Cultivating Audacity: The Audacious Path To Success With Anne Marie Anderson

Life happens, and not always the way we expect it to. Every single day we face change, stress and uncertainty. What if you could learn to thrive no matter what life throws your way? Resilience expert Adam Markell and his inspiring guests explore breakthrough strategies to fully embrace change and build the resilience required to become change.

Proof.

Hey everybody, I'm Adam Markell and I'm your host for the Change Proof podcast today. I'm so excited for the guest and person that I have on the show. You're going to learn so much from her. You're going to love her. She's absolutely amazing. I'm going to read her bio just because it's so impressive, it's so interesting and then we're going to dig right in. So her name is Ann Marie Anderson and she is an author, a three time Emmy award winning broadcaster and keynote speaker. Having spent more than three decades in sports television, Anderson has covered many of sports biggest events including six Olympic Games, golf majors, NBA and Major League baseball playoffs, heavyweight title fights, and the super bowl for a variety of networks including espn, abc, Fox and NBC. She has been a keen observer of leadership styles in some of the most successful franchises in sport and studied how they can be applied to other industries. Her book Cultivating Audacity challenges readers to dismantle doubt and grow the skills to meet the challenges to excel again. You are going to so love this conversation. So sit back, buckle up, just get loose and enjoy. Okay, Anne Marie, so your bio, your history, all the things you've done in the world, it's, it's, it's incredible, it's impressive, It's a mouthful. It was fun to just read it actually. But my question to you at the outset is really, what's, what's one thing? I mean, I'm sure there's a lot of things, but what is one thing that's not part of that sort of standard CV introduction, all that good stuff for you that you would love for people to know about you?

I think the thing that really kind of defines me that I want people to know is that I'm incredibly curious about everything in the world. So if we were to meet, I want to know kind of not just your name, not what you do. In fact, I don't want to know what you do. I want to know what drives you, what excites you, maybe what challenges you. What's hard. I'm always, I'm never really afraid of the hard, Adam. I'm interested to in people's it's funny, you're wearing a shirt called Resilience that says resilience. And that's exactly what I'm interested in is like, how. How did you overcome this for anybody? Anybody I meet? So I think that's, that's something that's not in any CV anywhere. But it is kind of what defines and what excites me.

Wow. I would just want to riff on that for a minute because I. Given how many, how many moments of your life you've spent with people that are at the height of. Or, you know, they're involved in their athletic pursuits professionally and even at the Olympics on an amateur level, but they're after something, you know, sort of this peak of performance and all that. And lately, I mean, I really hear the word resilience used a lot. I wrote a book some years ago called Pivot. And then I, you know, after the pandemic or in the pandemic, all I heard was the word pivot. And I wish I had a dime for every time people said that word. Right. And, you know, all that and resilience now really similarly being used a lot among athletes in describing how they're making it through various challenges in there, in their. In that pursuit. So I'd love to just get your take on that. Like what, how, how do you, how have you seen resilience show up in that arena in the sort of athletic space? And, and how would you even define it? I guess also what I'd like to.

Know, one of the things that's, that's happened in my life as I've kind of just matured and kind of dug into audacity, right? That's, that's kind of my thing is, is that I don't define anything as a failure anymore. There is no such thing as failure for me. It's all data, right. Leading me towards the next thing. And when you're working with athletes, they, they don't succeed, right? If I'm not going to use the word failure, they don't succeed far more than they succeed, right? You miss more shots than you take. And so one of the things I've really enjoyed in 36 years of working in sports is watching the response. And I think resilience is a lot of times a. About the response. And so it is, how do you take something that did not turn out the way that you hoped, that you intended, that you planned? How do you take that and turn it into your next move? And to me, that's resilience. And that can be, if you're on a basketball court, and you, you know, you make the wrong move and your defender gets p. You. How do you, on the next time down the court respond to that? And. And it's the same thing in life. If you are rejected for a job or in a relationship, your relationship fails. What's your next move after that? And that for me is resilience. The fact that you get up and you make another move.

Yeah, that's so funny, because the. Even the concept for pivot that. For that book was the idea of the pivot in basketball. How. How it. It's the opportunity to. To. Because you can move your. You can move in a circle around that. Pivoted around that foot that is stationary, and you sort of swivel around it. To not use the word pivot again. To be able to see. You can go 360 degrees around, you know, to be able to see what your options are. So it's.

Yes, exactly.

