Building ClickFunnels to $200M a Year & The Future of Marketing with Ryan Pineda

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Hey, what's up? This is Russell. I wanna jump on real quick and just record this before you jump into today's episode. I'm actually really excited for today's episode. For those of you guys who know, when I first got started in this business and when podcasting, YouTube videos, all these things kind of became the thing, I was on everybody's podcasts and shows and channels and making a lot of noise and it was a lot of fun. But then I honestly got tired and I got burned out. When I launched the Expert Secrets book, I ended up doing, I don't even know, like 200 or 300 shows and episodes and news stations, and like, it was so intense, it was during COVID and I just got so burned out that I stopped doing podcast interviews pretty much for almost 3 years. And it was funny because I was speaking at this event in Salt Lake City, it was the day before we went to Funnel Hacking Live this last year, and the guy who's putting on the events, his name is the Muscle, and he's got this huge house and helicopters that fly him around, Fly you to his house and all this, and it was a huge crazy thing. So they had a big speaker dinner at his house the night before and we're up there eating and again, they're helicoptering people into his home and it was kind of crazy. And it's like the who's who of famous people. Like there's David Goggins and Tai Lopez and just like all these people are coming in and there's me and my wife who were like, did not feel super comfortable with that situation, but we were there and having a good time. And anyway, it was, It was cool. And while we were there, a guy came up to me who I'd seen socially, but I didn't know him very well at the time. His name's Ryan Panetta. And we started talking and he told me, he's like, dude, you know that like when you spoke at Grant Cardone's 10X, when you set the world record, he's like, I was in that audience. He's like, you were the first thing I ever bought was yours. Like I'd never bought something before, but your presentation convinced me, I went and bought, and that's what got me in this business now. And he's like, it changed my whole life. And then he's like, you just come on the podcast sometime. I'm like, ah, no, I just haven't done them for a couple years. He's like, I know everyone says you're a hermit. And he's like, you need to come out and actually do a podcast. And I told him, I was like, all right, this is the deal. When I'm ready to start doing podcasts again, you'll be the first one that I come on. And so a couple of weeks ago, I decided, I was like, all right, I just need to, I need to start, I need to rip the Band-Aid off, start doing podcasts again. So I messaged him, I flew down to Vegas and we did this podcast and we were there all day recording and talking. And anyway, it was fun. It was therapeutic. It was, you know, I had a really good time with Ryan. He's a cool guy and I really enjoyed it. And so anyway, he launched a podcast a couple of weeks ago on his, and it was amazing. I got such good feedback. Some people came back to me and were like, man, This was fun, Russ. I listened to it 3 or 4 times. It was cool to hear how vulnerable you got about things. And anyway, I thought it'd be fun for you guys to hear it here as well. So this episode is gonna be, it's a little longer, it's about 2 hours long, but it's gonna be my interview with Ryan Panetta, him interviewing me on his podcast and asking a lot of questions about where I've been the last 3 years, what's been happening in the market and what it looks like and a whole bunch of other things. So I hope you enjoy it. If you do, make sure you go over, subscribe to Ryan's show. He's a super cool guy, he's got a lot of cool guests. And I hope you enjoy this episode. All right, talk soon, thanks guys. In the last decade, I went from being a startup entrepreneur to selling over a billion dollars in my own products and services online. This show's gonna show you how to start, grow, and scale a business online. My name is Russell Brunson, and welcome to the Marketing Secrets Podcast. I'm the funnel dude, I've had more funnels than anyone on this planet. We've got deep funnels, we got front ends, back ends, I got $250,000 back ends, everything. And even amongst that, it's harder and harder to be profitable.

Well, let's talk about that. Why is the paid stuff scaring you now?

Um, just the cost to acquire customers is insane.

So we've talked a lot about just products and offers and obviously running the company, but I want to talk about some applicable things to just people listening. So one question I always get— today I had Russell Brunson come by the office and give his first ever interview in the last 3 years. If you don't know who he is, he's the founder of ClickFunnels, which is a company doing over $200 million a year and most of it is recurring revenue. So I'm talking about a business that is worth hundreds of millions of dollars. He talked about what it was like building that business, but also what it's been like the last couple of years having to really completely change it and deal with backlash from those changes from customers who have loved him over the years to then having to deal with controversy from that, dealing with controversy from a viral wrestling moment when he was coaching his son. You know, we talked about what it's like dealing with haters. We talked about the biggest mistakes that he's made in business. He really opened up about what it takes to become a great entrepreneur and how you get through the adversity. We also talked about where the education business is going and how you have to get on recurring revenue. And it's something that's really important to me because I'm undergoing a huge shift in my business. So being able to pick his brain on this interview, as well as having him stay at my office for 5 hours after and train my team and just being able to learn from him, was such a treat for myself. And I know you guys are going to enjoy this episode too. It's one of my favorite ones that I've ever done. So let's jump into it. What's up, Wealth Builders? Today I've got someone special on the podcast. This dude, um, some would consider the GOAT of the marketing industry. He is the guy most known for creating all the funnels you guys see online today. Um, he has a business that's doing over $200 million a year in revenue. And a lot of that, 9 figures of it, is recurring revenue as a SaaS product. This is the founder of ClickFunnels, Russell Brunson. What's up, man?

Hey, man, I'm excited to be here and hanging out with you finally.

I know, dude. I challenged you maybe, I don't know, 6 months ago and I said, dude, when are you going to come out to Vegas? You're a hermit. You need to leave Boise. And here we are.

Here we are. This is the first podcast interview I've done in like 3 years. So there you go. I'm coming out of my shell. And anyway, but excited to be hanging out with you.

We got the exclusive, guys. So Hey, all right, since that's being said, why? Why now?

Yeah, I think a lot of reasons. Like, number one is obviously I have my business, which is a big part of my life. That's big as well. And I'm very involved in my kids' lives and my son's a wrestler and this year is a senior year and season ended and I'm also a part-time coach. So I'm, you know, I've been coaching and so now that's over, like my coaching side of my life is kind of finished and I'm like, okay, that buys back 3 hours a day that I can start focusing on other things. And yes, that's a big part is a little more time opened up. So I'm like, okay, I got to get back in here. Also, the other selfish motivation is I'm watching guys like you and other people who are getting so much organic free traffic. I look at our business right now and how much we spend on paid media. I was like, I have to start doing more organic stuff on my own side just because ad costs have gone up so dramatically. And so yeah, yeah. So like I was talking to your editors earlier, like I'm working, like we just relaunched our YouTube channel, relaunching our podcast, like all those things we're doubling down on with the extra time. And my goal is in a year from now to be able to be getting more traffic from organic than we are from paid because paid stuff scares me, which we could go down that rabbit hole a long time, but it's just getting harder and harder for everybody.

Well, let's talk about that. Why is the paid stuff scaring you now?

Just the cost to acquire customers is insane. And I look at— again, I'm the funnel dude. I've had more funnels than anyone on this planet. We've got deep funnels, we have front ends, back ends, about $250,000 back ends, everything. And even amongst that, it's harder and harder to be profitable. I look at people who have a traditional business, like, how are they— it's so much harder to do it. And so I'm trying to really master, understand it partially for ourselves to give stability to us, but also to be able to train our people so that they're not reliant on these, you know, crazy ad costs. And these just part of it's the way like advertising media has happened for a long time, right? Like Dan Kennedy, who's my first mentor, he was telling this story at Funnel Hacking Live about how when late night infomercials like TV used to play like 10:00 at night, they would just turn off like there's no TV. And him, a bunch of guys were like, went to the TV station like, hey, can we buy that airtime? Why would you want that? Everyone's asleep. They're like, I don't know. So finally they convinced some studio to let them have like from midnight till 6 a.m. or something. And they bought it for like, say, $20 for that ad time. And they started running infomercials and they were killing it. Just like media was free. They were the only ones doing it. It was, you know, basically free and they were killing it. And then the radio station or the TV station started seeing what they were doing and then they started opening to other people and it went from like $20 for 8 hours, you know, segment to like all of a sudden people were paying $20, $30 grand for an hour because, you know, more people found out about it and costs went up. And same thing with ads. Like we started Facebook ads 10 years ago.

They were a handful of dollars.

Yeah, it was amazing. And we thought it was expensive. They're like, how is this possible? Now it's like, you know, I mean, we have some campaigns, we're paying $10 per lead off Facebook. I'm like, God, like, how does the average person do that? Right?

We pay any— we usually pay like $30 for an opt-in to like learn about WealthCon.

Isn't that crazy?

It's insane.

It's insane. Yeah. So it's like if you don't have a good funnel and good backend and that kind of stuff, like you can't, you can't play this game unless you master organic. And so one of my big realizations, I have friends right now who are 100% YouTube driven and it's crazy because they'll post YouTube video. That video will make them 20, 30 grand and it'll send 8,000 people to their funnel or whatever it is. You know what I mean? Like, yeah, I'm like, that's like you're getting paid upfront and then you're driving ads to your thing. Like my podcast, right? We just signed up with a sponsor who's now has all these people that are buying ads on my podcast. I'm like, I'm making like, I don't know, it's like $15,000 per podcast episode and it's driving traffic to my funnels. So I'm trying to find more of those kind of things we can do where it just shifts around where I'm getting paid to drive traffic to my funnels versus paying so much to drive traffic. So yeah.

Yeah, I think it's just getting more creative with customer acquisition.

Yeah.

Like I've cut a similar deal like that. I mean, obviously, like on my podcast, I just sponsor myself.

Yeah, right.

But yeah, but You know, like for example, I have a deal with an IRA company, so now like I'm running ads for them and, you know, they're paying us a retainer to run the ads. And then we also get the leads and they get the leads and we split profits and all these other things. And like, it's a great way, like for me, you know, there's not really much risk because I'm not covering the ad spend and I'm getting paid to do it. Like, you know, we're talking about here.

Yeah.

And it's interesting too, because I did the opposite of what most direct marketers do. Like I started organic first. I had no idea how to run ads. And then I later started running ads the last couple of years and it became clear to me too, like even just in the last year, I'm like, dude, if you don't have any organic content, how are you making money? Because if they see your ad and then they want to go look you up, like what happens?

Yeah. It's so interesting because it didn't used to, though. It used to be an ad to a funnel thing. Now it's like an ad makes people aware of you. So they go and they stalk you and they follow you. If you don't have those things in place, you're 100% right. Like, it's, it's a lot of our clients who do that, who don't have the organic, and it's just like their ad costs are so much higher because, yeah, it's, it's—

but you used to be able to convert easily with not having any organic. It's just, oh, they watched the webinar, the VSL, and they're—

I got started before social media was a thing at all. Like, pre-Facebook, it was even easier back then because there was no, like, they could—

you can't even look you up.

They could Google you, but like, it was not hard to like make sure you were looking on the first page of Google, right? And now it's like they're Googling you, then they're looking on Instagram and TikTok, and then they're checking you out. Like, they're hitting all the platforms to see if they like you or not. While they're watching your webinar, while they're, you know, whatever the thing might be. And so like, if you're not able to engage them at that level, like, it's just the costs get astronomical. Whereas if you are able to, they watch 4 or 5 things like, wow, I really like this person, then they're in. Um, but you got to have that, that foundation or else you're in trouble.

Yeah. So you're going all in on organic along with obviously still doing your paid and the funnels and everything.

Yeah, for sure.

Now that's awesome. So, you know, I'll give a little story to the viewers. You know this, but, um, You know, I went to my first business event, 10X Growth Con, in 2018, and you were one of the guys and you did what is now like a legendary pitch. I didn't even know I was being pitched, like, whatever, right? I had never bought—

it always works that way, right?

Yep. I never knew. I never bought coaching or anything to that point. But after your pitch, I was like, I don't even know, like, what I'm going to buy, like, what this is or what it— but like, I'll buy it. And it was like $3,000 or something at the time. And I think you sold like $3 million, right?

Yeah.

$3.2 million in an hour.

Yeah.

Right. And I was like, if all these people are buying this, like, I'm going to buy it too. So I bought it. And you know, the truth of the matter was I got a book and I got like a year of ClickFunnels. I didn't use ClickFunnels at all. Cause I just still, like at that time I was building my real estate business and scaling that. And then I was like, but you know, I'm going to start creating the products. And I read the book. I think it, I think it was Expert Secrets with that. I can't remember. And I read it and it actually made me write my first book, Flip Your Future. So I wrote my first book, then I made my first course. And, you know, that took time. And by the time it was done, you know, I launched it and, you know, I had some sales. Like, the book actually did really good, but I did not like try to get course sales and I didn't have coaching or any of that stuff. But your, your talk did influence me to say, okay, I will like I will create content. I will do education because at the time, I was very anti-guru because I think there's—

You don't want to become one for sure.

Yeah. I was already really successful in real estate. I'm like, I don't want to be one of these guys that's not doing the thing but selling the thing. And so, I was just focused on building real estate. And then around 2020, a couple of years later was when I started getting on social media, getting the organic content. Coaching really took off without me really, I guess, realizing that, oh man, all this traffic, they want to learn now because I'm just putting out valuable content.

Yeah.

So kudos to you because like you, you were the, you were the fire to that. But I'll add another thing too. So after I bought it, um, you know, I get a call about Funnel Hacking Live, which was maybe like a couple of months after. Yeah. So I'm like, all right, I'll get a ticket. So I bought a ticket. Went to Funnel Hacking Live, and I do remember you saying something about how social media was the new, like, just form of media. And you did this presentation. I still have the pictures in my phone to this day where you were like, you know, podcast is the new radio, IGTV, or IG is like the new reality TV. Yeah, YouTube is like sitcoms. Do you remember that?

Yep.

And that actually made a lot of sense to me. I was like, I get that. That makes sense. Like, that is where the world's going.

It's fascinating because that time is the first time that we could act— like, for me to be on a sitcom or like, we couldn't, right? And social media where like all of us could be a sitcom star or be a reality TV show star. Like, really fascinating time.

Well, now you look back, you know, that was in 2018, you know, 6 years later, you're like, oh yeah, like, dude, I watch these people on Instagram stories and stuff every day. Reality TV, YouTube, you know, MrBeast and these guys have taken it to just extreme levels of— no, dude, like, I would much rather watch a MrBeast video or this guy, you know, versus a sitcom. I got to go figure out. Oh, yeah. You know, and then even how big podcasts have blown up in the last 5 years is kind of incredible to see, you know, Joe Rogan getting paid.

