Closing the Loop Is Like a Ghost: Don’t Do It and It’ll Haunt You

You know what I call them Pops. Detractors are pissed off promoters.

Hi, I'm Adam Durrell and I'm the host of the Account Experience podcast. And if you're a regular at the AX Podcast, you'll know that in every episode I like to catch up with inspiring industry leaders or thinkers, you know, to share best practice and tips to help you develop your very own B2B Account Experience program. So, you know, we sit at that busy intersection of B2B account experience and where it crosses Customer experience. So I guess think of us as your very own Times Square of Account Experience. Today I'm really delighted to welcome again CustomerGage's very own VP of Customer Experience, Carey Self. Now, just let me give you a few words about Carey. He's got a rich experience in many industries, which he brings the Customer gauge and of course with our clients, he was with Gamestop, although the rumors about him being behind the run on it, I don't know, somewhat. I think, let's say he just sold at the right time. He was with the Container Store and he was also a Customer Gauge customer when he was at areas. And that was a firm which dealt with concessionaires of food, travel, plazas, airports around the world. And if that is not related to the CPG industry, I don't know what is. Hey, welcome, Carey. It's great to see you today.

Love being here. I always love hanging out with you, especially in the middle of Times Square, all the lights and everything going on.

That's where I'm going to be tomorrow, man. Got a short vacation in New York City. I guess that's why I brought to mind. So I will be sampling the city. Anyway, how are you? What have you been up to recently?

Wow, been busy. I mean, of course there's always a lot going on with customers, but we're really excited. Later this week we'll have our Champions of Change webinar series Part three, where we'll dive in a little bit. Really empowering the people in these different companies and organizations that create change through culture and different programs. So really excited about that.

The crowds for those things have been really amazing. More than at a Kamala Harris rally, right?

I'm not going to share any pictures of my rallies, but no, I would say they've actually been really insightful. I think a lot of the feedback afterwards too, in the conversations around them, I think there's a lot of companies trying to create this culture of change and I think it kind of leads into what we'll even be talking about today. One of the key parts of that change.

Great. Actually we picked a topic to talk about today which is really all about follow up. It's about follow up being non optional. It is a must that you need to do and I think it's really close to our heart. But I, you know, I remember how this started. It was with Camilla, our chief operating officer. She said that she just came off a flight. I'm not going to mention the name of the airline, klm. But they sent her a survey and she was just like, I can't believe it. I've answered so many surveys for this airline and they never do anything with my, with my feedback. I never hear from them about what they're doing with it. So she, you know, she grumbled about that for a bit and then she turns to me and she says we should only do business with companies that want to close the loop or follow up their customers. And I thought that was a really, actually a really good revelation, I think. How do you feel about that?

You know, it's. Think about it, Adam. We always hear survey fatigue from people and I don't think the fatigue comes from being asked questions and wanting to reply. The fatigue comes from responding and not hearing or seeing any actions based on it. Don't ask me if you're not going to do something with it. So I love this concept and idea.

Yeah. And I think it really, it really, really struck home for me. I checked, by the way, something like, I think all of our new clients, well, in the last three years, I think since COVID they're all really embraced the mantra of following up fast. We'll get into some of the metrics on that. And I think I look, I think at least 90% of all of our client bases are closing the loop and I would say a somewhat satisfactory way. So I'm really proud of that. And that's, you know, it's pretty good, I think. So Some of our clients, I think are just, they're not quite there or they never will get there. But I'm really pleased that certainly for all of our B2B clients are doing that stuff and we've been measuring it for detractors. Maybe Carey, you can unpack that a little bit about how we measure this internally.

Yeah. You know, I think we've prioritized detractors because they're kind of the fire that we always talk about putting the fire out. I always love to say, you know, detractors are just really pissed off. Promoters, you know, they want to love you. They have really high expectations. But something in that relationship has ticked them off. Right. Has. Has gotten them upset. And the reason why we think it's so important is if you can follow up with them, they're probably the easiest group to turn into promoters, you know, raving fans that are loyal. So when you think about that, we really talk about, can you get back to them? Can you follow up in a quick MANNER? We say 48 hours, but we're starting to see that push to 24 hours that most of the companies that we work with take it very seriously that it should be within 24 hours.