So that you can make that next move. And that's Right. And I think when people define resilience, because as a researcher, as a speaker myself, and in our. Our business side, the work. Well side of our consulting, we were asking that question. We're getting people's take on it. We're analyzing the data, like you said, a lot. And people often sort of equate it very much to this ability to sort of bounce back or take a punch, take a hit, you know, rocky, you know, grit even, you know, that idea that you have to just be able to withstand those. Those blows. But to me, that's. That's so not the story. The side of the story, like that is burying the lead. I mean, you're a journalist, so. And I feel like that's what you just said. That to do that is very much like. It is not assertive. It's almost leans into sort of a victim. You know, like you become a punching bag if you learn something to be able to actually make your next move.

Right, right, right. To just take. It doesn't. It's just not productive. Right. To just absorb it. So then what. You're in the same spot and you're. You're open to like another attack. I always say to people, I'm not a big fan of the word hope, and I know it's kind of an unpopular take. Right. People say, well, it's a virtue and it's. You know, but for me, it's. It's not a plan. It's not actionable. And I feel like resilience is actionable, and it is something where. Okay, here's what happened, and how am I going to respond? And I love when you're talking about, like a basketball pivot, right. And you're seeing every single option around, your next move also may not end up the way you want it to, but now you've got even more data. Okay, this doesn't work this way. This doesn't work this way. So let's try something else that doesn't give me the outcome that I want. And so I. I agree. Because resilience, as a matter of, like, oh, I can take a shot and get back up again to what, to receive another shot or to actually take a step and make any kind of a move.

You remember that when we were kids, I. I'm. I'm assuming we all had these things. The blow up, like, clown that you punch, right? And it would hit the ground and then it would just bounce right back up.

Yeah, right, right.

The punching dummy. Like, that's how it's a good. It's a good visual. Nobody would ever want to think of themselves in that way. I think it really requires not just a reframing, but a real sort of changing a language and in recognizing that language actually really is important in how we see things. Which is why you write books and why people still, some of them read books, we hope. Right. And you've got a book that just came out a couple of months ago, and I want to. I want to learn more about it. I want people to learn more about it, and I want to know first and foremost what inspired you to do that. You mean you've got in the background for people that are listening this. You can't see it, but if you're on YouTube, you can. I'll just describe it to. There are three statues sitting over Anne Marie's left shoulder. There are three statues that anybody in the entertainment industry and business, you know, would want to have. They strive to have. These are. These are really beautiful gold statues. They're Emmys. And so I want to. I want to understand from your perspective, in a storied career, where does writing a book fit in? What was your inspiration for doing that? And then tell us. Let's get to the through line of what that book is all about as well.

Oh, thank you. Well, the book is called Cultivating Audacity. Right. Dismantle doubt and let yourself win. And it was. It was interesting to me, Adam, as I was writing it, because I wanted to call it dismantled out how to dismantle doubt and take bold risks, because that's what Audacity is it's, it's the willingness to take bold, sometimes surprising risks. And what we found out when we tested the title was that people were afraid of the word risk. Just the word in the title. They were like, I don't want to take a risk because there was this attachment to failure and it was interesting. So I acquiesced and changed it to let yourself win. And I'm kind of mad. I did in a way, because I want people to get comfortable with that word risk. The reason that throughout my career I spent 36 years in television, that I'm still a working broadcaster, is that every, it's so rejection heavy, television is. And I was so thin skinned that I needed to recalibrate my relationship to other people's opinions of me and other people's ideas of success, especially when I made the move to go in front of the camera. I started out as a producer and so my career ended up being taking one bold risk after another. And it's, it's interesting with our earlier conversation about taking the hit and getting back up because certainly on television, in a public forum, you can just get hit again and again and again with people's opinions, you know, from their couch, from their mother's basement, you know, through their thumbs or whatever. And for me, I ended up blocking out those people because their opinion doesn't matter to me and kept thinking about, how can I be better, how can I risk more? And so at this point in my career, I wanted to kind of share with people because I had so many people. And you have this too, where people come up and they say, I want to do what you do, I want to, I want to do that. But. And then there's that, but, right, but I'm afraid, but I don't have time, but I don't have talent, but I don't have money, but I don't have. And so I wanted people to understand that there's four barriers that I've seen consistently that get in the way. Fear, time, money, or your inner critic. Those kind of stop people from taking that risk. And so I wanted to share with people those four barriers and some ideas about how to attack them, how to use them, not overcome them. I don't think that you overcome your fears. I think you need to be curious about it, make friends with it and use it, it to propel you forward to your next move.

I mean, is curiosity just something you were like that curious kid that was always getting in, like, like Curious George getting in trouble or, or where. So where did curiosity start to be cultivated in you or is this just sort of a thing that evolved as you, as you began to evolve?