Yeah.

I think most entrepreneurs, like, their performed thing of like watching or doing is a podcast.

It's funny. I remember sitting in the room the very first time the word podcast came out. It was like, there's this new thing called podcasts, and this is 20 years ago. And I was like, that's the stupidest thing. No one's ever going to do that. And it took like 7 or 8 years after that before started— people started actually doing it. But I remember like thinking back, like I was there when people were first talking about it and I didn't start a podcast. I thought it was stupid.

Like, yeah.

And now it's like, you know, again, it's a huge part of our business and everything we do is our podcast. But yeah, yeah, I missed it back then.

Why do you think podcasting and YouTube and these things are so important now? Because like you were calling it out in 2018. That's what makes me think about— I'm like, dude, he, he called it for what it was. 6 years ago and like it's just really blown up. And then, you know, I mean, I guess from your side you're like, all right, I really need to go back to organic content. Like, how does that work in life where it's like you knew, but maybe you didn't do it to the degree that you thought you should have?

Yeah.

Or were you just busy?

I think it's a lot of stuff, you know. We were building a company and it grew and the things that worked fast, we doubled down on, right? So if ads worked for us, like, oh, this is simple, easy, direct ROI, and we're spreading so fast. And ClickFunnels launched, it's only been 10 years, 10 years, but like it came out of the gate. So we were running. And so I think a lot of times it was like organic takes longer, you know, like you don't just post your first video and then get, you know, 100,000 views. It takes more effort and energy. And I think that I was— I wasn't able to put that effort in because we were having so much success on the paid side.

It wasn't really worth it.

Yeah, I think that's a big part of it. And now it's coming back. Like I said, the costs are going up. We're now like, okay, gosh, I wish I would have 5 years ago really doubled down because But, you know, I think at the same time, it's never too late. Like, I think in my mind, I'm like, we are doubling down for the next 12 months really, really aggressively. I think the next 12 months, again, I don't know if it'll catch up to paid, but I'm hoping it gets close to it, you know, because the, the $1.5 million, $2 million a month I give Zuckerberg, it'd be amazing if like I was able to match that with organic or cut some of that budget, whatever that ends up looking like, you know what I mean?

Yeah. So to build ClickFunnels to this point, I mean, like we talked about earlier, you guys got over $100 million a month in like continuity stuff.

Not a month, a year. A year.

Sorry. Yeah.

$100 million a month would be insane though. That's the next goal.

Yeah. So 9 figures a year and then, um, you know, you still have your inner circle and all the other products and things you guys sell. And I mean, to do that in less than 10 years is crazy.

Yeah. Like from scratch with no— I always think back, I'm not like a tech guy. I'm not a tech guy. We didn't have VC backing or funding or we still don't. Like it was all just, just scrapping along. And it was interesting because, you know, we— I have a partner who's technical, so he built the software. And, you know, when we first got done, I was like, hey, well, how do people launch software companies? And so we saw what they were doing. So we kind of modeled what software companies were doing. It didn't work. I'm like, kept trying different, like, you know, a typical SaaS website. We're trying that, trying things that like nothing was working. And we were trying to like do what, you know, what these people were doing, not knowing at the time, like, oh, the reason why they're able to do that is because they got $100 million in funding and they can spend, you know, $300 to get a trial. We couldn't do that, right? And so it was almost like I tried 5 or 6 different versions of trying to make that work. And finally I was like, I'm just going to do the way that I know. Like, I'm, you know, I used to speak on seminars on stages and we did webinars. I'm just doing a webinar to sell this. And so we put together our very first webinar and basically the same presentation you saw at 10X back in 2018. I made that presentation and did the very first, you know, it was a live event. Someone invited me to speak at this event. I showed up and I did the pitch and it was the first time I'd ever like actually had— I heard people talk about table rushes and I've seen videos of it. The first time I made the pitch, I was like, $1,000 a year, ClickFunnels, and then you get all these other bonuses for the year. Yeah, yeah, that's way more. But that was the first time I saw people like jumping over the tables to get to the back. Someone like throwing their credit card at the people. I was like, I heard about this, but I thought it was like a joke. But I've seen it happening. I was like, this is insane. I remember we went to dinner that night with Todd and Dylan, my two co-founders, and we're all just excited because like we had, I don't know, I don't remember, it was probably 150 people bought it at this event, right? So like $150,000 we just made where we had been 8 months, you know, a year and a half of them building with no money coming in, 8 or 4 or 5 months of us trying to sell, nothing coming in. Austin's like, boom, we made $150,000 in a night. So we're all just having fun at dinner and I was just, I was more quiet. They were more just kind of goofing off and I was like, I said, do you realize what just happened? Like, yeah, we made $150 grand. Like, like, like that presentation, like, do you see people jumping over? Like, that was the message. Like, that's the message. Like, we figured it out. Like, that was a message that gets people to like, to get out of their seat, to run, to like, to do this thing. Yeah. I think any business, like, that's the hardest part is figuring out what's the message that gets people so excited they're going to jump up and run to like do business with you. Right. And I told them, I was like, now we have this message like figured out. I was like, this is And I didn't— I was like, we can make $100 million. Like, that's what I thought, which we just passed $1 billion in collected sales, which is crazy. Wow. But the goal is $100 million. Like, there's no way. But so I took that presentation that we knew worked, and I remember flying home from that event. I started texting everyone I knew who had any kind of, like, following email list or social media following. I was like, I have a webinar. I just did it. Crushed. You want to do a webinar with me? And, you know, most people, like 85%, either ignored me or said no, but like 15%, like, sure, I'll run the webinar. And so I get back to Boise Next day we set up a landing page in ClickFunnels. That person promotes the webinar. And then, you know, 2 days later I jump on and I do the same presentation and it crushes again. But what's interesting is like, is I had 2 presentations that day and the first one I did it, I can't remember the exact numbers. It was like $30,000 or $40,000 in sales, which was great. I was like freaking out. Yeah, I remember one of the guys on my team, he exported all of the comments that people were posting in the webinar and I started reading through them. I was like, oh my gosh, like minute 12, everyone's asking this question or they're stuck or I said something confusing. So back to my slides, I found that part and I kind of tweaked it a little bit and then went down. Minute 38, it's like there was confusion. I went to the offer. People kept asking the same questions. They were confused. I just went back and I made those little tweaks to the presentation. And then that night I did the second webinar, but with the cleaned up slides. And that time, same, same size people, same amount of people were on that webinar, maybe even a little less. We did like $150,000 in sales. I was like, holy crap. So like, we export the questions again. I read through them again and I start seeing like, okay, these ones are answered, but they're stuck here and they're stuck here. And I just kept tweaking that. So I tweaked the slides and the next day we did another webinar, another one. I did, I think I did, it was like 80 or 90 webinars live in that first year, just over. And every single time we'd export it, tweak it, export and tweak it to the point like, like I knew the pitch perfect. I knew every concern was going to come up before it came up. I knew every, like all that stuff I just knew. It's like when I went to Grant's event, I'm on stage, you know, we were joking before. Grant's telling me like, just don't just pitch it. Tell them the price up front. I was like, I was like, I promise you, like I've done that. I know exactly what's going to get them to work. And we did the presentation made the thing. And, you know, in a stadium of 9,000 people, 1,000 of them jumped up, ran to the back of the room and signed up for it. You know what I mean? And that's how we built the company. It was just that. It's like we do webinars, explain the product, make an offer. And then the other piece that was really powerful is that just because people didn't buy on the webinar, when someone registered for the webinar on the landing page afterwards, we tell them like, hey, before the webinar shows up, go get a free trial of the ClickFunnels and just play with it that way. When you show up, you know what this is. And what was interesting is from that, like the end of year one, we had 2,500 people had bought the $1,000 version, but 7,500 people had signed up for continuity and it stuck. And so you look at the math on that. Most people have a webinar and, you know, they make— they'll make $2.5 million. Like, that's amazing. But if you look at 7,500 people paying $97 a month, yeah, that's like $9 million. Is it $9 million in ARR or something? It's like, yeah, there's the bulk of the money. And that was like the aha for us.

It's like, okay, because you don't see it right away.

Yeah, you don't see it, but compounds. Webinar after webinar, event after event. And so like we came back, okay, that's, that's the model. Like we're just going to do webinars, tell people about ClickFunnels, make some money there, but then that money reinvest in ads and like the real businesses, people sign up for the trials after they register for the webinar. And so for a decade that's been the model and we've been pushing that and pushing that. And I've done that webinar, I don't even know how many times, hundreds of times at this point. And it just works. And so like that's how we built the company. And I think I look at anybody with a company that's trying to grow, it's just like the key is like figuring out the message, but then not stopping and then like keep tweaking it and tweaking it until it just gets perfect. Perfect. And then after you have that, then you can start dumping money and energy into growing and scaling that thing. And so yeah, that's kind of the—

that's how we did it. What I mean, obviously I think the $3 million was the most you guys had ever made on like a pitch, right? Like how— what was the reaction at that point? Like what did Grant say?

I don't think he was just like, kind of confused. He's like, wow, I've never seen that. Yeah, it was crazy. Like, we sold more than all the other speakers combined, which is, which is crazy. It was interesting because like I went to the event, it was more like an ego because I knew somebody who'd done $1 million from stage. Like that was like the standing record. And so I was like, okay, he did $1 million in 90 minutes. I was like, I want to be able to say that I took home $1 million in 90 minutes, but in an hour. But I was like, it's a 90-minute presentation. So ahead of time, we're like, if we do $3 million, it means my take-home was $1 million an hour. So that was kind of the goal going into it. Yeah. And but, but then like it became like an obsession as we were working towards it because like, okay, if that's really the goal, like what are we going to do? And this is like, I think where most people miss on their goals is they like, they don't pick a definite purpose. Like, this is the thing I'm going to do. They're like, oh, I'm going to try to be successful. For us, it was like $3 million in 90 minutes. That's the goal. We have to— so like we spent so much time reverse engineering, like how are we going to do it? And we're in the stadium, this huge stadium, right? And we're like, and I talked about Grant's like had everybody like buy on their, on their phone. Like, no, do not buy on the phone because then The internet could— like, well, the internet doesn't work. What if this doesn't work? Or what if, like, there's no social proof, no one's moving. So I was like, we have to do paper forms. And they're like, well, how are we going to get paper forms out to, like, you know, it's Mandalay Bay, this huge stadium with seats. Like, how are we going to do that? It's like, okay, well, what if we, like, put an order form in everyone's chair? But like, then they know we're selling them something. So it's like, and then, like, if they have an order form, they might not have a pen. How do you even fill out an order form? So, okay, let's figure out a way. How do we get an order form on their chair with a pen but not let them know it's an order form? Like, how do we sneak attack it? So we made these little, like, these things where it's like, it was like this envelope and you open it up and there's a spot to take notes and a pen, but it was like sealed. It had a big sticker like, don't open this till Russell Brunson presents. And then we tried to get them on the chairs, but they were sliding off people's chairs. So we had to go out and buy these bags, hook on the chair. It was this whole like reverse engineering every possible scenario, right? And it was cool. It was like when we did the presentation, everyone had this thing. I had them open the presentation, pull out the notes with the pen. So they had a pen in hand and notes, they're taking notes. Yeah. And most of them didn't even see the order form in the envelope. I didn't address it. So we're going through it, but we're thinking through all those pieces. And then we're like, well, how do we get people— like, where are we going to set people up to run and how are we going to— like, it's just really choreographing all the different pieces of that to make it happen. And I think then when it actually happened, it was nuts because it was just like, I can't believe we actually did that. I think a lot of times people don't choreograph the process well enough. They go out and just kind of shotgun approach and hopefully it works. And I think on my side, I was trying to think through all the little pieces, like how do we create the experience event in a way that like gives people the greatest like happiness, but also like sets up sales in the greatest, the greatest way. And there's, yeah, that choreography, the choreography, that's so huge.

I think like the thing that sticks out to me is you guys, I mean, you had spent, you'd already done 100 of that presentation before, you know, so it's like me watching it from the audience. I don't know how many times you've done this thing or whatever, or like, you know, anything, but I'm looking at the end result and I'm like, dude, that guy killed it. And you don't see all the work that you just explained. You had to do 100 of them for the year before. You had to think about the bags and the order, the envelope, every minute detail that could affect the conversion. You had already processed it in your head.

Yeah, for sure. It seems like I watch people, I try to coach people now who want to speak from stage or do webinars and half the time they're just winging it. I was like, there's presentations I wing, like when I'm teaching and training at my big events, like I'm— I got a direction I'm going. But when I'm selling something, I get scripted. Like I know exactly where I'm taking my drink of water. I know when I'm laughing, I know the joke I'm going to land. I know, like, like none of that's left to chance. Like, it's too important to leave to chance. Like, I got to make sure that's— it's not script like I wrote out and memorized. It's just like I just know the pacing. I know it's supposed to be— I know, you know, and you can feel it. And it's interesting because I see people who leave a lot more to chance and some days they have big sales days other days it bombs and it's like the same presentation. They don't know why. It's just like because they're going off script. It's like, yeah, when you're trying to execute a sale, like the script is the key.

Yeah, I am very guilty of being the other guy. I think I lean more with Grant where I'm just like, hey guys, like, look, this is the thing you should buy. Buy it or don't. Like, you know, but I hope you buy it because I think it's going to help. And, you know, I kind of wing everything. And I gotta quit doing that. Cause even, I don't know, dude, it's just one of those things, right? Where you have so much success doing it that you're just like, yeah, I mean, why change it? You know, I was interviewing Ed Mylett and he goes, hey, where did you learn to podcast and like interview people? Like you're good. And I was like, well, I just show up and I talk and it's great. You know, I'm just naturally curious. Of the people I'm speaking to and I ask questions that I personally just want to answer. And he's like, you know, you'd probably do better if you just prepped a little bit more. And I was like, yeah, I'll have to do that.

