Lori & Zach Gottlieb on Supporting Mental Health in Teen Boys | The Man Enough Podcast
In this Man Enough podcast episode, hosts Jamie Heath and Liz Plank interview therapist Lori Gottlieb and her son Zach Gottlieb about the mental health challenges facing teenage boys and how masculinity, vulnerability, and emotional fluency can be nurtured. The conversation begins with a discussion of the appeal of toxic masculinity figures like Andrew Tate and the cultural messages that equate power with dominance. Lori and Zach describe how boys are often taught to suppress emotions, leading to shame and a lack of resilience. They share personal anecdotes from therapy sessions, coaching, and family life that illustrate how boys can be encouraged to sit with discomfort, express feelings, and develop agency. The hosts explore the role of fathers and male role models, emphasizing the importance of a “village of men” and intentional mentorship. Practical advice is offered for parents: treat boys as capable conversational partners, avoid judgment, use simple prompts like “tell me more,” and create safe spaces for vulnerability. The episode also touches on gendered parenting differences, the impact of over‑protective or punitive approaches, and the need for balanced, authentic relationships that allow boys to feel whole and authentic. The discussion concludes with each guest defining what it means to be “man enough,” highlighting authenticity, self‑knowledge, and the ability to set boundaries while maintaining genuine connections.
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Is Andrew Tate cool?
Like, is there a majority of boys that you know, just anecdotally speaking, who are listening to him?
They might like say, oh yeah, that's crazy. But in reality, they have a maybe a more misogynistic view of women.
Topics.
Yeah.
What are the things that draw them in?
Like he's even said, like, you know, like all men have power, but like women only get power from their looks and things like that. And I think for a lot of guys, that's very appealing. Like, it's like, wow, like I'm powerful.
Being man enough. What does that What does that mean?
It's really manly to mess up, admit you're wrong, and then grow.
I couldn't accept that I was evil. So maybe I'm broken, but those broken things can be corrected. Intimacy between a father and a son is me just wanting to, like, put my head in your lap. I love you, son. You haven't called me a benevolent sexist, but my experience is women are better.
Even if it's a positive, it's still not equality. I don't blame men for that.
I just blame the system.
This is Man Enough.
Welcome, welcome. We are back again at the Man Enough Podcast. You got Jamie Heath here.
Liz Plank.
We got no Justin.
No Justin.
We miss Justin. We do. But he's here with us in spirit. Hi, Liz.
Hey.
Can you just smile really? Just stay there for a minute. Look at that smile. It's good to see you.
Good to see you too.
You excited to do another round of discussion?
Always.
Are you sick of me yet?
No, never. I will never. I have the most fun. We have fun together.
We do.
We do.
We're playful, where we go deep.
Well, you know, look, for those of you who don't know what we do, Liz, just give them a soundbite. What do we do?
Well, this podcast is called Man Enough, and it's all about having conversations around gender. Like, no matter what, you know, we obviously love to talk about masculinity because there's a dearth of conversations around manhood and what it means to be a man in this current wacky world that we live in right now. But just gender in general and how we, how we handle the life that we, the world that we live in.
To add to what you're saying is there are so many young boys and men, of course, who have such an amazing way to contribute to society in ways that oftentimes they have not felt that they can do in a way other than being brute strength and being the stereotypical man.
It was really amazing that I think that maybe it's a little more comfortable to, like, write into something than to talk directly to someone. And And I think that that's a start too, that even if they can open up that way, it might be a start of maybe helping them to open up in their actual relationships in real life.
I love that.
And are you— oh, sorry, go ahead.
I was just going to say, I've also noticed that like most of the DMs I get, because it's like you see the profile, it's permanent, you know, like those are from girls. Like I get a lot of DMs mostly from girls.
I'm sure.
But it's just like, that's— That's sadly the way it is, but trying to, you know, change that. But what's nice is that, like, when I do a speaking event, all of guys, like, maybe at the end, like, when their friends leave, like, one or two will maybe come up to me and be like, wow, like, I noticed toxic masculinity in my own life. And this was so helpful to see. Or maybe, like, someone will anonymously write in and, like, say that they're a guy. And I think it's so interesting that, like, the girls are fine. Like, yeah, I'll just DM him. Like, you know, it's permanent. Like, it's in my DMs. Could see that I, like, said this. But, like, for guys, it's much more like, I want to hide the fact that I resonate so much with this.
How do you deal with— sorry, Liz, can I just jump on really quickly? Forgive me. So you obviously are acknowledged for doing some good work. And I'm sure you feel— I don't know if you feel pride, but you feel you're happy that you get to be of service in this way. How do you deal with the haters now? The people and the boys and the young men and even maybe the women as well, girls that are saying, oh, you're so weak, you're this, why are you— I don't know. Do you get any of that?