Yeah. Actually, let me just check in with you because why 48 hours? Why did we adopt 48 hours as a sort of a limit to get back to people?

Yeah. I always like to set up a scenario to explain this, but imagine something has just upset me and a survey comes in and the wording is usually, this is very important to me, to us. We want to hear from you. So I give feedback that's not great. And I drop a really low score in there because I really want them to take it seriously. And for me, emotionally, I'm there in the moment. I'm tied to it. I'm waiting for someone to do something about that. And if I have to wait to go to bed, wake up the next day, and still no response. Yeah, I'm starting to scratch my head. Is it even important?

Yeah.

And when you get outside of two days or 48 hours. Yeah. It really doesn't feel as important to them as it did to me in the moment of me filling that out.

Yeah, I really agree. Our best clients are pushing. They normally measure it as in the percentage of detractor follow ups that are done within 48 hours. And our really good clients are at 100%. And that's when we're thinking about what about if we start to think about 24 hours is a good baseline to start really challenging them. But in any case, I think that getting back to someone in a smaller number of hours is always better. So I really.

If you look at like if you've been to our awards that we do throughout the year or even monetize, we have a company like Briggs that doesn't even measure it in days, they measure it in minutes. Now you know they're getting back in hours to 100% of all feedback. So. Yeah.

Okay, so there's a couple of things to unpack here. So first of all, I want to attack the point about most of our clients are really thinking about detractors but let's think about that because you just said that. I love that pissed off promoters. What about passives and what about promoters? How do you deal with those? Do they need to be follower?

My answer is going to be yes. You know that 100% right? If you truly are covering all of your account and all your revenue, which we talk about all the time, you should survey everyone, reach out to every relationship matters, then I think it's important for you to follow up with any feedback you get in. And I think both of us know, I mean we work for an organization, we're getting back to 100% of the people within a few hours is hard. But there are other ways you can kind of streamline that or at least make it a little bit easier. But if we start with promoters, you and I both know how important it is to get back to promoters because that is your referral business.

Yeah, yeah, for sure.

That's going to lead to more business. So if your front line isn't owning this, if they're not jumping on every single 9 and 10 that you get in, you are leaving money on the table.

So it's clear cut case for detractors because you want to try and follow up what the issue is that's bugging them.

Right.

And saying that. We hear what you're saying. For promoters it's a very much a clear case of going wow, thanks a lot, we really appreciate that. Is there anybody else you care to share this with, some recommendation? And then what about the other category, perhaps maybe the most troubling for many organizations? What do they do with passives? Yeah, you know, people are getting, you know, seven or eight. What did that sit in the passes?

I think your biggest risk actually. And you know we talk about this all the time, promoters are going to are cheering for you, they're loyal detractors. You haven't met their expectations, are getting back to you. But these passives kind of move into this in different place where they're kind of ready to leave you. I mean, there's only one more group that we haven't mentioned yet. The non respondents, which are equally on the same plane as a passive, they're indifferent. It's kind of like coming home and saying to your, you know, your significant other, hi honey, I'm home. If that person doesn't talk to you or just goes, you know, love is lost. Right. There's no passion in that relationship anymore. And yeah, I think there is definitely a high risk in not getting back to your passives and non Respondents.

Yeah, I tell you, I think if we were to game it out, it's kind of like, look, we. Thanks for giving us a score. I mean, they might think seven or eight is a good score. So it's unpicking it, isn't it? It's about. I'm curious tell, you know, I mean, you can do this with all the categories actually, you know, what led you to that score? It's really one of the best questions to ask. But to sort of say, hey, you know, seven or eight, what would it take to get us to a promoter, you know, or a 9 or a 10. I think that's a really good question to say, what could we do to really excel your expectations? So, yeah, it seems to be a good one. But I want to introduce a couple of concepts here. The first thing being about the mission of customer gauge as a company, I mean, we always speak about deepening human relationships through feedback. You know, we're not survey company, we're about making sure that companies have a better relationship with their clients. So let's unpack that. Carrie, how do you see that the closing the loops helps with that? Deepening a relationship?