If you look at my life, he's got his speeches. Oh yeah, he's dialed in the best ever. But it's like the same story, same lines. Like he's just, he's nailed, he's created it. And we talked about this earlier, Tony Robbins, UPW, like, like me and you, like I do my big funnel hack live, but you do your event. Like It's different every single time. Tony, like 30 years ago, he wrote UPW. He does it 4 times a year for 30 years. Word for word, I'm not, but pretty close. Same thing with Date with Destiny. It was like he wrote Date with Destiny and it became a thing he did twice a year for 40 years. You know, it's interesting.

Once you have something that works, why change it?

Yeah.

I was actually surprised because when I saw you in Utah, I knew you were speaking and I was like, what are you going to talk about? You're like, you know that presentation you saw in 2018? Yeah, I'm going to do that.

And I was like, okay, why you tweak it? Because it works. Yeah. New audience all the time. That's the big problem. I think people understand is like, is I talked to Mary Ellen Tribby. She, she's a fascinating marketer. She went a couple of companies. She came to the companies are doing like $3 or $4 million a year. She came in and she took them from $3 million to like $80 million. And she did like 3 or 4 times. And I asked her, how in the world do you do that? Because, you know, at the time I think my business was doing $3 million. I'm like, how did you take a business from $3 to $80 in like 18 months? Like, what's the secret? And it was so fascinating. She's like, you marketers, she's like, You guys do the equivalent of like writing a Hollywood play, right? You hire the best screenwriters and actors and you practice and you rehearse. And then because you live in Boise, Idaho, you put on the play in Boise, Idaho, you know, you promote it, people come in and they, you know, opening day, curtains are up, you do the thing, it nails it, curtains close, everyone loves it, gives a standing ovation, and then it ends. And next day you write a new play. And she's like, all I do is instead of writing a new play, she's like, I take the show from Boise, Idaho, and I take it on the road. I take it to Boise, to Chicago, to New York, over and over and over again. And so for me, it's like when she told me at the very beginning of ClickFunnels journey, I was like, oh, because I was going to try to write another webinar pitch. And I was like, no, just take it on the road. There's a million audiences never heard this. Like, why do I need, you know, in Utah, that event? Yeah, I don't know how many people I can remember people had in the room, but I would say maybe 5% ever heard of me before. And the rest of them was brand new people. It's like, yeah, why deviate?

Keep with, you know, just keep the whole thing going.

So taking the show on the road 10 years later.

So what do you do when things don't work out? Right. Because you got the same pitch per se, but, you know, different audiences respond differently. Like, do you think that if an audience doesn't respond, is it just the audience or you screwed up? Like, how do you differentiate that?

There's a lot of variables that are fascinating that I learned on this journey that were like, for example, I remember going to the UK the very first time and I'm so excited to go to UK. I see Big Ben, like all that, you know? Yeah, I'm excited. I go to the audience and I've never— I don't— I've never been in that situation. And I do this presentation, same presentation stuff. And it does not go well. I get bombs. I remember later reading in like some Facebook groups that the attendees were at, like, like they were—

it was—

they were mean. Like, they did not like me. Like, the fact that I was like this annoying— I think they called me Yankee or something, all these things. Like, and I was like, oh my gosh, like, people in the UK hate me. And so I didn't go back for 3 or 4 years. And then this deal happened. Jay Abraham was trying to get me to come back. I was like, oh, people in the UK hate me. He's like, he's like, just come back. And so I went back. But I remember ahead of time, like, I studied people, like, understand, like, what do people there think about Americans? Like, how does it work? And it was fascinating because I was like, I realized, like, their perception of Americans way different than I would have assumed. And so I went back the second time and I was like, okay, I have to understand that these people think I'm an annoying Yankee American, whatever they call, you know. So instead, like, I was very self-deprecating, made fun of me, made fun of our president, make fun of the states. And like, it shifted the whole tone of it. And what's weird is in America, people jump up and run the back of them. In the UK, they don't. They were very proper and they sit there and wait. And so like the first time, no one's running back rooms. I freaked out. So I was like trying to like do stuff and I'm like telling them to go to the back. I think they were just annoyed because, yeah, you know, this time I was like, okay, this is their culture is different. And by understanding the audience ahead of time, then we crushed that time. And so that's what I've learned biggest, even going to audience. Like, I hate speaking the first day of an event. Like, I hate when, when promoters like, can I have your slides? Like, you've done this webinar a million times, give me the slides. I'm like, no, like, I want to sit in the room. Like, for Grants, I spoke strategically on day 2 before lunch. Like, that's the spot. I wanted a day and a half to, like, sit in the audience and, like, understand the audience. I was sitting in the room amongst all these people listening to speakers interacting. I was changing slides and tweaking stuff based on, like, what was happening in the room. Like, I didn't realize Grant's audience— I walk in, like, everyone's decked out in suits. They're all alpha males. They're like, oh, this is not like my normal audience. My audience is very mixed, you know, male, female, like all that kind of stuff.

I was like, this is Just online people. These people are like salespeople.

Yeah, I was like, so I shifted. If you notice, if you watch that presentation, like, I had to shift the pacing. Like, usually I'm more like, I'm more like, you know, I'm kind of playing with the audience. This was like I had to take command of the audience because I was like, if I— if they don't respect me immediately, like, I'm screwed. Yeah, these people are all alphas. And so, like, I had to take control. It was all these things I shifted to make sure that, that I could captivate their, their attention, their trust out of the gate. One of the problems I had in Salt Lake, I went to that one, like, I was day one and I was Or maybe it was only a one-day event, right?

Yeah, it was only one day. Yeah.

So I'm trying to tweak.

You don't even know what they're doing.

Yeah, it was. And then it was all sorts of chaos. It was. Yeah, it was all sorts of chaos, but it was like I was backstage. Yeah, I was not able to. Yeah, yeah, we can talk about that. Yeah. But yeah, so I think that's a big part of it is understanding like audiences are different. A lot of times you try to figure out the person whose audience it is, like they sync with it, right? Like I remember doing a deal with Jeff Walker. Jeff Walker's audience, which, you know, Jeff. No. He's a big product launch guy. He's amazing, but he's very much like very calm and very, you know, and like his whole team he works with, they're all, they're all like synced to that level. His audience are all very calm and I'm like the— you know, like, yeah, this guy's a nut. Yeah. It's like when I work with them, it's like I have to like, I have to change how I speak. I have to be a lot slower or else they just think I'm this nut, you know? Yeah. So it's like a lot of times it's syncing with the person's audience and like mirroring and matching their energy levels as you're presenting to be able to You know, and then sometimes it's just, sometimes offers fatigue, sometimes the webinars at work, like, uh, well, that's what I was going to ask about.

Cause like, okay, so in Utah, that was the last time I've seen you pitch. And like, I was just thinking in my head, I'm like, okay, everyone in this crowd is like some young kid that's, uh, like in door-to-door sales and like hustling and sell. Like, I don't know that they need ClickFunnels. Like that was my perception. I'm like, I don't see them like making online stuff and like creating offers. Like I see them just hustling, trying to go get sales. Cause you know, we're in Utah, the door-to-door capital of the world. And, uh, it was just interesting for me to watch. I'm like, I don't know how this is going to go.

Yeah. I think if I had more time to tweak and then also like my demo didn't work, like they forgot to download the web. Like there was so much chaos tied around that. But, um, but yeah, there's definitely, you have to, I mean, Dan Kennedy, again, my first mentor, he talks about message to market match. Like you have to match that thing. It's like those who aren't willing to put in the time to like make sure the message matches, it falls. I think that, that was a good example for me, like not having enough time to like match the message.

Yeah. What do you think of offer fatigue? So like, I mean, to your point, you know, you're selling ClickFunnels as like the core offer and then obviously you've had your different coaching programs and things too, but like Does ClickFunnels fatigue? Do you have to keep changing it? Like, how does that work?

Yeah, it's a— and that's the hardest thing. I've been selling ClickFunnels every day for a decade, you know, which is like, how do you make this sexy again? How do you talk about it differently? There's always new audiences coming in, but I think a big part of it is the core offer doesn't shift, but everything around it does, right? So, I mean, you see this, I'm sure, with social and like paid ads, like paid ads. I was reading this Well, sorry, one of my friends went to Facebook's agency, whatever, and they were sitting there and said that Facebook wants people to update their creative on their ads every 1.5 weeks. They want creative to go fast.

That's a lot of work.

And I had this conversation with Dean Graziosi. Dean, you know, those who know him, he's the infomercial guy. He ran infomercials. He said that when they would write a good webinar or a good infomercial, it would run for like 2 to 5 years and then it would start— it would over time go down. They'd write a new webinar or sorry, new infomercial. But it had longevity, right? And then you look at when I first got started on Facebook, like we create ads and they would run for 6 months or whatever. Like now it sounds like 1.5 weeks is how often they want you refreshing your creative, which is hard. So creative wears out really, really fast. And then like, so if creative's the one you have to do the most, the second is like then the hook of the thing, right? So like my old hooks to get people on the presentation, those have fatigued for sure. So I'm always coming with different hooks, different angles, different markets we're going after specifically. So for example, We did a webinar with Brooke Castillo a few months back and she's, you know, she, she's the queen of the life coaching industry. She coaches all the life coaches. And so the hook was like, here's the sales funnel for life coaches to get whatever. So it's like the hook shifts for that audience. The offer is exactly the same. Yeah. And so the offer does fatigue over time, but it's the last to fatigue. It's usually the creative, then the hooks, and then, and then the offers further down because, I mean, we're still a decade in and the offer still works pretty well, but how we wrap everything around it changes a lot more often.

So what do you think about, you know, having an offer that is so like pliable that can be molded to so many things, right? Because I have a real estate offer and I think about it and I'm like, there's not like a ton we can do with that.

You could, though. It just takes being creative. Like, I would like real estate for— I would do a deal. Let's say it's a UFC fighter, find a UFC fighter, like real estate for, for combat athletes. And then now you have a whole segment you go after and they have real estate for college kids, do real estate for— like I'd be segmenting that way, but it's still going to the same offer. Same offer. Yeah. But like, you think about this, like if you walk into a bookstore, you say 10 books like internet marketing, internet marketing, internet marketing for, for college wrestlers, and I'm a college wrestler, I'm going to buy the college wrestler one, you know what I mean? I think segmenting down. And so that's probably what I do. I try to find— I would try to find a celebrity in each of those markets to co-brand with. Like, for example, we're talking right now, I was telling you we filmed yesterday with Damon John. Yeah. So Damon John's a big brand, obviously. And so we have— and he's tradition is e-commerce. So ClickFunnels has an e-commerce engine that's coming out. We're really excited about partnering with Damon because it's like Damon's the king of e-commerce and he's giving people free e-commerce store inside of ClickFunnels. That's the whole offer. But the offer, you know, we also left ClickFunnels, but it's like, it's like we took a feature of ClickFunnels, which is e-commerce stores and cart funnels, tied it with Damon because he's a celebrity, does e-com. And then now we have a whole new channel that, you know, that, that offer, if it goes well, could run for a couple of years. You know, so looking at those kind of things, it's just—

how do you get Dame and John to keep making you creatives every, you know, 1.5 weeks though?

That's, that is true. Yeah, that's a lot harder. But with like with the deal we have, we have 6 hours to go film this. We film as much creative as we can in 6 hours. Yeah. And then we're spinning it, making different versions. We're— yeah. And the bigger the brand is, the more longevity is because, you know, they're, they're, they're big, you know.

Well, it always goes back to what we just said at the beginning of just having good organic content, right? Like You know, you're going to have to pay Damon John because of the work he's built, you know, or put in to build his personal brand. And, you know, you're looking for other guys with personal brands and women and, um, it's a lot of work, but like, that's like part of using your brand. If you, you know, now you can use it for other things.

Yeah. Yeah, for sure.

Anyway. Yeah. It's crazy. But like, I guess too, with ClickFunnels, how is it with, you know, just continuing to develop the product? Cause like, as we know in tech, I mean, tech is changing so fast all the time. And I think probably when you started ClickFunnels, there wasn't a ton of competitors. Now there's a bunch of competitors and other things. So like, how do you deal with that?

Yeah. So it's interesting. Yeah, you're 100% right. We launched ClickFunnels. We were the first, which gave us an advantage. It was awesome for 5 or 6 years. We had a lot of people come in that tried to compete. None of them were great. And so that was the journey. And we ran that for and 6 and a half years or so. And then we got to a point where it's like, what do we do next? And so that's whenever it starts. You know, we had people from year one trying to buy us or acquire us, but we always kind of pushed it off just as a thing. And so after 6 years, we finally like, well, let's just like, let's see what this looks like, what's possible. And so we decided to put ourselves out on the market and it was crazy. A whole different experience. I don't know if you've had a chance to— it was a whole different world. Yeah, a whole set of new sharks that are way smarter than you. You're just like, I feel like Yeah, I feel like I'm walking into like, you know, they're smarter than me. I know. But we did that whole process, spent a year going through it. It was fascinating because you start with, you know, 100 companies and it goes down to eventually come down to a couple and they're bidding against each other. And we ended up getting a couple of really good offers that were like, oh, this is— this could be potentially good. But it also was like we knew some of the competitors were coming in and stuff like that. It was like I felt like we were sold. The people who would have bought it, I don't think it would have been around in 5 years from then. We would have had an exit and a payday. We knew what we wanted to create to make it, to make it something that's going to be around for the next 20 years, but it would require us rebuilding from the ground up. And so we decided to decline the offer and then intend to rebuild from the ground up, which was one of the hardest things ever done. We thought it was going to take us a year to rebuild. It took us 2 years to get to the point where it was working for us internally, and then we rolled out to our customers. We definitely rolled it out earlier than we should have. When you're using a platform, you don't see the bugs. When we did our big launch, we had 18,000 people sign up in a day and all of a sudden we realized like, oh my gosh, like there's way more bugs. Yeah. So it definitely was, was, was it was a year of us just getting under that control, which is brutal. It was hard. We lost a lot of people because of that, you know, so that was hard. And then we spent the last year since then really making it I'm really proud of it now. In fact, we're running, you know, we're putting through on one of our businesses $20-30 million a year, one of them over $100 million a year. So we have— it's working. It's stress test. Like, it's awesome. But it's— we had that time where we made that transition. We lost some trust with people and some faith in people. So now we're coming back and trying to rebuild that. So that's been the harder thing is just like, you know, these things that you don't know as you're going into it, like that have been interesting. But it's also cool though, because right now we have— there's more people signing up for ClickFunnels per day right now than there was before. It's just, it's just like getting people like— how to explain this— the way we built the new ClickFunnels, ClickFunnels 2.0, it does a lot more stuff, right? It does CRMs and stores and stuff like that. And so the problem is when you join ClickFunnels in the past, you log in like you just build a funnel. Now it's like you can do all these things and like there's so much confusion. So we've been working really hard to like strip out the confusion. And like, in fact, one of the big updates coming out where I'm really excited for is like when you join ClickFunnels, it just has funnels now, just like ClickFunnels 1.0, but it has all the other apps that you can like, you can opt into them. Yeah. So it's like you have to opt in to complexity. Yeah. And so that's rolling out right now and like e-commerce stores and like there's so many cool things. So it's in a really good spot now and it's growing again and it's been fun, but But that was a stressful couple of years.