I do. I mean, of course it's social media. Come on. Right. So I think when I get comments like that, when I get people that disagree, I mean, I welcome all perspectives. Like, I'm not saying you have to, like, agree with me on everything. I'm just trying to share my perspective and make guys feel less alone and give them the tools to be more emotionally fluent. But when I get those comments, I ask why. Like, why is it like, why do you think it's weak to share? Why do you think it's weak to, you know, stop playing a sport if your mental health isn't good?
And none of this makes you feel less of a young man?
No, no.
Good.
I think sharing and being vulnerable, that's hard. That's harder to me than keeping everything inside. I think, like, do— going against the culture, going against the norm, I think that's really difficult. And that's a strength to me. Vulnerability to me is a strength. And I'm not again asking for people to agree. And when I see those comments, like, yeah, like, I mean, I, I expected this. Like, I didn't expect everyone to be like, rah rah. Like, let's— like, there's a reason why it's so hard for boys to share and be open.
Yeah.
Wow. Yeah.
Laurie, I'm curious, do you have teenage boys coming for your practice or are you— yeah, sort of exposed through parents? And what do you think is the number one thing that teenage boys are struggling with right now?
Yeah, I don't see teenage boys. I see the grown versions of them.
Yeah.
[LAUGHTER] Yes.
Okay, so what do grown men now miss as teenage boys then?
Oh, so much. Especially, you know what's really moving to me as a therapist is to see men who are dads trying to be a certain kind of dad that maybe they didn't have. Yeah. You know, and we got that, in fact, on the podcast, on the Dear Therapist podcast, we do sessions with people. And two of the, my favorite, are actually with men talking about their dads and, You know, one is dealing with— he just has a newborn, and he has really critical parents, and he doesn't want that kind of criticism. He was the one of his brothers who was known as, like, the sensitive one. He was too sensitive because he felt things, and the other brothers were not like that. And so he was always criticized as being weak, and something was wrong with him, and he would be made fun of, and he would be criticized. And he just doesn't— and he's having a— got a baby boy. And he said, I just don't want that around my son. I will never do that around my son, but I don't want my parents to do that. And at the end of the session, we always give homework and they have a week to complete it and then they tell us how it went. And he did the homework, which was to have a different kind of conversation about strength with his parents, one on like one with his mom and one with his dad. Interestingly, the one with his mom did not go so well. Hmm. In the moment, it actually paid off later. The one with his dad was beautiful because the dad said, "I wish that someone had talked to me about this a long time ago." And they just cried and hugged. And he did not expect that. He thought if anything, it would be his mom who would be more receptive to this. So it's really interesting to see men try to recalibrate from what they grow up with to what they want to pass on to the next generation and also what they want for themselves in their marriages, right?
Yeah.
Like they want a very different thing. They don't wanna just be like, I'm the person who like works all the time and I'm not really involved with the family. Mm-hmm. That old model isn't, doesn't make them happy.
Yeah. And I mean, I think what you're, uh, you're both saying is so interesting because the, what I've noticed with, with, um, just when, cuz I talk to men about masculinity and, and so I'll, I'll, You know, they often say that same thing to me where I've never said this to anyone, but this weird thing, you know, I have with my dad and the stories are the same. And men don't know that other men also have experienced the same thing and that it, and, and, and so the internalization of their father's behaviors, right? Assuming the intention of why they were hard on him because I wasn't enough or because, right? If they were to have the conversation with other men or with their fathers, I think it would just expand their whole world and, and open them up to a whole new way of, of understanding themselves and understanding their relationships with other men. But because they're, they're, yeah, there's no space, which you're creating, Zach, and you're, you're helping them, you know, really wire it at a young age to have those conversations. I think those are, that's enough. Like, we feel like we need to make this huge intervention with boys and like, there's a crisis, what are we gonna do? What are we, you know, and these big, obviously we should be investing in and, and researching and doing everything that we can, but But I also think that, you know, that community aspect for girls has been so powerful for girls to overcome the patriarchal expectations. And if we were to just design more spaces like the ones that you are creating, I mean, that the both of you are creating, but Zach particularly, I think it would make such a tremendous difference that like, yeah, boys don't— boys aren't broken. Like, like, right?
Like, no, they actually— they're, they're human. And I feel like what we do is we kind of take the humanity out out of them by shaming them. And there's so much shame that men carry around if they don't act in conventionally masculine ways.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And we used to see this on your— I mean, we used to go to— Zach was a basketball player, and, um, I mean, you could tell these stories of what you saw. It was because he would talk to me about it. He was really disturbed by this.
Okay, what kind of stuff?
I mean, it was more just like the message, like, if you fell down, it's like, all right, get back up. Like, you know, like, immediately just pop back up, pop right into the game. And I think, like, it really intensified because, like, I remember there's this one time where I felt, like, really awkwardly on my right arm, and I, like, could not— like, like, I actually had a fracture in it, so can't really play with that. But yeah, I immediately was like, all right, put me back in. Like, like, let me play some more. And it was a practice, it wasn't even a game, it was practice. And like no one really wasn't like my coaches actually were like, are you sure you're good? But it was more like the cultural messages that I get about how it's cool or it's like it shows you're strong. If like you just even if you're injured, you like play through it.
