Leading With Heart Through Crisis With Sanjiv Patel

Life happens, and not always the way we expect it to. Every single day we face change, stress, and uncertainty. What if you could learn to thrive no matter what life throws your way? Resilience expert Adam Markel and his inspiring guests explore breakthrough strategies to fully embrace change and build the resilience required to become change-proof.

Hey, everyone. Welcome back to another episode of the Change Proof Podcast. I'm your host, Adam Markel, and you're going to love the guest that I have in store for you today. I'm going to read his bio and then jump right in. Sanjeev Patel is an entrepreneur, board advisor, leadership coach, and creator of the podcast Just Another Lens, where he explores the real stories behind resilience, purpose, and human reinvention. He's built businesses, led one of the world's most impactful alumni mentoring programs, and most recently stepped into the global spotlight as advisor and spokesperson for the sole survivor and families of the Air India 171 tragedy. With a career shaped by navigating change at every level— personal, organizational, and societal— Sanjeev brings a powerful, human-first perspective on what it truly takes to rise and lead in uncertain times. Sit back and welcome Sanjeev Patel. Okay, Sanjeev. So I read your bio. I shared with our audience a bit about you. My first question just out of the gate is, what is one thing that is not, that is not a part of your bio that you would love for people to know about you at the beginning of this conversation?

Adam, firstly, thank you so much for having me on your show. That's a tough starter. What's in there that they don't know about me? Fun fact, I have lots of interests, so I don't define myself by a title. Hence, that's how you'll see me doing lots of things. I go where my heart leads me, where my gut takes me, and I find passion and purpose aligned. So I do everything from teaching young children in the community to championing lost causes where I feel that people don't have a voice, and I go and champion those. So I tend to find myself involved in all sorts of places by chance, by being in the right place at the right time, but I always kind of As I said, lead with the heart.

Yeah. I mean, how long would you say you could track that back to? Like, what's the earliest—

That's, that's a great question.

In your life, did you sort of started doing that?

I think from my earliest days, if I'm honest. So I come from a migrant family. Um, my parents are all settled in colonial Kenya, as it was. And when I was a little puppy, about 4 months old, they had to kind of shut up shop and leave and come to the UK and establish home here. In those early days, it was very much a matter of survival. So parents used to work every hour God sends. I have an older brother who's an absolute extrovert, whereas I was much more the reflective person. And I remember tuning in always to worry about how people are doing, you know, checking in on people, whether that's my parents, my immediate family, And then I just evolved into this person through the community and the extended family that people turn to when there's something that's a bit complicated or delicate. So yeah, from my earliest childhood.

And, and the specifically following your heart— I mean, if I count the times, or I should say I probably can't count the times because it's been too many to count, that I've, I've provided that as a piece of advice when asked, you know, what's one thing that you would say to young entrepreneurs or young leaders or anyone really in life? But usually, I'm being asked these questions in a business context. You know, what is that one piece of advice? And it's always been to follow your heart, to follow inner guidance, follow your instincts and the like. So, has that always been the case for you? And when did you recognize that you were actually even doing that?

So that, again, that's a great question because I was torn. The inside of me wanted to follow my heart, but I come from a family background where my parents, my father had a distinct pathway to get by in the world. And you won't be surprised to hear, I'm sure you heard of, listeners have heard a lot of times, you know, the traditional way, get a good education, work hard, don't complain, keep your head down. The only way to get ahead is to go to university. You have to do these subjects. And I kind of went down that path, but I really didn't enjoy it. So it wasn't me feeling this is my path, but I was kind of going down that path because I just felt I had to, because my father kind of didn't really give me much option. But I found myself at a turning point. I guess I ended up at a prestigious university studying something that I found absolutely boring. Brain deadening, you know. It's one of those things. But I used to just muck through, work hard enough just to get through, just to get through. And it didn't give me any satisfaction or pride. And I found myself at the end of that, you know, undergrad degree with a degree that on paper really was not much use to get myself into industry because I just scraped through. Fortunately, I found myself with a graduate opportunity, and I decided at that moment, on that moment, I'm going to be the best person, best version of me. but the authentic version of me, as far as that world's concerned, at least. So I guess that's the first time I noticed me going, okay, I'm going to follow my heart and be true to myself. Yeah.