100%.

It was like we had to, like, to get where we needed to be, we had to take— first off, we had to say no to hundreds of millions of dollars, you know, which is a major stress point when you're going through the stress. 100%. Yeah.

Like, I should have taken that money and bounced.

Yeah, for sure. And it's tough because you're like, man, you're like, we're in the eye of this and, you know, getting beat up by people left and right. But it's just like, say no. We believe what we're doing. We believe in the direction. And like, and so it's just been— yeah, it's been one of those things that like, was brutal. I think, again, we thought it was like a year. It's been 3 years. This year will be year 4 and now it's finally like, it's actually awesome and it's really, really cool. And so it's been weird on my side. I've had to like almost slow down. I've been like holding the line, like trying to get it awesome. And then now to be able to go out and say, okay, now we're, now we're going back to hypergrowth mode and like focusing on it. Yeah. And so anyway, I guess everyone will know, you'll start seeing the Dave and John ads everywhere. Like that's, that's phase number 1 of this new growth expansion and Anyway, but my guess is everyone will see a lot more of what we're doing because now we're able to like take our— put our foot back.

You kind of put your head down and fix the product, made it elite, and now it's time to go and showcase it.

Yeah.

But like, let's even talk about that, right? So one, I appreciate you being like vulnerable and transparent because it's not easy. Like you're running a 9-figure company and to say like, yeah, dude, like we probably rolled this out too quick and lost some trust and some users and now You know, we're finally at a place where I'm like loving the product again. But you kind of even mentioned like, dude, you turned down hundreds of millions knowing that you were going to have to change the product, you know, to reach the next level. Yeah. Like, that's a hard thing to do. Like, what, what, like, I guess gave you the, I guess, foresight to say because like, dude, I mean, if you're running it and a company values you at this much money and you're like, bro, like, the product obviously is great. Yeah, we got loyal fans. This is awesome. But then for you to say, well, actually though, we're going to have to shift because it's, you know, it's not going to continue to work out the way it has. Like, I can see, I guess, the writing on the wall. Yeah. Like, how do you do that as a business owner?

It's tough. I think back to like when we made that decision and for me it was very much like, I don't know, I don't know if everyone feels this way. I think everyone's in business for different reasons. I think for me I very much feel like business, like all of us get put into a business because of like, because we've been called to serve somebody, right?

Like, yeah.

And I'm a big believer. Like, I was put on this earth 20 years ago. For some reason, I got super interested in direct response marketing and funnels and all these stupid things. I was in college, like, why did I care about, you know what I mean?

Yeah.

Some reason I like that desire is placed in my head. I got really good at it. I became obsessed with it. Like, I feel like I was given those gifts because there's someone I was supposed to serve. And so for me, it's like, this is the group of people I'm serving. And I love them. It's been so much fun last 6 years. But I was like, I feel like if I bounce right now, like, I don't know what's going to happen to them. And I was like, I want to make sure that they're in good hands. And people ask, would you sell ClickFunnels in the future? I'm like, yes, as long as it's like, yeah, yes, for sure. But no, but like, as long as it was a spot where it's like, this is like, like my people, like I've left you in a spot where it's like it's going to get better and not worse. I felt like if we would have left then, it would have been atrophy and it would have been 5 years and I would have been gone and that would have sucked, you know? Yeah. And like, And for me, it's like, even if I sold ClickFunnels, like, I'm not stopping what I'm doing. Like, my— I'm like, I serve entrepreneurs. I do. I'm obsessed with them. You know, I told you before, like, my company is separate where my info product brands are separate from ClickFunnels. If I sold ClickFunnels, I would keep doing everything I'm doing now. Like, nothing would shift. And so it's like, I want to make sure that, like, I have the foundation for these people so that in 10 years, not 20 years from now, like, like, even if I don't own ClickFunnels, I'm still pushing people there because it's like, that's the right foundation. So I wanted to build that. For me personally. So I think that's the hardest. I mean, you know, but yeah, there's definitely— I think there's definitely days where it's like, man, this has been brutal, you know, especially when you have, you know, people that, you know, people you've helped along the way that have gone and, and yeah, then they're just talking crap and whatever. Yeah, it's frustrating. It's like, man, I remember on stage when you came, got your 2 Comica awards, and you were crying how I changed your life. Now you're, yeah, in the, you know, the cheap sheets and Facebook, you know, taking shots at me. It's just like That's just frustrating. But at the same time, it's like I'm willing to take that because it's necessary for me to get what I'm trying to do and serve the next group of people that we're bringing in.

So do you think that— I mean, for me, I haven't experienced it at your level because I haven't built a company that big. But I think for me too, I've experienced that, just like people taking shots and stuff as you get bigger. But also too, as you just have more mistakes as an entrepreneur, Inevitably, your mistakes are seen more because it's not like— yeah, they're amplified. Yeah. And they're bigger because you just do things bigger. Yeah. And I've had to learn to deal with that too, where it's like, man, dude, like, okay, but what about the other 9 things that were great but then the one thing wasn't? You know? And it's like, it's just kind of the world we live in with social media now where it's like a very, um, just gotcha game. Yeah. But then, you know, you think about it too and it's like All right, you know, people are hating for a day and then they're on to hating the next person the next. Like, it's just, it's so just one and a half weeks, like Facebook says.

Yeah, you gotta refresh it.

Yeah, you're all right, you screwed up, you know, you go get crapped on for a week and then like, all right, cool. Yeah, whatever.

Yeah, it's, it's, it's tough, man, sometimes. I've watched some, you know, I've watched some of the, when some of the worst came out, so I've watched some of your, your content and then, which was amazing, by the way. Like, but it was just interesting. I saw you kind of having to, to read, like, yeah, make a second post and third post. And I had the same thing. I was like, I made a post and it's like I said, this does not mean this. Like, it can be this and this. It doesn't mean this or, you know, and like people take things out of context and then, yeah, and they're fast at the faster, you know, essentially is like when you're the underdog and you're the, the up and coming, they all want to celebrate your, your success. And when you're on top, like everyone wants to see the hero fall. Yeah. And it's interesting. Like, I had a thing a couple in January where I was at my son's wrestling tournament, something, you know, my— anyway, long story short, something happens in wrestling all the time. It's not that— anyway, my kid's getting choked and I jump out, I try to stop the match, gets caught on video, goes viral. And it's crazy. Like, everyone in the wrestling community, everyone in the business community, like everyone who's ever had something like, you know, because I'm a pretty clean-cut kid. I don't do like Yeah, you know, like they're like, oh, find something to talk about, talk about Russell. And Russell, like, they're making videos and they're like, like Russell beats up kids and like all that. And they're all like taking the 10 seconds of fame to take shots at me. I'm just like, are you freaking kidding me? Like, I've been nothing but like trying to serve my face off for 10 years. The second they have a shot to like, oh, the hero falls, let's hit him while he's down. Like, I was like, I would never do that to somebody. It just blows my mind that like, yeah, you know. And so, but it's just like, that's the world we live in. And you're right, like, you know, you stand there and get kicked in the nuts for a couple of weeks and then they're on the next thing. But it's brutal. But I think that's why it's so important to, like, I don't know, if business was just business for me, I would have bounced a long time ago. But it's like, if you really believe in the calling that you have and you're like, this is something that I'm willing to take these shots because I believe in the thing that I'm doing, then it makes it possible. Otherwise, yeah, I have people come into my world, they're like, I want to start a business. Like, why? Like, I want to make some money.

Like, man, You need something deeper. It's a long, long road because you're gonna get punched in the face many times. And if money's the only motivator, it's not worth it, man. Yeah, you'll just go to your other job and you'll be fine. Yeah, for sure. No, I'm with you, man. It's, um, I always tell just our students and everything else, I'm like, you got to have a deeper why for why you're doing it. You know, at the end of the day, you know, why? Because every shot you take in the face, every hour you work, every time You figure it out and then it no longer works and you're like, dude, I thought I just figured this out. And then now back to the drawing board again. Like, you will quit at some point if your why is not strong enough. And so, you know, it's just, you do get to see someone's character though when times get hard. You know, when everybody's rolling, everybody looks good. And I do think, dude, we were talking about this, like the economy plays a role in that too. You know, I think people are much more, you know, just unhappy when the economy is not good.

And so we're going into an election cycle, which is not going to be a friendly one. I think there's— everyone's agitated moving into that, you know. And like, yeah, there's gonna be so much divisiveness in the next 8 months that just sucks. Yeah.

You know, so we're just in this weird arena right now. But what do you see like happening now? Because, you know, one big shift I've been making is trying to go continuity like what you're doing. You just wrote a book called Linchpin that's exactly about that. And it inspired— like, I had a guest on, his name's Robbie, and he was the one who's like, no, dude, I'm going all continuity. He's like, read Russell's book Linchpin. I was like, okay, let me go look it up. It wasn't even on Amazon. I'm like, how do I get it?

You know, go to the funnel.

Yeah, I got to go find the funnel to buy it. And then I was like, I'll buy the order bump, whatever.

So thank you, by the way.

Yeah. So I'm like, all right, let me read Linchpin and Everything you said makes perfect sense about why ClickFunnels got to where it got. Why, like, just only selling, like, high-ticket coaching is very difficult to do. We've been talking about issues with salespeople, which we can talk about after that. But, like, my point is it's making me realize, okay, we're in a pivot stage, you know, very much like what you just said. Hey, we got to, like, redo ClickFunnels for us to be successful long term. And that's what I'm like now saying, like, we're going to have to go all in on this to like build the foundation for the next 10 years. Yeah. You know, so what are you seeing with the education space? Because many of ClickFunnels users are coaches. Yeah. You know, would that probably be the biggest demographic?

I would guess. Uh, yes. Right now e-commerce is really, really— in fact, 30% of our cancellations are people, e-commerce who don't have the e-commerce engine done yet. They're like all waiting for. So I think e-commerce will trump it this year actually. But For sure right now it's heavily on the coaching side. So a couple things I'm noticing is like, number one is there's always, you know, there's people doing webinars or live events or whatever and most of them are, it's tough because they're focusing on the high ticket thing, they're focusing on the thing, but it's tough because to do something like that they have to ramp up, they have to have ad spend, support, staff, salespeople, everything. So they do this, they ramp up the cost this big event, they make a bunch of money, but then they have the cost. So they got to pay, you know, it pays for all the ads, pays for people. But then they have these people, right? And they keep paying for these people. And now they're like, oh crap, I have this overhead now of $150,000, $200,000 a month.

Exactly.

So then they're like, okay, why do another event? I gotta pay these guys. Yep. And so they're like, oh, next thing, do the event, pay the guys. And then, you know, so it's like, it's just like ebb and flow of like up and down, up and down, you know, like feast and famine type thing. And so what continuity does, like the people that are doing it, like, and I've been preaching this really hardcore in our community for the last year, it gives you the stability. You know, I mean, like, I love the fact that regardless of what I do today, every morning I get my, my text from Stripe that says how much money made the night before. So I wake up in the morning, my continuity income comes in. It's like I made $250 grand today whether I do anything or not today. It's just like, sweet. And then you go and try and do stuff, right? Yeah. Versus like, okay, I got overhead, how do I pay staff today? Like, that's— and that I've been in that cycle so many times for the first decade of my business. That was the cycle. And it's just so much stress, like feast and famine. And when ClickFunnels came out, first time I had a continuity, we're consistently growing, consistently constantly growing. And, uh, it was a spot where it just like gave us stability, where I could like, I could rest, I could relax a little bit, I could spend more time with my family, I could take off half a day for 6 months at a time to be a wrestling coach, you know, because that was happening no matter what. Everything else was just gravy on top of it. And I think, uh, people get so blindsided by the high ticket or whatever. It's just like, oh, but I made blah today. I'm like, yeah, but what about tomorrow, you know? And so it just gives you stability to be able to actually build a team, to be able to fulfill on the things you sell and all that kind of stuff, you know. So that's one thing. The other thing has been really fascinating just in the last I just had my big inner circle meeting last week. And so these people pay anywhere from $50,000 to $250,000 to be in the room with us. And most of them are some type of coaches in different industries. But what a lot of them are doing now, I think Taylor Welch is actually one who's kind of—

I was on a Zoom with Taylor yesterday.

Oh, very cool. I actually have never met him in person. I study him and I watch him.

He's speaking at WealthCon next week.

Oh, very cool. He's fascinating. I really He's smart. He's really smart. And it's fascinating. It's like half of my group are also in his group. Like, we have a lot of similarities. So all of them come back and they're like, oh, we're doing this new thing. I think he calls it revolving pricing, revolving pricing, as they call it. I don't know what it is, but the gist of it is what he's doing is instead of like, like right now where I sell my, my mid-level coaching program is $25,000 a year, $2,500 a month, right? Yeah. People come in, the problem is they come in for 2 or 3 months and they can't handle it. They freak out. They bounce. What he does, interesting, is he has initially when you come in, there's an onboarding. So it's like 10 grand upfront and then it's 25 or whatever it is. Yeah, but the psychology is they come in, the 10 grand gives you the ability now to use— first off, that 10 grand you can put into ad spend. So like you're making money back plus the 10 grand, the upfront you make— excuse me, the upfront you make, you can put into like the customer experience. So you have a really rich onboarding where it's like you come in first 30 days or 90 days, whatever it is, really cool onboarding because the cash collector, they can spend a lot of time, energy on that and just make an amazing experience. Plus you have more money to acquire customers and then it rolls into the $1,000 a month, whatever the continuity is, and people can stay and they can leave whenever they want, but they're less likely to leave because they've already spent the big upfront investment. If they leave, they lose that. If they come back, they repay that. So people stick way longer as well.