Yeah.
And it's this message like, just get through it. Just push.
Okay. Can I challenge this for a little bit?
Yeah.
First of all, I agree with you. I'm not saying I don't mean to challenge you, but us, because I also think there is a benefit to learning how to cope through things, right? So there is something I have with my kids, which is a distinction. Are you hurt or are you injured? Right? So whether they're a boy or a girl, when you fall down and you scream for me, let's make a distinction. Are you hurt? Because if you're hurt, you can get back up and you can muster through it. I don't mean man up. People up. Just like, know that you have strength and power.
Agency.
Agency to overcome where you're at. And making a distinction. Are you hurt? Because if you're hurt, you'll be okay. Are you injured?
Yeah.
So I'll do that with my son who would play basketball. He would fall down during these games and he would always be like, am I hurt or injured? Hurt. All right, get back up. We're not going to come running to you. I can help myself through this moment if it just hurts for a minute. It's going to be gone in 3 minutes. Because I also think that we need to develop strength, internal agency, that we have the capacity to get through tough moments.
And yeah, I'm not saying it or I'm not saying like If you fall down and, you know, maybe you just like fall like nothing, like if my arm wasn't fractured, like, yeah, I should have—
fractured.
Yeah, yeah. Like, I'm saying more like when I literally could not— like, I felt my arm. I knew something was really wrong. My arm was like kind of hanging weirdly and I was like pushing myself even though I knew something was seriously wrong, that I wouldn't, you know, just, just step to the side. But I definitely think that like for people of all genders, like for girls, like I don't see Like if a girl like falls down, people are like, people excuse it. Like, oh, you don't need to get back up.
That's true.
Like you're fine. Like they kind of tell you, almost push you to like, yeah.
Yeah. And the thing with that is that then boys grow up not knowing if they're hurt or they're injured.
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
They don't know. They don't know what they're feeling.
Right.
That's, that's the thing that, you know, I, I've really seen, cuz I deal with so many parents in my practice and so many times parents want to, um, you know what you were saying about fix it. And they don't let kids just sit in uncomfortable feelings. And that's the thing. So what I think what you're talking about, Zach, is, you know, we want to be able to sit in our discomfort because we know we can do that. Like we are strong in that way. But if we pretend we're not feeling anything, that's different. So, so many times kids will say, especially when they're little, you know, oh, I'm sad because of this. And a parent will be like, oh, don't be sad. Let's go get frozen yogurt, right? Or, you know, oh, I'm really worried about this. Oh, don't worry about that. We try to talk them out of their feelings because we are uncomfortable with their discomfort. We can't tolerate their discomfort. And what I always want to help parents do is to tolerate their kids' discomfort because that is helping them. That's not abandoning them. That's saying, I'm here, I'm giving you my presence, but I'm not giving you an answer. I'm sitting with you. So there are 3 words you can say to your kids, and this is any gender, just say, tell me more. So they say, oh, I'm really sad about this, or I'm worried, or I'm angry, or whatever it is. Oh, tell me more. And the more that they talk, the more that they have the space to kind of understand what's happening for them. And usually they'll come up with their own solution, like, oh, well, maybe I can talk to this friend tomorrow about— like, they'll come up with their own thing. So if they think that you're gonna solve it every time, they're not gonna be resilient. We wanna build resilient kids. But that's different from resilience being mistaken as, "Let me push down those feelings." It's you're resilient because you can sit with that discomfort, and you know you're gonna survive.
I love that.
You know, I'm curious, how do you like to be spoken to by adults? What do you think are some of the mistakes that not just— You know, you can talk about a mistake that your mom has made, but just in general.
There are many.
[LAUGHTER] What are the mistakes that parents make when they are having conversations with teenage boys?
I feel like one of them is treating them like they're less than or that they're not ready to have those conversations. Like they're kind of talking at them from a place of like, I'm the expert here. You're not.
Yeah.
You got to let your son have that agency to be like, I know what I'm going through. I know my experience and I know how to navigate things. Like, I think a lot of parents baby, especially boys, because they assume they're very emotionally stunted. And it's like, if you want them to feel like they're emotionally fluent, like, you can't treat them like they're not.
Yeah.
And that's something that I'd love for parents to keep in mind. Like, I just feel like, just make sure that they know that they're capable. And then also, like, don't, like, berate them. Like, don't try to, like, pry. I feel like parents are trying to, like, pry and get information out. But instead, I think it's so much more effective if you just, like, sit back and are like, hey, like, if you notice something's up, just say, hey, I noticed something's up. I'm here. All right, find me.
All right.