I asked that question because I was curious how much the commonality there might be between you and I in that regard. I think for me, I give that advice or I've given that advice because I know it is probably the best advice that I've ever taken. And when I do actually take that advice myself, things tend to work out well in the end, whatever the end is. But at some point, you look back and go, yeah, that was a good decision. I, too, did not sort of follow that or that wasn't a guiding principle for me in the organization of some areas of my life, in particular business areas, for a long time. Probably at least 15 years that I ignored all the signs of being tired and hurried all the time and also agitated. So just things that were— that as you build something and you get some results and create some success, you would think that it would feel good. And At times it did feel good, but more times than not, it felt something— it felt differently. And again, my rationalization was, this is what you do. You know, this is the price of admission, and you just suck it up and, you know, grit it out. And I think there's a lot of people that that's sort of their genetic makeup, not literally, maybe so from programming and parents, but it was certainly the environment that—

Right.

that we were raised in and you follow along. I think that environment has changed. The pandemic was a pivotal point for that to be seen. I think the changes were occurring long before that, but that, I think, put it under the microscope that people no longer were willing to sort of just accept some mediocrity or accept someone else's vision for what their life should look like. So you are an entrepreneur. Tell us a little bit about what that— because the entrepreneur's journey is atypical. Well, in the United States, it's more typical, but I think in the world, it's more atypical. So what's it been like for you? And let's lead into a discussion of what's happening in the world of business today vis-à-vis what we've been discussing. How are these things influencing business operations and culture and the demographic, sort of the shift in how—

Yeah.

younger demographics are seeing this idea of their purpose and the value of their work, but also how it feels to do that work. That sort of equation is different for them. So I wanna leg into that, but what's your entrepreneurial journey been like?

So Adam, firstly, when you were describing this 15-year journey in business before you actually got to that stage, you made me reflect on my journey, because when I described the first time I started saying, okay, I'm gonna lead with my heart, I wasn't quite free of the shackles. So I was kind of being my own boss, I guess. So I, I started off in banking, and what I thought was going to be an agent of change, as they sold it to me, I realised pretty quickly that actually I'm sitting there with handcuffs on and wanting— having to play a corporate narrative, which doesn't resonate inside. So if I, I'm the type of person, if I commit to something, if I believe in something, I'll go for it. And if somebody gives me the tools to help somebody, I will go out and do that. And I was kind of held back in that environment. So I jumped ship and I went into kind of, that's the entrepreneurial journey started there from a zero starting base. I went into wealth management because that's my starting point. I think it's a good thing in hindsight that If people want to jump into entrepreneurship, that they try to rather than something radically different to what they already know, start with something you do know. And that's how it started. But that soon then got me to a stage where financially I was successful, successful, everything was there, if you like the trappings and the lifestyle. But something inside me just felt there's something missing. And that led me on to kind of explore stretching myself, understanding myself against others around in the world. And I Went on this journey of an exec MBA at one of the top business schools in Europe and in the world. Through that journey, it really was about kind of feeding off the energy of like-minded people who are in the similar sort of transitions in their lives, and then to see where that took me. Now, where that took me led me to find out more about myself than I've ever learned in my life that period. So midway through that journey. You're an agent, you know, you're somebody who's an open thinker, who's surrounded by people who are excited about transformation, making pivotal changes. And I got approached by somebody from a telco background, telecoms. I was from financial services. My old narrative would be, if I don't have the educational training for this world, I can't go into that. But my journey through the MBA said, hey, these are transferable skills. What do I do? What can I do that's transferable? And I find myself in What really, I guess, sold me this idea of being part of something massive, something global, where I can make an impact on a global scale. Financially, the numbers look fantastic on this business plan that was presented to me. The journey was anything but smooth, though. At the last minute of this, what was supposed to be a management buyout, the parent company went into bankruptcy protection. And the guy who had approached me to start this off said, "Listen, what do you want to do?" And I said, "Listen, if we believe our business idea, we believe the plan," which I guess I did. Let's make it happen. Let's put our own money in. And he pulled across a third partner, third investor director, and we started this journey. But business isn't a smooth curve. You see all these graphs, you know, business is on a straight line. But trust me, this is like walking through a hurricane. It was that kind of journey. Every single day, some new. curveball, some new dramatic situation. But we kept going, we kept going. And we got to this stage where everything suddenly seemed to line up. We had a route to market that was going to basically mean how many customers do we want? And it's just a matter of time. You know, we put the target in and we had all these global outsourcing companies who are going to acquire for us at our pricing model. Happy days. And I thought to myself, all of that hard work, the sleepless nights, the sacrifices we'd made, this is what it was all about. And I looked in the rearview mirror thinking my journey from university through there to here, this was what it was all about. But I was also clear that I wanted to do business in an ethical way. And what I'd experienced along the journey up until then in my kind of interactions with people is people didn't have a problem shortcutting someone along the journey to success. And I was determined to prove that didn't have to be that way. So this is why it becomes important. At this pivotal moment, one day this chap takes me for a walk at lunchtime. And he says, Sanjeev, you know what, you and I make this business tick. Yeah, true. He said, so this is what I'm suggesting. There's this partner in a large law firm, he wants to be part of this, he wants part of the action. He's a good friend of mine, and he wants to invest. So I went, okay, we don't need the money. Sure, I'm open to listen. And then he played the rest of the equation to me. He said that the way it would work is this money would come into the business. And that third director shareholder who would join forces with at the beginning, he needs to go for a walk. He's going to leave. I went, what do you mean? He said, well, you know, he doesn't bring the same value as you and I. So he's going to hand over his shares to the investor and the investor's money comes into the business. So let's make this clear. He walks away without a penny, the money comes into the business, and he thinks that's a good equation. And I said, that doesn't work for me. He said, this is how big business works. I said, I don't really care how big business works. This is how I work. I can't see— if he wants to be sold out or bought out, sure, buy him out. But I'm not gonna force him out. And I'm certainly not gonna force him out without getting fair value for whatever the business is worth, for his share. So that then became, you know, pause that conversation. A couple of days later, while everything was lining up, by the way, for our launch, for our big launch now, um, and he took me for another walk and he said, listen, he showed me 2 contracts, 2, you know, um, employer or employee director contracts. And he said, look, all of these expense contracts, this is yours, this is mine. It's lucrative. It has company cards, credit cards, blah, blah, blah, all the perks. You sign mine, I sign yours. And let's do this. So he dangled a carrot that basically he felt would make me go against my morals, my values. Now, given I'd worked harder than I'd ever worked, I'd maxed out my credit cards, I'd sold all sorts of assets to get to this stage in business, I didn't have a second thought but to say, no, I can't do this. And it came to a head 2 days before he and I were due to fly out, fly out to the launch operation. Where he called an emergency board meeting. And he went, okay, he created some scenario where, you know, the, the other partner wasn't performing his duties as a company secretary, we need to suspend him. But I knew where this was coming from. So I wouldn't play ball. He stormed out of the office. We're looking at each other thinking, what's going on here? And it didn't stop there. So the next day, we walked into the office, the door's broken into, and the hard drive from Our computers had been ripped out, fax machines had been redated, restamped, and our core data had been stolen. So that was the start of the most difficult 2 or 3 years of my life because we— he sent poison emails to our suppliers, our banks, alleging all sorts of misconduct. We couldn't get rid of him because some naive decision we made when we wrote the shareholders agreement that meant that we had to have his permission. So unanimity of shareholders to remove a director, naive in the highest sense, right? So but I didn't think of it at the time, it was just to protect everybody. I said, yeah, sure, I agree with this. So that journey, at the end of that, I realised that money didn't motivate me. I didn't need to wear a mask to pretend to be something corporate. What really was at the heart of it was my values, living congruently. And making a difference. It was a struggle, but I realized that the best version of me was that authentic self. So from that day onwards, I walk into meetings like this, not necessarily suited and booted. I walk in there authentically of who I am. And I made a conscious decision that if I can't be who I am, in every scenario, wherever I am, then I'm not in the right place. So that is where it all started.

