we avoid our people when we've been burned and how to engage them in a way that eliminates the drama. Think about owning a business with no drama. How to build people without the confusion and drama. So we're going to hit these topics and then we're going to start tying into compensation models. It's going to be such a cool journey for you to hear about how we're going to stop this problem that all of us suffer from as leaders and owners and go into how we can reward our people in a way that keeps them in the business and engaged for the rest of their career. This is an amazing episode, Rockstars. Enjoy. All right, Jason, what's the worst mistake you've ever made as a leader?

The worst mistake I've ever made as a leader is assuming that everybody thinks the way I think.

Totally. Yeah, I can relate to that. But give it some meaning. Like, how does that show up for you and your business, exactly?

Well, the way it showed up for me and the way I became aware of it was after we instituted a 360 degree review process at our company, where I gathered my team together and created a safe space for them to provide feedback and ensured that they understood that I wanted to hear what I could be doing better. That was my primary concern. And the number one theme that came back was almost from everyone, was that the perception existed that I made an assumption that everyone was motivated the way I was motivated, thought the way I thought, and was interested in the same things that I was interested in. And that was a big light bulb moment for me to realize that that was not the case and that that's something that I should be thinking about as a leader.

Dude, that's so cool, though, that you created a space where you're like, hey, what do I stink at? And they actually felt safe enough to tell you. What? How did that feel like when they told you about that was, like, just helpful or was it a little bit humbling? I don't know. Like, what was it like to get that feedback, you know what it was.

It was empowering because a lot of times as leaders, you know, we're not really sure what our team is thinking. Sometimes we'll have employees that will tell us everything's great, everything's great, everything's great. I'm resigning and there's no, there's no warning. It comes out of left field, and we really can't get to the bottom of why they might be unhappy. So actually, honestly, the primary response that I had was gratitude to know that this was something that I could fix, that I could address, that they were comfortable telling me before it turned into something that could be a larger issue that I would have to address.

Yeah. So rockstar is what Jason's talking about right here, is really special because us as leaders, being able to get feedback from our teams is one of the most valuable tools that we can develop. Patrick Lencioni 5 dysfunctions of a team One of the core activities that they do on those retreats is they do a 360 feedback loop, but it's incredibly intimate and very direct. So people say the thing that is the best thing about working with you and the worst thing about working with you and that feedback. I had a similar moment in my life where I got teens telling me a number of things that I was doing that was causing problems for them, but it was done with such clarity and love. I think as owners, Jason, don't you think sometimes we avoid that feedback because we get it all the time in an unhealthy way, like when people quit or they're unhappy? Yeah. Have you experienced that side of things where people, I don't know, we were complaining behind the scenes and you had to deal with it?

Yes, absolutely.

So that was great that you took that feedback. How else did that show up, though, when you say, like, people that you don't. No one thinks the way that you do. So what are some specific examples of, like, how that showed up in their interactions with you?

Sure. Well, primarily it would show up in how I might be attempting to structure things in the organization, thinking that there would be this wonderful enthusiasm over it. For example, maybe putting together some sort of a bonus structure, thinking, surely everybody's going to be excited about this program, when in reality it could end up backfiring and be demotivating because the person that I was excited to roll it out to might not be motivated financially, they might be motivated in other ways. But I took a unilateral approach to motivation, thinking that it would be a one size fits all. Approach. And as it turns out, maybe it was beneficial for a handful of people, but the vast majority of them, it wasn't a good fit.

Yeah. And you're an entrepreneur. You're like a diamond in the rough compared to the public. You're going to be thinking along motivations from a place of, like, high risk tolerance, high reward. And so you're coming into their relationships, building it for you, thinking that's what you'd have for them. So what did you do beyond that? So how did you. How did you make an adjustment from that feedback?

Well, that feedback resulted in us making adjustments that were pretty much incorporated into every corner of the business. Some practical examples would be career paths, career trajectories. So if an organization has a leadership career trajectory and that's the only way that someone can be promoted or enhance their career, that's great for those people that are motivated that way or interested in that. But what about the individuals who are not, but still want to contribute to the organization just in a different way? So if you don't have other paths available, whether it be community outreach, whether it be clinical excellence, whether it be mentorship, if you don't have multiple paths, then essentially you're creating an environment that attracts one type of person, and then the organization is going to end up being weaker as a result because you're only attracting one type of individual.

