The Two Speeds of Change in Customer Experience

Not one thing you need to do.

In your CX programme, spice up your CX leadership.

Hi, I'm Adam Durrell and I'm the host of the Account Experience podcast. If you're a regular at the AX podcast, you'll know that in every episode I like to catch up with inspiring industry leaders or thinkers and they're here to talk about best practices and tips, but to pass on their knowledge to help you develop your B2B account experience program. Now, I've been in CX for 20 years. I've been working on the technology to help improve B2B relationships. But I know at least half of any successful solution is culture change. You know, how a company can become truly customer centric. So I love to talk to people who can fill in that part that maybe I'm not so great at filling in. And so my guest today is a passionate individual who thinks deeply about company culture and she's a master at helping to shape it. And when she talks to me about the speeds of change, I mean, I just knew I had to have her as a guest. So today I'm speaking with Ninka Blum. She's a globally recognized customer experience speaker and educator and she's got CSP and CCXP qualifications. She's dedicated to work with CX leaders and elevate their customer experience impact. And if you've seen her live, we've watched her videos, you'll know how contagious her energy is. And practical experience helps CX strategies work. I mean, I'm really looking forward to our talk today, so I'm going to make sure that I try and match her energy and bring it to the floor. Nika, welcome to the podcast. It's great to see you.

Thank you so much, Adam. It's great. Yeah, well, we're tame this at the end of the day, as you always take this at Tuesdays at 5, so. And I still have energy, so that is a good thing.

Yeah, me too. Me too. I looked on LinkedIn, I could see you and I have 200 LinkedIn connections in common. I don't know of anybody else I have in my network that have.

You do.

Hey, listen, first of all, why don't we just dive straight into it? You talk. Your slogan is spice up customer experience. So what should be spiced up about customer experience?

For me, I'm going to be honest, I think it's about the leadership. So it's not that we want senior leaders. No, I think the people that are listening to it, your audience, where can they Spice up their leadership to really make sure that we have impact. And what I've seen in the last 10 years when I've been an entrepreneur in customer experience, I educate, I speak, is that we make a lot of plans and I think we need to lead more, to take the lead, to have that good change narrative, to take time for strategy, to, well, discuss the status quo, to be the change, to go to customers ourselves. There's so many elements, but I think it's about. So we talk a lot about customer experience, management, that's our profession, but the way we implement it. Am I a true leader? Am I delivering the impact I want? Am I delivering upon the goals that I need to? And I think too many CX leaders or account executives or everything that it's called, I think in a B2B also often customer success, I think we need to look in the mirror and see where can we spice up our leadership to get to results.

I like what you're saying. I often observe that people tend to get a bit obsessed with measuring and analyzing rather than actually putting things into action. If we can get into this, maybe. I wonder if it's a bit of a trap that everybody has the best of intentions when they start out. We know what we need to do, we know what our mission is and they somehow get derailed. Maybe they're not given enough power or they not claiming it at the board. So if we can get into that, I would love that. But first, Ninka, what's it like? What's a day in the life of Ninka Bloom like?

Well, I think today was. I have different kind of days, but let's just do today. This morning I had all kinds of meetings. Today was is a client day on premises preparation in the morning. So I had client meetings. I had a preparation call for a customer experience game, train the trainer we're going to have. I had a preparation for an in company masterclass that's coming up and I had a check in with one of my inner circle clients that I just was curious how she was doing. And this afternoon I had my mastermind session. I have an eight month intervention program where I help a small circle of CX leaders to spice up their leadership. So work on their authority, on their anecdote, their change in narrative. So and today was a session on story and then now we have a podcast and I think that is.

Well, I mean it's continuing telling the story, right?

Yeah. And the honest truth is that I woke up, I'm a very early bird, so I love Going to bed early but also waking up early. So I was at a 6am Pilates class and then I didn't take my Pilates clothes off until like 11 because the rest of it could be just like put something over it. So it's just like, yeah, today was an office day and I also have days like 3 weeks ago I had a day where I was with a client in Singapore and sometimes I'm at a two a day masterclass. So it can vary a lot. And I love that also about my work that it's either speaking or education. And yeah.

Now you know I've been following you for some time on the web. You really evangelize customer experience. And we'll talk about the details a little bit in your story. But how did you get into it? What was your route here? To get to a CCXP master.

Yeah.

And a well renowned speaker around the world.