I also noticed that, um, I think especially this probably applies to all teens, but I think especially boys, that they tend to do better with, um, you know, we'll go on a walk and we're just, just to go on a walk, and like things will come up that maybe wouldn't come up if we were face to face. Or you're driving in the car, so you're side by side. I think that a lot of men feel more comfortable without the intense eye contact when they're talking about things that feel a little bit vulnerable to them.
Which is such a shame.
Yeah, it is. But I think it's sort of baby steps, right? And I also think, you know, you've talked in the past, Zach, about how creating the space, you know, when parents, like, say, "You can talk to me about anything," and then you go and you tell them, and then you freak out on them, right?
And it's like, "Oh, guess what?
You're grounded." [LAUGHTER] Oh, you went to that party? Oh, so you're not going out for a month, right?
Yeah. So you can't tell me everything. Yeah.
Right. Like you, you like, if you, if you, you can tell me, but there will be a negative consequence. So there's no reason that your kid's gonna tell you these things. You wanna create the space for them to tell you those things. Mm-hmm. And then discuss with them, okay, what does this mean?
Yeah. And I think a really core part of it is not being judgmental. Right. And, and they're having no judgment in those conversations, which I, I know with my You know, that was a big thing that I felt from both my parents, you know, and why I didn't share a lot of things with them. And I think particularly with girls and sex, right? Like, or just, you know, I sort of weird-coded slut-shaming, you know, coming from parents who are just trying to protect their daughters, but it sort of sends the message of like, "I think lesser of you if you do X, Y, Z. And so, of course, I'm not gonna share these parts with you," which I think in turn, I think they would've protected me preferred, right? Much more to have those conversations with me and for me to feel comfortable, but that I could feel the judgment.
And that's why kids lie to their parents. Or why partners lie to each other in a relationship. Is because they almost— the other person almost invites dishonesty. I'm not saying that the lie was okay. It's not. But what I'm saying is that a lot of times, like, I'll see this in couples too, or I'll see parents come in and say, my kid is lying to me. And it's like, well, let's try to understand why this might be. And then, you know, if you do family therapy and the kid will say, well, like, if I tell you the truth, you overreact. Yeah. And so I can't just tell you something because you have this huge reaction.
Right.
Even things like, oh, I'm really feeling, maybe I'm feeling depressed.
Yeah.
I can't tell my parents that because then they're gonna get this army of people and you know, all this stuff. And it's like, no, no, no, I'm just, I'm going through something right now. I'm not sure I wanna talk to a therapist right now. Let's talk, let's keep talking about it. Right. And then, but they just go straight to this alarmist place. Yeah. So they catastrophize, panic. Yes. Yeah.
They're smart.
So parents, you know, coming back to being resilient themselves, right. And managing, and you know, we were talking about teaching that to children, but it's important for parents to be emotionally resilient so that they're not, yeah. Sort of coming out with all these reactions, which will prevent Intimacy.
And also, I was just going to say that, you know, you're talking about the slut-shaming. I think it's interesting the way that parents talk to boys about sex and dating because it's all sort of fear-based. Yeah, right. No matter who you're talking to, it's kind of like, well, you know, there's one thing to talk about consent. It's another to, like, scare your boys so much.
Yeah.
That, you know, it feels like there's nothing organic, romantic, anything about that.
Okay. So an overcompensation, right?
Like, like treating them like criminals.
Okay.
So it's like, it's like, yes, this really happens and we have to educate our boys and they have to understand what's going on and they have to understand, you know, how to understand what their partner is wanting and to really pay attention to their partner's needs.
Yeah.
But the question is, you know, do we, do we immediately criminalize them? And it reminds me of sort of like this overreaction with, you know, the way people are treating consent and the way that they're educating young people about it. And like, I remember when girl power was sort of like a big thing originally. And still you can see these— when he was in preschool, these girls would come to preschool and they would wear these t-shirts that said, "Boys are stupid. Let's throw rocks at them." Yeah. Okay. Because that was girl power. And that's not girl power. So I remember he asked me, he was like 4 years old and he was like, "Why does it say girls should throw rocks at us?" Like, he did not understand that. And can you imagine if girls— if boys came, you know, "Girls are stupid. Let's throw rocks at them," right? So it was trying to empower girls, but in a way that put down boys. So I think that we have to be careful that when we're trying to be empowering to young people, that it's not about putting somebody else down. It's about making sure that we're respecting everybody.
Yeah. Can I just share something with you guys really quickly? Because I think— so I have two kids who are 7 and 6. And my wife— I'm going to show the camera there. My wife sent me this and she caught them standing in line just doing this.
Oh, that is beautiful.
They're just standing next to each other with their hands on their back, just rubbing each other.
We all need someone to stand next to who's going to rub our backs.
Just there. Come on. I was like, oh my gosh, we're doing something. Okay. Yeah, they love each other. I had a couple of questions. I'm one. That thinks a big part of our boys' lack is the absence of fathers.