Yeah, I love that. And it's so funny because that's today's topic. Today's topic is the single greatest consideration when communicating to our audience as leaders. Right. The single greatest consideration when communicating to our audience as leaders. And you. I love this because we were talking prior to this recording, you said, yeah, there's a leadership concept that's top of mind. So what is that consideration? Jason, what was that thing that you were talking about?

I think the consideration is knowing your people. You have to take initiative and take effort and take time to get to know what makes your people tick and how they're wired. There are so many books, there are so many surveys and resources that are available, and all of them are beneficial. But if we think about things like personality types, strengths of individuals, if we think about motivation, you know, that's another. Another big one, perfect example. You might want to reward someone for something that they've done. Some people prefer that reward to be delivered in private. Others prefer that it be in public, in front of others, in front of their peers. So if you have an individual who you don't fully understand how they're wired, and that individual would prefer not to be rewarded or thanked or recognized in public. And you bring that person up in front of the whole team and 20 of their peers are looking at them and you want to point out everything that they're doing great, that initiative could completely backfire, as opposed to taking that person out to lunch on an individual basis and letting them know how appreciative you are. Now, in my mind, I'm more wired externally in terms of external reward. That's just how I'm wired. But I have to remember that that might not be the way that individual is rewarded. So the goal is to connect with them, not to require them to function the way you function. And that's really the leadership principle that has been really important for me over the last 10, 15 years.

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It's very simple and very difficult at the same time. Asking questions. I mean, that's the most powerful tool that we have, asking questions. And as I mentioned a few minutes ago, and you did as well, there are obviously resources out there that are very beneficial. You can have your team take various assessments and you'll get a score and that sort of thing. I don't want to discount those because those are valuable. But I think what's equally valuable is asking questions and listening, especially if someone is not performing well. If someone is not performing well, our knee jerk reaction is, I'm going to go in there and I'm going to take care of it and I'm going to tell them what they're not doing and what they need to do differently. I think the better approach that I've learned over the last 10 to 15 years of my career is pull that person aside and ask them questions. How do you feel about your performance? How do you feel about being here? Tell us what you like or what you don't like. What would you change differently? And through asking those questions, you'll come to the realization of what the issue is without having to come in double barrels, just sort of blasting away at what you think they need. To do differently. And that would be a much better and more effective conversation anyway.

Well, and it's so much less accusatory. You know what I mean? Like, instead of, like, bringing up things in a different way. And hey, there's a problem here versus, like, hey, what is it about you? You're almost. You're being curious. You know, Ted Lasso. There's that whole episode at the darts where it's like, if we can just be curious before we do anything else, we set the stage for that. I know that when I get upset as a leader, by the way, Jason, when I'm emotionally, like, charged because something's happened, I've learned that as a key to, like, de stress, my life is to go, okay, well, listen, I'm upset because this person did it. Let's just go ask him or her about it. Hey, what was this? Hey, this happened last week. Can I just ask you about it? Like, what was that from your perspective when, you know, when someone, like, shows up 10 minutes late and I'm so mad, hey, man, you know, last week you were 10 minutes late. I just wanted to check in. Like, is everything okay? Like, what's going on in your side is, are you not happy here? And it's this really cool account. Like, I love that you said that. Because it's an accountability tool without being heavy. It's actually a loving way of holding a strong mirror to someone by just letting them know. Like, I want to. I'm curious about you and I want to understand you. So tell me about how that shifted after that. Like, how did it go towards the end? Were you able to master that? Do you feel? Did it help you?

You know, I still have not mastered it, and I'm not sure that anybody can ever say that they are the master of that skill set. And the reason I say that is it's not inherently intuitive for us to do that. You know, we all have fight or flight mechanisms. And so if someone is coming in late and we own the company, we perceive that as a threat to us personally because it's a brand issue, it's a quality of care issue where if that person starts late at the beginning of the day, they're backed up for the whole day. So there's sort of a knee jerk reaction for us to have an emotional response to that. And I think that's hardwired in our biology. The key is to overcome that and to disarm that and to do it exactly the way that you described will. So, no, I have definitely not mastered that. But I will say that what I have done is every time something like that comes up, take a deep breath and remind myself this is the best approach to take and it is going to require some restraint and self control on my part. But the other thing that I found too is that it does seem when you're having a sort of a crucial conversation, a clarity conversation, the individual that can keep the greatest control over their emotions tends to have the greatest success in guiding that conversation. So it really does seem to be the case that keeping emotion out of the conversation is one of the most effective tools. And that's something that I think all of us have to be very intentional about doing.

