💵 Where to Spend Your Digital Marketing Dollars to Grow Your Medical Practice 💵

Welcome back, providers. Today's episode, man, is worth its weight in gold, and I'll tell you why. This video is actually worth about $20,000. I'll explain that in just a minute. And it's my privilege to introduce this expert because he is someone that I've known for the past five years. He has done wonders in helping healthcare providers grow their practices and enter into the digital age. So please welcome Dallin Harris from Karen Addictics. Hi, Dallin. How are you doing?

Doing great, Will.

How are you?

Oh, man, I'm doing so great. I'm so excited about today's video. I need to tell the audience quickly. Well, why don't you tell them? Why do I see so much value in this video financially for the listeners?

Yeah. So at carenetic, our goal is to make healthcare providers look good online. We've been building websites for over a decade and tons of them for providers and provider groups of all different shapes and sizes. And what we're going to be sharing today is some of the research we've done a from having built so many of those sites. But we've actually done some deliberate research where we went out and surveyed over 1,000 patients across the country and asked them what sorts of things they expect to see from their provider's website. And we've compiled all of that study. We've spent tens of thousands of dollars doing this, and we compiled all of that data into a short presentation we're going to be reviewing and discussing here that we hope will help answer the question, how should I allocate my marketing dollars? We know that marketing dollars are precious and almost sacred to a provider. We don't ever want to be wasting money on things that aren't going to generate a return on investment. So this presentation should be a big part of that answer. How should I spend my marketing dollars?

And I just want to say, first of all, thank you for sharing it. I think that's incredibly generous. I don't know in my company, if I had spent that much money gathering data, if I'd be so free and sharing it. But as you know, our listeners are entrepreneurial.

Not all of them are.

But the vast majority of the people tuning into this are people who want to make a bigger impact in their profession. And so either they're future entrepreneurs or they're currently business owners who want to grow. So I can't thank you enough for creating some time to be with us, Dallin. So let's kick right into it. What is some of the bigger takeaways? I know there's too much information for us to be able to go over in just one video. But, man, I would love to hear what some of your bigger takeaways are, and we'll get into kind of what that means a little bit later. But just to preface it again, I think for our listeners to understand this is what patients want in terms of their providers in a digital space, Right?

Yep, exactly. And I'll. And I'll just underscore what you said there as well. You know, why did we do it? It's exactly for that same reason. We see providers out there working day in and day out, not only to provide great medical care, but also to run a business. And as a business owner, I can appreciate the hustle that that is. I don't even have a provider load on top of that. But we see what folks are doing. We see how they're trying to change lives. And this is the sort of research that typically only very large health systems and large companies have access to. So we wanted to just bring that to the folks who are on the front lines fighting every day, so grateful for the opportunity.

Yeah, you're like a healthcare provider for.

Healthcare providers in the digital space. Like, you're caring for their business while they care for their patients.

All right, that's what we try to do. You're exactly right.

All right, let's jump on in.

Okay, so I'm going to share my screen here, and I've got a few slides prepared that I hope will illuminate this for us. So here we go.

So, like I said, the study was on patient online experience, meaning what is a patient experience as they're. As they're looking for a provider already talked a little bit about me and who I am and that we're answering this question. How should providers allocate their digital marketing budgets? So, you know, normally we would do this in like a webinar format, a longer version. But we're going to hit kind of the highlights today. I'm going to talk about how the survey was conducted because it's important to have that context. I'll talk about this concept of attitudinal segmentation, which is a big marketing word that means something. I'll explain what that is and why that's central to this study. We'll talk about some key insights we got away from it. And then I'd love to just have a discussion with you, Will, about, you know, what stands out to you as a provider and as someone who represents other providers. You know, what, what kind of Your takeaways are. See how that compares with what I saw. Sound good?

Love it.

Okay, so the survey itself was completed in October of 2020, so just a couple months old here. Very fresh data. Over 1000 participants from all across the United States. We gave them 50 questions about their patient online experience. Where did you look for your provider? What did you take into consideration? What device did you use? Those kinds of things. We used a top research firm to help us do this.

And as far as I know, there's no study like it. So first, I want to give the context on this concept of attitudinal segmentation.