Yeah, I, I don't think, I think the curiosity came throughout my journalism career where I would get to meet people and athletes, obviously the best athletes in the world. Right. I've covered six Olympic Games and the super bowl and heavyweight title fights and NBA playoffs and all that. And being able to do those interviews for SportsCenter for ESPN where you're finding out what makes these particular people tick. I think the thing that defined me in terms of audacity, the thing I was born with, because I don't think it was curiosity or the thing I grew up with is a competitiveness with myself. I am the youngest of five. I have four older brothers. So I was constantly trying to keep up with them and I felt like I just needed to have a place and it was tough to have a place with brothers that were so much bigger and older. And so I feel like that's where my competitiveness came from, which has served me really well in my career, for sure.

Yeah. Certainly in, in sports. And I mean I, I can say this. I don't know if I have any, I don't have any real life experience to back this up, but I have three daughters and a wife and, and a son too. So this is my, you know, whatever the credentials are for the statement. But I mean, it's a male dominated industry, has been, still is. So for you to break through and succeed in that space, I would imagine. Yeah. A healthy competitive spirit would probably not, you know, would probably help you, right?

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I do thank my brothers for the fact that I am so comfortable in competitive spaces. I'm comfortable with men. There's a lot more women obviously now in the industry than there were in 1989. When I started at ESPN, I started really young and I think I was just comfortable in a male culture which has now become more of a gender neutral culture, thank goodness.

Yeah, that it, that seems to be the case for sure. Still work to be done there obviously.

But yeah, I always have to say this. When we talk about more work to be done, I always want to say like, because now we have seen more people of color in television and more women, but the one area we haven't seen yet, and I always feel like we don't see people who are differently abled very often on television yet. So I always want to put that out there and say, have you thought about that? That there's people who are differently abled that we don't see on television yet. So I think that's the next big frontier.

Is it okay to celebrate the fact that great strides have been made in the right direction?

Of course.

I'm only saying that I'm teeing it up for the purpose that I think some, sometimes it does feel as though we don't acknowledge some of the strides that are made because we're still saying, but it's not right and it's not enough and it's not, you know, whatever. You're smiling, you know, you're nodding. Are you in agreement with that?

I am. I'm nodding and smiling because at one point in the book, towards the end, I talk about these contemplation Cs where when you've made the move, you need to think about it. And one of them is celebrating. So that's why I'm smiling because I think a lot of times we want to celebrate when we get to the end and there is no end. So I'm right with you. Yes. Celebrating that we're here. Of course there's work to be done. And it's the same thing when we're making that audacious move. I think in the book I, I talked about, I climbed to Everest base camp many years ago pre kids. And I didn't like, just celebrate when I got to base camp at, you know, 17,000ft or every day was a celebration for what had been accomplished. And so that's. That's why the big smile. Absolutely. We celebrate every step of the way. And when people make a decision, by the way, an uncomfortable, audacious decision, you celebrate that not attached to the outcome. The actual win in audacity is in the action, it's not in the outcome. So, yeah, celebrate that every single time.

Yeah. I want to come back to Audacity and, and get a little more granular on that in a second. But I do want to ask you, I think what I feel like is a difficult question about, about the subject work we've been on for a moment, which is to say what would be assigned to you and let's just make it for the moment about women, just for the moment, because there's a lot of people that have been marginalized and a lot of people that, that we, you know, I think if you have a heart and you have, you know, like in children give you, you know, like being a parent, I think that's grown my heart. I don't know if it does for everybody, but so, you know, if you can and I say this in the context of if you had a child that had a disability or was differently abled or was whatever. Right. Whatever your child, you may have adopted a child, you would never want to think or see a world or live in a world where that child had a more difficult time to succeed than some other person's child who looked differently, right? Yeah, I, I think you could say that. I really think you could say that to the biggest bigot in the world and they still wouldn't be able to argue that fact. I just, I want to get in that debate, but I don't get into those spaces, like on purpose.

Right.

Especially when it's at a distance. Because when people don't have to look you in the eye and speak face to face, they could say whatever they want. Right. They just, you know, what's another shop, another topic? So what would be, what would be a sign to you that things are in a good harmony from the standpoint of women in the industry that you've been involved in for 30 plus years?

When we stop saying it's women, when it's all just people, right? When you talk about basketball in my house, they say women's or men's, right? We're going to watch basketball game, women's or men's. Understanding that that's not the way it is in the rest of the world. So at some point, when we drop. She's a tremendous female broadcaster or, you know, she's a tremendous female basketball player. She's a basketball player. Am I saying that she is the same talent that LeBron James is? No. Obviously they have different skills, but when we stop calling them women basketball players, women play by play, announcers, female, you know, officials, that's when I'm going to celebrate a little extra hard.