Yeah, man. Okay, so rockstars, listen. This is gold. As we look at how to regulate ourselves as leaders, as we look at increasing our impact and our efficiency, helping deal with mis emotion, the motion that's not useful. Obviously passion, love, all these different elements serve us, but frustration, anger, those aren't bad emotions. But acting in those those moments is what causes a mess that we have to clean up and so, so much so that many of us like me. I used to get to a point where I would go into avoidance. I would ignore the issue because I didn't know how to handle it. So as we get into that state of curious like this, be curious. They've done studies to show that when we conform questions we go into the frontal lobe, which almost shuts down the fight or flight response. It doesn't completely eliminate it, but it starts transitioning that mode over and at least from a perception perspective the people we're with. This is great for teenagers, by the way. I've learned that if we can stay in questions around what they're doing, it allows them to disarm the situation because it's not perceived as a threat for them. So they can access them their truth, true perspective logically and go into that and it's so. So Jason, going back to you, one of the things that's really amazed me about what you've built. You're a very successful private practice owner who's now transitioned into owning business, this business that is revolutionizing the industry in a way that I have been begging for. When I first heard about ONUS one, I was so excited because you create a solution for compensation models that allow PTs to make money in a way that really honors them with all their debt and all this different items, but in a way that keeps the win on the business end intact. So you have, I believe, and I'm not just saying this because you're on the show I brought you on because of this is that you've created a business where you've created this ultimate win win. So whether you're listening to this now as a future leader in healthcare, or whether you're a business owner, this model of compensation is so phenomenal. But it's a totally different way of thinking. Kind of going to our conversation, tell us the model and then how do you address that different way of thinking when you're implementing this with your clients?

At a very fundamental level, the model is simply this. Letting team members choose how they would like to be paid, having a menu of options that they can choose, and then to take it a step further, allowing them to change their plan over time. If we think about PTs, for example, in the United States, the vast majority of the treating therapists in the United states are under 40 years old. The vast majority of them are in their 30s. Many of them are not even in their 30s, in their late 20s. So if those of us who obviously have gotten past that point, if we think back to that point and we think about what our life was like, life is changing very quickly year to year to year. You might graduate and have five roommates, then one roommate, then living on your own, then you get a puppy, maybe you get married, maybe you want to buy your first house. So what you want out of your life and out of how you're compensated, how many hours you'd like to work or not work could be changing very quickly year over year. And so if you as an employer are offering choices and options, number one, but number two, letting your employees change their choice over time, it's a tremendous retention and recruitment tool, which is really what everybody's talking about. And then to the other part of your question, will, I think the, the other thing we need to remember is there's a lot of talk right now in our industry about how do we incentivize, how do we incentivize people to do X, whatever X is. That's the goal that we want them to get to. I think we gotta change how we're thinking about that rather than how do we get somebody to do more. Maybe what we need to be thinking about is how should we pay them according to what they're doing and not have a hidden agenda about trying to push them to get to a higher level of productivity. So many practices have a one size fits all approach. And the number one question in an interview is, how many patients am I expected to treat if I work here? And if you Give them the number they have in their mind, they're going to want to continue the conversation. If you don't, you've lost them. What if there's another way where you can say, well, we don't really have a number, we have a minimum. Of course, we can't have you show up and see three people a day and want to get paid, you know, a full salary. But within that, there is a framework that we set as an organization. But within the framework, there's some freedom. We're going to treat you like a doctor, like an adult, as opposed to working at a pizza shop where we tell you exactly what to work and when and how much to produce. So if we can treat our therapists like doctors, which so many of them would like to be treated, then along with that autonomy and flexibility comes some additional responsibility. That truly seems to be the win win from the employer employee relationship and.