We do a version of that with our All-Stars, $2,500 for the year, and then after that it's $1,000 a month.

Okay. And it rolls. Yeah. Super interesting. So we're Anyway, it's funny because we have Dan Kennedy's event next month. I'm trying to restructure the offer based around that concept and some of our things. That's really fascinating. But again, it comes down to continuity. It comes down to how do you build in the continuity to get people to stick? So the people that are really successful in coaching, it's like they're doing all the same things. They're doing a high ticket, they're doing events, they're doing VSL, the phone calls, doing those things. But they're not just leaving it off at just like a one-time sale. They're tying in recurring so that they have the stability. When times get crazy and the ups and downs, all that kind of stuff.

Yeah, you know, it's funny. So I was talking to Taylor yesterday. We did an IG Live to promote WealthCon, and then I was like, hey, can you hop on a Zoom real quick? So I hopped on a Zoom with him for like 40 minutes and I was like, hey, I'm thinking about doing this and this and this. He's like, bro, let me just show you this. Okay. And so he shows me his page because I was like, I can't get my low ticket to self-liquidate. It just can't do it. Yeah. He's like, all right, change this, this, this, this. You know, don't put the price right at the top, put, put it somewhere else. Um, you know, like just, just like you at your events.

Yeah. This is the price.

Just buy it. Yeah. I know. I'm like, dude, it's $27. If you're like turned off by that, I don't know what to tell you.

Right.

But, um, he's like, he basically said, hey, I, you know, I'm not concerned about the front end. I'll sell it for $3. I don't care. He's like, but you know, the back end is where you're going to make your money. And he's like, I'm, I'm more worried about back end continuity on like a higher ticket thing. Not, The $97 thing, right?

Yeah. See, I'm kind of a blend. I'd rather have both. If you can, why not have both? Yeah. You know what I mean? I like a mixed book of business. If one thing goes bad or whatever. And I got a couple of years ago, right before COVID I got tired of my mastermind, so I shut the whole thing down. I couldn't have done that if that was my only recurring, you know what I mean? Yeah.

So did you just get burnt out or what?

Yeah, I just got burned out. It was a weird dynamic. We had a lot of internal feuds, people joined the group and they became business partners. They started hating each other. And I was like the big, like the dad in charge of these things. I was like, no. So we killed it. I brought it back like 3 years later, but with strict rules of just like, dang, like, yeah, I'm not your dad. You do business deals together. It's on you. Don't bring it to me.

You know, like, yeah, I'm not shifting, not arbitrating this.

People were like, you're like, we have multiple meetings. Like, okay, well, if so-and-so come here because I'm not going to end with this whole thing, I'm like, this is—

I'm not sure what I'm doing. Yeah.

If they're in my industry. Yeah. So it was just— it got weird. So Uh, yeah. So, but it was, you know, I was able to do that because it's like, oh, well, I have this over here.

I got this other thing.

I don't need this.

I'm a big believer in just having multiple different types of, uh, when I was asking him, cause I was the 4 funnels I was telling you about earlier. I was like, hey Taylor, what do you think of these? And, um, he's like, look, dude, I'll be honest with you. What you're trying to do. Cause I was telling, I was like, I'm going to meet with Russell tomorrow. And he was like, one, Russell, Russell's been buying our stuff lately. He's like, he knows what we're doing and everything else. But he's like, but two, Russell knows for sure how to do what you're trying to do with the '97 stuff better than me. He's like, I'm basically the model you explained. He's like, I'm just trying to get them in for, you know, higher-end stuff and whatever. But he goes, he goes, you know, when Russell talked about the value ladder 10 years ago or whatever, he's like, that was built for a recession. He's like, the stuff that's been happening the last bunch of years where people will just straight up buy a '25 or a '10 and you don't need all this other stuff. Yeah, that works when times are good. He's like, but when times are bad, he's like, right now people still have money. It's just, they're less trusting.

They're holding it back a little more.

Yeah. And he's like, you got to just give them such insane value for so cheap that now they're not looking at Ryan versus somebody else. They're just looking at, okay, dude, Ryan really crushed it for this price. Like, yeah, I, I trust.

Mm-hmm. For sure. Um, it's interesting. Um, Because I almost have to— almost is harder for me to sell like the low ticket. Like I look at my book funnels, like it's like a 30-page sales letter to sell a free book, you know what I mean? To sell a free book. And then our continuity, same thing. Like, so I'll show you the continuity funnels we have. Like we call them MIFGE funnels, stands for Most Incredible Free Gift Ever. Yeah, but it's like, it's like the continuity, but it's like they're getting this huge box of stuff that's even more than like when someone joins a $25,000 program, they don't get as much cool stuff up front as they do for the continuity low ticket. Economy because it's harder to get someone in at that level. Yeah. But then you get them in. Yeah. So it's, it's, it's just, it's interesting. Yeah.

You know, I'm new in the journey, but like, it just makes sense, man. You know, I'm just thinking if I could go get 5,000, 10,000 people on a 97, like, that's a good business, man.

Sure.

And, you know, obviously there's way more stuff that comes from that, you know, working together, partnerships, deals, ascensions. All the other good stuff.

But it gets your, it gets your, your raving fans like tied into you. Like it takes them off the market. You know, someone's not going to join 10 continuity programs. It's like 1 or 2. And so if they decide to stick you, it's like, and then you're their guy, like they're not going to, you know what I mean? So it kind of like it ties people to you. So when these— Dan Kennedy taught me, because Dan Kennedy's— when we bought his company, it's a newsletter company, right? He's got his newsletter. But he's like, when you have the newsletters, like it's like the— that continuity is like— he calls it the tentpole that holds the rest of the tent together. Yeah. He's like, now they're paying for you to like to market to them. They're listening to you more because they're paying you. Like, yeah, right now, like, we're posting social stuff, hoping people pay attention, but it's free. But the people who are paying, like, those who pay, pay attention, right? They're showing up, they're listening. And so they'll consume the thing that they're paying for, but they're more likely to consume everything else. They're, they're listening more to the podcast. They're listening because they're like, man, this is my guy, I'm paying for it. Yeah, I got to make sure I'm getting my value worth. So it's like, it makes them like hyperactive people who then they're more likely to send, to buy coaching, to go to masterminds, everything else. Comes from that. So it's like, that's why I love having the low, low ticket continuity because just, it all just brings it all together.

It is like you said, the linchpin, it makes everything work.

Everything else grows because of it.

Yeah. So we've talked a lot about just products and offers and obviously running the company, but I want to talk about some applicable things to just people listening. So one question I always get, because it's like we've been talking about webinars and these different ways to get people to buy usually digital products, right? What can brick-and-mortar businesses and local businesses— how can they start using funnels better?

Yeah. Give me an example of a business.

Like, I don't know, let's just say the plumber.

The plumber. Man, it's so interesting because like, typically it's funny because people struggle to figure out how to do funnels for local businesses, but it's actually so much easier. Like, what we do is so hard because we're competing against a million people. We're trying to figure out creative and hooks and different angles by that. Like if I was a plumber, I would just buy something like emergencyplumberinboiseidaho.com or something like that where it's like, I think about the plumbers I've hired is always like at 2 in the morning when my toilet's flooding, you know what I mean? Yeah. And I don't have a plumber on speed dial. And so I would build a really simple funnel and I just want to call someone. So I have a one-page funnel with a phone number on top of it. I'd rank it for Boise, I don't know, Boise plumber. I think what I would search for— we had this, we bought our new house, um, it's about 9 years ago now, and the second day we were in there, it went from like having a— we went from a 3,500 square foot house to 11,000 square foot house. We move in, it's like amazing, our kids are going crazy. And, um, the people owned it before, they had it for like 11, 12 years, and, and they— when they left, they were single, there was just them, you know, so there's no one using the house. Yeah. So we move in, we're flushing toilets, we're doing these things, everything. It's like I just remember like the second night, it's like 11 or 12 o'clock at night and I don't know, all the kids were showering at the same time or whatever. And then just it died. The water was off, everything's gone. We couldn't flush. So, you know, I'm like, what do you do? So let's grab my phone. So I always try to put myself in the mind of myself if I was going to look for that thing. So it was me. I'm like, emergency plumber Boise. And then the first one popped up. I click on it and if there's a phone number, click on it, try to talk to them right now. I don't want to fill out a form, you know, so thinking through that. Reverse engineering how I'd want to do it and then just making sure you're there for the keywords and that's it. Like, it's pretty simple. Like, you don't need a complex funnel, you need a landing page.

You don't need VSLs or content.

Yeah, very rarely. I mean, especially something like they already know what they want, you know what I mean? Like typically with like when we're in the expert business, we're trying to like, we're trying to bring something new, like we're trying to bring something new to them, right? Here's a new idea, a new something. So we had like, we have to figure out a hook and an angle and a story and all these kind of things. If I'm looking for a gym in Boise, Idaho, I just got to find a gym. I'm not looking for— so the person who's up top is going to win. The person who's got whatever, like a simple offer is the key, right? Like, come in for 30 days for free or free, like the free challenges or something.

That's what's the cheapest gym or we're the most exclusive gym.

Yeah. So figure out what's the offer that's going to grab somebody. But it's not super complicated because most people are horrible marketers, right?

Yeah. Your competition's easy in those local businesses.

It's funny because back in the day when I was in— when I first joined the Dan Kennedy world 20 years ago, we'd go to events and they would talk about like Yellow Page strategies, right? Because like you open the Yellow Pages, the pizza section, there's 800 pizza stores. And so they would talk about like every pizza store is like name and phone or name and phone number. And then like their one person would buy a big old ad that's like, hey, get a free topping when you call it. And like that person would get 99% of all the business because it's like the only ad amongst all the other things. That's the same thing here. It's just like, how do you dominate Yellow Pages? Like, you just be a little bit better than everybody else, right? Yeah. And it's not hard to rank locally for almost anything, you know, buying paid ads, click-to-call, stuff like that. So that's a couple of things. One thing that I think if I was in a truly local business, like a local area that I would try to do is I would— in fact, I have a realtor friend who's done this in Boise. He does really well. He, he started like a Boise Luxury newsletter where you sign up for it. It's like every single house in Boise, Idaho, it's over $1 million. He sends them out each week. So you see like the cool things, right? So he launches a whole bunch of campaigns and promotions for, I don't know, 6 months in Boise. And he had a building list of like 5 or 6,000 people who want to see the most expensive, super qualified list. And it was super. And then every Friday he sent an email out and it would be like, here's the 5 coolest expensive houses from the MLS, whatever. And like, and what started happening is, number one, everyone started coming to him to list their expensive houses and then everyone's buying through him. So he's getting just from a stupid little newsletter. Yeah. And so I was like, if I was— if I were a gym, I'd do the same thing. I would say, okay, I need to find 5 or 6 partners. I own a gym. I'm going to find a yoga place, a juice place, like what are all the places that like the gym person goes to, right? I find like 10 different businesses. I go to all these businesses like, hey, I'm going to start a newsletter like Getting Fit in Boise, Idaho. And what I'm going to do is every single person comes in my doors, I'm going to put them on this newsletter. I want you guys all do the exact same thing. And what we'll do is every single week we'll promote different one of the businesses. And then what happens is you start capitalizing on foot traffic from 10 different businesses. Yeah. All building one email list. And then one day you promote the gym, next week the green juice place, next week you promote the yoga studio, and everyone's just building this list. And pretty soon you have a list of, you know, 5,000 people in Boise, Idaho, you know, are health and fitness related. Then it's like, I'm going to make my own supplement brand and launch these people. I'm going to do my own yoga retreats, like whatever it is. Yeah. Those are some of the ideas I would do if I was running a traditional local business, you know.

Okay, so that's the traditional local. Now, what would your advice be today to somebody who's trying to now do an online business? Um, you know, I guess you could say e-com, or you could say coaching. Um, you know, like, how would you start today? Because I'm gonna imagine it's probably a lot different than when I heard your first speech in 2018 compared to like, oh well, now social media is a huge part of like today? We're talking about organic content. You know, you're talking about continuity. You understand that? Like, would you start with a continuity? Would you start with high ticket?

Like, how would you do that? Yeah, I think so. The hardest thing is, you know, initially is building an audience, like to get people you're able to like talk to. So my first step would probably not be like, let's launch Instagram channel, start posting. Like it would be in there, but it wouldn't be the first focus because it can be so slow. My first thing, like, who already has eyeballs of the people that I want to to talk to you, right? So probably the easiest way to do that is I grab my phone. In fact, we were launching a business right now on personality profiling. So I literally just did this. We grabbed our phone, open up the iTunes app, and then we found the category that was closest. Like it was like the personal development industry, right? And iTunes ranks podcasts from top from 1 down to top 200, right?

Yeah.

So the 200 top podcasts in personal development, I looked at that and there was only 1 in the 200 that had anything to do with any kind of personality stuff. I was like, sweet, we have an angle, right? I always look like in every market there's an ecosystem and what most people do is they try to come into the ecosystem and copy somebody else. Like, oh, I'm going to copy someone else. What I try to do is like, look at the ecosystem and like, okay, like, like this, this business or person or brand or podcast is all about this topic and this topic and all different pieces of the ecosystem, right? Like, again, I'm not a real estate guy, but I assume in the real estate market there's probably guys who do wholesaling, guys who do flipping and guys who— all different people. So like there's kind of this, this this ecosystem in my world, in the online marketing world, same thing. There's people that focus on social and then paid and then funnels and then webinar. There's all these things. So I'm like, where do I fit in this ecosystem where I'm unique? I have a unique, different message than everybody else because you can figure that out. Then you have access to everyone else's platform very, very easily, right? Because people have podcasts looking for content. And if you contact them, you're like, hey, you have a relationship podcast, you get 1 million views a month. And my guru for our business, she does personality profiling. She can come to them like, hey, can I do— I have a really cool process we can teach your people on how to do personality profiling for the relationships. They can figure out how to, you know, connect with their spouse and whatever, right? Like, that's an interesting topic now for relationship podcasts. You can go to business podcasts like, hey, I can show you how business owners can use personality profiling to hire better. Now that's an interesting hook for, for business podcasts. And like, we can take her hook and we can hit 100 different podcasts. And if we get on 3 or 4 of those podcasts, like, Now we have a business as a guest or as a sponsor? As a guest initially. Ideally guest. Yeah. Coming in because guests, as long as you bring a unique angle, unique hook, that's what most podcasters are looking for. Just, you know, it's just like TV.