Yeah, you know, I think you kind of hinted to this too. What we were just talking about is you start to understand what these relationships, what the value is in these relationships. You know, at the end of the day, we have contracts in place, agreements, we agree to provide each other with something, but it's almost a handshake and an agreement that I'll do my part if you do your part. You know, and I think that is the core of any relationship is are we living up to our expectations? And you know, I think we go through and assume a lot of things without hearing or talking to our customers. So, you know, the goal of this is not just to put an issue to bed and close the loop necessarily. Right. We should be feeding the loop. We should be trying to find ways to have more and more conversations to understand what our customers want and need.

Yeah, I love that. I think it's about being curious. I mean, do you use that in your relationships? You know, do you talk about relationship check ins? Is that something you do?

Oh, I do. My team does. I think I'm always looking for an opportunity to have a conversation with someone. I mean, just being curious by nature helps. But then how do you tie that, what you find out back into the business and the relationship to make it better? So most definitely, I think, you know, I have an entire team that's on the front line right now. Who? Every single day, multiple times a day. I mean, it feels weird. We're crawling through your company and your business. We're asking all kinds of questions, but we are genuinely, you know, curious.

Yeah.

Because we want to strengthen the relationship. We want to be able to be there to help and add more value.

I also like to liken this to romantic relationships or, you know, the relationship you have with a significant other. It's about saying, hey, how are things going? You don't have to do it in such a formal way, but it is that. Curiosity is like coming home. Say, how was your day? What happened? That must have been tough. Tell me more about it. You know, and it's such an important thing to do in a relationship, and you need always have to solve it. I think this is a classic male thing to do. Oh, my God, you should have done this. Sometimes it's just good to go. Oh, man, that was terrible. Do you find that at all?

No, it's a. I laugh because, you know, you're right. We are quick to want to fix, put it out, put the fire out and move on. But I do think curiosity ties to that commitment to that relationship and that passion. And I think the more curious you are, the more you can talk about and listen and then reflect back. I think you do a great job, too. And, like, even here, you do a really great job at reflecting back when you hear things, helps build that relationship and leads to one thing. Trust. Right. That's where loyalty comes from, is the trust.

And not to put too fine a point in it, businesses that trust each other or, you know, people that trust each other, I think are more likely to do more business together. And actually, the stats bear this out. But let me move on to another topic. So we're talking about human relationships now when we sort of have two interchangeable phrases. We say close the loop and we say follow up. I want to unpack those. Do they mean the same? Do they tell us how you treat this in your world?

Yeah, I think close the loop is a standard in the industry, in all industries lately. And I think for me, I put close the loop more on the level of closing the loop on an issue or a particular piece of feedback, not the relationship. I never want to close the loop on a relationship. Right. That's like kind of saying, okay, enough, it's done. You know, you never want to say that to someone, but I would like to say, hey, I heard you on this one point, and this is what we're doing about it. I'm going to follow up in a few weeks to make sure we kept our promise. And at that point, we can maybe close the loop on that one thing, But I want to continue to feed that loop or follow up with you on other feedback and other conversations. That's where it becomes kind of mutually beneficial and bidirectional. Right?

Yeah, I like that. Can I share something with you? We had a few German clients back in the day. They were very much like, we need the process to close the loop with the customer. When do we go back to them? Because it might take us three months to close the loop to really solve the problem. And then we go back to them. I'm like, ah, you're kind of missing the point. The customer knows you're going to solve it. But the point about this is that you need to go and say, hey, we hear you and you need to do that fast. And I think so. That's one part. Isn't that about closing the loop?

Look, I won't even tell you how many years I've been doing this because that'll really age me here. But the number one thing you try to teach people is, I know everyone is driven to solve the problem or make the problem go away, but just doing what you said. We heard you.

Yeah.

Sometimes that makes a customer who's upset, irate, frustrated, or even just indifferent go, wow, okay, they heard me. That's enough to get them over, to kind of get things moving. I think just being heard is so important.

