The Power of Transparency in Leadership: How Getronics Builds Trust With Customers

Bill, one big thing you learn in your career. Hi, I'm Adam Durrell and I'm the host of the Account Experience podcast. If you're a regular at the AX podcast, you'll know that in every episode I like to catch up with inspiring industry leaders and thinkers to get them to share best practices and tips on their program to help you develop your very own B2B Macaudi Experience program. Today, I'm delighted that I'm speaking with Bill Main. He's the director of Global Customer Success and Customer Experience at Jitronics. Now, full disclosure, Jitronics is a customer gauge customer. We're delighted to have them. And Bill's based in the uk but Jitronics is a really well known European brand of IT services. In fact, it's based in Amsterdam, the very city that I'm speaking from today. Something like 4,000 staff, but interestingly enough, a history that dates back to 1887. Now, Bill and I are of a certain age, but we don't go quite by that far. But I'd love to, I'd love to dive into how we, how this global company works and really understands this, how it works with thousands of B2B customers. And Bill's got a really great program that we're going to dive into. Welcome, Bill. How are you doing?

Very well, thank you, Adam. Thank you for having me.

Well, it's great to have you on. It's really. We really share an interesting work history, don't we, going back?

Yeah, we do.

Through the years I noticed that, you know, you worked at Xerox back in the day. So why don't let's introduce yourself, tell us what you do and then let's dive into your history before Jetronics.

Well, thanks. I'm Bill Maine. I'm working with Jetronics now, kind of my seventh year. An interesting organization. Yes, 138 years old. That's always a nice conversation to have with people. But started with electricity and working through analytical components, working out through the agents. But more recently now we are a technology services company working globally. We operate in over, I think 184 countries. We supply a full range of managed services and products to a wide range of new chip clients across the globe with colleagues in Latin America, Asia, PAC, Europe, all over the US etc. So, yeah, an exciting company, well known for our people and I think we might even touch on that as we go through this conversation. I'd love to. Yes, you're right.

Yeah, sorry. I was going to say I'd love to Hear more about the people and starting, starting with you actually. Where did you get into this?

I got into customer experience. It's not a new thing for me. It was customer sat when I was at Xerox. I've been an engineer with Xerox, I've gone through that, went into management and ended up being the customer service customer satisfaction manager at that time in the uk. Thoroughly enjoyed it. The surveys then were different. At the end of a service call the customer would be sent on a piece of paper, as you can imagine at that time, typed printed survey of 13 questions. Now we wouldn't dream of putting out 13 questions. And if I remember the debate was always should they be very satisfied, be on the right hand side of the page for ticking or on the left because the people were ticking it automatically. If they're mainly right handed they would take it. All right. You know, got lots of a good grounding to be fair. A good ground. A great technology company in that respect as well. Probably a bit before the time in terms of quality and customer satisfaction. But yeah, that was. I'm going to move from there. G Capital and a few other organizations and IT companies and the more recent is before joining G tronics I've been 10 years with services which is really interesting. I was working predominantly in the security side of things.

You've always worked with companies that have had enterprise clients and you and I know that the qualities of keeping enterprise clients happy. But there's multiple stakeholders in the decision making unit, big deals that you have to renew. So it's really important that customer experience part isn't there, isn't there to keep.

Yeah, I would say that that relationship and that customer experience is paramount. It's not to be all and end all. I mean if great custom experience goes a long way to supporting a bid that you're dealing with with any client in terms of winning it. But there aren't many other factors that have got to be considered. You can't just ignore those. But if you start with a very poor customer experience, you're not really going to get to that decision, be involved in those decisions and getting those decisions in your favor. Yeah, you've really got to make it move in a different way. I would think you touched on the Gyutronics people. I think what I see is all through my career people have been successful with customers, with customers and starting to grow business is where they've actually had that customer and that empathy with their client, understanding of what the client wants to achieve and you know, we Touched in Xerox. Bit ahead of their time at wor. Crossed over there as well. But the, the main thing for me as I see is that the customer people buy from people and that includes everyone in the business is a salesperson. There's no one person responsible for sales. There's no one person responsible for customer experience. Everybody does it from the delivery man to right through to the CEO. Everyone is responsible for that customer experience in any organization.

There's so much to unpick here.