Yeah.
And I don't mean like the worst-case scenario father that obviously should not be raising children or whatever, but the absence of a father, a male figure that these boys are being raised with who don't have some sort of positive identity of what that means or how to treat a woman, assuming that they're a decent person. How they loved their mother so that when they pick a spouse, they've learned how to love someone, how to deal with failure, how to deal with strength from the perspective of what boys go through. Not to discredit single mothers like yourself who are not raising fantastic children. The world should be so lucky if all boys were like you. So I'm not discrediting that while also not discrediting the fact that I think boys need men in their lives.
Yeah, absolutely.
How has that worked for you guys, being that this young man is so incredible? And I imagine that since you're a single mother, that his father has not been in your life.
I used a sperm donor to have him, but he actually just wrote a piece for The New York Times all about the men in his life. Maybe you could speak better to that.
Yeah, I mean, at first, like, I totally agree. Like, you, you do need this father figure. I think it's so important. And for a long time, like, I knew I had a donor out there. I had no idea who he was. And then a few years ago, I, like, listened to this CD that they taped at the sperm bank of him where he answered a bunch of questions. And then you, like, saw this picture and it was like, wow, he looks exactly like me. And his interests, like, align so well with mine. So then I was kind of like, what if, you know, in this fantasy hypothetical world, like, what if he were my father? But what I've really come to realize and what I wrote about in the pieces is that I've had fathers all along. They just weren't my— like, it's not about biology. It's about what they do for you. And whether it was my grandfather who I was super close with, or family friends, or just like a coach who like taught me something, I think it's just having male role models that fill in, that teach you things. And that's been a very positive influence on myself.
And so you were, you were as a mother, sure that he had male figures around him.
Oh, yeah, he had a village of men. Yeah. And I think that that was so nice because he got to see different men and different perspectives and different ideas about the world. So he got to learn from— I think a lot of girls grow up with a lot of women. They're always surrounded by lots of women, and they get all the support and knowledge. And I feel like men don't get that. So, yes, if they have a great father, they have that, but they don't tend to have a whole cohort of adult men. They have their friends. And so he is in, I think, this unique position where he's got all of these different kinds of men in his life of different ages, different places in life. You know, I'm thinking of one person. So first of all, I made sure he had a male babysitter. So that was like, he was the only kid who had a male babysitter growing up. And they would like, you know, so he would pick him up from school and they would go play sports and all this stuff. And all the other boys were so jealous. Were so jealous because they were like, he gets to go play with this college kid. Like, he had this college kid who was with us for what, like 5, 6 years, right? And so it was like that.
He—
it was like having an older brother, but who was also responsible and taking care of him and teaching him about the world. And then another family friend who was— when we first met him, he was, uh, when Zach first met him, I should say, it was like 7. You were like 7. Yeah. And he was single, and then he had a girlfriend, and then he ended up marrying this girlfriend, and now they have 3 kids. And so, Zach's been sort of on the journey. He was like the only kid invited to the wedding because it was, you know, like— And when he was proposing to his now wife, Zach was in the video of like why this person should marry this person. And so, I think he just like heard all this advice and life wisdom from all of these men about like, what are relationships like? And how do we interact with women? And, you know, how do we have all the talks that he would want to have with men that he would not want to have with me? And he would have those with— He had like this this whole cohort of men that he could go to. And I think that even for, you know, boys who grow up with fathers, I think having that cohort is such a nice thing. The village, I think, of men really matters. Yeah.
Yeah. And in many ways, maybe being a single mother, you know, makes you— If there was a dad in the picture, maybe you wouldn't have been as deliberate about building that community of boys around them.
There was one guy who was one of Zack's coaches, and he would talk to Zack about all kinds of things. And I remember that he said to me one day, he said, "It's so interesting because having these conversations with Zach has made me want to have these conversations with my own son." They were on the same team. He said, "I didn't think to have these conversations with my son. It never came up for me. And I sort of took Zach under my wing, and I started talking about all these things that, as a man, I didn't know I could talk about with my boy." And so it actually helped him with his relationship with his own son. By taking Zach under his wing. So, it's interesting 'cause I think a lot of fathers, like, they don't really know, you know, they don't really— They take for granted their role as a father.
I was exactly thinking that same thing.
Right? And so, when then you intentionally are saying, "I'm going to be a father figure to this other person," it makes you think about, "What kind of father am I being to my own child?" Right.
Yeah. What's your advice for dads who are maybe listening, you know, who feel like they're not as close to their teenage or young, you know, you know, their son, however old they are. Yeah. What's your advice for sort of building more intimacy between fathers and sons?
Telling them that you love them. Telling them that you're proud of them. Telling them that you're there for them if they want to talk about anything.
Mm-hmm.
Telling them there's nothing that they can tell you that would make you not love them.