Yeah, this is not the show for the conversation, but I don't put, just put a marker here for people to give this some thought. This is one of those, you know, like in life, I think the older you get, and I'm, I'm a little older these days than I was. So, you know, there's a lot of nuance and, and I think that's the greatest thing about life is that there's just so many riddles, so many paradoxes. So, yeah, it's like when, when, when you, you stopped seeing. So I was raised at a generation where we were, we were being brought up at least, you know, a lot of my peers, to not see, not see differences. That was our thing. Don't see differences, right. Gender, race, color, like it was. That's what we were striving for. And then all of a sudden we move into a period in the last 10 or so years or more, you know, where we're going, you should really see that we should be seeing people in their diversity, etc. And it's like, wow, what a fine line between seeing something. Because I think the way you're describing it is, you know, yeah, we're not seeing it because it's. Why would we point that out? An athlete's an athlete, a performer or great broadcaster or a great person in business is great person in business, not a great woman in business. Right. I don't. I don't know, but it is a fine line. And I'm only, you know, saying it there to express my own view on it. But I think it is one of those things we gotta. We gotta chew on, you know, a little bit.

For sure, Adam. And, you know, it's interesting for your audience, right? A business audience here. One of the things that I've observed amongst great leaders in sports, right, and the reason I use the word audacity is because that's what I've seen amongst the very elite, is this willingness to take bold risks. And one of the ways that they lead audaciously. That's different. Is what I call a shape shifting leader, which is they are seeing the differences and they are leading according to those differences. The best example I have always is Phil Jackson. I don't know. Did you, did you happen to see the last dance during COVID I did.

And by the way, and I'm going to declare this out loud, I am a dyed in the wool Knicks fan. And so it's been painful. I was very, very young the last time they won, you know, the last game of the season. But Phil Jackson was a New York Knick. And then unfortunately, he became the coach of what I think is the greatest. The greatest team of all time, which was the Chicago Bulls and their two, three Pete's, you know, but, you know, yeah, Phil Jackson's a genius. Right?

Right.

Yeah.

And he's a shape shifting leader. And what we saw in that docu series, which is, you know, I saw it every day, but it's something that the rest of the world seen is how he worked with Dennis Rodman differently than he did with Michael Jordan. Michael Jordan not allowed to go to Vegas in the middle of the season for a vacation. Right. But he allowed Dennis Rodman to do that, recognizing that Rodman did not need basketball. That that wasn't Rodman's identity. That isn't what drove him. And so if he needed to have some time to blow off steam and to get himself together, great, because the Bulls needed him as the best rebounder in the game to reach their goal. Jackson as a leader was so focused on the one goal and leaving anything that did not interfere with that out of the equation. And I think a shape shifting leader in today's society is really, really accomplished at seeing, here's what drives this person, here's what motivates this one, here's the strengths of this one, and they're able to lead and adjust their leadership style according to the strengths, needs and abilities of those that they are leading.

Now, I'm not. You may be too, you know, like, you're probably too young to have been around to, to be at the, at that point in your career to interview him. Or did you, did you get to interview him while they were on their, one of their three Pete runs? Yeah.

Oh yeah. I started ESPN in 89.

Oh my God.

So I was around for all of that. And then of course, when he came to. So if you remember at the end, after they won the championship, Phil Jackson retired from basketball forever. Until the Lakers came at him with a $30 million offer.

Right.

He unretired and came to LA. Well, I was LA Bureau Producer at that point. And the reason that he came here is because the Lakers had a problem. Right? And the problem was the relationship between Kobe and Shaq. Because when Kobe came in, I was there at the forum for Kobe's first day of practice. And Del Harris arranged the Lakers offense around Kobe, who was an incredible scorer. And that caused a lot of friction. And so watching Phil Jackson step into that, that franchise and make adjustments and dial back Kobe's offense, first of all, he changed it to the triangle offense and, and push Shaq forward and get the ball to him or watching him kind of manipulate, manipulate sounds in a negative way, but I mean it in a positive way. This group to get the most out of all of them was absolutely masterful. Masterful. Yes. I spent a lot of time interviewing and a lot of time in that locker room as well, watching that dynamic change under the guidance of Phil Jackson.