I think when I look back I come from the island of Texel, that's where I grew up. And there's something that we call in Dutch it's called the Overkond the other side. So you, you live on Tesl and then you have the rest of the world and we call the Overkond the other side. And I've always been the girl that I knew. I love to be on Texel but I also love to get to the other side. And when I look at my career, I started in sales, B2B sales. I've been both in telco and in insurance. Then I went to do a role in marketing. I was leading operations also in B2B on the pension department. Then I led 100 people in it with the insurance within the insurance company and did my MBA on HR where everybody was like what's she doing with her career? And then I got asked at kpn, the Dutch incumbent telco, if I wanted to become responsible for CX and by recruiter. And actually the interesting thing is then because everybody beforehand was like n what are you doing with your career? Or we don't really understand you're moving around but what are you good at? And then when I was asked to be, I Googled it in 2011 what is customer experience? What is customer excellence? And I thought well it's sustainable change program with customer centric mindset in hand. And I had to believe at that time there's only two sustainable changes program. Kind of like it's either customer centricity or employee experience we would call it now.

Yeah.

Now I also believe that a purpose driven one is One, so. But I thought, okay, that's nice. And that's how I started. So 2012, I became responsible for CX at KPN.

I mean, that's a big role. By the way, I love Tesols. It's really one of my favorite places to go. So it's. Thanks.

There's one day I'm going to come back. Now I live on the other side, but I do know that I'm an island girl. So there's going to be a day that I'll return Stern. My mom still lives there, my brother. But yeah, I'm also a big fan.

Okay, so strong Dutch theme coming through. I'm also speaking to you from up the road in Amsterdam here. Kpn, incumbent telco, big company, also well known around the world. Let's talk through some of the lessons you learned there. I mean, you, you were working on customer experience for huge organization. So what were some of the things that you, you learned and were you able to put them into practice? Maybe they were also anti lessons, things not to do.

Well, I think, yeah, just talking out of my. And just thinking out loud. For me, I think one of the major lessons was that I needed a strategy. So I had a team of 12 in the context of about 9 million customers and 9,000 employees at the time. And so what am I going to do to bring NPS from -14? And we had a goal to go to zero. And it's very interesting because I thought what can be my strategy? And the normal thing to do is to hire a consultant. And the beginning of 2012, I had a little tour around consultancy firms. And to be honest, most of it was just full of shit because I thought it's just business process redesign what you're talking about. This is not customer experience. And they all said, no, no, it's customer experience. I said, it's not. So I thought, I'm not going to spend any of my budget on this. And then I just sit together with some people and I created some visuals and somehow we designed our own strategy. And I think for me, I have this philosophy. I had a team of 12 and there were like five people. They were like me. They were making the truth people. And there were seven people that were finding the truth people, which was very interesting. And what I found is that when you have a role where nobody actually knows what we need to do, where we need to go, how to make this work, how to close the loop, whatever, you need people that are truth makers. Because if you're a truth seeker, or truth finder. You go ask other people what should the strategy be? Or. But no, you have to take position. You have to make a first draft. I think this should be it. And then check with others, get buy in, validate. But making that first strategy ourselves, which was actually really working across voice of the customer. So listening to customers, I used the acronym lara. So I said, we need to be really curious, like, curious. These little girls, she's like three years old, she's Lara, she has these big eyes. She asks, oh, you don't like how we. We answer the phone. So what would you like? Oh, you like to be more friendly? Oh, you don't want to call back because we cannot solve it. Oh, really? Oh, well, let me think about it. Of course I'm going to create that. And I said LARA is an acronym for listening, analyzing, reacting and acting. And then reacting was the inner loop. So we need to really get back to customers when we've not solved their issues. And the bigger loop, we need to go Friction hunt. We will call it now. But at that time. So I introduced lara. So I said we need to do the voice of the customer programs in all our operational channels. We're going to do brand delivery in the customer journey. So we're going to look across the. And that's where two people, eight people were doing the voice of the customer and employee ambassadorship. And those were the three pillars of my strategy. And we've run through that and it worked. And I think making the truth is something that a lot of CH leaders should do because nobody else is going to help you. Or you can have a consultant make the truth. I think there's now many more brilliant ones, but it's not difficult to do it.

But that's actually not an expression I've heard before. So making the truth and truth seeking. So if I'm playing this back to you, Making the truth is going, look, we've got this hunch, this. And so you're quite creative. You turn it into a story. Did I get that right? Is that.