Hmm.

Where it actually went Full-blown authentic me.

Thank you for getting into the weeds of it with us because I think so often we hear these stories of the pivot. I wrote a book with that title some years ago about reinvention. And we hear them at a high, high level. And the sort of the nitty-gritty of it, what I think we can relate to is more in that those smaller details. I think anybody listening to this could imagine themselves in that situation and the pain and the consequences of that decision that you made. Because a lot of— I think there's plenty of paved road, like well-traveled paths of people that would have done, you know, gone along, gone along, especially if it benefited them. And been able to sort of rationalize and sleep with the decision that That this is the best thing and whatnot. So, to be so contrarian, to pay the price for it in time and money and aggravation and stress and all of that takes a moral courage, a fortitude that most of us, I think, in many instances don't have. So, it's wonderful to hear a story of someone who has had that fortitude. I know for me, it took a great deal of pain before I had that— the fortitude to make the change. I left the formal practice of law after almost 20 years as a result of just sort of that ongoing, that repetitive pain point. I think the marketplace right now, it's an interesting one because there was, through the pandemic, a period where people were resigning from work because they were not maybe willing to go along, let's say, with some of the things that were not sitting well for them. And there was a strong enough market that they could find work elsewhere and were okay. Today— so that was called the period called the Great Resignation. And now the way the term, the new term or the term that's been used recently is one of job hugging. People holding on to jobs that they don't really love and they don't feel suit them, perhaps. But the market being what it is, they are still nonetheless kind of holding on to those jobs, et cetera. You work, I think, in coaching. I'm curious whether— are you coaching the employees to help them in terms of their personal evolution, their transformation as individual leaders, and even as just as people, or you find yourself more on the business sort of side of things, the management side of things when it comes to that focus of coaching? I'm just curious. And I don't want to make it an us and them. It's not an us and them thing.

Sure.

Because I think everybody's dealing with that. It doesn't matter what level you're at. You have these forks in the road where you have to make a decision. And again, All this started with this instruction to follow your heart. So I'm curious, is that, is that an element of your coaching? And, and who do you find yourself spending most time coaching these days?