If you start digging into marketing, one of the concepts you'll run into very quickly is this idea of segmenting your audience. Right. And traditionally that's been like a demographic segmentation. What do 40 year olds want from my practice as opposed to what 18 year olds want from my practice? What do men want from it versus what do women want? And you try to kind of tailor your messaging to those demographics. Well, if you think about it, demographic is just kind of a lame way to slice and dice your audience. It's the. It's kind of been the best we've had. But what a lot of researchers and a lot of marketers are now coming around to is this idea that I don't buy something just because of my age or because of my gender. I buy it more because of my attitude toward that thing. So if you take for example, buying a car, do 30 year olds buy different cars than 50 year olds? Yeah, maybe there's some correlation there, but it would be much more useful to look at their attitude. Some see a car as a status symbol and that's their world. Some see it as value. They just want the most bang for their buck. Right. Some are all about safety and reliability. And those beliefs or those attitudes could span all of the age ranges, gender, location. It doesn't really matter what your demographics are. It matters how you feel about it. But if you think about it as a marketer or as a communicator, that matters a ton to how I'm going to speak to that person. If I know that they're a status symbol buyer, then I'm going to highlight the status symbol aspects of the car as opposed to something else. So we can apply that same model and thinking to healthcare to say, what is a patient's attitude towards healthcare providers that changes the way that we want to talk to them.

Man, that's huge. If I can just say quickly. That blew my mind. I never thought about researching things based off of that. But it does make so much sense when we're trying to make a connection with our patients to being able to stand where they're at emotionally and how they view things from, like, their, their perspective, less about their age. Yes, I can see the inherent value in that.

That's awesome.

So. So let me show you what we uncovered and see if this jives with what you've seen as a provider. The first group that we found, we call the researchers. And what, what characterizes a researcher is these more than most. Everyone kind of agrees with these statements, but more than most researchers say it's important to learn about a healthcare provider's background before choosing them. I think finding a new doctor is frustrating. I often do my own research about my health and treatment options and, you know, on and on. So these are the folks who just, they want to know everything. They want to read every word of your website, every review you've got. They want to know exactly what the possible outcomes are, the procedure, procedures, and who, you know, who vouches for you and all of that. They're the researcher. Right. The second group we found was the, what we call the onliner. Now, the onliner also uses the Internet, but they use it for a different reason. These folks are all about convenience. Things like, I want to access services like appointment scheduling and bill pay without having to make a phone call. I'm interested in using technology like smartphones and apps to access my healthcare. I believe the Internet can help me make better choices. Again, everyone agrees with these statements, and you can, you can see that here on the slide. But the onliners, much more than most, really feel this way. Right. So you can see as we start to interface with them, how we would highlight those aspects of our practice. The third group is the generics. The generics are frankly a little disengaged in their, in their health care. They say things like, I rely heavily on the opinion of family and friends. Cost isn't really a factor. I think it's more important to be seen by a doctor quickly than it is to be seen by any particular doctor. You know, and my favorite, at the bottom, the emergency room is a good resource for medical care, even if it's not an emergency. Right. Yeah. These are the folks that just wait till it's a problem and then they try to deal with it then. And they're not doing the research. They're not really going online. They're just. That's why we called it generic. They're kind of just, who can Help me done. Right. But that is a segment of the population. We have to be aware of that as we're communicating and making our strategies. The last group is the trusters. So the trusters say, I want a friendly provider or relationship with my healthcare provider. I typically follow my doctor's recommendations. Once I have a relationship with a provider, I'm very unlikely to switch. And they have these beliefs that doctors are really trying to help and I'm going to work hard to stay healthy. Again, everyone agrees with those things, but more than most, the trusters are kind of standing out in that category. So what we see as far as the segment distribution is almost uniform. 22% of the thousand we surveyed are researchers, 24% were onliners, 29% were generics, and 25% were trusters.

And so that in and of itself is an insight, but I think the other insight is, you know, in terms of who we can actually impact and reach through digital channels, it's going to be more the researchers and the onliners because there's some, you know, a lot of providers say, well, I don't think people look at my website and it's like, that's true. But half of this segment probably doesn't or doesn't much, but there is a segment that does and it's a growing segment and I think it's important to understand that and kind of how to, how to reach them.

You know, I think there's a lot of, I coach a lot of practice owners, not just physical therapists, but MDs. And what I hear oftentimes from certain owners is that like, oh, my patients are so old they don't get online and that kind of thing. But this research really debunks that because ultimately there is a percentage of the segment that won't maybe has nothing to do with age. It has more to do with their value system. And at the end of the day when you look at it, they're like, yeah, at least half we have to get to through that online mechanism.