Yeah. But you also have to make a strategy. So, like, let me tell you the different. What it looks like when you're a truth maker or a truth seeker. So the truth seeker, if I would be a truth seeker, I would be going to all the directors of all the verticals. And I say, okay, when it comes to customer experience strategy, what do you think is important? And they would tell me things that they thought would be important and the thing that would happen, it would get more difficult because everybody would be saying something. To be honest, they had no clue and they would just say something. Because leaders often don't tell you that they don't know anything. So they just talk and you think it's the truth and you think you should take it all into account. And that truth finder gets so much further, further, further that you're like, oh, how am I going to go about the truth seeker? So, and then you've got the truth maker, the Vahnheit marker. What they do is they just make a strategy. They do a SWOT analysis. They take a strategy of whoever they put like some pillars in or make a house or I don't know, or the five must win battles or you borrow. Now you borrow mine strategy. Oh, it worked for Nynke. And then you say, well, what do you think if we do this? And then you go to these same people, instead of that, you seek the truth, you say, I've got this starting point. If we would like this, what would work and what would not? And then suddenly you're also seen as a leader. You take position and you bring things forward. And I think that is something that I learned at kpm, that truth makers, especially when you, when it comes to change, get further than truth seekers. Although when you are a voice of the customer specialist and you need to do data analysis, I hope you're a truth seeker because that's all in your tooling. What customers are saying you can create something different, right? So, but it's very interesting that this mindset and attitude and you can learn it. But it's very interesting because we think other people know. But let's be honest, when it comes to customer centric change, we need to be the experts.

There was some things in that I just wanted to unpack. There was a lot of information there.

Okay.

It's almost like you're going too fast, Ninka.

Sorry. Yeah, yeah, fast and slower.

Well, hold on, we'll get to that in a second. There was something I just want to pick up. Did you say friction hunting? Did I hear that correctly? I love the learning new words. What is friction hunting?

Well, for me, when I look at the Lara Constrict, what I used in the acronym, one of the things I said, we need to listen. So we get to get all the customer feedback with our tooling, with our, well, everything we have, then we analyze it and then we react. So that's the inner loop. But we also need to act. We need to improve. If we got 100 customers that are calling back on a certain theme. We need to make sure that we get this friction out of our systems communication. And I really love this term of friction hunting. And you can do it in a big way because I know there are big programs. A client of Lamor, a colleague of mine at MultiChoice in South Africa, he created a huge project called 99 where he made friction hunting the core of his CX program. So this year he said, we're going to get 99 issues out. So he didn't call it friction hunting or let's improve? No, he called it hashtag 99 and he just said these are 99 problems we're going to fix.

I got 99 problems, but CX ain't one. That was his philosophy. Something like that.

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By the way, taking friction out of a process is often, often results in a better customer experience. So it's. It's a great couple of words that I'd never seen before and I'm gonna steal that from you.

Yeah, use it, use it.

But you are a very fast thinker and a very good communicator on this. But I'm just going to slow you down a little bit because there are two speeds to change. I learned this from you. So talk us through the two speeds of change.

Yeah. Remember, the first time this occurred to me is when I had an interview for Another podcast that I interviewed, Gene Kornfield of Accenture, and he told me about that some processes in customer experience and in IT change and other things. And I translated it to CX are slow processes, like thinking about the future state, designing a new strategy, getting stakeholders on board, all these kinds of things. So I really got into like, okay, and what are the elements? As soon as I interviewed him, I translated it to my own business. Like, what kind of work do I have that is taking slow change. So developing a method for closing the loop, making people, putting the governance down, all these kinds of things take time that you need to think about it. It goes slow because you need to engage people.

Yeah.