The problems it solves. Man, like I'm telling you, the, the annual review where if I'm getting paid as a physical therapist in the traditional model, every year, I'm thinking I'm working harder, I've earned some increase in pay, but maybe my employer didn't understand. No fault to him or her. Not totally taking accountability away because it's always our fault as owners to some degree. But the idea that our industry doesn't educate us, right? So we're in this position of like meeting with our pts. We're maybe tapping out just to get them in the doors. A year later they're like, what's up with my raise? You're like, well, I can't even afford you now, so there's no way you're getting a raise and you have to deal with all that drama. So what do we typically do? We avoid the conversation until they get really burned out and they start looking elsewhere. Having empowered employees to understand how they can get paid as it ties to the company's growth, is the single most important retention factor beyond purpose, vision, values. If we can get the exchange, because remember the why rock stars remember the why we do things, the why we attract the right people has nothing to do with money. It's the why we're doing the purpose, the vision, where we're going, the values, what we stand for, the culture we create. This is always one of the single most important factors and is the most important retention factor. But right behind it, the what is the money? And if we have this, this like, arbitrary system of us trying to push more and more volume on them so that we can generate A weekend with our kids or, like, a little bit of money for a vacation. Heaven forbid. We are never going to win. Giving them the tools to empower them will eliminate all the drama on the back end. But there does seem to be a barrier of getting them to think that way, right, Jason? So this, I mean, look, the industry is going to tank if we don't change the way we think. And I don't. I'm very optimistic. I think the industry is going to thrive, I really do, because of guys like you, Jason. So my thought is there's this, like, you know, adoption phase of you trying to get people to think differently when they're in that early stage of, like, when you're implementing this new idea. I'm sure you've got two barriers. First, for the owner to see it, and they probably see it way easier than their team does because they're more entrepreneurial, hopefully. So how do you address, like, changing the way your clients think about money? Like, now that you've spelled it out, like, hey, yeah, you get paid for what you do, and it ties to profit, so both people win. How do you change the way they think?

Well, you're right. It is a fundamental shift in how we think as an entire industry. And we could have a whole other conversation on where this thought process came from. But what I can tell you is it's very, and I think we would all agree, very heavily entrenched in our profession. We tend to think differently than many other, most other autonomous healthcare providers when it relates to what exactly is our professional responsibility and under what circumstances do we get paid more? An orthopedic surgeon understands that if he or she wants to get paid more, do more rotator cuff repairs, that's how they're going to get paid more. There's no conversation about. To the, to the partners of the, of the orthopedic practice. I didn't leave last year. Can I have 15,000 more dollars? It's just part of their psyche. And yet for the average physical therapist, that's precisely what is part of the psyche. I didn't leave last year. Cost of living went up. Therefore, you should cover that for me as my employer. And if you don't, I'm looking elsewhere. Where did that come from? I don't know, and I'm not sure any of us knows for sure, although there's a lot of discussion and debate about that. So how do you change that? How do you address that? I think there are a couple points. The first is we have to be clear about what our intentions are as employers when we are evolving our compensation approach, we have to anticipate the knee jerk reaction that the average therapist will have. You're just trying to get me to see more patients. You're doing something unethical. You're incentivizing quantity of care, not quality of care. None of those under the model that we're talking about is true. And yet all of those are very commonly the knee jerk reaction that your average physical therapist will have. So just like anything else, it's education, number one, helping them understand the why. Why are we doing this? The reason we're doing this is because we think you're worth more than you're getting paid. The problem is we don't have wheelbarrows of money or a money tree in the backyard of the clinic. So we'd love to pay you $150,000 a year because you're doing something in the healthcare space that nobody else knows how to do. But nobody told Blue Cross and Blue Shield that you're worth that. And if someone did tell them, they don't care because every year they're reducing the amount that we're reimbursing. So what we're going to do is give you the opportunity to understand the connection between what you do in the clinic and what shows up in the, in your paycheck. And then we're going to eliminate the necessity for you to have to wait one year after the other after the other and ask for a 3% increase. Why shouldn't a new grad make $10,000 more than their peers? If they've figured out how to generate more revenue, why should they have to wait six years to get to that point? We don't think they should have to do that. So we're trying to create an opportunity for them to have more control and more autonomy over how they're paid.