That's a great question. My coaching style is very human-centric. So although I have this business experience, I have the, you know, the business knowledge, and I constantly read to try and, you know, stretch my mind and take in new input and new knowledge— I think we have to be a lifelong learner. I very much bring myself to people wherever they are in that spectrum, and especially with leaders. Leaders now, they find themselves on this treadmill, find themselves often doing things because they're conditioned to. They don't necessarily resonate with it. They don't necessarily find the purpose with that. And they come to me often with questions that are, I guess, symptoms rather than what they should be addressing. So when I approach a complex situation or a client approaches me, the first thing I do is stand back. You know, through all of the storms I've navigated, including, you know, a near-death experience with COVID early doors, what's held true to me is the ability through the storm to basically cut out the noise and be able to focus with clarity and calm. So whether that's individuals navigating their journey, I've been fortunate enough to, you know, train people from across the world and, you know, different stages of their career. But quite often the business leaders are the people you really need to get inside of, because if you can help them think differently, the impact of that transforms the way the organisation operates. So I very truly believe passionately when I sit on boards and I advise people at that end of the spectrum to really stop and rethink and reevaluate where they are in their lives, because very few people create that space or have the freedom or luxury to do it. So I'm that luxury that goes, hey, listen, I'll help you. Let's do this one-to-one or one-to-many. And the magic that happens through that, I'm sure you've experienced it a million times, a gazillion times, but simply just tuning everything out and getting people to reflect, describe their world, their scenario outside of the business helps them recalibrate how they're interacting with people. Start from inside. I always say you've got to start with the person inside. for any change. So you evaluate that to then evaluate the environment, which is the organization, and then the global environment around you. But not being, you know, if we've learned anything since COVID in the last few years, there is no certainty in life. We're surrounded by shock after shock after shock. So black swan events are, I think, a norm now. I don't think they can be called black swans anymore. It's just, but if you can embrace that change, If you can have a mindset that goes, you know what? I came with nothing. I go with nothing. In the meantime, I the people I love, the people around me, the people I have responsibility for, treat them as humans. Have that human-centric approach to leadership. I created a model called the Heels Model. I can share that with you if you'd like to. But that's my approach: people in mid-career to senior career, to try and get them to be the transformational leaders of the future.

Yeah, you know, it may well be that that's the best thing to do is to have you share that. My question, the question that was percolating for me a while ago was, is there, is there one particular piece of advice that you, that you, you have given to leaders or given to your clients over and over again? I say that because having been a business mentor and having spent a lot of time, as you say, a lot of time with people in leadership roles, there's some things that you tend to lean on as the right advice over time. Not every piece of advice over time proves to be equal. And there's some that just are more impactful than others. And I'm thinking of one particular thing that I typically will recommend, but I'm that's what's the genesis for my question to you. Is there one thing that you more often than not will say to a leader, knowing that that's as good as, you know, as good advice as you can possibly give?

Sure. Um, I'll give you 2 elements of that. One is certainly the start inside. Start with you. So instead of looking for problems and what's the problem outside, start with you. Assess yourself objectively. And you might need a few good people around you. Surround yourself with a few small number of good people that you can Trust who will keep you accountable, who will give you an honest answer and that you'll trust. And the other thing is, you don't have to have all the answers as a leader. So being vulnerable enough to go, I don't know, having the courage to look at a situation and not just follow the herd, but be— stand back and objectively really look at everything. And if it means sometimes destroying what you've been working on all this time because you got it wrong, be brave enough to do that. So starting inside, it always starts on the inside. Understand what's your— what's driving you. Is it emotion? Is it fear? Is it whatever those, those things are? How we are in our own worlds then tends to translate on how we react or interact with the rest of the world around us. So I think a great person, a great leader, is somebody who's calm, balanced, and reflective. So creating space for your people. without fear. So if you can create an environment where people aren't fearful of you, they feel safe around you, then they're more likely to be open, more likely to explore and innovate without fear of the consequences. Because I think that's how innovation, entrepreneurship, navigating agility all come out of that kind of culture and environment.

Yeah, that makes, makes perfect sense. Um, I, I'll answer the same question I asked, I asked you, which is, um, To me, the advice that I lean on more heavily again and again is something we refer to as the PAC method, the PAC method. But it's simply to pause, to ask, and to choose. And the pause piece is— I was thinking about it listening to you— is how important that pause is. And we're so quick.

Yeah.