And when I translated, so I thought, but when you've got slow change, I also thought that is also fast change. So. And somehow it clicked in my mind because I love Italy and my husband and I, every year we go to the Mille Emilia and that is, it goes from Brescia to Rome back. It's the most beautiful car race in the world. It's again in two weeks in June, and it's very interesting and it goes very fast and everybody loves it. Those beautiful cars, everybody takes pictures, is waving, the people are enjoying it. And it's just. Everybody loves it. Then three years ago, I walked the Via Frangigina. It's actually from Cambridge to Rome, but I walked the part in Italy. So from the Swiss border to Rome, 1,000 kilometers. And I also go to Rome. So I thought you go either with a car from Brescia to Rome really fast, but also I'm walking and I thought, this walking pilgrimaging, it's slow. You take it slow, nobody's waving, nobody is clapping. But you have the time to think about the big topics in life. You get to the truth, essence of what is important. And yes, you get praise once you get into Rome. And then people are like, wow, did you all do that? So the result at the end, and everybody's really proud of you. And then I thought, if I translate that to cx, this slow change is, I call it the strategic fundamental track. So it's these things that we need to do that we have to create strategy. We have to think about how much budget am I going to get? How am I going to do my stakeholder engagement? How am I going to think about methods? If I'm going to Friction Hunt, for example, and think about this program, take this hashtag 99. What do I need to do? What are steps you need to take? Time to think that through, prepare, and then fast Agile track, that is, let's call it the Milmelia goes fast. We also need to deliver change. So if we go friction hunt, we need to make sure that we do agile change management, that we improve in customer journeys and that is actually the results of that are measured. What did we really improve? Why didn't customers have to call back? What kind of improvements did we do in our sales funnels? That we have more sales or we have less churn? That is what you get applause for. That's results. And what I think for CX leaders could be very interesting to think about. How much time and effort of my. First of all, what's my assignment actually? What's my role in the company? Am I much more? Do I have strategic tactical roles or do I have more an operational technical role? And what kind of results do I need? And how much time do I spend in the slow strategic fundamental track and how much time do I spend in the fast agile track? And I think it's a very interesting thought process.

I like it. Yeah, because the act of going slowly, the change comes from within, doesn't it? You're internalizing this. Can I relate that to my concept of closing the loop?

Yes, please.

Because I love what you're saying here and I actually thought about the two speeds of change until you started talking about it. So first of all, thank you for sharing that. I think it's wonderful.

You're welcome.

But I had this concept of closing the loop. One is the big loop that we think about. These are the strategic changes, you're right. They take, they're slow, they take some months to get through. It happens maybe over a year. Big projects, lots of people take some time down the line to make a difference. The other thing which I think is ignored often by organizations is the fast loop, the inner loop, which is when you get a response from a customer and you get back to them within 24 hours or 48 hours and say, hey, thank you for that feedback. I don't know if I can fix it now, but I really appreciate it. Maybe you can tell me a bit more about it. That is to me about building relationships. And so if I put it in your terms of fast and slow loop, does that fit? Does that kind of agile and.

Yeah, well, I think first of all, a lot of people put these big projects up. What I've seen in B2B, for example, invoicing for a lot of clients that work that are in the B2B context, that whole invoicing, it's always difficult thing or They've done through the whole process of buying, they've got the contracts right, and now the delivery process. And so I think it's really important, where can you deliver and where can you really make that change? It's on the personal side, it's fast. We've got a problem now, we need a call, we need to fix it. I don't think it's always the role of the CX people because that's often, of course, either account managers or maybe customer service. But we do need to interact. And for example, for me also this one on the fast one, I'm working with a B2B client now and one of the things we're going to do is call 50 detractors every month. Yeah, that is very practical. It's very direct, it's very fast and you get people together. It has a beginning, it has an end. And yeah, you can get into projects you don't know, but it's just very doable. I think don't plan on 50 to start, just do 2 10amonth. I think that is. You don't want to push people away with this client who works. But I think that those kinds of little things we underestimate. And the good thing is we get our own hands and feet dirty, people like that. And we are inspiring to others.

Yeah.

And we have customer stories.

I love that because, you know, whenever you ask people to do that, there's this fear of feedback. Oh, my God, I've got to talk to my customer. They're unhappy with us. It does take some getting over that for people, but the rewards are amazing. Every time I've connected with the detractor, it almost always ends in a more positive relationship. And that's, that's the thing, I think that's important also to confront things in life. Sometimes if you have something difficult to talk about, the more honest and open you are, here's me getting all sentimental, but that's what I really. I think it works in B2B as well as in personal life. So.