Like, by the way, we use personality profiles for hiring and everything.

Me too. Do we get on that for days?

I love that stuff.

Use Predictive Index. Okay. I like that one. Yeah, I like DiSC and Enneagram. I like all of them.

So we usually— I just interviewed Patrick Lencioni. He has a new one coming out too.

That's really cool. This is fascinating. So I don't know if you know, like, I'm obsessed with Napoleon Hill, but he wrote a personality profile back in the 1900s. I got the original copy of it and his actual test results. I'm trying to reverse engineer that into like one someone could take online.

It's kind of cool.

Well, that is cool. But yeah, that'd be the game plan. And now it's like now you're going to use podcasts and you can push to whatever your socials like, push to your own podcast or push to your—

you can chop it up into content, into ads, social proof.

For sure. But that's how you start is like you have to get an audience and building what's hard. It's just like, I want to go leverage other people's audiences. So podcasts are easy, social, it's just like, but you have to come in with your own angle, your own hook. Like, what is the thing that you do that's different than everybody else's? So it's really doing your homework and understanding the ecosystem.

Do you think that, and this is a hard thing for me to teach because I never did any of those things. Obviously, being on a podcast is great. And so I've been on lots of podcasts, but I always did from the jump, I was like, I'm going to build my own foundation. I'm going to be the I'll build my own stage, I'll build my own podcast, I'll create my own traffic. I'm not going to rely on anyone. And literally to this day, my affiliate income is like nonexistent from both me affiliating other things and then people affiliating my stuff because I just don't try.

Yeah. And how many podcasts have you been on?

I mean, I've been on most of the big business ones, but like, I should try to be on them more. I just—

it just— what percentage of your audience came from that, though?

I don't think a lot. I think it's all come just organically from, cause like up to this point in the last, uh, 4 years, I've gotten over a billion views myself organically. So I don't know what a billion views is worth, but like they, they find, yeah, they find it. So like, you know, sure. If I, like, I've been on the BiggerPockets podcast, which is the biggest real estate, um, 3 times. And I don't know how many downloads or views that got, but I do know for a fact when I was on it the first time in 2018, being unknown, for sure. Huge for me at the time. I didn't have education or anything to sell, but like huge thing for me. But then, you know, thereafter, like at that point, like most people kind of like already knew me in the real estate space, maybe some new people.

It's like a launchpad. It's how do you— because again, the whole goal is I had to acquire customers, acquire an audience I can sell to, right? So it's like starting that from scratch is hard. It's very hard. But I do think what's interesting I found is that like is that people don't switch media. Like, people have their favorite thing. Like, people listen to podcasts, listen to podcasts. Doesn't mean they watch YouTube. People watch YouTube, watch YouTube. Doesn't mean they watch podcasts. And so what we found is like, like, if the platform I want to create is a podcast, then I'm going to get on everyone else's because like, I don't know about you, the way I consume podcasts, I'm subscribed to 4 or 5, I listen all the time. That's it. And the only way I get introduced to new ones is when somebody on a podcast comes on that's fascinating to me, then I go find that person. But like, I don't see a Facebook ad would come on a podcast, right? Yeah. Same thing with YouTube. I'm not Instagram. I mean, there are people who go from Instagram to YouTube, but it's shockingly small how many crossover. But people who are on YouTube are on YouTube. So if I want to grow a YouTube platform, yes, I'm going to go post my channel, my thing, but then I'm going to get as many other people's things as possible because that's how people find you. And so that's kind of the bigger thing. And you're right, after a while you hit critical mass where it's less important.

But for sure, when you're starting, oh, 1,000%. But I do think now with Reels and Shorts, that is another way people are now finding podcasts. Yeah, just seeing all the clips.

Yeah, I do agree with that. It's also interesting because like I've noticed this, man, I've been in the business 20 years now. So like anytime a new platform comes out or a new thing they want to reward you for or they want you to use, they reward you for it, right? It's like right now Reels are the thing that, that they're pushing. And so they reward— like nowadays I see people come out and they'll post a video and get a million views and it's like, oh my gosh, that didn't happen before and it won't happen in the future. But right now it works, right? It's like Facebook groups. And Facebook groups first came out, I remember sitting there watching TV and there was an ad on a TV for a Facebook group. They're pitching Google or Facebook an ad on TV about Facebook groups. I was like, oh crap, this is the number one thing. So that's when we launched the ClickFunnels Facebook group and it blew up because that's what they're rewarding people at today. So much so they're buying ads on TV about focus on that, like every platform. And so like, I remember when what's it called? It was Google. When Google had like their Google Meetup or Google Hangouts. Yeah. When that popped, it was, it was in the spot where like if you made a Google Hangout video for any keyword, you were ranked on page 1 in Google within minutes because they wanted it. So I was doing thousands a day.

Cool.

We had a list of keywords. I was like, boom, click it up. Hey, what's up? This is Russell Brunson. Insert keyword, insert keyword, insert keyword, call to action.

Done.

And another one, another one. And like, it was crazy because like they were rewarding it. So we were like dominating everything in search engines, just busting out video after video. And then it died and they de-indexed everyone. It was gone. But there's a window, right? So I think right now there's a window where Reels, Shorts, like that's the thing. And so like people can capitalize and they can cheat the system and get ahead because of that. But just knowing that eventually the window closes, it always does, and there'll be a new one that opens. But it's playing the trends. But also understand the trend's not there. You can still do it just by finding the eyeballs, getting in front of them and bringing the people back to your platform.

Well, I think this has been my realization now going on 4 years of really going hard at content. Like the way I did it obviously is like the much harder way, right? Like what you're explaining, I think is for 99% of people. And like, I think back now and I'm like, yeah, I mean, for most people, just build it, just getting on other people's podcasts, just consistently do that. And you're going to get traffic and everything else. It is really hard to like do it yourself and build brand and stand out like in such a crowded place. And You know, and also too, I just realized that social media is, dude, it's a skill. Like it's a talent and it's not a talent that everyone has for sure. And you know, you're—

you— yeah. And you're shockingly good at it. Like I literally, with my wife, I was watching videos last night. I'm like, gosh, he's so freaking good. Like I even like to myself, like I'm just in the game a long time and I'm not as good as you at this. Like you're— anyway, so it's— yeah, it's definitely— there are different skill sets, there's different levels of it. And like even for me, like I'm not as good socially as a lot of people I know and I'm trying and I'm working, but it's like, it's way harder for me to like—

that's why you have the personality test. Yeah. You can know like what you're naturally inclined to be great at.

I think as people understand, like, again, for ClickFunnels, I have to— I have to be on all the platforms. For most people, it's like you can build a huge 7-figure-plus-a-year business just focusing on one platform. In fact, most people try to do 2 or 3 or more. Like, that's when they fail because they're trying to juggle. It's like, just pick one. Like, you can be a 7-figure-a-year podcaster or 7-figure YouTuber, or— but it's harder to be all of them, you know? Like, again, I got 400 people to work for me, so I can do stuff people can't do. Like, yeah, like, how do you get so much stuff done?

Like, well, I got 400 times the labor force.

Yeah, it's way different. So like, if you're getting started, don't do 10 just because Russell's doing it, because you're doing it. Yeah. Did you start with 10 or did you start with just one?

You know, well, I first started with just TikTok. I was like, dude, I think this TikTok thing is going to pop off. Like, I don't know why. And then eventually it was gaining traction. I was like, all right, I think I'm gonna try some YouTube too. Yeah, but that was it. I wasn't focused on anything else. Yeah, I didn't have a podcast.

I didn't have, you know, people make that mistake. They see where we're all at this point. They try to copy that. Like, I gotta be everywhere. It's like, no, Like, dope. Yeah. In fact, this is— I don't know if you know Rachel Hollis, if you follow her. She's fascinating. She wrote Girl, Wash Your Face, became the bestselling book of the year. She blew up everywhere. It was insane, right? And so she was doing speaking tours. She was in stadiums of like 60,000 people. I was watching week after week. It was crazy, right? Just like she blew up overnight and she was doing all things, podcast, everything. And then, you know, everything comes and goes and dust settles and things kind of change around. And I talked to her and it was fascinating because she's like, I was doing so much stuff. I was so stressed out doing everything. And then she's like, I realized of all the things I was doing, the thing that was like the least effort, maybe the most money was my podcast. She's like, so I killed everything else, fired her staff. Now she just has a podcast. She's making way more money, way less effort, and just one channel. And she's someone who had access to every channel like known to man. And she went back down to just one. So I think for me, I was just like, man, I keep trying to like do all things. Like just if we focus better at one thing that I can become really, really good at, that's better.

Well, I was going to ask you that because like you've been focused on ClickFunnels for 10 years now. Clearly having such a big audience and community, you get opportunities left and right, partnerships, businesses, ideas, and you're like, dude, that idea sounds good. That sounds good. Like we could integrate that into ClickFunnels or I could definitely push that to my email list or whatever, right? Yeah. How have you stayed focused?

I can't.

It's so— I'm now simplifying. I've like gotten rid of so many of my businesses.

To simplify. I go through the ebb and flow of that too. In fact, we just shut down like 6 side businesses that were just costing more than they were making because of effort. Yeah, but I'm an opportunist. I love it. I get so excited, especially if someone comes to me like, hey, here's the idea. That's a great idea. Like, you build the funnel, I'll give you 50%. I'm like, ooh, you know, like, I get excited and then— but it never, it never works out good. So for me, what I've had to do, that's why I have my inner circle 100% is because— that's not true. I'd say 80% of the reason why I have it is because it gives me the ability to like flex my creative muscle on someone else's business. But then when you get your fix, it's over. They go home and I don't have the, you know, it's like, it's like I can have the one-night stand without having the baby afterwards. You know what I mean? It's like for me, that's what I've had to do because it's hard. Like, I get that itch of just wanting to. Yeah, I see some friends who I've got, you know, like Hermosi is a great example. You know, he came into our program way back in the day and now he's out there. He's taking equity in people's businesses and the partners are like, oh, amazing. But then like, man, since someone gives you equity in a business, like they expect you to be there. They expect the world. So that's been for me is like, but I still stumble into— I get excited and I—

Well, but like also to your opportunity cost, cost is, you know, gotten so high where it's like, yeah, this could maybe make $10 million, but like—

But then what's the cost? Yeah.

If I—

So what I could do the webinar over here and, you know, I mean, like, yes, it's, it's tough. And so for me, it's like, this is, this is the— what I've looked at to like make it the thing as I look at like Who's my dream customer? Like, that's who I'm actually serving. So everything from software to books to everything's like just about this one avatar, the person I've called to serve. And so that's what I look at through the lens of just like, will this actually help them or is this my ego? Because most times it's just my ego. Like, oh, I could do this versus like, that's me for sure. Yeah. Versus like, is it actually going to help them more than me doing what I'm doing now? More than me doubling what I'm doing now. So that's kind of how I try to— because like, for example, I did launch one business this year, which is a passion project of mine, but it's also, it's like, it's a personal development brand and stuff like that. But what business is this? Secrets of Success. Okay. And then the personality one. So I got to you. Sorry. But both of those are like, are things that I believe because like most of the people who come into my world, they don't fail because the tactics aren't there, right? I've written 3 books. Like, read them. All the tactics you need, like they're there.

Strategies there. I feel like you have so many.

Well, there's 3 that are real books. I've written like a dozen, but like there's 3 that were the other lead magnets. Yeah. Yeah. I look at 3 that have been published. I'm working on my 4th, but like But like the reasons why they're failing, literally 100% is because of the psychology. Like they just, they're stuck in their head. They can figure out they have too much fear. They have like all the things. It's like that business is to help serve those people who are like, let me get you unstuck so you can actually just do the thing. Because the thing's not that hard. Building a funnel is not hard. Like launching an ad, not that hard. Like, you know, it's all said and done. It's just like you follow like these 10 steps and you have the thing done. Yeah. So why is not everyone doing it? It doesn't make any sense. It's all because of like this stuff. I know we talked about it. You don't have that problem. I don't have that problem because I was able to just to do it. But the majority of people— and I actually think it's fascinating because I think athletes are better at this than most people because to be successful in wrestling, I'm sure same thing with baseball, right? Like there's so many things you have to go through to figure out that most people never do that. Yeah, they come to business and they've never failed. And so like, if I fail, then I'm a failure. And they're so scared to try versus like, you know, how many games a year do you play? A lot. How many times I step on the mat and I lost?

Like tons.

Yeah. And you get used to it. But most people have never experienced that. Like they were in their high school band or musical or drama. There's not a winner and a loser. Like they're just— and so they come into entrepreneurship, it's like, what if I fail? And they're not used to that.

So they're like, yeah, you are.

Yeah, you're going to. And that's part of it. And so I think for that, the personal development business is to help those because like it's such a sticking point there. And so that's a big one there. And the personalities, because the hiring, like people are hiring it's like so wrong. I'm the same way. We hire based on personality profiles 100%. And so like that whole business is built around that. So it's like, how do we like what's actually help these people the most? And so that I'm also fascinated in. So that's kind of how we—

Yeah, but you're, you're ultra disciplined with especially like, are you acquiring businesses or mainly all yours are always startups?