It's really funny actually, because we were talking earlier on about a live issue that we got with the client. Long list of things that. Things that this client would like us to do, you know, additions to the platform. And I think we're, you know, we're sort of thinking, oh my God, you know, this is a disaster. We don't know. We need to check in and say, hey, what's wrong? Is a wish list. Do we need to prioritize it? So rather than being frozen in fear sort of closing the loop, we just need to follow up and say, hey, we hear you, we get you.

It sounds crazy. I mean, these billion dollar industries and simply just saying we hear you could be a step to really building that loyalty and that trust.

Yeah. And there's one other thing about close the loop. I think closing the loop is a very much an internal phrase that as people in the back office use. You need to close the loop with the customer. It's really like you need to wrestle that, you know, the thing to the ground and sort of it's Possible for somebody in the front line. I think follow up is so much more friendlier.

Yeah, I think we, in this world where we want everything to fit in a box and be categorized and especially as leaders of an organization, you know, we want to look really quickly to see is our team doing what they should be doing. Close the loop is fine for that back of house. But yeah, I think follow up definitely feels a lot better.

So let's open that up because to me it seems closing the loop is a finite thing. You know, most of our clients have got long, long relationships with their customers. So you always talk about spreading out the feedback and sort of dripping it. Can you elaborate on that a bit more?

Yeah, you know, I guess I always come from the place of how can we make this easier? I think when something is easier, more people adopt it, more people buy in, and more success comes from that. So one of the things that we really talk about a lot and we really work on is, you know, instead of sending all of your requests for feedback out, your surveys out on one day of the year or twice a year and bombarding your entire workforce with all this possible incoming feedback, why not be smart about this? Hey, spread this out over weeks, over a couple of days every week and over weeks. Now what we have is kind of this drip or this trickle effect of a little bit of feedback coming in. And I can now fit that into my weekly schedule. You know, I can now address a couple of pieces of feedback that's a benefit because it's less workload for me, week one, week two, week three. But then we can step back and see, hey, are these changes in this follow up that we're doing having an impact on our business? Does the results or does the feedback start to show a trend that we're actually hearing our customers and we're actually doing something with it?

Yeah, I think that's a really, I mean, it's such a no brainer. But where companies are not doing this, then is this a technology issue? Is it a culture issue or what's stopping people doing it throughout the year?

I'm going to say working in a technology company, it's not a technology issue. We can get it done right. So I want to put that one aside, but I understand getting re. It sounds complicated. Yeah, but it actually, it's a lot easier than a lot of companies think. I also think culturally we sometimes like, we want the feedback, but we don't know what we're going to do with it.

Yeah, that's true.

And I think it has to be embedded in the culture. I also think that the whole company has to own this. This is also a big topic I love talking about with everyone. Like, if you've only got three or four people handling all this feedback, are you really building a culture or are you building more of a shield to protect the company from? So I think the more you can get your front line, the people that are really the face of your company and that next level up involved in the feedback, then I think there's a huge, huge benefit to spreading this out and making it much more manageable. But we talk about trust between customer and business. This now becomes a relationship of trust between leadership and Frontline. You know, do we trust on Frontline to own the business?

Well, actually, this is interesting. I love an acronym. So before we were talking about pop Pissed off promoters. I love that. So word for detractors. And then we got fof. What's that? Fear of feedback.

Yeah.

And that. This is. I mean, we're human, right? I mean, it's. We never like criticism. Maybe this is one of the reasons that companies don't like to do the drip. They like to save up all the pain and get through it in one go. But I've got a really good example. And I think you've met Jenna Betto from Briggs Equipment. I mean, she's. They've got a way of just embracing feedback in the organization. And I was reflecting with Nigel Tordoff early on about this, that that's a predominantly male culture that she's working in. It's in the construction industry. No judgment about that. It's still relatively male, and yet they've got this wonderful way of really dealing with feedback. They welcome it. Please tell us what you think. And they run after customers to try and learn more. I love that. That's a real culture change in that business.

Yeah. I think I celebrate what we do too, here, Adam. I mean, we've got a Slack channel that's constantly open and we don't shade it. We don't hide it. Every piece of feedback that comes in gets shared with the entire organization. We get to see it live.