The world has sped up. Everything has sped up, the pace, the velocity of change. of technology, of so many things is greater than it ever was. And the tendency, I think, is that we are a reflection of that in every area, and especially in our thinking and our processing of not only our thoughts, but of the feedback and the inputs that are all around us. And so to slow someone down, to be very intentional about pausing, to get to a place of neutrality, if you will, to Remove judgment, to not see things as good or bad or right or wrong or fair or unfair in the moment, to be able to breathe, sit, be in your body, just experience some neutrality or some stillness, even for a moment. I mean, I'm not talking about 10 minutes or 20 minutes. Some people can do that. That's amazing. And that's a skill and something that's worth practicing. But even to just get to that space where you can pause for a moment so that you can consciously ask some questions and allow there to be clarity or for some new information to emerge because you've— instead of sort of leaning into answer or being reactive in the moment because you sort of know how you've— what's being triggered in you and your feelings, etc., and letting that— drive things, to ask questions, to be humble in that moment, to not move forward without more information is one of the most powerful things to be able to then choose, to then decide, you know, I've got enough information right now. I understand enough to be able to respond, or I don't have enough information. I don't know enough. I'm not clear enough in my— understanding to be able to then make a choice. That's— it's just a very powerful tool that you can rinse and repeat over and over again, especially when you feel— you know, a good sign is emotions. A good sign is tension in your body, right? A good sign is, um, not knowing immediately how, how you feel about something, but then feeling that wave of emotion come. I should be offended. I should be angry about this. I should be upset. I should do something. I should hold somebody accountable, right? Or, or whatever it is that, like, those are good signs that you're in a reactive state versus a state where you've gone through a process that allows you to come out the other end better equipped to make decisions. Because ultimately, right, the quality of our lives is equal to the quality of decisions we make. Certainly, that applies for leaders and business decisions as well. Sanjeev, I know that you have been a trusted advisor to many, and I want to bring something up now because you said earlier that You know, there are events that happen and some of them are very unexpected. I, too, don't believe in black swan events. It's not, you know, what I think of in terms of the organization of the universe. But that's aside. There was a recent crash, a terrible tragedy, Air India crash. Many people have heard about it. The plane that went down where there was a single Sole survivor. That probably jogs people's memory if they're trying to figure out which plane crash, since there have been, you know, any number of them, and doors falling off and every other manner of thing. You've been an advisor to that sole surviving passenger, as well as to other families, right?

I have, I have.

And what— can you share anything without— you know, I obviously don't want to keep— break any confidentiality at all. Is there anything you can share about what that has been like for you personally, what it— What have you witnessed? I've never been an advisor or been involved at an intimate level in the aftermath of such a tragedy as that. So I have no idea what that is like.

Yeah, I'll be honest. I found myself kind of instinctively reacting on that day when that news was unfolding. Having been through multiple crises myself, trauma, Personal, professional, you kind of if you've experienced it, you know how it feels. And apart from the rational obvious that you could see this was unfolding, I felt it. I've got to be honest; I actually felt it. I could relive some of that pain. And so my immediate reaction was, well, okay, what can I do? How how can I help? So I went into action. So I mobilized communities, mobilized. I pushed back against the media who were trying to contact me. about contacting families that, you know, I may be in touch with. So my first approach was be there for them, but create space, protect them collectively. I was asked by one of the national news channels on that night, saying, what do you think the families are feeling? I said, listen, you're trying to make this a generic thing that everybody feels. Every single family is unique. Every single family will process this and deal with this in their own way. All we have to do now is let them know we're thinking of them, we're praying for them, and we're here for them in whatever way they need, whenever they need. And the repercussions, the ripples of this will be days, weeks, months ahead. And that became quite prophetic because over the next few weeks, I had various families get in touch with me to ask, you know, to deal with various practicalities of you know, their loved ones and how to, how to give them a funeral and those kinds of things. But also then in terms of the process ahead for the survivor, I've been through media storms myself, you know, the context. So I know when the media have a story, they get hungry for it. And so I instinctively knew that he was going to get bombarded full of it from every direction. And that's what it's been, by the way. So I can't share too much detail, but if you imagine the sole survivor, as the media would call him, the miracle man, walking away from this plane, He's had everybody from every walk of life you can imagine, basically trying to get a piece of him. Some, let's give them the benefit of the doubt, some with the right intent, but probably not executing it so great. But so many people coming out of the woodwork trying to take advantage of this poor guy, facing such a traumatic situation where he's lost his brother on the same flight. His whole world, his whole family's world is destroyed. And so for me, it was about the journey since then has been about protecting him, being that person. And it takes responsibility, right? So I did this voluntarily. I went, right, I'm going to do this. And people to this day still ask me, why do you do it? Because I can. And, you know, having that trust comes with responsibility, right? So I deal with that situation just like I deal with anything I'm working in the corporate field with, with 100%. And so we managed to keep him in a bubble for 4 and a half months. His home was, he was in self-imposed isolation at home. The media were camped outside. Social media was saying all sorts of crazy stuff, but I managed to, you know, manage it, control it. So the noise died down. We even got him back into the country, back into the UK where his home is without anybody knowing. But that journey of how to bring him here, that, you know, how do we do this? Do we take the risk of this? Do we take the risk of that? But we managed to do it. And so all I can share today is that the battle's ongoing for justice, for clarity, for accountability. And I see this not just for this sole survivor, but everybody impacted by this. Everybody wants answers and deserves answers and deserves to be treated as a human being, not an item on a spreadsheet, not somebody who's quiet, who's going to go away because they don't know any better. So that's the journey we're on. And I don't know where it's going to take us, but I'm determined to be with him every step of the way.