That's right. And I won't go into this too much just in the interest of time, but it was interesting as we started digging in, you know, how do these segments overlap on traditional demographics? Trusters do tend to be a little older. 61% of them were 70 years or older. But look, there's trusters throughout all the, even down to the 20, 18, 19 year olds, some percentage of them are trusters. Right. And the onliners, you would think, is typically a young audience thing. But look at that, 25% of our onliners were 70 years or older.

Crazy.

So it really isn't an age thing? No, it's, it's an attitude thing. Gender wise, do you want to take a guess whether men or women are more likely to be generics?

You know, in today's world? I don't want to take a stance on any of that.

Just kidding.

Like what? Just give me the data.

How to break down what the research.

Shows 59% of the generics were men, which is just kind of funny. I've seen that sentiment, but really other than that, I mean, there wasn't much. Income wise, it's all across the board. Doesn't matter how much money you make, doesn't matter your educational background.

Really, these, we call them the respondent characteristics. It doesn't matter. And that's why I think this attitudinal segmentation is so powerful.

Man, it's amazing. Honestly, it's blowing my mind because we have these postulates.

A postulate is a fixed idea based on opinion that has no truth to it. Research is what changes that information leads to inspiration. And how important would that be for a marketing effort to have the right information versus just gut feeling? And maybe these incorrect previously done demographic breakdowns by age because that's 1,000%.

And really us as marketing professionals, it's no different. I mean, I'm sure as a provider you come across these articles, oh, you need to be doing SEO. Oh, you need to be doing social media. And it's easy to get caught up in that hype because someone's telling us that. But when we did actual research and we actually talked to patients and found out, okay, how big a deal is this Facebook thing really? How much stock do you put into it? That was the point of this whole research, is that we could have first party validated, you know, and do we still make mistakes? Of course. But it's guided by real. It's almost like anti fake news or something. It's the opposite of fake news. It's like this is, this is really what people have said and done. So.

Other things I think are interesting. So yeah, we talked about this. Focus on your researchers and your onliners. That's where your best return on investment is for your digital marketing efforts. As far as influencing patients, a lot of this was interesting. And for the rest of the study, I'm going to be mostly focusing on researchers and onliners. What do they think is important in choosing a provider? You can see here on the graph the more important things. Recommendations from other medical professionals. Still very important to this group. Board certifications they hold years in practice. How quickly I can get into CM is still a factor. But look at this. More important than that is the information on their website.

The kind of shameless plug I have here is you can't change your years in practice. You can kind of change recommendations from other medical professionals. But the first real thing that you can really control and impact information on your website and whether it makes it easy to find what I'm looking for. These are huge factors to this group, these researchers and these onliners when they make their decision. Right? Yeah.

I got to just say, like, I hope everyone in the audience heard what you just said.

What's on your website has more weight.

Than how quickly they can get in.

And similar, comparable weight to the years of practice. It's just a little bit below, if I'm reading this right, 4.9 and 5.0 is the board certifications they hold. What you have on your website is almost as important as the degrees you get.

Like, I'm kind of lighting up a little bit because our medical people are.

All about their degrees. It's like, oh, I got to get my Alphabet soup after my name. I've got to make sure I have this and that. And that is important. I'm not minimizing that. But in the digital world, if you don't have that in the right information online, you're losing the people who are the researchers and the onliners. That's crazy.

Well, and look at this further behind that. Recommendations of family and friends. The website's more important than recommendations of family and friends. Are you kidding?

So I care less about what my mom tells me and I care more about what I read on their website.

That's right. You know, and the things that don't matter, just for the record, you know, age, gender. Actually, whether or not I can make appointments online, although they want. That is not an important factor in choosing your provider. For the researchers, the onliners, it's a little bit different story. But I know a lot of providers are tripped up. It's hard. It's hard to get the tech right to be able to offer online appointment scheduling. Apparently that's not a decision factor, although they want it. Medical school, where they got their degree, not super important. Whether or not they offer a way to discuss things like online chat, like, those things are growing, but it wasn't. It didn't rank nearly as highly as website did.