Yeah.

So. And I'm sort of tempted almost to go chronologically, but why don't we start at the top of the business? Because you just said CEO and when it comes to customer experience culture, I always find it, it really comes from the top. What's your experience of that? How does that work in Jetronics?

We are very fortunate that Stuart Dignan, who's our new CEO joined just the back end of 2024. Very much involved in customer HCI is the value in our customer experience sessions. He's very much a customer person, not very much a people person. I also see it though it manifests its way in terms of the people that we've got in G Tronix are very customer focused. Nobody comes to work to do a bad job. But I just feel that for a company, I've got a number of colleagues. I'm only with the company seven years, but I know I bumped up the people that have been here 25 years. 20 years. But they've got a customer focus. I've not come across anyone who says they're not interested in it. They're very, very focused on it. Which you would expect in a services organization.

Yes. Yeah.

So with our program, which we've done and yes, we use Customer Engage. And there's good reason why we use Customer Engage for our loyalty program is that we are able to see how everybody can be involved in that journey. So just to touch on what we do with it, what we do is we do a quarterly survey on our nps. So we have a list of all our influencers and decision makers on anything that we do in terms of our contracts. And we survey them once a year. So nobody gets surveyitis. You know, we don't end the people with surveys every month. So we do it once a quarter. So everyone is surveyed once a year, but we divide that into four quarters. Yeah. And one of the key things for that is that we send a pre survey communication. We know customers, everybody get. We all get our emails or email boxes fills with stuff. Everybody trying to do things with sellers things or do things for us. So we actually make sure that our account managers and our plan service managers advise the customer that this, this response is coming and they want an honest response. We do not, we're not. I'm not trying to get to a number. I'll come on to it but I'm known for. It's not about the number. That's my favorite saying when it comes to cx. So we actually advise customers that's coming and that gets us the response rate. So our Last quarterly survey, 50.8% response rate. Wow.

Let me just, now let me just measure 50 north 50% response rate. That's a, that's awesomely correct.

Because we put a lot of effort into advice. It's coming. We do appreciate what you want. So we did get that feedback and then we follow up. As you know in your system you can put follow ups in. We make sure that people are contacted and ask because the silent ones are the dangerous customers. The customers that haven't responded are just as important as the ones that do respond. So we've got to look at it holistically. So we actually chase that up with the customers and with our account managers and CSMs who are responsible for these contacts. And we found that those where that engagement has been done, the response rate is actually better. It might not give you a positive response. You get a response. I'm only after responses. I want to know what my customers think so we can make changes. And then we do the follow up. So when a survey comes back, we've got 48 hours to follow up. We use 48 hours because it helps with the weekend and time zones, et cetera, so far as that works. And again with a 50.8% that was great. We've seen our NPS probably, you know, it's, it's following the industry standard. I think we've got some activities that are going to be improving it. And then we do the follow up. So. And then we continue that again all four quarters. And at the end of the year we have a CEO email which is sent to everyone who sent a survey, not those who responded, everyone who sent. So if I'm being honest, I'm trying to get the fear of missing out back in there that FOMO so that people that engage because I'm still not satisfied with 50.8%.

Let me just clarify. So, so I'm just going to re summarize this back to you. So send it out a pre invite, send it out quarterly. Everyone expects it through the year, but it's staggered. I love that. I mean, it also gets the muscle going four times a year. It must be really good. But you've got a really strong action culture. So you're going back to people within 40 hours. Well, let's drill into that a bit because I. I know how hard that is to do.

Yeah.

You'd ask, you guys doing it, how do you. How did you set that up? You said that very quickly, but I know how hard it is. Tell us a bit more about that, Bill.

It's not perfect. We've got some people still to convince, shall we say, or inform them of the best practice. But now what we're doing is we've actually just relentlessly gone back to our colleagues and said this is what the customer is saying, teaching them and taking them through this customer experience journey. There are a number of people that think customer experience is too difficult. We've all come across those.

Yeah.

But you tend to find that when you think it's too difficult, it's the admin side. So that's one of the reasons we've dropped a quarterly survey. If it was practicable, I would look at it on a monthly basis because then you've got even less for people to follow up on.

Yeah.