Yeah, and it's not, it's such a mindset thing because, like, look, I, I've coached people in Alaska that they're supposed to see 40 visits a week and they're burning out at their third. They're only seeing 38, and they're burning out. Guys, listen, we, we will adapt to whatever stresses we have. The key is motivation and having their win tied to their effort. If we get out of this mindset and yeah, you're solving that problem of how we think about money and security, which is hysterical. If I get a salary, I've got security. You know, the security comes from control and having influence. If I, as a PT know how my effort relates in getting paid, then I can determine how much effort I put into things. Otherwise, the salary model we have is going to set it up for people to feel like they're burned out no matter what because they just. Everyone wants to do the bare minimum when they don't under. When there's no connection between my effort and my income, everyone. I'd say burnout goes away by 50% or more, even if it means doubling their efforts. Because that's what's funny. I was. I'm not proud of this, Jason. So rock stars, no judgment. I don't judge you rock stars, so don't judge me. But I totally. When I first came out of school, after a year, I went to go work for Nathan Shields, the pto Owners podcast. And I've talked about this on his show, but I didn't have anyone telling me he set up a compensation model that was just kind of like on a napkin, like, yeah, I'll pay you a base salary, but let's bonus you to some degree. And I didn't know what was ethical or not. And so I started seeing a hundred plus visits a week with me and a couple of texts and very quickly learned that wasn't right. And I made adjustments, but it didn't burn me out either. And what I've learned, when I incentivize my people correctly, burnout just seems to disappear because their effort is met with income. There's an exchange around it. And once they test goes well. And I'm guessing that's what's been the case for your clients, when people come in and they have their concerns, but when they start rolling with it, I'm guessing that's why it stays intact and why you're growing so fast.

That's very true. And you're absolutely right. Control is the antidote to burnout. That's really the key. And we all know people that work 30 hours a week that are totally burned out and are very unhappy what they're doing. And we know other people that work 50 hours a week that are so energized at the end of a long day, they're tired. But tired is different from burned out. Tired is not a bad thing. Tired means I put it all on the field today and I feel really good about what I did. So it's not about hours work. There's so much conversation about work, life, balance. And you're absolutely right, Will. If you go to the Pacific Northwest and you go into a clinic and say, guess what, guys? Everybody starting Tomorrow needs to see 10 patients a day. It's very likely, if that conversation occurred in Washington State, that you're going to get a tremendous amount of pushback from those therapists. They're going to say that's unethical. How could any therapist possibly do that?

Oh my gosh, you go to Buffalo.

New York, go into a clinic and say, in this clinic, guess what guys, everybody has to see 10 patients a day starting tomorrow. The therapist would literally come up and wrap both arms around you and give you a big hug and say, thank you, thank you, thank you. Because that's so different from what the expectation has been prior to that. So it's all related to our surroundings. And you're right, adapting to our environment.

Well, and I wanted to say a comment here. You know, listen, we have such a weird judgy culture of like, what's ethical and what's not ethical? Not getting paid what we're worth is the ultimate stand of unethicality. Like for me, I'm sick and tired of people saying X number of visits is unethical. Results is the only thing that matters. When I had a hundred visits a week and it was me busting my butt and I was getting paid for it. Well, my clients kept coming to their appointments. I had a 98% percentage of arrival. I had an incredible outcomes result. So don't tell me that more patience equals burnout and more patience equals unethical treatment. There is a point where both of those things are true, but stop trying to determine it. Like you're a student or a new grad or an owner and you think, you know, at the end of the day we can eliminate a lot of these problems and a lot of these like, gray areas and feelings of burnout when people can just get paid for what they're worth. If we got paid what we're worth and we can tie our production to our income, then all of a sudden we define the actual line of burnout. And that burnout point is well below, in my opinion, oftentimes what ethical treatment standards are. Now, of course that's not a blanket statement because if you're all Medicare federal payer, that's of course going to be different. But for the most part, these people in Alaska or other areas where they're seeing 30 something visits a week and burning out is the greatest proof of all that has very little to do with volume and everything to do with getting paid what we're worth and outcomes. So Jason, listen, this has been phenomenal. Onus one, tell us your company how they can get ahold of you to learn about the best way to compensate your people for retention.

Sure. Well, they can certainly email me directly. My email address is jwombold W A m B o L D at onus O n u S O N e.

And they could certainly check out our website as well, which is onus1.com I.

Get nothing if you guys go to him. I never take referrals on the show. If you go with people, I only bring people on that I validated myself. I have personally called people that have worked with Jason. I was people I care about had sent his company my way. So do not make the mistake of not working with him. He will make difference in your business. He's been there, done it and he can help you do the same. Jason, thank you so much for a wonderful show.

My pleasure. Will thanks for having me.

Thank you so much for taking the time to listen to today's episode. As a thank you, I have a gift in today's show Notes, there's a link for you to join the Stress Free PT newsletter. This is a comedy newsletter for anyone who works in health care. And of course we're going to have comedy bits. We're going to have inspirational stories, leadership bits. It's going to be a weekly newsletter later just to lighten your week to help you do what you love with more passion. So click that link below and join that newsletter and we'll see you in our next episode.