Yeah, that's really true.

This podcast is sponsored by CustomerGage, and they're the experience leader in the CPG market. Let me tell you why they're contacting more people in the independent, independent trade, in modern trade, than any other customer experience company out there. And you'll know the brands that they work with. We're talking Coca Cola, AB, InBev, Heineken. Just E takeaway they're literally pulsing millions of contacts around the world in more than 60 countries multiple times a year, delivering those insights to thousands and thousands of frontline employees in those companies. But you know, it's not just the CPG business. Customer Gauge is famous for. They're ranked number one for B2B customer experience by Gartner. However, if you're in the CPG business and you have not contacted Customer Gauge to understand what is going on in your business, you're seriously missing out because we know there are other people out there just doing it once a year. Well, Customer Gauge gives you customer insights 52 weeks a year, right to the front line in real time. It's going to absolutely transform your business like nothing else. But don't take our word for it. Listen to the podcast and they'll tell you exactly why.

Even so, I know from personal experience it can sometimes be hard to think about. Oh my God, you know, this is what do I do with this? So I really love the fact that we also have a service level agreement. We are ticking down the hours to the deadline of 48 hours to do this. So I shared the fear that other companies have, but it is possible to do this. Have you got any other examples? I mean, have you got any sort of poster children of companies that are really good at doing this, spreading it throughout the year?

You know, I think of some of our larger, you know, CPG clients too, and what they do. When you look at something like, you know, no secret that we work with Coca Cola, you know, in different regions and they've been at monetize and talk to us a number of times, but the fact that they're dealing with millions of points of sale and transactions a day and they're able to not only get that feedback in real time, respond to it, but we have someone like, you know, Coca Cola bottles in Japan who have made it so important that they've got champions peppered throughout the organization. They take this feedback and they literally sit down and go, okay, we're going to work on this. What are we going to do as a team, as a department, as an organization to address this and do something about that. And it's inspiring. It's, you know, for companies that are 100, 200, a thousand people to look at a company that's in the hundreds of thousands of people, it's pretty impressive to see that level of action being taken on that feedback.

I think that's a really good example. We always think of Japan as being a very hierarchical country, but this is a really good example where the they've only been able to empower the frontline, sort of samurai heroes, so to speak, to be armed with customer feedback and deal with that. I think it's an incredibly powerful story. Yeah, that's a really good one. And I think the other thing that we've also seen a success is those organizations where they do send it out in every week. It's a continuous flow of feedback into the organization, which I think helps people flex those muscles.

And then to answer one of your first questions, you know, how can we make this easier? And what are some of the ways you can close the loop with all of your respondents is then communicated back to your customer base? You know, be brave. Once a quarter, send out a message that says, hey, these are the top three things that I felt as the leader. You're the CEO, right? You do this for us, Adam. And it's like, this is what I heard. This is what we're going to work on. This is the promise I'm making based on the top three or four things. So think about that message you're sending out. Not only have we individually close the loop with these people.

Yeah.

Then we've circled back and said we're making a commitment as an organization, too.

Actually, thanks for saying that because I have a template for this, which I, by the way, I always share, which is like, I like to pick at least three things that we learned from customer experience in the last quarter. We try and do this every quarter, but it's like, okay, this is one thing we learned, and we've already implemented it. We've done it. Second thing, we learned this, and we, you know, we're working on it now. And the third thing is something we're going to work on in the future, so it gives that nice continuation. Then I always try to come back and say, hey, we heard from you. We did it. You know, you do. We say, I really like that. And by the way, I think the best reason for doing that sort of thank you letter is to send it to non respondents as well. Because then you are teaching people that you are listening to the feedback and you don't have that airline moment that our COO Camilla had, which is like, it's just a black hole that I tip my feedback into.

But how much better she would have felt if even a couple of days later she got an email saying, we heard you. This is what we're doing. You know, I mean, then she's like, okay, egg on my face. I've been upset about it, but they did something and, you know, it's never too late to respond. That's what I would say. I get it. We want it to be quickly. We think it has a bigger impact.

Yeah.