All right, so I'm sure the people who are out there that are sports, you know, fans and not everybody is, of course, but they're great analogies. There's great business examples that come from, from sports. I want to, we can stay on basketball, but I'm, I want to say at this point in my life, I'm like an obsessive golfer. And, and it's not that I spend every day on the course because I don't, but I do practice and I do find time to think about the game. And, and it's very much a process game is, you know, that's how I think mentally you can, you can improve in that game is by really dialing, dialing the process. And I know you covered the PGA as well. I want to get a sense of whether it's in golf or it's in, in some other sport. What are, what are some of the things that you just think are tried and true lessons in sport that apply to succeeding as a leader in, in business? Because today business is really challenging in a number of ways. So I' new book that's coming out next year that's all about this cultural shift from sort of the cultures that went into the pandemic to the cultures that organizations ended up with after, after the pandemic. So there's this thing that's going on that is a result of that event. But then there's also this demographic, massive demographic shift from sort of baby boomers and Gen Xers that were running things and still some degree are running things to millennials and Gen Z that are for sure by 2030, 2/3 of the workforce and all that kind of thing. And so there's, there's communication issues, there's intergenerational stuff. There are other sort of challenges to the, to the space, including just a lot of uncertainty given what's happening in the markets and, and politically, geopolitically, et cetera. That's a lot. Are there some lessons that we can pull out of sport? Because sport is wonderful in the sense that almost the same. I mean forgetting all the money and stuff. But you know, baseball in Willie Mays day and baseball in Aaron Judges day, it's still the same game essentially. What are some of those lessons that we might be able to look at for business leaders?

One of the things that I've noticed coming through is there used to be this, this idea, Adam, of being like a well rounded, right, be a well rounded person, you know, work on your weaknesses. And I have seen that less and less. And certainly with sports there's specialization now this does not apply to golf. And yes, I did cover golf and you have to be great, your short game has to be great and, and I loved watching the intentionality. But in other sports there tends to be this focus on playing to your strengths. And I think in business and in leading that again, it's part of a shape shifting leader is recognizing what your strength is and then hiring the people who have different strengths to, to balance you out. I think it's far less frustrating now for the generations that are just starting their work career when they know that they can work on their strengths and their skills. Look, they don't. They're not a well rounded generation.

Right.

Because that's not the way that they necessarily grew up. And so being able to sport specialize, if you will, in business is a terrific thing. Like my ex husband is an accountant. And you know, you think of an accountant, you think of somebody very quiet, he's a partner in a firm, but he's the gregarious, outgoing guy. So he's the one who goes out. Right. And gets the clients. He's not the one who is credits and debits. And I think just even watching him in his career over the last 30 years, watching how that has shifted where people have said, here's the strength of this particular person and that's a skill set we don't have, so let's let him do that and we will get other people to do this. I think you see that in sports a bunch. Sad to say, Adam, you got to complete your entire golf game. Every bit of it is all you, but other sports for sure.

Yeah. And I love that. Have you used that term before sports specialize in business or did that something just came up for you?

That just came up for me.

I love that. And I don't. Emory, that's a, that's a repeat. I think. Okay, I really, I'm going to borrow it and I'm going to give you credit for. But this idea of sports specialized in business because yeah, it's like what if you imagine in business, let's say the equivalent. I can't hit a 30 foot, you know, I can't hit a three point shot. Right, right. Would you be taking three point shots or would you. Of course not put somebody on the team who can drain three point shots. Right. If you're great down in the post, you ought to be playing down in the post and they ought to be getting you the ball in the post to be, you know, a beast down there. Right.

I mean, exactly, exactly. That isn't the way we thought 30 years ago it was. You got to work on, you know, being well rounded and, and I love that there's been this change now throughout business and yeah, it aligns with sport. Do what you're good at.

What if, what if somebody says, well, maybe I'M I'm the jack of all trades or I'm not really great at any one thing. I'm sort of okay at a bunch of them. I know it's like I'm setting up these, these naysaying or.

Right.

The skeptic. But, but, you know, I think there's something to address there as well, because a lot of people don't have Kobe skills, you know.

Right. Most don't have. Right.

Like almost everybody. Like. Exactly. But I think in your life, in your, in your world, I think it's very important to figure out. To figure out what you are quite good at, what you're curious about and, and, and honestly, what you're willing to devote time to. Because golf, and I'll use this as the analogy. Golf is a really difficult sport. I mean, other than maybe Tiger woods, who at 2 years old or whatever, you know, is on the Merv Griffin show, whatever he is, you know, putting and stuff like that. Right. That's prodigy stuff. And, and that's. But it's also process, because he was trained from that point earlier even, you know, to, to, to do what he has been able to do. I think because it's so unnatural to just pick up a, you know, a metal stick and hit a little tiny ball, you know, try to get into a hole. I mean, it's ridiculous, right, that the, the way you go about making incremental improvement is through a process that will help you to allow your, your actual talents to come through. Like, we're all so much more talented. Here's my motivational speech for the second. We're all so much more talented than, than we realize. We're, we're often the ones that are the least aware of, of what we're, what we're truly capable of and what our, our genuine gifts are than even other people might be aware of around us. So there are challenges between the years, but process, I think, is super helpful. Right. Like when you look at Simone Biles as an example, what a great example she set for the, for so many people, it was controversial. So I'm glad, you know, we can talk about this for a second. I want to get your, your beat on this. When she took herself out of the Olympics two Olympics ago now, because mentally she just wasn't feeling ready. That was seen as, you know, there was a lot of debate around that, but I thought that was so brilliant that she put herself first and then understood what it would take for her to get back to a space where she could, could actually perform at her Best. Do you agree? I do.