That they are enough.
That they are enough.
Always enough.
Yeah, always enough. And even in failure. Well, yeah, I don't even think there's like that word failure. You know, it's kind of like mistakes or learning experiences, which I always use it just in terms of even when you don't achieve what you thought you were going to achieve. Yes, yes, yes, yes. I mean, look, we can call it, we can call it whatever we want. But I think that so often boys feel this incredible pressure to succeed. And, you know, we talk about perfectionism in girls. But there's a different kind of perfectionism in boys. There are certain things where they feel like they absolutely must succeed at so that their fathers are proud of them. I have grown men, I have men in their 60s telling me, "My father is 90, and I still think he's not proud of me." Yeah. Right? So then, so what's going on there? So you asked, Liz, what can we, what can fathers do? You don't want your child at 60 to still be wondering, "Did I make my father proud?
Is he disappointed in this decision that I made?" I think one of those ways too is as men, we have to show our boys our vulnerability and our mistakes so that when they make theirs, they know it's normal.
Yes.
You know, and that they don't have to feel shame in it and that they're not less than. I'm one that is okay with the word failure in the sense of because I think the world uses that. So I don't want my son to be afraid of a word.
Yeah.
You know, whether it's this, it's like failure. Okay, you wanted to run 3 miles and you only ran 2 miles. Okay, it was a success that you ran, but I understand your goal was 3. And you failed at that. So what?
Sure.
Yeah, you will fail all the time. I failed every single day of my life.
Yes.
I wanted to eat this much candy and I ate more than I thought. I failed at that. Fine. It doesn't even have power over me anymore. Um, so, but we need to show our kids, like, I messed up a good portion of my life for a good portion of my life where my second marriage went south due to my own doing. And my kids I let them in on where I was at, like where I stumbled, where I tripped, what was going on, so they could see my humanity and that they didn't— my son specifically didn't have to think that I was just some armored man.
Right. And what you're doing for them is that you're modeling both responsibility and accountability. And vulnerability, of course. But it's not just the vulnerability. It's, you know, I think it's— people will often think, "Oh, if I just say that I did this, then it's over." No. What am I showing that I learned from this? How did I grow from this? From this? What is the lesson that came from this? So I messed up and here's how I messed up. Great, that's step 1. Step 2 is, and here's what I'm gonna do differently. So we can, you know, a lot of parents don't wanna apologize to their kids because they think that it like takes away their, their kind of respect that the kids have for them. You actually earn your kids' respect by being a real human. So if I can say, I do all the time, I come in because I mess up a lot.
It might be the next day, but I appreciate it.
[LAUGHTER] But I I do it. And, you know, but I come in and I say, you know what, I really thought about that and I was wrong. And I'm really sorry. And I'm gonna do better next time with that.
I love that. I do that all the time with my kids.
Right.
Or try to, try to.
And that's so much better than sitting in your shame and thinking, well, you know, I can't admit that I did something wrong. It really models for young people, you know, how do we have these conversations in any of our relationships? How do we take responsibility for our own? Actions without bathing in shame around it.
Can you guys do me a favor? Ask a favor? I would love to hear you say 3 things about your mom that you love.
Sure. 3 things about my mom that I love.
To your mom.
Yeah. Okay. Trying to think because there's so many things and I, I'm, I'm thinking about how to condense into 3. I'd say one is how open you are about not only things in your life, but like you're also genuinely curious about mine and help me work through things and help teach things that I don't necessarily know. I'd say another thing is like I could, I could tell that like you, you push me a lot because you know how great I can be. And like sometimes, like, yeah, it's a little much, but I could see the passion behind, like, you're so passionate about me living up to my potential, and I really appreciate that. And I'd say the last thing is like, I think you're always willing to work something out, and you make it clear that our relationship, even if like something, even if you have a fight, whatever it is, like you're there to remedy it because our relationship is more important.
I'm gonna cry.
Yeah, me too. How sweet to hear. A young boy, not young boy, you're an old boy, young man. Express that. It's really sweet. Lori, how about you? What are 3 things that you love about your boy?
Oh my, like him, I don't know if I can find just 3. I would say, I love your soul. We have a saying in our house, it comes from my book. It's called, your neshamah is like your soul. So I say, I love your neshamah, like your essence, your soul, like just the the essence of who you are, regardless of sort of like anything external, just like who you are inside. I love your neshamah. I love how funny you are. You have an amazing sense of humor. It is so fun to be around you. I just— I love being around you. I love, like, watching TV with you and hearing— doing commentary with you and all of your sort of like funny, sarcastic comments. It's just a joy to hang out with you. And I would say, um, I love how kind you are. I love how kind you are in the world, um, with anybody, with a stranger, with a friend, the way you handle your relationships with such integrity. Um, I just think you're an amazing human, and I'm honored to be your mom.