But now is an opportunity to go back and look back and say, hey, it's not too late to say, we heard you and we're doing something about it.

Yeah. Hey, listen, Kerry, let's move on to a little bit about some of the practical ways that we can help. Like, you know, we hear from customers. Because some of the things that customers say, well, how can we do this? How can we assure our clients up front that we're going to deal with their feedback? Because sometimes it comes to the first time. You know, is there anything that your team are working on to put some meat behind the bone on this?

Yeah, I think there's. Well, first off, I think, you know, from day one, we kind of tell them that because we're living in the same environment that we're helping them create. So any feedback that we get, we're going to respond to. We ask them to do the same with their customers. So it's almost an agreement, a handshake that we make a promise that we're going to model the same behavior that we're going to ask you to model with your customers. So I think that's really, really important part of it. Also what we talked about earlier, making it easier for them, making it manageable, showing them how it can be done. So being that model, but also helping them kind of roll that out and see what that looks like.

You've got some materials in the academy, I guess, that are coin kids to help.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Our Playbook. I love talking about our courses that kind of enable and empower, you know, frontline all the way up through leadership. I love talking about the stuff that helps our customers use the software. But my real baby, the one that I really get excited about is our Playbooks. And our Playbooks are really established to say, hey, if you're not getting enough feedback, here's a playbook, a literal playbook of how to increase that. Or if you're not getting to closing the loop quick enough or you don't have a plan around that, here is literally a playbook to kind of roll that out. So our AX customer gauge, AX Playbooks are exactly designed for this that will allow you to go through and go, this is where we're at, benchmark where you are and give you step by step, things that you can do internally within the organization. But Also provide you with tools that our software can help do that to get done for you.

Yeah, brilliant. I know that you often put tips like this on your LinkedIn feed as well. So people want to follow you. How do they find you?

Oh, you can find me easily on LinkedIn or join one of the webinars. Come also to CustomerGage.com I mean, we don't hide our resources. It's one of the things I was, why I was such a happy customer and why I wanted to join the organization. But we kind of have an open environment where we really are trying to make this B2B and CPG world better relationship wise.

We certainly share.

Maybe overshare is probably we might overshare. It's for the right reasons.

I want to leave sort of where we're going with this because coming up in the next couple of months, we've got the CG Awards at the moment, I think scheduled to come up in the end of September. Really excited about those, which is where we showcase the bold, the beautiful and the best. Yeah, the B2B Experience World. I know. I think one of the things we're going to be talking about then introducing is the sort of code of conduct that we believe our customers should do. So we are, we only want to work with customers who are doing follow up and we're trying to encourage all of our customers to do that with their clients. But I think it's something that they should be proud of to say, look, we're going to follow up and we're going to do the best to get it to you within 48 hours. I think it's an important step that we can do for the entire CX industry.

So I love the awards too, Adam, because really these customers share their secret sauce. They tell us what they're doing and why it's important to their industry. So it's a must watch. Even if you're not one of our customers, we invite everyone into it because there's a lot to learn.

Hey, Kerry, I think that was. We really sort of covered the subject pretty well today. I really like the fact that we dug into why you need to follow up. I mean, you know, we've been talking about this for ages, but a customer experience program without follow up for me is nothing. It's a research program. Yeah, we spoke about a couple of things. You know, there's this fear of feedback that people have. We've got to turn our pops into promoters and plenty of other things like that. Carrie, you've got the webinar Coming up. I think it's Thursday. Champions to change. Or at least it's a whole series. If we miss this one, it's coming up.

So they're all available, though you can go back and catch one and two for sure.

Yeah, Perfect. Hey, anything else you want to add?

You know, Adam, I think if I were to wrap up this whole call, I mean, we say this all the time, but I really want people to consciously think about this. Don't ask a question if you're not prepared for the answer. Right.

I love it. I love it.

So, I mean, if you're going to do something, once you get that answer, and this starts from the morning, if you ask someone how they are, you better stop and listen. And if they're not doing great, you know, sometimes it's just listening. Sometimes you got to act on that. But, yeah, really important to take action.

Harry, Sel, thanks so much for joining me today. Catch you soon.

My pleasure.