We went into trends, you know, we asked about how has it changed last year to this year? So we could see some of that. But, but really the insight there, I hope people are taking away is that the website is either number one or number two of the things that we can control, followed closely by web experience and that it's trending upwards. So.

It'S a great place to spend money in most cases.

Digging deeper, you know, I, we could, and anyone who wants to have a deeper conversation about this would be happy to have it. But we looked into, you know, what social media platforms are you using, what device. 76% of onliners say that a smartphone is the main way that they access the Internet, which checks out with what we've seen. Certainly when you're designing your website, you want to make sure it's mobile friendly first. And if it happens to work on desktop computers, that's okay, you know, that's a plus. But smartphones, laptops are your main thing.

We looked at the research journey. When someone's setting out to choose a healthcare provider, first thing they do is ask a medical provider. Typically that's the first stop.

Family members or friends I know in real life. And then they're looking at Google or similar search engines. I think this is important. So a minute ago we were weighing what makes your ultimate decision. Right now we're looking at what's their journey to get there.

I see.

And what we see is that they actually look you up on Google.

Your ratings and reviews before even your website, which kind of makes sense. People know that your website could be biased, so they're going to put a lot more stock into review sites and things like that, which if you haven't been paying attention to your review sites might only have the negative things on there because that's, you know, typically the people who care enough to do something are the upset customers who want to go and leave you a one star review. So we see a lot of providers with a way unfair share of negative reviews because they've never done anything to cultivate the positive ones. So does that make sense?

Yeah, totally. As I look at the review piece, I realize the power of that and again, I think the reviews, I would be willing to bet that really high reviews and at least decent websites go hand in hand because if someone looks at their, for me at least if I look at a good review and I do that first, whether it's food or doctors, I look at the reviews and then I go deeper. The next step for me is their website. So I'm imagining that like people who have good reviews are probably providers who have good websites.

Sure.

Something to back up the reviews. So it's like I get the initial lead generation excitement over seeing all these positive reviews. And then I click on the website and if it's not exciting, it's probably not something I'd want to continue with, but it is, it makes a lot of sense. We're going to always start with those reviews. At least that's how I operate.

Yep, that's right. So two things I want to say about that. One is we have to solicit good reviews. And the way we do that is survey everyone. Hey, how was your experience today? And if someone gives me five stars, I'm saying that's great. Would you mind sharing it? Here's, you know, give them very easy way to do that. And if they give me two stars, then it's like, maybe I won't point you to the review site. Maybe I'll just ask what went wrong. Or maybe you can give me some feedback, you know, and try to really incentivize folks to share those higher quality reviews. The other thing I would say, think of your website as almost like your waiting room or even like a digital version of you. You know, when you walk into a provider's office and the waiting room is nice and it looks comfortable and people are there smiling and it's kind of just this, like, it's this representation of the brand. It's like I know in my head that a waiting room has nothing to do with the actual quality of care. I know that even the front office staff has nothing to do with how good the doctor is. But I'm human and I make those kinds of jumps and judgments. Well, the same thing happens with your website. When people see your website, it's often the very first thing they saw. And it sets a tone, it sets a feeling that you either have to work to live up to or you have to work to overcome. If it was a bad feeling. It's really this kind of digital representation of your practice. Yeah.

You know, what's interesting about what you said about in that regard is that, you know, honestly, I'm not an expert by any means in the digital space. That's why I'm so excited to talk to you. I am an expert in the physical space. When I go in to consult with the MD or a PT or whoever it is that I'm consulting with and I go into their private practice, that's the very first thing I always do. Ray Kroc McDonald's used to talk to his partners about walking around, making sure it's clean. In a medical facility, especially a private practice, the first thing I do is look at the cleanliness. The second thing is I interact with that front desk and I'm at a point where within seconds I'll understand how that front desk works to the very point you're making. Because how many times have we ever gone to an amazing physician, like, we know that he or she is amazing. And you get so underwhelmed by the front desk. The person doesn't make eye contact. They call you with very little energy. They don't even see how your day's going. You can tell, they're just, it's like you're a board certified genius in the field of medicine that you're at and your front desk makes me feel like I don't even want to be there. So how similar is our website in the digital space like you're describing? You go in there and it's like, oh man, if they're the best, can't they afford a decent web developer?

Messaging is so important.