And, you know, I think there's this idea in both sport and business that everybody needs to be a starter, everybody needs to be a star. You know, it's. If you're not the starter, if you're not the star, you're not performing, you're not contributing in the way. And that's not what it is. I mean, there is a bench of players who come in at the right time and do the right things to help propel the team forward, and you don't always know their name. So I think as a leader, you need to make sure that you feel that you, first of all, have your bench invested in the outcome. Right? Your. Your bench has to be invested in the success of your product, and they have to know their. No matter what the skill is. And I think great leaders do that. So that's one of the things, as you were talking about, I feel like there's this idea that everybody has to be a super producer, and they don't. Everybody has to have a value in there. For Simone Biles, in terms of taking the time. I mean, God bless her, she really showed people that it's okay to have that burnout, have that moment, step back and take care of herself, which is an entirely different conversation, really, in business is. Is making sure that when you are not at your best, when you just can't, that you have the space and grace to be able to say, I can't right now.

As you say, it's a different conversation. That's sort of the work that we do in the world is. Is looking at organizations where there's a lot of burnout that people are not even aware is happening. It's really very much under the surface. And. But yet, of course, the statistics, you know, Gallup and, And. And so many other organizations that are. Are saying to us how much anxiety there is, how much. Oh, yeah, issues in terms of people's engagement, etcetera, Are sort of fallen off a cliff. And in part, I think it's because they're. They're not willing to or it's not okay. There's not permission to do what Simone did.

Right.

To find that place, space, grace, to be able to take better care of yourself. Because again, and I sometimes say this to an audience, well, if you had an Olympic event tomorrow, would you have been doing what you've been doing for the last month, the last week, the last day, in terms of what you eat and what you drink and how you sleep and how you care for yourself mentally, emotionally, Etc, it's like, are you kidding? No. Right. So, but we, and we wonder why. I mean, these are, and these are, you know, multi billion dollar organizations that have a tremendous ripple effect on people's lives. And we, and we don't treat it with the same intentionality or care that we treat an athletic pursuit, whether it's team sport or an individual one. So that is, that is really interesting. Back to audacity for a second because, and this maybe is the way we land the plane here too. You know, when I observe leaders and organizations, if I was going to pick out one thing other than, other than this well being thing, which we won't get into at the moment, you know, the sort of it being an extraction model as opposed to something that's more nurturing, let's say. If there's one thing that I know noticed over and over again, it's that people don't make enough mistakes. So in resilience, like you, I define it in that sense of when we, when we know what doesn't work, we learn what does work. And you cannot learn what does work until you understand at a visceral level what doesn't work, which means you must make mistakes. And yet it's as if everybody's trying to get through life making the fewest mistakes possible. So on, on that side of audacity, how do you tell a leader that's, that's being judged by a board of directors or you know, is in that pro, you know, like in that structure where that's the judge and, or the marketplace, you know, the public shareholders of the, are the marketplace for that judgment. How do you tell people, or what's the context in which you say you got to take more risks and make more mistakes? Because it's easy. It's great to say it from a stage in a keynote, but I just want to understand your perspective on making that real.

Well, there's a couple of different kinds of mistakes, right? There's risks that are worth it and risks that are reckless. And a great part of being audacious, an incredibly critical part, is deciding which is which. And in order to do that, one of the key components, and there's so much in the book in terms of how to, how to do this, but I'll give you one part of it is having and creating a front row. And your front row are people who also are risk takers in their own path. They don't even have to be in your same area of business or scope. But these are the people whose opinions you do trust whose advice you will take because they have your best interest at heart without anything. So if, for example, if you're a CEO of a company, it might be a CEO of a different company who understands the pressures that you're in where you can talk with them about worth it and. And reckless risks. I'll tell you who's not in your front row. Adam. Your mom is not in your front row. Your best friend is not in your front row because they want you to be safe. Okay? And audacity and success in business is not about being safe. It is about taking smart, worth it risks that are carefully evaluated. And to have a front row of people who will push you, pick you up, challenge you, tell you the truth is absolutely essential.

Oh, my God. All right, I. I want to just contribute because you. You're inspiring me to just want to have a conversation with you, which is what I love about doing this show. I think I said that to you, but right before we hit record. Anyway, so I want to contribute my. My piece to that as well, which is to say on that, on that mistaking figuring out what's a. What's a worth it mistake versus. Versus one that is reckless. I think it's all. It also has to do with whether you're trying to be a perfectionist. I see a lot of leaders and a lot of people that work in that who are trying to achieve something that feel like they're trying to do it perfectly or they're requiring other people around them and you're shaking your head. So I want to get your thoughts on that to do it perfectly. Why does that not work, do you think?