Well, maybe that's what you do with your son tonight, if you're right, if you're listening. And between, you know, I've never even done that with my, with my, any of my parents, you know. Um, and what a beautiful exercise. Thank you for sharing that.
Yeah, of course. One thing that came to mind earlier, we were talking about like guys opening up to guys and how to start those relationships. I think this can be a great exercise, like I don't think I've ever, like, maybe like one, like, I've only had like one guy friend who has ever like named specific things that he liked about me, like, like that weren't like surface level, like actual, like things like this.
Yeah.
And I feel like from your close friends, like you don't really hear that.
Yeah.
So, so good stuff. I have a question. It's a little bit, it's always on topic, but a little bit. You had said earlier that oftentimes boys, teenage boys, based on a question you asked Liz, was that boys are seen as emotionally stunted or not as advanced as girls. I do think that's true. I don't think that boys are stunted.
I mean, not the capacity's not, but I think the proof is in the pudding.
You survey, you get 10 girls that are 17 years old and generally 10 boys that are 17, they're not as advanced as you are or not as emotionally aware and as articulate. And I think having conversations— what's the name of your book? You Should Try Talking?
Maybe You Should Talk to Someone.
Maybe You Should Talk to Someone. I think when we talk, that's one of the ways that we advance, right? And we grow spiritually, emotionally, as we hear other people's thoughts. You get comfortable in that. You get to hear your own thoughts, as you had said that you do. Like, tell me more. Those three words. I'm going to remember that. And girls do that more. They're encouraged to do it more. So by the time they're 17 years old, they've had so much practice at speaking and talking and telling me more, telling me more and talking to someone. And boys don't do that as much. They're not making eye contact. They're not being vulnerable. They're shamed for doing so. They're not as tough. All this stuff. So they don't have the opportunity to develop those skills as much as girls do. So it makes me think that you demonstrate the capacity of boys at 17 years old. And so many other boys too, as well. I'm not saying that there's not amazing ones out there, but I think it's probably because you are comfortable talking and making eye contact. What you just shared with your mom, there's a lot of boys that could not do that. Look at them and specifically articulate that. Well, that's because you're wonderful, but also because you have practice at it. So I'm just thinking how much better we would be as a society if boys were encouraged to talk and to share their feelings and to feel safe to tell their mom they're wonderful.
Or to tell their dad.
Or to tell their dad or to tell their friends and to be in a circle, which I actually have a lot of men's groups that we do exactly that. We remind each other of our nobility. And what we see in each other and our capacity. In fact, when I was in my young 20s, I went and joined a men's group. For the first time I'd ever seen 120 men that were doctors and lawyers and scientists and all the things, and also some convicts from across the whole gamut that were there to talk about their capacity, their spiritual development, their emotional development, and how they can better serve their community. And I saw these men crying and telling each other that they loved each other and what they saw in each other. I was like, "Where the hell am I? I've never seen anything like this before." And that gave me permission to stand in that also. So if we could model that, you know, which I try to in my life now and have groups around me all the time, I just think the world would be so much better when boys develop that wing that women so often have, um, are a little bit better at it, have learned.
They have more practice. More practice.
That's what I should say. Yeah. More practice at it. And therefore, because of practice, the more that you practice something, the better you get at it. So I wish boys could practice it more. So I'm glad you're doing it and we should encourage others to do it as well.
And they want it. Boys want it.
They do.
I think that that's been hard raising a boy where I think so many people would just make, especially when he was young, saying things like, "Boys are like this, and girls are so wonderful." Right? And it's in front of him. Right? So, I think that there are all these stereotypes of the kind of person he was gonna grow up to be. You know, even people say things like, "Oh, as he grows up, your girls will stay close to you, but your boys won't." And it's like, I think it's about the relationship.
I don't think it's about what gender they are.
But isn't that traditionally true, though? Girls stay close.
Not always. I mean, my brother is much closer to my mom than I am.
Right. But I think traditionally, the idea, isn't it based on—
Well, but it's— Sorry to interrupt, but I think it's based on this idea that, you know, boys could not get close to their parents emotionally in the same way. So girls were always getting emotionally close to their parents.
No, I agree. I agree with that it's a false— hood in its— what's the word I'm looking for? It's inherently false. But the practice isn't necessarily false because boys are not nurtured in that way. Oftentimes it is said you lose a son and you gain a son-in-law, right? So like your son moves away and goes, gets married to someone else and he's not as close to the family, but you gain a son-in-law because the girl stays close to the family and then the husband then moves in there. So I I've witnessed that a lot.
Sure.
So I don't think it's a false statement in what we witness, but it's false in that it can't look different.