So if you imagine an account manager or CSM has got 50 or 60 contact, if they were, they do that once a year. That's quite a hefty piece of administrative work where you spread it across the year. It kind of fits so that it becomes part of the heartbeat of the organization. I've got to do that.

To come back to your point, it's not just a once a year exercise. It reminds people that customer experience is a thing that happens throughout the year.

And that's what I like about it. So then we've got that feedback, that feedback loop, what we do, what we do. And it's not about putting the onus on that CSM or that account manager to fix a larger corporate issue that may be there, but it means that the customer feels they're listening to something's done about it. And we feed that back. And then we do our annual email from Stuart where we send out an email. This is what you've told us. This is what we're doing about it, good and bad. And we say, you know, and we pass on the communication to our colleagues. And then we've had one response. I must tell you about this because this is. There are only two people that were happy about the response coming back. Managing Director of a global organization who wrote back to Stuart. He was the only person and he said, I'm unhappy with the service. I get through G Tronics. Right, okay. And I never received a survey that you mentioned. So as I said, Esther cx, architect who works with me, only she and I were the excited ones that were getting a response back from this email. We checked everything out. So we knew that the service being provided was meeting all the service levels. All the other customer experience measures coming back from his colleagues and other decision makers and influencers were all actually 100%. We had a score of 100. And then we discovered that he had taken. He was unhappy about a meeting that hadn't been moved or cancelled or something. So we've now arranged that there's going to be a meeting between Stuart, our CEO, and this MD going forward, which is absolutely fantastic because it shows the power of. Everything looked green, everything was all, you know, everything looks great and rosy. We could have just ignored that. But by sending that email out, we've got another piece of feedback from a client who is dissatisfied. So we've now had an opportunity, and I know it worked very well with Share to turn that around and make it much more positive. So, yeah, there are things that, you know, people are frightened of these responses back from the client, but in actual fact, there are real opportunities to move things forward.

I'm going to do a little bit of follow up on that myself. I love the way that you said, you know, when Stuart, the CEO sends out the message, it's good and bad and that shows vulnerability and some transparency, I think. I think that's all important. It's very brave of him to do that.

Yeah.

There's some evidence also that shows that if you, if you can correct mistakes in a company exactly as you said, we screwed up, how can we make it better again? It shows a humility, a willingness to learn from your mistakes. That's what I think really helps with trust in customer relationships. So there's that. So how did you get Stuart also to. To write that? You know, because all the CEOs I know would instinctively never want to be open about that. How did you persuade him to be so open and transparent?

That's the difference. I've got to give some of the credit to Stewart himself. If you do that, for all the varying reasons, you've just given trust, openness, humility and that genuine need that I think what it does actually provides that view of. That genuine view of we're here to improve it, we're not hiding behind the number. So when you actually look at that, sending that out, we're actually telling you, we are listening to you and we are doing something about it and we're following up with these things. It's not just something in the corporate website that says, oh, this looks, makes you look good. Which is why I keep, I refer to NPS or any customer experience surveys. It's not about the number because I've got sales colleagues that have gone right. But we don't survey that person because we'll get a bad, we'll get a bad response. I said, well, you don't respond, you don't survey them because you may want to antagonize anyone with a survey. But then they get marked as zero, as in an absolute detractor. You don't take them out to serve your result because otherwise you end up with a false view. But honest. And it's the same with all the data. All the data we have on the platform. The customer engaged platform is available to all our colleagues. So all the team leads, all the managers, all the account managers, CSMs, etc. Go and have a look. They're on there. It's your customer, you need to fix it. Same with the operational team leads service desk people, technology tower leads, all that's there for them to use with their teams to build a continuous improvement plan.

That's a really mature attitude. You know, you're being open and transparent within the business, treating everyone as grown up. I love that. I think it's. And maybe that comes back to the fact that this is, you know, when you have a mature customer experience outlook, you do things like this. It's really.

Yeah. And I think we have to be like that because otherwise you, you take all the value out of customer experience. Yeah, but it's just about a number. If I've got to just provide a number of 80, 85 NPS. Yeah. But I just manipulate the figures and I get that the customers are still unhappy about things. There's something wrong with that. But it also, NPS is only one part of what we do. We are also doing surveys on our individual service tickets and they're followed up within 24 hours at the service desk and with these people. So there's a lot of activity goes on to try and push this forward and. But our journey isn't over. We are really, we've got lots more to do. There's lots more.