Well, if you're putting pressure on people to do it perfectly, then you have effectively, absolutely shut down any ability to take risks. Because there is this moment of like, oh, I better quit while I'm ahead, which you will never hear a great leader say, ever. I will quit while I'm ahead. I don't want to. It's never about that. And so the pressure to do things perfectly, I mean, if you are not failing, sometimes you're not pushing enough for the risks. How big is the fail? Like I always talk about, okay, you're going to take this leap, pack your parachute. And I explained the parachute that I'm talking about is not something you can pull the ripcord and bail. It is to help you have a softer landing. So if you are going to not succeed. Right. That's my alternative for the word fail. If you're not going to succeed with this particular Challenge. What is your landing going to look like if you're pushing all your chips in? And it makes me crazy when people say, I'm going to start my business, I'm going to push it all in and everything. That's not wise. That's not a worth it type of risk. And so evaluating how soft can you make your landing if it doesn't work out the way that you intend the first time so that you have enough left to make a second swing.

Exactly. Yeah. I think that, that the, it's, it's the resilience there that really matters so much. Because this, this idea of not making mistakes, our research is the contrary, that the most resilient people, teams, organizations are the ones that have, that have made more mistakes, not less. Right? Yes. But they've on some level been willing to take more risks. And the last thing I just say on that is that if it's not perfectionism, because you've done this, so naturally I understand why, at least partly why you've been such a great broadcaster, because you've still got to, even if you point out what the issue is, you've got to show a solution if there is one, if you can point to one. Otherwise, like, well, what do we do with that? Right. So if it's not perfectionism, then what is it? And I think it's, it's impeccability, which is a different concept because to be impeccable means that to me, you're, you're fully committed, there's full commitment, just like in golf, you know, when. And they sometimes say this, that, that wasn't a committed shot and that's why it ended up in the drink, you know, or wherever it is. But that full commitment in the present moment is mutually exclusive with, let's say, multitasking or, or trying to avoid making a mistake. That's where, you know, putts don't fall and free throws, you know, hit off the back, back iron. Because somebody's trying to not lose and never, ever create success. No, you try, try to succeed so hard that you're certain of missing it.

It's Right, right.

We got to be loose, got to be more loose than that, right?

I mean, yeah, you have to have. I mean, again, it's about giving yourself a little bit of grace, too. I mean, it's interesting because on one side I'm talking about, like, push and take these risks and do that, and on the other side, I'm talking about giving yourself grace if it doesn't turn out the way you want the first time.

And it will likely not. I mean, we're being truly honest about it, right? We'll do this on a part two of this podcast. But I'm sure you didn't just get into the seat, you know, at espn. Good. I love it. So, like, it took you a minute, right? You probably screwed up. Probably heard. No. A bunch of times, right, Adam?

I mean, my first time on live television, because I was a producer first, I was supposed to be a sideline reporter on a little regional football game, like in the Mountain west, and, you know, somebody was unavailable, I got put on their games, and my very first time ever on live television was in 78 million homes on ESPN2. 78 million homes. I was outside Virginia Tech Stadium in Blacksburg, Virginia. I think they were playing Ohio State College football opening weekend. Sobbing, sobbing before going on ESPN2. Just what you want in your reporter. Just absolutely paralyzed with fear. And I was afraid of what? Being bad, failing, being embarrassed, being judged. It was horrific. And I went on the air, thanks to some encouragement, there's some words to that story went on the air, and I was bad and embarrassed and judging. But I survived it, Right. I said, of course I wasn't going to be good the first time, but my husband at the time said, emory, what's the worst that can happen? I always hate that question, right? Where people say, what's the worst? And I was like, oh, what's the worst? I could be so bad on air. This is what I was telling Matt. I could be so bad on air that not only will I never be on air again, but I'll lose my producing job because people won't listen to me when they see that I won't be able to do. And I could lose my entire career in television over this one risk that I'm making. And if I lose my career in television, I was telling my husband, I will be a miserable person and you will have no choice but to leave me because I won't be able to be a good mother to our kids who haven't even been born yet. And without a family and without a career, I could die destitute and alone.

Exactly. It always ends up. That's Dan Harris's thing from his book, right? 10% happiness. Right. It's like, I'm in Duluth and forgive me for saying Duluth, Right. Yeah, I'm in Duluth and I'm. I'm destitute and. Yeah. And then I die, right?

Yeah, exactly. And so, like anything short of dying, destitute student alone is a success. By that measure.

Right.