That's exactly right. So, yes, it does happen more that way. But I think the reason it happens more is because we treat girls differently as they're growing up in terms of the relational component. Right? And boys are kind of like, you know, supposed to be kind of independent and self-sufficient, and they're going to go out and they're going to go find their life, and the girls are going to stay close to their moms. Right. I can tell you as a therapist, I see a lot of different things happening than that. Sure. But I'm really glad to see that so many men do, you know, I would say younger men, like men in their 20s that I see, like the right out of college, that they're so different from the men that I see who are like 50, 60, 70, right? Yeah. Just so different in their, their orientation toward family, like what they want, what they want in a partner. How they're grappling with this idea of what does it mean to be a man and what does an egalitarian marriage look like, which doesn't mean you're the same.
It's not sameness.
It's not sameness at all. Equality is not sameness. It's about equal power.
Sure.
Right.
Which I'm glad you say that, because no matter what we're saying, we're not saying that men and women are the same.
No, they're different.
There is differences.
Yes.
Just biologically, as an animal side, there are some differences.
Absolutely. And so we're not trying to erase those differences. We're trying to say there's a spectrum. And it's also that, you know, what we're trying to do is we're trying to create, like, a more human relational aspect to men that they have not been able to express because they have the same needs that we do. When men come in to talk to me in therapy, they're talking about so many of the same things that women talk about. Literally. Like, it's funny because you think, "Oh, they're gonna be talking about all these different things." No, they're talking about, about what it was like growing up and what they felt from their parents and what's going on in their relationships and what they really want in their relationships. And are they being accepted? And are they being loved? And same thing with women.
Wow.
That's so fascinating. Before we wrap, we always ask our guests, you know, what does it mean for you to be man enough? Zach, do you want to start?
Yeah, I feel like being man enough is— like it really means you're able, like there's nothing you feel you have to hide. Like you feel like, I mean, obviously like privacy and all that, but I think it's like you could really share and have legit relationships with people. And if you're able to do that and like understand your limits, understand your boundaries, push yourself, but know when to stop and know that that's okay. I feel like just Knowing yourself and knowing how to treat other people genuinely, I think that's what it means for me to be man enough.
Good. Love that. For you, I would actually ask the same question. What do you think it means to be man enough?
I would echo a lot of what Zach said, and I think what he's really getting at is authenticity and a sense of wholeness. And I think that when you are authentic to yourself and you feel whole, That, to me, is what being man enough is. I think people who don't feel whole can't be authentic.
Hmm. Men who don't feel whole can't be authentic.
They're hiding. They're trying to be something else. They're trying to pretend.
Yeah. Beautiful.
No more hiding.
You guys are really, really sweet and wonderful. Before you came on, of course, we were happy to have you on, but it's different when you actually spend time together. Time with people. And I think the work you guys are doing in the world is evident in how you guys operate and how you talk to each other and how you talk about this. You're doing an incredible job. Not that you need me to validate it, but I'm a father of 4. [LAUGHTER] So I have some experience at being a parent. And the proof is in the pudding. He is really, really quite spectacular. So I know you're proud of it. And you've put the work in.
Yeah, I mean, it's him, you know?
It's him, but you have to have a gardener. You know, otherwise they become, you know—
I just try to be there and stay out of his way and let him be the person he is.
Well, even that is really smart. You're doing wonderfully. And I mean, just you and the work you're doing itself is incredible. So thank you for sharing some of that wisdom and learning with us.
Well, thank you so much for having us on. It's really been fun to have this conversation with my son. Oh, yes.
And you, let me just tell you, brother, "Brother, we're gonna keep our eye on you." Yeah.
Okay?
Because we're doing this work, and we care about it. I really— all of us do. Just speaking for myself, um, I have two boys, and I want them— I want when they're in their grave or at their funeral, as we oftentimes used to ask this question, I want people to say that they contributed to society in a way that was deliberate, that changed something. They were of service to humanity. All the other stuff. I don't care about awards. I don't care about how much money you make. I don't care about all this stuff. Did they contribute to society in advance? And also, did they really stand for women? And I think in order for boys to do that, we have to know and know ourself and be comfortable in ourself so that we can actually champion women so that this world can fly balanced because it's flying really imbalanced because the wing of men have been oversaturated and the woman's wing has not been honored in its true form. So I know and believe that you will be one of those that do that. So we're going to keep our eye on you so that maybe in the future we have you back on and be maybe a guest host.
Yeah, we were going to say, we were like, "He's like a mini Justin." [LAUGHTER] So kudos to you and all the work you're doing.
And I love that you honor your mama. You keep honoring her.
Thanks so much. Yeah, it's been great talking.
Thank you.
All right. Well, hey, Liz, are we wrapping this out?
I guess so.
If you like what you heard, Go watch us.
Watch us. Where can they watch us?
On YouTube.com.
And you can see this face.
Yes.
And this face.
All the beautiful faces.
All our faces.
Yeah. You can also check us out wherever you listen to your podcasts.
Thank you very much again, Laurie Zak, for joining us. Until next time, I'm Jamie Heath.
And I'm Liz Plank.
And this is Man Up.