We acquired 2 businesses. I don't think I'll acquire businesses again. That was not— I don't know. Everyone's like talking about acquisitions, how great they are. So we acquired Dan Kennedy's business, which actually was— that was great. Yeah, you've talked about that. That was fit in like everything. We acquired another company. We spent way too much money on it and they had 100+ employees. And again, as someone who's never acquired a business, so anyone who's listening to this, people who acquire businesses, they have a mergers acquisitions division, their team who like does the thing. I bought the business, I bought the business and they hand me the keys. We also have 100 new employees and I'm like, I don't know what to do with this. I'm not an operations person. And the operations person was the owner and he was gone. And I was just like, we're screwed. And it costs way— anyway, so I have not had success with that. So I don't think we'll be doing— at least not until we hire— until we get someone who's good at that kind of thing. So we haven't, and I don't think I'll do it again unless there's something really strategic that makes sense in the business. But even at that point, I don't think I'd acquire. I think I would just partner and do it in a way where it's like, I'm not taking over this business. Like, we're merging 100% or whatever. Yeah. Because as soon as you lose the The founder? The entrepreneur? Yeah, that was my— Yeah, if you want to have a podcast about business mistakes, I can tell you about all the mistakes. That was the biggest one, I think, is acquisition. We acquired a company way too much, lost the founder, and like, yeah, it was brutal. We almost didn't survive that one. So.

Wow. Yeah.

What—

speaking of founders, you mentioned you have two co-founders, and you guys all obviously been together this whole time?

No, actually, there's been some breakups. That's basically so—

well, I was going to talk about because I've had partnership breakups and to maintain a partnership for so long is like, dude, it's hard enough to stay married to stay in a business partnership.

Yeah, it's hard. It's very hard. So my core partner, Todd Dickerson, we're still— he's the one who built ClickFunnels from the ground up. He's still a partner, but it was me and him initially started it and then we brought in a third co-founder named Dylan Jones, who's genius, like one of the most talented people I ever met. He was one who built an original editor. He did all the UI. And then a couple of years into it, it just wasn't working. And luckily, this is my biggest advice in this process, is like, I'm grateful that we had a smart lawyer who, when we started the company, like, had us figure out, like, what does it look like if someone exits? Because otherwise, that's when— Yeah. You know, so for us, it sucked. It was painful for us. It was painful for him. But we have, like, this is how the game play. So we're able to do that. And then we brought in a couple other partners throughout time and then another one we just recently bought. Two of our partners we've bought out, both cost so much money that you're just like, oh, but anyway, so why did you bring them in?

Like after the fact? Like, was it for capital?

Was it for knowledge? Skill sets? Yeah. Things we needed. When Dylan came in, it's like He built the editor and the UI. He was so— again, he was so essential for working. Ryan was the next part we brought in just because we had never scaled the company. You know, I mean, ClickFunnels, look at it now. I think we're like the top, like, 30th most visited website on the planet. Well, if you look at bandwidth, so it's like to—

because it's like— is that because that is accounting all the users' websites? Yeah.

Okay, got it. Yeah. So to do the backend architecture and databases, you need a lot of tech. It's insane. So we didn't know. We didn't know. Like, we— I remember when Todd first built these, like, this will last. We have about 10,000 members and then we'll need to change things. And I know that, man. I was like selling like crazy. And sure enough, year one, we start getting 10,000 members and it's like going out, it's glitching. It's like, and like, and so we had a partner we brought in and he helped figure that out, like build out the infrastructure and the servers and the, and like, we were just, we were right.

You need a partner. Why couldn't you just, you know, hire some?

He did. He came in as an employee for a year and then he was just like, this is like, you know, he's up Christmas morning fixing, you know. Yeah, I need more. And he was after a year, he's just like, he's like, I was going to give us a year. And he's like, at this point, he's like, I'm either going to leave or because I can make more money doing less, or I want to be the partner. And, and we needed him and he was a great guy. We loved him. He was, you know, so we brought him in and he was there for 5 years or so. But then it got to a point when it just didn't make sense for other reasons. And so, yeah, we had to exit that. And so, yeah, that's kind of the thing. But the biggest thing is like having that upfront, even with him, same thing. It's like, you know, lawyers get involved, they're all trying to yell at each other back and forth. And this all said, luckily we had like, here's the here's how it plays out, and we played out according to rules, and, and now it's done.

And— but how is it like, um, because 10 years ago, you know, you weren't, um, let's just say you have your fame that you have today, right? Because like some partners, you know, and unfortunately it's not— a lot of companies start, yeah, let's do it 50/50, and then, you know, one person starts really putting in the work or whatever, and the other person's just kind of hanging around. Like, have you had to deal with that too?

I've been lucky. Todd Todd is a workhorse. I've never felt where I was— it was unequal. Yeah. So I kill myself and he kills himself. So I think I've been lucky there. There's definitely other situations where, in fact, the reason why the other ones we had exits is we started feeling that and it was just like, and us seeing trajectory, here's where we're going. It's like, it's not fair because they've kind of, they stopped and we're going here and it's like they were needed for this stage and they're going to make money. All the upside that they're not involved in, they're not doing. And So it's like we decided because part of it's like you just leave me there forever and who cares? But it's like, you know, that mental gymnastics, that was hard to deal with. I have a friend though, who they have a business that's half a billion dollars a year right now. And when they first created the company, they had 3 partners. One of them came up with a name, they incorporated, they started, they launched it, and then he left in like 3 months, never showed up since. And very— they all hate each other, won't talk to each other. They have to send him a third of their— I mean, hundreds of millions of dollars a year. And they just did an ESOP. And so they were cashing out, like making like huge chunk of cash and the guy got this huge— it was there for 3 months. That's crazy. That was it. So like, you have to be really careful. Like there's— yeah, you know, I think especially the internet world, like everyone's like, oh, let's be a business partner. They start a business and they just hope for the best. And like one of the worst things that happens, you're successful and it's like, oh crap, it's one of the worst things. I gave the guy $100 million because he came up with a domain name. Like, that's the worst, you know, like Wow. Anyway, it's, it's crazy. That is crazy. And so now it's like, interesting. We brought in people now, not so much like a partner partner, but like we bring them in, we give them royalties and rev share, but it's based on like where they came in at, right? So like we've built this foundation.

Yeah. You're not getting any like, this is ours.

Yeah. So like, here's where you're at. And if you leave, it stops. It's like, that's been so much smarter to be able to attract really good talent. But initially, you know, we're just like, yeah, we'll just chop up the company and this, you know, so much better. There are smarter people out there that I wish we would have asked ahead of time. On how to structure things like that. But be careful giving away equity because—

how do you deal with— because you have 400 employees now, like how do you deal with hiring and turnover and all those things? It's a lot of people.

Luckily, I don't deal with any of it, which is nice. So there are 3, like 3 core personalities you need to like launch a company. And most of us, including us, didn't have the third one. So you have to have somebody who's obsessed with the product, which was Todd, like obsessed with software. Someone obsessed with marketing, which is me. And that's all you need to launch a company, which is why, you know, but as it starts growing, the third person you need is someone who's obsessed with operations. We did not have that person for a long, long time. And we were able to make up with really good marketing, really good product, really good sales.

Yeah.

People forgive you. Yeah. Yeah. But it got to a spot where it was like unsustainable for us. And we tried— we had people try to learn operations, try to hire people. We tried. And it was, it was honestly until about 3 years ago, we finally got someone who came in who was a marketer first. His name's Kevin Richards. He's a marketer, which is great. But he also had done operations because we bring in these high-level, like, you know, $300,000, $500,000 a year operations, CEO people that come in and they don't understand our business at all. And just like, they don't know the internet business or bring people that know the internet business, they can't do operations. So he was this weird hybrid that we got and it was the first time it was like, oh my gosh, now we have structure and there's meetings and there's things happening and there's firing and onboarding, offboarding, HR, all that kind of stuff. So if I was ever to start a company over from scratch now, I would I would have this even though you don't need operations day one, I'd have 3 people before we started because that's the one that I think most of the creatives forget about until it's too late and so much pain associated. But it's nice now because I just say I need this role and then I tell somebody and next thing they know, they interview 100 people, they bring back 3 applications. Here's our 3 best. I look at those and I'm like, I want to talk to that person. And then it's just fast and easy. We're firing. I'm just like, oh, this is bloated division. We should change things. And they, they take care of. I don't even know what happens. It's just, you know, it's like, that's what you have to get to. But you have a really good operations person or else it— you're on a shaky foundation that is really hard to— yeah, hard to manage the growth.

What do you think, um, you got me thinking about this because you mentioned, um, Hormozy a minute ago. Like, who are like the most successful like stories to come out of ClickFunnels? Because, um, you know, I've had Alex on the show and he's spoken at some of my events before and, uh, You know, great dude, obviously super talented. And I remember—

one of the most talented people I met my whole life. Like, he's— yeah, shockingly talented.

And he was talking about how, like, I think it was you that inspired him to do gym launch because he was just doing brick and mortar. And then you're like, dude, no, like, you're in a level 1 vehicle or whatever. And, you know, whatever, right? So who are some guys that have come through that have been really, like, impressive?

Yeah.

That just needed a tweak or something.

Alex Lila, big. Brandon and Caitlin Polan launched LadyBoss. They were, you know, they built that company up to $30 million a year. Then I actually bought it because that was dumb. But anyway, but yeah, so they built that company up. A lot of people, most people are probably familiar, but they're like the gurus of different industries. So for example, Annie Grace, she is Alcoholics Anonymous, like number one competitor. Oh wow. She's figured out, I think AA is like 10% success rate. She's like at 70%, 80% success rate with her stuff.

I didn't even know like AA was like a business.

Yeah. Oh, yeah, it's all business. Yeah, I didn't know that. Yeah. And so she's built this huge company. She's multiple New York Times bestselling author now. But she came into our world, had written this book, and that's it. Now built funnels and built following. She's been on every TV platform you can dream of multiple times. And so she's changing the whole alcohol addiction market., and she's the number one outside of the known establishment. She's the number one person and rapidly gaining on them. Ryan Lee and Brad Gibb, they're in the financial market, right? They're taking financial planners and they're training financial planners how to actually be marketers. So it's like they're taking a lot of our stuff into that world, in that market. And they've got two sides of the market. They call one is their muggles, one's the wizard. So they go to normal people, like helping them with investing. It's like they're growing that scale like crazy and they've got the wizard side, which is all the entrepreneurs. And then like they're basically doing all of the investing on the back end for all the people in our world who are really successful entrepreneurs who are really good at making money, not so good at keeping money. They're like taking the money and hiding it and making it turn into more money, which is cool. We've got Chris Wark, who— ChrisBCancer.com— like he's one of the most prolific cancer researchers on the planet. And so You know, anyway, there's thousands of stories like that. Like, and the most— I don't know, things that are most fulfilling for me is like when I first got in the business world, it was I'd go to events and everyone in the events were all like people, business people teaching business people how to do business. Like, that's what it was. And so it was just— I always felt weird. And ClickFunnels is fun because the community is like people from every industry you can dream of. I get alcohol, like marriage, Stacy and Paul Martino there. They have like a— they help relationships. I think the national average of like divorce is like, it's like 40% of marriages make it, 60% divorce rate. And they have like less than 1% success or 1% divorce rate with their students. Like, well, and people come to them when they're like on the brink of divorce. Like, it's like that whole segment of the market, you know? So it's like all these— it's just been so fun because it's like every guru in almost every industry you can think of ends up in our world somehow, either from a book or from software. And so it's It's just been like, for me, it's been the most fascinating journey because I get to hang out at these meetings with the top thought leaders in every market you can dream of.

You know what I mean?

What do you think separates those people from the rest? Obsessive compulsiveness about their thing. The greatest people in every market and anything, it's like they're not typically the best business people, but they are obsessed with their art. Whatever their thing is, they just It's like me, like, I, I don't know, I think about funnels, I draw funnels, I dream about funnels, I write about, like, you know, like, I'm just obsessed. Every, every website I go to, like, I spend, I spend hours looking at people's things, buying everything, look at the, like, the process. Like, I'm obsessed with it, right? Like, same thing, all these people, it's like they're just obsessed with their art. And it's not like it's like an eternal obsession. Like, it doesn't stop, you know, like the people don't succeed are people who are obsessed for a window and then they, they learn what they learn and they kind of like stagnate. Yeah, it's the ones that are always on the bleeding edge, always trying to stay in front of it because the internet, whatever, like it wants the new, right? And so the people are always on cutting edge. They have the new and it's like it's, it's that momentum that like that, that blows people up, you know?

It feels like you have to create new so much more now than ever. And I mean, that goes back to the Facebook ad thing and everything else. Like, I just feel like everyone is so hungry for new. Yeah, I've already heard you say that before, dude. Give me something new.

And I think it's interesting. I think people are getting— I mean, I don't know if it's actual smarts, but because people now, you know, think about back in the day, someone might read one book a year. Like, that's the input they get inside their brain. Now, like my kids, like they'll watch 500 TikToks in an hour and they're getting so much, right or wrong. Yeah. So like people, like they see more, they understand more. And so because that's like, you have to be— you have to have something that's unique. Otherwise they're flopping or whatever, you know, they're moving through it. So it's like those things. And there's always like a huge new idea as much as like a way to wrap it in entertainment, you know what I mean? Where like, does that make sense? Like, so I think about the real estate market, for example. Again, there's not— I don't know, maybe there's like—

I only know of like—

no, there's not a dozen ways to do real estate. That's it, right? And there's a lot of people teaching. So like, you have to wrap it in your own entertainment, your own, like, you're like That's the key. Even my world, I wrote a book on funnels 10 years ago. The book's still true, but I got to wrap it in different wrappers all the time and have to be entertaining around it and stuff like that. It's not enough to just be good. You have to entertain.

You can't just say, read the book. Yeah, they got to be tricked.

Well, I don't say tricked, but they have to care. They're not going to read the book unless they're connected to you as the author. It used to be weird. We'd find a book, we'd read it, and like, who's this author? Now it's like, you become obsessed with the author and you're like, okay, I trust the person enough, I'm going to go read the book now. It's like fascinating. In fact, right now I'm working on my next book. And so I was thinking about this. I was like, if I just like write the book and then launch it, like it'll do all right to my existing audience. But I was like, what if I spend the next like year writing the book and I bring people in the process the whole time? So I started this like this little series on Instagram and TikTok where it's like, this is Russell Brunson's day number 1 writing a bestselling book and hopefully selling 1 million copies. And I talk for a minute what I'm doing that day. And just every single day I'm doing it. And it's fascinating because those videos are like, are scaling faster than anything else we've ever done. And I had actually someone messaged me, one of my friends who's an author, and he's like, can you imagine a year from now when this book's done? He's like, these reels will be getting 5, 10 million views each one. And then you release the book on the backside of it.