I'm going to keep going on about the actions if that's okay. I'm going to Put you on the right side. So you're taking. I love the small closed loop actions. You've got like 48 hours and you've got Stuart CEO doing the ultimate big loop. What happens in between? What are you learning from the customers that you're able to put changes in that are a bit more strategically. Can you give a bit of color on that, how that works?

Yeah, I think what a custom from an NPS perspective and that loyalty survey, we're actually able to see how we linking this into our finances so what their account value is. So we're monetizing it. By monetizing it, I think it brings it to life, you know, because that's what we're why we're in business to make money. I mean let's not be, you know, but that's what we're here to do. So when you actually put that in and you can then move the scale to see if it's something that's a risk or not a risk that really focuses the mind. It also looks at when we are. You can use it on renewals. So when you're actually looking at a renewal, you can go back in your CX and show the customer the journey they've been on. Because sometimes we forget about that journey that we've done with a client and it reminds us of what we need to do and how we. What have we changed recently in a given account and how does that reflected within our APS survey or has it gone up? Has it gone down? Some have gone down. Do we understand why it's gone down? Yes. Right, okay. Are we doing something about it? Yes. And then we should we explore as an expectation going forward. So there's lots of different ways that we are closing that loop and providing that insight to the business.

And you're saying that that is linked to the. The finances. So are you able to put any weightings on satisfaction, dissatisfaction and drivers? Is that one of the ways that you're using the system?

That's the fundamental feedback we give them to the business. You know, our customers are seeing, you know, we know the drivers that are coming out of it. We can see it by region, we can see it overall by region, by customer, by certain people within the customer. So that's a big insight. If you've got a decision maker that's really unhappy about something, we can actually then focus on that. Why is that happening? We can see changes in the way the customers respond. So a lot of data there that we can dig into it and a lot more with Confidence, because it is actually real data. It's what your customers told you.

That's another sign of a very mature program. Bill, I want to give you that. You've got it monetized. So not only are you able to get NPS or as we used to call back in the day, satisfaction, but you can put dollars on the pain points. Let me go further on that because many people adopt a kind of CX program as a complaints resolution, complaints avoidance. Right. You might have even started in that back in the day. But the way I see modern CX program, they're. They're looking for opportunities for upsell and, and referrals. How do you use that in your business? Is that a part of your program yet?

The referral. Referral part yet is not formal. I'm not going to claim it within the CX10, but it is where we're looking at it. You get that referral. I see it probably more in like a user group. So when we've got existing customers bringing them together, where we use, we have innovation groups, etc. Within the business, but we actually input to that as well. So that's where I see it being used at this moment in time. I'm not going to put my hand up and claim when we're suddenly returning, we've got, you know, 100 million of referrals this month. No, that's not there. That is somewhere we're working towards and making sure that that happens in terms of the business.

That's really interesting that that's the direction you're going in. It's really good.

Well, it is the rule. They really work. We monetize our cx. That's because we're in business, we want to do it. But in order to monetize it correctly, you must deliver a high quality, a consistent quality of service. So it's a continuous cycle. And then the benefit that Dutronics and any other organization gets out of it is that we retain customers. It's cheaper to retain your existing customers and bring new ones in, but we also want new ones. We want to grow. We want to demonstrate the value that we can bring to our business. Yeah, but it's not also. I've seen a shift away from traditional customers looking at technology, etc. But now looking at the support that we give them in achieving their business outcomes. Now, if you don't understand your customer. So we are very lucky that we're looking at our customers, users or customers, employees in most cases. What do they think of our business and how do we move them forward? Well, we've got to satisfy their business outcomes. That's the shift that I'm seeing very much within the business. It's no longer transactional in that sense for us as a managed service. I know you've got CPG and has made customers on the CPG arena slightly different when you look at it from a managed service perspective.

Yeah. It's that partnership that organizations look for these days. Some especially as it's such a fundamental backbone of all of the organizations out there. It's that trusted partner and the what and what I love about what you're saying about the ability to we take this relationship really seriously. I think that makes a big difference in business these days.