Yeah. And you see the opposite too, where it's maybe one of your competitors who isn't as, as capable and competent as you are, isn't practicing maybe even very sound medicine. And yet they've got a great website and they've got great marketing and they're growing like crazy. And I think that's part of like, what we take on as our mission is it's frustrating to see these terrific providers who worked so hard to be at the top of their field not get their fair share of the credibility because this almost unfair online experience that they maybe don't fully understand is kind of painting them in a certain light.

Yeah, and that's what I always. That's one of the reasons I wanted to have you on as our first guest in this new segment, because for me, I've known your journey. You're so passionate about helping healthcare providers. You know, in your previous, you know, world, you've created websites for large brands. The NFL like large brands. And you know, you switched over and have focused through Care Netics into the healthcare space. Specifically, can you tell viewers why did you make such a specific intentional move like that?

That's a great question. Because yes, we did do websites for very large brands and a bunch of different industries. I've got some cool stories and experiences. The super bowl that you mentioned, American Express, AT&T, these are brands that marketers dream to be able to work on. But I just.

In that mix of hundreds of websites that we did, there were a handful of medical Providers. And we always just felt a special connection to the mission they were doing. I really identified with them as entrepreneurs. Obviously, the healthcare aspect of it that we almost joke in our office sometimes, it's like, well, it's a website. We're not saving lives, but doctors are, or improving lives. And so it was kind of the shift to realize.

Who really needs this, who could we really help couple that with? And I don't mean this to sound demeaning, but I think healthcare as a whole is a good five to 10 years behind on a lot of these marketing and technology fronts. And it just felt like, man, we could take what we know and really help this industry and really help these men and women who are working so hard to make a difference, giving them the tools that they need to be successful. Wow.

Well, thank you for sharing that. I think it'd be important for people to know why you're investing so much money and time into helping healthcare providers develop their digital presence. You know, it's funny because in my world I get from my people all the time now, like, hey, can you help me set up some Google Ads? And that kind of stuff? And I really can't help them, but what I can do is introduce them to people like you.

Sure.

So I don't want to, I don't want to get off topic, but I really do at some point want to have hear from you, like, on how people can reach out to you and all that kind of stuff. So continue. Let's continue in this vein and then we'll get to that point.

Okay, so there's a bunch of other stuff we looked at, you know, online elements, you know, what specifically needs to be on your website. You know, the long and the short of that is things like patient portals and making it easy to find what people are looking for are more important. Things like if they have articles or blog posts written by the doctor are less important. Things like photographs of the building or the admin staff or the waiting areas is less important. They want to see treatment costs. That's a big one and that's a controversial one, but people want to know what, what it's going to cost.

Ability to make schedule appointments online. Those tend to be the things they look more for.

And I'm going over this super quickly, but again, happy to share in depth with others who want to know more. But we actually took a handful, eight or nine websites and showed them to people we were surveying. And we said, you know, based on seeing this alone, how likely would you be to want to explore Further, with this particular provider and it was very interesting to see some of the things, you know, pictures of people and lifestyle and emotion, those kinds of things perform well. This was kind of funny, this integrated podiatry clinic, poor podiatry clinic, they got the lowest score. And when we started looking into the why, it was because it has a picture of feet on it and grossed out by feet.

You could have saved yourself time and called me. I looked at that thumbnail on the bottom, like, why is it so low? I'm like, ooh, gross feet.

And I'm a healthcare provider. Like, they don't gross me out nearly as much as my wife.

And I'm not in that category where feet like weirdly gross me out. But seeing the comments, there's a very clear segment of people that are just like, oh, no. So that and, you know, a thousand other little one liners we got from the one sentence response on this has kind of helped us know what to include on a website. So.

You know, the fourth insight there, we didn't go too much into this, but you want to reach your patients on their smartphone for sure. YouTube, Facebook and Instagram are your best platforms. More than LinkedIn, more than Twitter. These are the ones that are, that are big and growing. You want to focus on producing good written information that's easy to find, more so than heavy amounts of video and media and pictures. That stuff's important and interesting, but really I think what the respondents are telling us is just keep the information out there, make it easy for me to find. That's the most important piece. And the other insight is think beyond website. It's not just your website. You got to think about your web presence. How do my reviews look? How do you know? If someone found me on one of the social networks, what would I look like there? It's more than just your simple.com that folks care about. So in summary, think about researchers, onlineers, generics and trusters. Focus on the researchers and the onliners. You know, website tends to be number one or number two of the things we can control. Reach them on smartphones with good written information that's easy to find. And think beyond website to web presence.