Yeah. And you know, Adam, what's the interesting thing is when I take a step back so thinking about what are we going to do this year, what is really impacting when you look at your strategy? It could be, for example, that voice of the customer is one of the pillars of your strategy, that this is the slow track to think, what are we going to actually do here? That needs, what are the big projects, what are the big things? But also what can we do to truly deliver change? And I think this is where you need that slow process to think about it, but also to think about these elements in all of the pillars of your strategy. What can I do now or this month that really impacts the customer? And that I can just do. And everybody that I've worked with always comes up with really small things. And up till now, for example, it's not B2B, but it's B2C. It's a client of mine, she worked at the Rijksmuseum, and she was responsible for CX over there. And what's interesting is that she saw that everybody was busy with art and not with the people that visited it. So what she did is she bought two outfits. One of the guest relations and one of the people that guard in the. In Dutch, it's called Supposed to be. Is it also in English called Supposed? I don't know what it's.

No, I'm also thinking Guardian translation. But the. The people that stand by that would not.

The people that stand by the art.

And say, you can't touch it.

So. And she just bought. She got both outfits, and then she said every other Friday, one time in a month, a morning, I joined guest relations. I am with them. I help clients. And the other two weeks, I will be with the guys that are standing in the museum. And that way she got, like, into conversations with clients, she got into conversations with employees. And what's the fun thing is, is that the director of the museum at that time, Taco Dibitz, I think he still is, by the way, he was walking through by her office, he says, what are these outfits doing there? And she told him what she was doing. He says, oh, I also would like to do that. And that how she inspired a leadership project. But you need to lead first. And that's what I also mean with spice up your leadership. What are you really doing instead of.

Talking just before we leave? By the way, that's like CX cosplay, isn't it? I love that the Rijksmuseum are leading in that. But. But it's one other thing I want to. I want to add to this, which is like. Because I think before we leave the two speeds, it's just also triggered something else. I like to think of closing the loop as something to do with putting out fires. And that the small loop, the fast one, is fire fighting.

Yep.

And if you think about a firefighter, they're sexy, they're there together, but they're fast. And it's exciting. Everybody wants to be a firefighter. And yet if you Talk to a firefighter, they'll say they would rather be doing fire prevention, which is a bit boring. It's not sexy. It's making sure that we've got smoke detectors and our houses are safe. It saves more lives. I think you need the balance of both.

And I think that you've got to have really. And in many organizations, for example, especially in the beginning at kpn, we had so many firefighters. I had a metaphor. I said, oh, if I would had a firefighter's hat here and would have put it on everybody's hat every time. Oh, look, fire. Yay. But I think it's a perfect metaphor where the bigger loop is fire prevention. Let's make sure things don't happen again. It was the second A of my Lara and reacting the inner loop. Just putting fires out. Make sure we call customers back and. Yeah, yeah, okay.

Anyway, Blonde Spice, how do we take spicing up your CX program to the board? I want to try and bring it there because I think that's the thing that most CX leaders really struggle with. They've got a great program, and yet somehow they miss it. Tell us your best tips for how leaders can do that.

First of all, can you answer the question, why customer experience now? So why is it needed for this company? Can you frame the sense of urgency and the sense of urgency, why is CX needed now? So not next year, not in two years. So you need to be able to answer that. And it can come from strategy from the company. It can come from a burning platform because your NPS is so crappy that I have a B2B client. She messaged NPS and she can see that. She also asked clients if they are also looking to go for other contracts. So the likelihood to change to a competitor. And she sees that with the detractors and she could link it to their revenue. So she says, if we continue like this, so much money is at stake. Yeah, well, she got a burning platform there.

Yeah.

So you need to be able to frame it. And it could be in words. It would be even better, in fact. So that I think is one. And the second one, I think you need to have somebody who gives you the assignment in the board.

Yeah, you need that. You need that cover, don't you? From somebody?

Yeah. But if you don't. I spoke with Jean Bliss. I'm a fan of her, and I. We had her from the cxpa. I'm a member of CXPA and part of the board in the Netherlands, and I think it's very interesting because she said if you don't have board support, get out aboard if you don't have board support. Well, I thought it was just like. But I don't really agree because it could be different next year when somebody else steps into the board. Maybe you cannot make it that big if you want. Yes, it's much more nice when you have board support. But I also think we have a problem in CX leaders that we like to convince others that customer centricity is important. And I think we need to. So we push our opinions, our things that needs to be done. But I think we need to do much more pull to get people in. So make people aware why it's a problem. So we have to think about strategies to have other people trip over the truth as we say it. So instead of bringing it all, think about methodologies. I had one leader, it was very interesting. He had a big problem that they, he could not get to the board. And then he had like this 15 minute time slot and that he, they asked him to send in slides. He said instead of doing that, can I send you the next four weeks, every week, five minutes of an MP3 clip with some calls we get about certain, certain problems. And they said, okay, yeah. And so he sent that. So four weeks, he just dripped five minutes. They would just sit in the car, listen to it. So he did and then he came in and they were fired up. They were like, what are the calls? Are customers talking to us like this about this? And then he got sense of urgency. So I think we need to be much more creative. How can we have others trip over the truth, especially the board?