Is it fair to say that your decision to step into that unpredictable space was, again, a reflection of just following your heart? Is that fair? Is that a fair through line to describe it?

100%. There's no logic involved in here. As I said, there wasn't any thinking involved. This is right. Instinctively do this. What else? What else? What else? What else? And I didn't go and reach out to Vishwas, by the way. I literally, and I was very clear about it. No, I wasn't just telling the media, you stay away from these families. I didn't go. It was people reaching out to me. And then initially it was asking about certain things and then it became closer and closer. And then it just became, okay, fine. Everything from, you know, they were getting pressures and I'm sure he's not the only family where if you, people were telling them, if you don't do this, you'll miss out on this. If you do do this, this will happen. So all of this narrative, and I was trying to make sense of it. Have I been through taking somebody through something like this? No. But have I got the skill set and the ability to think about it and stand back, as you said? I loved what you said, because when you reminded me of what I said, when I came out of that hospital, and I said one word, just breathe, one phrase, just breathe. And I realized the power, just like you've described, of stepping back and just— Shutting it down and breathing. Because that creates, it cuts out that in your mind. And it helps you really calm down. And then like you said, get in touch with your body. Where are you feeling this? What are you feeling? Can you put a word to that? Is it fear? Is it anger? Is it some other emotion? And then knowing that you can only make the best choice that you, you know, the choice you make is the best choice with the best information you have at that moment. And not hanging on to the what if, what if, what if, what if, because that happens in life as well. So I'm not perfect, but that's the kind of way I think and talk. It seems to work.

Yeah. It's very powerful in— even in the story that you shared earlier, the connection between the two, because while they're very, very different, how you framed the telling of the story was that you were immediately put under this pressure to make a decision. with the threat of, if you don't make the decision, well, then things go sideways or things aren't advantageous. So react now. Here's something to help you, a little ethical bribe or what have you, something to get you to just make that immediate decision. And you resisted that. And ultimately, yes, that created— it had its own consequence. But it was, again, in hindsight, it's easy to see that the person that you were describing there wasn't a person you'd want to ever have been in business with. So if you could imagine having said, yeah, I'll sign the document, and business is business, all's fair in love and war, and all the other things we sometimes will use to rationalize that. Well, 10 years later, who knows what would have been the case?

Right.

or 5 years or whatever it might have been, but to be literally in partnership, in an ongoing relationship with someone that you didn't know was capable of that kind of behavior, I mean, that's, you know, that's its own thing. So, yeah, I very much appreciate the idea here that there's You know, in a broader context, there's a lot going on in the world. I think a lot of people, regardless of where they are, are feeling it. I think the world collectively is feeling a tremendous sort of weight, a pressure, a pressure in similar respect that, you know, that there's sort of a, you know, a need for some immediate— action or that there's this, again, this pressure. And I don't know what to do with that because I feel like on some level, the media or that there are other interests involved in having us, the population, the civil— the world's population sort of be as agitated and as— addicted even to the drama, the melodrama of everything that's happening. I think that that is advantageous to some and to many even, that is in opposition to the better interests of every— of the whole, if you will. I'm doing a terrible job of explaining how I'm feeling in this moment. I'm going to just ask you, Sanjeev, do you— Am I saying anything that's resonating with you? Maybe you could say it better than I'm saying it.

No, it really does resonate. So when I say I've been involved in media storms before, let me give you an example of a media storm. In 2022, in autumn 2022, I don't know if it got across to the Americas, but there were some riots, inverted commas, in the city I live in. They were described as communal riots. Now I find myself, because I just happen to find myself being around people and speaking on behalf of the community, where I saw rogue actors. I literally was on the inside seeing how this was played out. And a certain narrative was being propagated, had no foundation on truth, there was not a semblance of it. And I saw highly respectable people turning a blind eye to the truth to propagate a narrative which was then magnified by the media. I remember speaking to the media at that time, some of them, saying, hey, listen, here's the facts, here's the evidence, here's the photos, chat, whatever you need. And I was horrified at the response of some of these media companies where they didn't really want to know what was really happening. They decided the story, and that story was what was getting them clicks. And that really magnified— I guess instinctively we know that people have power, you know, I've known you people in media companies, the ones who own it, have massive power. But the amount that they can influence people's thoughts, patterns, how they can divide people, how they can get them to focus on things that they want them to focus on rather than the big picture, is immensely scary. And this world of AI that we're in now makes it even more dangerous. My advice to people is detox. Like we used to detox back in the day of substances. I think social media, we have to detox, you know, be very, very, very limited in your use of it. I think it's addictive, you know, dopamine fix, we know how it works. But it's created that way to make all of us conditioned, all of us in a certain way. And knowing how, having experienced fake narratives, knowing how people can, you know, rewrite or reprogram what you've said in your own words with your voice in the future, that's dangerous. So for me, I absolutely— I think that's what you're saying, right? There's people within power who want to control the narrative, want the masses to behave and think in a certain way for different agendas. You know, it goes across the world. I think as an individual, going back to being human, as a leader, as much as we can do remote meetings and all of these kinds of things, making a point that leaders meet leaders, people meet people, across the table as much as possible, wherever still possible. Because that is where you understand and build real relationships and cut out the noise. Because those demons that are created for us, those people who are those, is us against them. When you sit across the table, we have more in common with people. And we've always been that way, than we have different. And when people talk as people across the table, and socialize, understand the person behind the role, the corporate role, or the position that they're playing. then that's where the magic still lies.