Wow. So if someone's listening to this, and.

I'm sure anyone who owns a business.

Who'S taking the time to listen to this and watch this, they're going to be thinking, yeah, I don't have anything close to that. Honestly, like it may.

The vast majority of healthcare providers I.

Know work with templated type of services. Like this is a Very customizable, like heavily researched product that you provide. And before we go any further, I want to make it crystal clear to anyone watching and listening that I do not have a financial stake in this at all. This segment is purely driven by me wanting to find the best of the best to make it easier for people to increase their impact, their income and their freedom. And in a digital space, you're the guy when it comes to this stuff. So let's say I'm not. I'm that PT owner or a doctor who owns a private practice or specialist and I'm just like, yeah, my online presence is.

Isn't this.

It doesn't contain this type of information.

I'll put your information below.

But how would they get ahold of you?

Is it. Was it email? What's the best way to get ahold of you?

Yeah, so, so we're CareneticDigital.com is our website and anyone here is free to reach out to me directly. I'm Dallin D A L L I n@careneticdigital.com Happy to hop on a call and walk you through what we've learned and found.

To your point, Will, and to what I said earlier, I'm in a similar boat. Obviously I have a business. I want to provide these services. I believe they can add value for people. But my primary mission is to help you look better online. So even if it's just a phone call to give you some advice and to help you and point you in the right direction, even if it's not services my firm necessarily can do, I'm happy to do that as kind of my give back and my.

Good intentions for the industry.

And I would say let's find the solution that makes sense for you that's going to get you return on investment. Some practices are at a place where they can spend tens of thousands of dollars doing their own research and their own custom sites and all these complex integrations. Others just have a few thousand dollars to spend and we can help them too. I think the important thing is that we not shut the whole thing off as just too overwhelming or too expensive and start making small steps toward improving it. I think it. Well, I see it regularly surprise people. How much? Just a few. A few good tips and some nudge in the right direction can help them to at least start to capitalize on some of this opportunity. And that's what I would offer to any of these visitors as well.

Man, that's awesome. And I know a lot about the.

Cost of websites So I recommend to anyone listening, if you're even curious, reach out to Dallin for this digital breakthrough analysis. Obviously I can vouch that he won't.

Try to upsell and I promise that.

If you end up wanting to work.

With him, that's going to be the.

Best bang for your buck. In the different companies that I've owned over the last 15 years, whenever we put together a website, the least expensive ones that I've seen them come across from good companies, from really good companies, you know, we're talking 20, $30,000, right. And so that's why so many healthcare providers go to the, to someone who just generically throws something up for 2 to 5,000. And what you're saying is if that's.

All you have in a budget, you're.

Going to be able to leverage even helping those people get some maximum value.

Out of what they have.

So don't let the budget piece turn that down because I know you are very financially conscious as you bring on these healthcare providers.

Man, I love it. So if I was wanting to move forward with you, all I will do.

Is I will put all of your information down in the link in the description below. If you are watching this on YouTube and if you are listening to this on the podcast, by all means reach out and re listen to that piece. So I will put it in the notes there as well. But man, I can't thank you enough. Is there anything else that you would like to say to these healthcare professionals.

Before we wrap things up?

Just to say good on you. I mean we got into this industry because we're so proud of you and what you're doing and the hard fight you have both as a healthcare provider but also as an entrepreneur. We know there are hard days, many hard days in that and we just our hats off to you and any way that we can support you, we want to do that. And thank you for your time.

Dallin, you are the best. Honestly, you have got one of the best hearts of any human being I have ever known.

And I am not saying that an exaggeration. So listen. Anyone listening as we look forward in developing our practices or if we want to even develop our personal brands, or if we just want to provide care in someone else's business. Understanding healthcare in the digital space is going to be vital for us as we grow, as we learn how to better message in this digital world, we're going to be able to reach the patients and help take away the confusion and fear that they have in making the best choice. So you have a position to be in.

Either you can let your the different.

People who are competing against you put a better message out there and provide less care, or you can create the message in the right way so that all those people who are looking for you can find you so that you can serve them. And ultimately we know that will help you in the end. So thanks again for watching Dallin. Thanks again for being here. Until next time, thank you.