And so, yeah, I was bad on air. Okay. I survived. I got up the next week and went on again. And guess what? I was almost just as bad, maybe one half of 1% better. You know, that's. That's what it takes to be audacious, is to be willing to. To face that, to get comfortable when you're not looking so great and try and try again.

That's it, exactly. All right, well, let. Let's leave it there. I think it's, you know, it's. It's. It's fair to say that if you wake up or throughout your day, you don't have any moments when you get butterflies. If you're not getting some. Some. There's no nervousness or no nervous energy. Like, I don't care who it is. It could be Shaq. It could have been. You know, pick anybody in any sport, for example, and. And if they were great at it and, you know, they would. I don't believe they would ever say that they showed up to those games or to those opportunities without that feeling, because they had a pulse, it was important to them, and they were on their growth edge. And I think a lot of times when we're not in that scenario, like, you're in your job, you're in your role, whether it's a top spot or it's some other spot, if you're not feeling some nervousness around something, then you're probably not on your growth edge. And that's its own version of playing it safe or its own version of mediocrity.

Yeah, I completely concur just a little bit. I mean, people always say, like, get out of your comfort zone. I don't love the phrase, but it is. How have you. How have you challenged yourself? How have you forgiven yourself? How have you, you know, how have you tried something that seems just a little bit implausible? I like having. I like the surprise element of Audacity.

I love it. So say the name of the book again. I want certainly people to get out there and grab their copy of this.

Thank you. It's called Cultivating Audacity. Dismantle doubt and let yourself win. And for your listeners, if they're curious, you can get the first chapter of Cultivating audacity free@www.cultivatingaudacity.com. and then that way you can check it out, see what you think, and then if you like it, get the rest of the book.

Beautiful. And our folks know, and maybe there's somebody who's brand new to the show today we have full show notes that have links that are so easy to click and get right to those spots as well. So you don't have to remember, if you're driving, don't, don't start writing on your phone, you know, whatever you're doing, like multitasking. Right. Emory, such a great opportunity today to just get to know one another and have a conversation for everybody else's benefit. But I really feel just better for having met you today. So thank you so much.

Thank you, Adam. Thank you. I enjoyed the conversation immensely.

Awesome. Well, heck, yeah. Oh, my goodness. Amari is a powerhouse. I just absolutely love the tone of her voice. Clearly being a broadcaster for so long, you know, that that was the obvious, the way her mind works. She's just quite brilliant and, and very, I think, you know, looking at things in a different way, so not just intelligent, but intuitive and, and I was listening to her answer these questions that none of that was planned, you know, so just so you know, some shows, I think they, they sort of map out a bit of an agenda. They have some things. And of course, anybody who's had any media training knows that, that in some instances the guest shows up having already provided you with the questions. You know, like, this is the roadmap to have me be successful in being interviewed on, on a show, that kind of thing. And we don't, we just don't do that. So we don't, we don't accept questions ahead of time. We won't play from a scripted piece of music. And, you know, we're much more jazz oriented in that respect. And for the most part, I just find it more interesting for me and to sort of follow the breadcrumbs and see where they lead. And I know that that's what creates more, more sort of synergy and energy between myself and the guest. And therefore it's more interesting for us. It's got to be more interesting for you all. I hope, I hope that's the case. But of course you can always let me know if it's otherwise. Yeah, there's, there's a lot here, I think, that bears repeating. I'm not going to do that now. I think this is one of those episodes that you play back and you listen to and you, you know, play on a slower speed, not on a faster speed, as so many of us are doing these days, and that you share with a, you know, a friend, a colleague, family member, etc. I think there's a lot of, there's just a lot of Anne Marie's wisdom and of course, and I hardly ever sort of pitch this this way, but, but cultivating Audacity, her book, I think is an absolute must read. So in the show notes you can find the links, direct links to go get that book or of course you could just go to Amazon and look it up as well. But I just so love that conversation. She is a superstar, clearly. And, and we just, yeah, just enjoyed it so much and, and so if you did as well, please let us know. You can leave a comment. Go to AdamMarkel.com podcast to leave a comment there. It's also very helpful to us if you leave a review or, you know, provide the star rating. You know, five stars is the best. Of course, we'd love that. But whatever makes for you, if you can do that on the platform that you consume the show, it helps the algorithm in the way that only the algorithm knows to put the show in front of more people so that more people can engage with us and that grows our community and hopefully the ripple effect of the conversations that we have is making some better, you know, some difference for the better for people in their lives and in their business lives and all that. So that's the reason we do it. And we love the fact that we can ask for support and without attachment. So if you can do it, great. And if you can't, no worries. We love you anyway, for now, anyway, I would just say thanks again for being a part of this community and ciao for now.

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