I think that's wonderful. I love bringing in the voice of the customer. That narrows the distance between the board and the customer. There's normally so many layers of noise and I think your duty as a CX leader should be to cut through that shit and just that then this is what we do.

Yeah.

So I love that. Oh man, I can. I think I really. That's a really good strategy for doing this. Now before I let you go, I just want to collect three tips from you that you've learned over your, over your career. If you were, for everyone listening here, three tips that they can take away that they can put into their, their daily routine.

Oh, okay. Wear a blue dress. No, that's a joke. Yeah, it's more personal branding.

Maybe that is because it's.

Who are you as an authority in your field? So be the authority. And I think I did a couple of courses On Harvard Business School Online, that already gives me authority. But what I love in one of their courses, they say authority is made of three things. Your personal authority, that's your skills, it's what you bring with you. You've got your relational authority. So you get authority by the people that you know or that you are connected to and you get positional authority. It's your titles, it's your books. Do you present at, do you go to CX events? Do you have a. Are you ccxp? I don't know. But that external validation, it can really give you an extra internal platform. And especially I know in Europe that we are not that eager for titles or authority things. So I think be the authority and be recognizable as that CX authority. So that would be my tip number one.

Actually, to be honest, I think you've got three tips there. I mean, I'm just going to play it back to you. Be the authority. Yeah, you represent yourself. Your trademark is a blue dress, which I love, by the way. I brought the. I got the mail.

Thank you.

Relational authority and your positional authority. And I think that's a really good way of doing it. And that's, that is how I think you can get to the board. If you just are authentic, you can demonstrate you know what you're talking about and you bring the content. That's how I did my life.

And I think, and I think really important, always stay friends. I think a lot of people in cxc, the world in, they're against me or what, but they're not, they have different, they have different needs. And once at that time you've not just not been clear. Never I've been in my career, I had a couple of moments that I thought, are you that stupid or am I that smart? And that never helps, or both. But the thing is that never helps. If other people don't understand what I'm explaining, it's my role to do it better. So don't judge too much and make sure that you really understand how can I bring change here? What do I need to do? What's the problem? What's in it for them? And make sure that you don't let it get to you. Because I do think that the burnout rate in CX and then it's going to be really honest is pretty high because it's a difficult job. Everybody wants to be customer centric, but when we look into practice, it's not. And how do we bring that change? And we take a lot of things personal and we should not.

Yeah, I think there is something to do with also being prepared to do a thousand kilometer walk. There is something in that.

Yeah.

There's people I know agree they're either marathon runners or they're long distance walkers. These are the people that work really well. Now link, before I let you go, what are you reading at the moment? What's a good book tip?

It's very interesting, I must say. I was reading this one. Yeah, it's the Harvard Business Review, the Seven Essential Elements of Strategic Success. So I was really diving deeper into strategy because I'm now working on helping CX leaders build better strategies and build better narratives. So I thought I need to get myself. Yeah, I read Harvard Business Review every, every two months when we get it. But this one I still needed to read and I thought I reread it. So Harvard Business Review, the edition of March April.

Good, thanks a lot. And you've got a book out as well?

Yeah, I've got, I've got. Well, I've got a Dutch book. It's called the CX Travel Guide. It's written in Dutch and I've got CX is a pilgrimage. It's snackable content as I call. It's 50 shorts, stories, strategies for CX leaders to spice up their leadership. And I'm now working on my CX story blueprint book. So how do you create that strategy, that change strategy? Because I really want CX leaders to do that themselves. It's not difficult, but it's also not simple. So. But I've got step by step plan that the book will be out in summer, the fall.

Great. Ninka, I just want to say thank you so much for sharing your afternoon with us. I really appreciate it. It was great content. I've really enjoyed speaking to you and anybody who's listening. You can follow Nika Bloom, she's on LinkedIn. It's got a lot of content out there. I really recommend it. Nika. Thank you.

Thank you, Adam.

Hope to speak to you soon.