I go back to what I said about colleagues in Gyutronics. There are a lot of colleagues in Gyutronics that are very focused. They've been our customers for 25 years. We've had customers, some very large, very global blue chip Companies for over 25 years working into Troy. And those organizations very easily will move across to another supplier. So believe they've got that continuous support. And we know how they work. We know how. What they're trying to achieve.

Yeah. As you think about your program going forward, Bill, how do you see the program evolving and you must see AI affecting this in your business? Well, if you look into your crystal ball, how do you think it's going to evolve?

I don't have a crystal ball, but really using AI, we're not an organization. It's a we, the organization you got to look at, particularly as a. As. As a technology company as well. I see AI has a place. I think there is a. There's an element of people expecting it to do more than it actually will. And I mean that in terms of how it will affect people. Where AI is coming in, we need to make sure that the. The AI element of it is actually delivering this human part of it as well. That is critical because your user experience. If people just sit back and think of themselves, how they go through and life, they don't. Maybe those of us of a CER prefer to have the human interaction, but we've got to make sure that AI doesn't eliminate that feel or that someone's getting progress and is moving. They're not just talking to a robot all the time.

Yeah.

And we've got to. One of the things that we're looking at with our virtual assistants and AI automation, we're looking now to see where do we pick up what are the touch points within that, that we can, we can make sure that we're not negatively impacting our user experience.

Yeah, yeah. Do you see AI replacing the survey in the next year or two? Is that an instant thing or the survey got more years to go, what.

Some of you technology guys are going to do for us as well? Because yes, I think there's an opportunity to start interrogating some of the data that you've got, journey through the AI and it will add some value in some places. But again it's going to be back to the particular journey that you're taking your part, your customer on. Or AI only may be part of that journey that they're on with you, which makes it vitally important you understand the impact that has on it.

Yeah. And I still think that nothing can really replace that human to human contact ultimately, you know, even what we're doing now, this sort of conversation. But you want the surveys or the feedback to help you guide the stepping stone into that thing.

I think I've got to be honest, the generational things, you know, my daughter, my daughter does, you know, she doesn't phone her friends, she would text each other, you know, we picked up a telephone. I think there's an element of people, some people, the Personas that are coming into it are going to have that effect on AI. Different people will interact with AI in different ways or we will have to have our AI automation tuned to work with different Personas in different ways. Yeah, that will be the smart part.

But probably as I think about your customer base, probably a little bit more conservative in the way because you know, this big enterprise thing and I'm going to change on a dime and they're not consumers or no buying stuff on TikTok from you. You are really, you've got the long history of transactions behind you in front of you.

I think also we've got to be innovative in terms of using a design to of sort support our customers going forward. So not only just from a service perspective, but information how we engage with them and how the way we can add the value into providing AI solutions to them as well as using them ourselves, consuming them ourselves to deliver our services and run products.

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Well, I wonder if I can change gear a little bit because it's great having you on here. You're someone like, like me that if I can say that we started work in the 80s and I want to go back to one of the things we started out which was thinking about Xerox. In the beginning we said how Xerox had a mature thing and I wonder if you can, can you draw some lines between what you were doing at Xerox back then and connecting it with now.

There was a strong sense of understanding the client and understanding what the outcome. We talk about it as the outcome, the business outcome, but from Xerox perspective, it was understanding where your customers were and what we're trying to achieve to get the sale. Let's be blunt, that's what they were trying to do. But also there was a still a focus on retaining customers. I mean, I remember Xerox, the no quibble guarantee. So, you know, somebody just call up and say, this machine is no good. I want to replace no quibble. It would be replaced in a service manager. At that time I just thought, oh my God, when that came out, what was that one? Of course. But it wasn't as frightening as people thought. So it's about asking, it's like asking some, repeat some of the questions in cx. People are frightened of asking the question. Actually go and ask the question. I don't think the answer is going to be as bad as you think. So there was a confidence in the business. There was a confidence in the, in the way forward. Now it could have been just from the 80s, but I found that Xerox were very structured. They knew exactly what they want to do the strategy had been thought through. They knew exactly where they wanted to push what they wanted from it in a positive sense with the customer. They were ahead of the time. That was one of the key things that we actually, we had our involvement in Xeroxes particularly the UK where we actually ended up with self managed work teams. Now these were people that were, these were the engineers, the finance people etc. Who were doing their own pay rises, their own customer satisfaction activities, their own cost management. Fantastic idea. And I see that's possibly something that could come back around into so that there's that genuine ownership at the right level, at every level in fact of customer channel.