Yeah, I, I feel like it's manipulation that the, that the us and them narrative is, is advantageous to those that are looking for your attention and time, etc. That it's, you know, when you say leaders, and I use the term in a particular way as well, I'm going to broaden that term to say we're all leaders. Everyone's a leader. Everyone's a leader at a minimum of the most important thing, which is your own life. You are the leader, the CEO of your own life. I know that sounds a bit cheesy, but—

No, I love it.

But it's the truth. And I think to take— as you say, trust means responsibility. It involves taking responsibility. So to be that leader, you really have to be responsible in that role. And I think if we're giving any advice, and maybe it shouldn't take that form, but rather just in this conversation, what feels true to me is that, yeah, I love— I often am advising people to detox from their technology for periods of time. I mean, I'm not giving up my phone. I have to say that.

Yeah.

And none of us are, I don't believe. And I use AI all the time, so I'm not saying that either. But there are periods in my day When I choose to not be involved— engaged at all. I don't start my day on the phone or on any technology. In fact, it's a period of almost an hour before I pick it up. I know that's difficult for some. You know, you could get up earlier. That's a choice too. Or you could make it 10 minutes to start, and then it's a half hour from there. Um, and, and ultimately, I choose that. I take responsibility for my being the CEO of my life and how I wish to begin engaging with a new day, the blessing of a new day, what can emerge from that, from creatively engaging with everything in the day. I personally feel like it's a choice that we make to be the in charge, meaning that you're the boss of you, in essence. And when you allow this what is a habit or an addiction to dictate how you spend your time and, and, and where your, your eyes go and where your, your time is, is, is being utilized, you're abdicating. You're giving some— you're giving your freedom away. You're giving away that, that ability to choose to be the, the decision maker. So that's all it is for me in some respects, is a question of who's in charge. Like, my phone is not leaving my— you know, this is a tool I'm not getting rid of. I just want to know I'm, I'm the one in charge of it. It's not in charge of me. The day that, you know, if you're being honest and you say, well, no, truly, I— it is in charge of me because I can't stop touching it, because I'm constantly looking for the dopamine that, that is promised through it, and I have, you know, it controls me more than I control it. Again, that's one of those questions, because if you ask that question, you know, who's really in charge here, and you answer it honestly, then you at least can choose Whether that's how you want to continue to be. You know, beautiful, as you said earlier, right? Nothing's perfect. You can forgive and in this moment make a new choice. But when you're conscious of what's not working and you still choose the thing over and over again that's not working, well, then you have to take responsibility for that. So, you know, I think it's where our world is increasing in—

Yeah.

elevating in consciousness, I believe, collectively speaking, at the same time as there are these other forces at play that are looking to take advantage of what are some unconscious instincts that we have. So, probably can't get into that anymore other than to say, I think, you know, us choosing to be the one making those choices, being the CEO, if you will, of your own experience, I think is profoundly— it is unique to every individual. It is a freedom that no one can ever take from you. You're born with it. You will die with it. It's ours. And no matter what else happens in your life, good, bad, or otherwise, that is fundamentally your choice. You know, I'll say this last thing, and then I want to get your thoughts. You know, Nelson Mandela is a great example of someone who had a very difficult road in life and spent, I think, 27 years in a tiny little cell locked up, as everybody knows, for opposing apartheid and for being a courageous leader, and emerged from that experience that would have killed many people or left them completely powerless. And he emerged from that able to lead a nation. transformational journey. And that couldn't have happened but for the fact that inside that cell, he did not abdicate. He was a prisoner physically, but mentally, he was free. And I can't think of any living example— there's many living examples, but he's the one that comes to mind for me that is the example of this principle that I'm glad we got to even touch upon today, Sanjeev.