That's a really nice way of putting it. If I put my own lens on it. I didn't work at Xerox, I worked for some other big companies but what I think these, what was well thought through is that they took the time to think about processes.

It's a different time now slightly using technology to advance and speed things up, get the decisions, act in an agile way. Yeah but I think there's a bit more. There are some elements that need to be. I'm not saying we should take years. That's certainly not, that's the old IT way but we, the new way of working is up to stick and getting that structure built into. How does it affect, how is it affecting cx? How does it affect finances? What are our decisions doing and how do they impact the user? In the end I think that part that they need to clip back into.

Yeah. And I don't want to sound like an old duffer here but I think that they, they in the 80s they were the 90s. They were taking time to think about the customer processes and measuring the customer experience was an extension of the quality process. It was like of course we're going to do this, you know we're just, we're going to keep checking on. It's just like building a great product. We need to check if it works. And I think it was taken seriously as a kind of an engineering concept rather than award. Just as a structure and I think that was lost a little bit and we, and as we've gone on 40 years down the line it's so easy to come up with this.

But we just did 40 years Adam. I mean that was. Yeah, but we need, we need some 80s music as I said.

But don't worry, that's my, that's my go to soundtrack. We'll always do that. But you know what I mean is that I think that there's something there. So it's interesting to hear. Maybe we can touch on that at a later date. But.

We should be reminiscing too much here and thinking that things were better than the new emails. But I just do think there are things. There were things when they approach I think we're very fast. Everything nowadays is very. No, no no. Yeah or appears so we do need to in some cases just you know backwater use for the kinds of T.

And and as you said it was a time when you were sending out bits of paper and bringing them counting them you know so I can remember.

Piles of the salvager tongues.

Although to be fair Xerox was a paper driven company. Right. So maybe that they went to the.

Document company at one point and then. Then remove the reaper. I mean yeah it was a good. I enjoyed my time then as you can imagine it was a good time.

And. And I can't help but noticing to you and I had a connection that we both worked at Morse Computers the sort of legendary London based computer company the reseller from the 80s to the 2000s. But here's the thing. It connects it to Xerox because when I first started there I mean 1980 something we bought out the. The stock of the Xerox store if you remember what there's a Xerox they somewhat ill advisedly in the mid-80s built out these shops where they would sell everything from a ZX81 to a deck rainbow with everything in between. And you ever thought that was going to work but more sport the stuff probably for a few cents on the dollar and I was charged with helping to sell that stuff. So that was. That was how I got the business involved.

Yeah but the kind of most to re a little bit I think that was when the digital thing really started to buy into the. Into the 90s. That's when zero started to get paper become. I mean I was just thinking about how often do I print or use paper and nowadays compared to what we used to use them and there's been a big change. So you're right. But our customers expectations change so which is why you've got to build me a customer experience. That's the constant that's been through all of us for sure.

Let's try to wrap up now by going to Bill Maine's top tips for other B2B CX practitioners. If you could give three pearls of wisdom Bill to your fellow CX people out there, what would it be?

Don't lose faith. The first one you've got to be resilient, but also communicate. Communicate and communicate. That is absolutely critical. You've got to communicate internally, inwardly, upwardly, out to the side to your customers. You need to communicate to everybody and don't be frightened. I think that's it. Don't have a fear of what the feedback is. I would just. I would genuinely say, yeah, just communicate with people. Make sure. Tell people they feel the resilience you need because it feels as if it's dropping away. So. But yeah, get involved, read. Listen to your customers. They're telling you the truth. I've done the correlations between the feedback from our customers and their operational data. Yeah, you guess what, it matches. You know, if you've got the, you know, if you look at the data that your customers are telling you what we should do, the world listen to their customers really can and give it more communication.

Bill, I think they're really good rules to live by, and not just for cx, but for business. Thank you so much for joining me today. It's a real pleasure to hear from you on your program and I think you've got some great puzzle wisdom that you've passed on. Really appreciate it. Thanks so much.

Thank you very much. Thanks for having me. Thanks. Bye.