Man, that's a beautiful example. And I think of Nelson Mandela. Mandela quite often when I talk. One of the things that I've heard about when he left the prison cell was a conversation about, well, okay, all of those people who've done you bad, done bad by you, right, done wrong by you. Now, I guess you're thinking about what to do. And the response that I remember hearing was, listen, if I carried those thoughts out of my prison cell with me, then I'm still prison bound. So the ability to let go, you know, One of the sort of frameworks I try and talk about, and you'll be familiar with this kind of framework, is it even in a micro moment? So even if it's a short time, or whether it's something that builds into your day or in a bigger picture, it's the ability to pause and reflect and then reframe and then reset from there and go. Because that allows you the freedom to navigate a different path. And for me, I create circuit breakers in my day, kind of like you do by the sounds of it. So the morning quiet space, and it's hard for people listening. I know, especially in this day and age, it's hard not to get straight onto the, okay, what's going on in the world. But that quiet space allows you to really think about your presence, being absolutely present. We talk about being present in front of other people. I think being present with yourself is where you should start your day. And then kind of how much of my life is autopilot and how much am I actually deliberately consciously taking control of? And like you said, who's in charge? Is it something else? Or is it me? So taking charge, and maybe just one little thing at a time, that's fine. And then at the end of the day, that circuit break is about, okay, so what worked today? What can I— am I— what am I proud of? What can I say, hey, this went how I wanted it to go intentionally? And from what didn't, what of that could I have controlled? The things you can't— couldn't have controlled, it's okay, don't waste energy on it. And the things you could have, okay, let's figure out what path or what I could do next time round going forward. And then that's it. It's a freedom. You let go there. So the ability to reflect, reframe it in a positive way, because we all make mistakes, right? We're all human, but not to hang on to it as baggage. But like you said, learn, right? As long as you learn, and if you don't, then you take accountability. Being knowing that you have ownership and control. Is fundamental to us as human beings. I think even in the most difficult situation, I say to people, you asked me what do I say to people, you have a choice. The choice might not be the choices you want, but you have a choice. And the moment you consciously acknowledge that, and that choice, you suddenly take control again. And that's such an empowering place to be.

It is. Yeah. Sanjeev, I've so enjoyed our conversation. I feel like I could talk to you, I could talk to you, with you for hours. I know our Our audience has enjoyed this tremendously. So I'll— as we wrap up here, I'm going to ask you one final question and then also to our audience. If you've got further questions, you've got questions for Sanjeev or for myself, you can go to adammarkel.com/podcast, leave your questions there, and we'll certainly answer them. Sanjeev, what is one thing that is a go-to every single day for you that you do for your own resilience? To reset, to refill the cup? Is it the process you just described? Is it something else? What's that one thing?

I think the one thing I would say to people is it's never too late to reset. So just breathe and take one micro measure to start the journey for transformation, wherever that leads you to. But you need to, like you said, just breathe, take a moment, and pick something and Do something small and build on it.

So just start in this moment.

Start in this moment.

Beautiful. I love that advice, Sanjeev. I appreciate you very much, sir. Thank you for going there with me today. Thank you for talking about those difficult things as well. And, um, and we appreciate you. I appreciate you. And, uh, once again, thank you.

Thank you so much for having me. It's been a pleasure. Thank you so much.

Absolutely love that conversation with Sanjeev and And listening to him share very much from the heart, very congruent, just listening to him talk about following the heart and then watching and experiencing him speaking. It was a felt experience for me, not just, not just one of the head. It was definitely something that I could feel as he was sharing difficult times in his life, as well as the kind of work that he's doing currently to help other people through very, very challenging times. I loved his advice and the frameworks that he shared on how it is that we address the current moment. What do you do in the present moment other than be present like everybody says? Be present, be present, be present. What does that actually look like? I think he gave us something really concrete to hold on to there so that you can, in this current moment, this micro moment, like a tiny speck of like a grain of sand. In a sea or a beach of moments, too many to keep track of. What do you do in this moment to be able to make a good decision for yourself, to take responsibility for making better decisions again and again and again, and then letting go, forgiving the poor decisions of the prior moment, if you will, or moments in time so that you can then adjust, readjust, recalibrate, and move forward on a better path for yourself. As leaders, as leaders, we're all leaders, as we said, leaders of our own lives as well as, in many ways, leaders in other people's lives as well. If you enjoyed this episode, if this was something that resonated with you, please share it with someone else that you know, family, friend, colleague, etc. And of course, we always are so appreciative when you let the platform know the platform that you're consuming this podcast on, that you thought that this was valuable content, to provide a rating in the— in this, you know, with the number of stars that makes sense. Those things are helpful because it allows the algorithm to recalibrate and put this content in front of more people, which is helpful to us and obviously helpful to our community. So I thank you for taking the time to do that if you are so inclined. For now anyway, I'll just say once again, it's a pleasure to have you be Part of our Change Proof community. We thank you so much, and I'll say ciao for now.

Thanks for listening. We hope you now have even more tools and greater insights to build resilience and become Change Proof. Remember to leave a review on Apple Podcasts, and you may be featured in an upcoming episode. For more resilience tips and strategies, including support for building Change Proof teams, visit adammarkel.com. To get your own free resilience assessment, go to RankMyResilience.com. Thank you.