Like, you're building such anticipation.

Yeah. It's cool. So I think a lot of that too is, again, like we're entertaining people, bringing on a journey with us. It's not like, let me hide, like, here's my thing. It's like the more they're engaged in the process, you know, I think I remember when, when Marvel was doing it and like you're waiting for Infinity War to happen. Infinity War, that all happened. Like, like I was like watching all the actors, like, see if they're going to leak something. Like, yeah, I should know better. But I was like, I was sucked in the whole thing as well, you know what I mean? It's like, that's what people want. They want to be voyeuristically— how do you say that word— looking into your life and living with you. And then they're bought into the rest of it. And so it's like social media gives you a really cool ability to do that that we've never had before.

Interesting. Where do you think all this goes, man? Because for example, right, like we lived in the information age where it's like, I don't know if we're still in it or what, but like it used to be selling education was easier because information wasn't widely available. So like really you just had to have the information. Yeah. Now the information's— you can go learn anything right now. So like how do you differentiate yourself? And, you know, besides repackaging, because when I think about repackaging, to me that's just marketing. Yeah. You know, it's like, all right, I got to like get them aware of this, this offer and this, this opportunity and this product, whatever. But at the end of the day, still like to me, it can't just be more information.

Yeah, it's interesting. When I bought Dan Kennedy's company, like, it came with like they run a newsletter for 20 years, but they also had like a CD of the Month Club and people pay $97 a month for, for an additional $97 a month for a CD each month. And so I looked at all— I was like, this is crazy. This is just a podcast episode that people have. It has a CD for free now.

Yeah.

And back then they're like, that was $100 a month to hear a CD. We interview an expert. Like, it was such a big deal. It's like, yeah, yeah, there's no value in that at all right now, right? And it's true because even, yeah, on YouTube you can get— yeah, and podcasts, the information becomes such a commodity now. So I think the two things that we have that we can decommoditize information is number one, the relationship with the audience. That's something we have that nobody else can have. Right. And then number two is the information is free. The implementation is what people go to. Right. They're coming to your event. This weekend because they've got the information, but they want your help to implement it. They come to ClickFunnels, they want to implement, they come to my inner circle because they want implementation. And I think that's really key. I think it's, it's, it's cutting through the noise of like, here's all this information to like, here's what you actually need. Like, here's the, here's the steps to do it, you know what I mean? I guess we're at right now, but with my fear, then the next phase with like AI and stuff, I mean, right now funnels like we're doing some really interesting things with AI where you can literally type in like, I want a product launch funnel like Jeff Walker, I want a webinar funnel like Russell Brunson, and it'll go, it'll write the copy, it does all the implementation for you for free. It doesn't cost anything, right? Yeah. And it's not perfect yet, but it's getting better and better. And it's like, so that's the question is like when implementation now is just a commodity because it's like AI will do all that for you. Like that's, that's what's interesting. Like what's on the other side of that? And I'm not 100% sure. What do you think? I don't know. I think it's going to be weird for the info product people and businesses.

I mean, do you think it's community at that point?

I think for sure community, but I also think it's like, how do you structure your stuff where the people paying for it aren't the people learning it? Right? Like, I think about this with the podcast. Like, right now we're shifting the podcast where I'm selling ads on it. And, you know, it's fascinating. Like BMW, Airbnb, GEICO, these people are now buying ads on my podcast, which is ridiculous. It cracks me up. That's actually a thing. But it's like those people, those are like utilities and like utilities will always be here. It's like almost like, like how do you create something where you can just do your whole experience for free and the utilities are paying for it? You know what I mean? It's like even YouTube, like you get a good YouTube videos going, you're making $30,000 off a thing. It's the utilities that are there. That make the money. So I don't know. I feel like— I don't know.

I'm not 100% sure.

Yeah. But I do think there's that. Like, if you're building community, you're building the things, and you're giving people access to that community that do have the ability or the willingness to spend money, I think that's what we have to start preparing for, too. Yeah.

I think it comes down to community and experiences.— and I know you guys have done this before too, but it's like, man, we have retreats, we have obviously these events and everything else. And it's like, dude, humans just crave connection. And an online community is great, but nothing beats in-person experiences. And in my opinion, I think that's where it all goes. And that's why Funnel Hacking Live and WealthCon are— so people keep coming back. Because where else can you be around like-minded people? Are these people coming back truly learning that much more? If they're in the coaching program, probably not. They're already getting the information. So why are they still coming?

Connection. I remember the very first Kennedy seminar I went to, he asked, he's like, who here has been coming to my events for more than a year? So stand up. Everyone stands up. Then more than 5 years, more than 10 years, more than 30 years. And it was like, I mean, we got like 40 years and it was like 3 people still standing. It was funny because he said something. He's like, he's like, you guys realize I haven't had an original thought for 40 years. He's like, why do you keep coming? He's like, you keep coming because the community and because the relationship with the attractive characters. Like, that's the reason why people keep showing up. I remember that was like really impactful on me because I was like, eventually I'm going to run out of ideas, right? Like, what else am I going to say?

Why do we keep watching The Rock movies? It's the same crap, you know?

Like, you want to see The Rock?

Yeah, yeah.

It's fascinating. I feel like I think about the podcast, listen to like the people I connect with that I listen to is because like I get some kind of weird comfort from like hearing them, even if I'm not implementing. It's just like I have some connection which is like, yeah, they understand me or something. And like, I want to, you know, I mean, it's, it's, it gets that connection to the attractive character or the community.

Dude, you know, you actually just reminded me of something that you said back in 2018. So at Funnel Hacking Live, I remember you were like, You know, this is the new TV. And you were like, you know, yeah, this, you know, Instagram's this, this, and this. He's like, but you're competing not with just social media. You're competing with Netflix. You're competing with, you know, every other thing that captures attention. And it's like, that's the currency. I mean, that's literally what ads are. They're just— you're buying attention. And it's really the only non-renewable resource. It's like, yeah, we only have so much discretionary time. We all have 24 hours and we're busy for however many hours doing work and stuff and we sleep and it's like, how much time do you really have? Like, you choosing to listen to this podcast right now, you chose this over everything else you could have been doing.

Yeah, that's the value. Interesting. Yeah. So the better you get, the more likely are people are going to come to you, which again, it comes back to the obsessed people. The people are obsessed with their art.

Well, I was, I was saying it to our students on, on Tuesday, and I was like, guys, think about this. Like, well, um, uh, Netflix, they got the lowest churn in the world, like, for a company that size and everything. I was reading about it. They're like less than 5%, and, um, well, they have like over 200 million users or something. So I mean, they're bringing in a couple billion a month, like, just chilling. And I was just like, but what if Netflix stopped putting out new content, what would happen? They would just slowly just, you know, everyone would jump off and some other competitor would buy the fact there's a billion movies on there.

You know, I still go to Netflix and I spend like an hour trying to find something like, let's just go to bed.

Yeah, you know what I mean? But then you see like, oh, new release. Oh, the new top. Like, I just watch off the top 10. You know, it's like, oh, okay, they got the new top.

Cool.

Like, I'll just go to that. And like, if they stop producing new content, originals, buying movies, whatever, they would just drop off a cliff even though they built up such a great brand. Yeah, all this work. And I was like, man, it just never stops.

Like, it's funny because you asked me off camera, you asked me like, you know, why don't you just stop doing— you have enough content coming in. But it's like, I think the same thing. It's like you can lose relevancy so fast.

Yeah.

And if you don't— says that. Yeah, it's so— it's crazy because I remember like it used to be longer. Like you, like like, you could— let's say you don't email your list for 30 days and you email again, like, you'd be fine, right? But now it's like, if you don't send an email out to your list multiple times a week, they forgot who you are by Friday. And same thing on social media.

Like, if you're not in someone's feed, yeah, you're just competing against all this noise. And it goes back to the infomercial. Like, nobody wanted that time. There was no competition. And they're like, oh, this time is actually kind of valuable. More competition arises and then, oh, TikTok and Reels are kind of valuable.

Oh, okay.

Oh, podcasts are popping up. Let's, let's create podcasts. So my mind is always thinking, even as a marketer and a content creator and this guy who just like thinks about the future a lot, like, where does all this go? Like, we know that attention is the resource people are fighting for and that's where they're throwing their dollars. You know, same thing. Like, there's lots of events, man. For somebody to choose to come out here to Vegas next week and not only put up money, but just step away from their life, their kids, their business, I think about that and I'm like, that is a huge commitment. And I better perform that event and make it really good or else guess what? If they have a bad experience, it don't matter that the 5 before were good.

They're like— You're as good as your last show. Dude, it's crazy, but that's what it is. I see on the upside of that too, how cool the world we live in now. Like I remember in YouTube, you see this a lot, but the first time I had the realization was at Funnel Hacking Live, 5,000 people in a room. We taught for 5 days, right? And I started like looking at like 5,000 people. If I was to try to download this week to one person and I did it to another person, another person, you line them up. I was like, I can't remember the math. It was like 400 years would take me to do that. That we got done in a weekend. You know, you see YouTube video that pops, it gets a million views and it shows you how many hours of watch time, like Yeah, it's just like, it's crazy how much influence we are able to have though with our thing. And like, I think at least for me, that's what's inspiring to like why I love doing it. Because just like, man, if I, if I do something, I create, it goes out there. It's the equivalent of me going knocking on 1,000 doors to get the same amount of value to the world as that one thing can do. And if I do every day or consistently keep doing it, like the compounding interest that over time is insane.

Yeah, it's really—

it's—

I've talked about that before. Last year we had It was like 1.2 million watch hours on YouTube. And so, you know, you bundle that up and it's like 150 years. Like in one year, you know, people consumed 150 years of content.

Like, that's crazy. Why waste their time? What a waste. What'd I say?

That was important. No, but like, it just, it shows. But also too, the great thing about the world today in tech is that the, like, the higher the quality gets rewarded. You know, it didn't used to be that way 5 years ago when you were talking about Instagram, it was pay to play. Yeah. You know, like there was no like videos that popped off and ways to be found and then reels and all that changed it. Like, yo, if you were good, the algorithm's going to show you.

Yeah.

YouTube, if you're good, you're going to get seen. It's just a matter of time. Yeah. That like, and I talk about that all the time with organic versus paid. I'm like, what other way could you make content? Like, go get free marketing. They'll push it more if it's good and it costs you— they'll actually pay you to do it. Yeah. And you get all of it. It's— and they'll put it out there forever. Yeah.

It doesn't stop when you stop paying. It grows over time. Yeah. That's what's— yeah, that's what's cool. The ad, as soon as you turn the ad off, it stops.

You're dead.

It's like it never stops. Yeah. I think about it too. It's like, when do we hit a point of critical mass? Because that's the goal, right? You put enough stuff out there that the traffic keeps coming. You don't have to keep I thought about ClickFunnels. I'm like, right now I look at our ad spend. I was like, if we just turn off our ad spend for like 6 months and just roll it for like, for how long? Like, you know, or anything else we're doing, you know, like, like when do you get the point of critical mass? You put enough stuff out there where it's just like it keeps rolling whether you're out there or not. You know, like I think that's, you know, because I don't know about you, but like there's no way any of us can do this forever. I've been doing this game for 20 years now, which is awesome. I got probably another 10 where I'm like, how many of you have made it that long?

Yeah, there's The list is short. Tony Robbins, Grant Cardone, and I don't know who else.

Yeah, it's been a few. But I was like, if I spend the next 10 years, really just keep doubling down on this. It's fascinating to think because, again, one of my side passions is I love old books. I'm obsessed with my books from people who have died to collect their works, first editions, manuscripts. And the amount of people who are still relevant, if I named off the names, you've probably heard like 3 of the names of these 1,000+ people I'm collecting. But it's because they never got to critical mass. They brilliant. They wrote a book and they were buying newspaper ads and radio ads and they just kind of fizzled, right? The few that made it like mainstream, someone like Napoleon Hill sold 100 million copies of Think and Grow Rich. Like, like that was so rare. But it's like with us, like we put in a decade of stuff. It makes me faster. It makes me wonder like, like when we hit critical mass where it just keeps rolling and keeps, keeps happening or for—

I think you brought up a good point about books. Like books are the one piece of content that stand the test of time. 100%.

I— okay, so I wrote my very first book and it was so painful. I was like, I will never write a book again, ever. Yeah, I swear I never would. And before my book, I probably launched conservatively 50 different products. Since then, another 50 or so products. And what's crazy is to this— and to this day, the only people ever remember about like ClickFunnels or one of the books, that's it. They don't remember anything else. It's so fascinating. And like, it got— ClickFunnels got to a point where like we had so much recurring, like daily money coming in. Like we do a big product launch and you see the Stripe things. It was like, you know, here's how much we made. And then we'd go down. I'm like, we killed ourselves for like that little blip. Like it was not even worth the effort. But then like, and it was gone. Like no one remembered it a month later. It's just, it's gone. But like the books have like this weird longevity. So that's what makes me obsessed with books now. I've written 3. I got my 4th one in the queue right now and because that is just like, I think it's the only thing that outlives the life of the author. I think about this like even our live events, we do a live event, right? Amazing experience. People come in, we change their lives, and then it ends and it's over. It's over. And it's like, like the only thing that outlives the life of the author, at least historically, is the written word.

Yeah.

And I'm curious to see what happens with podcasts, you know, and with video, like these things now that are more, you know, have the ability to be around long term.

Well, I mean, look, I think to what we're saying, books historically, they stand the test of time. The Bible's been around 2,000 years and it's still here. And yeah, people can make all the content and give all the sermons and everything, but the Bible's still here and that's still the source. Now with content and podcasts and everything, it's like, I think too, movies and everything. Yeah, you'll watch classic movies and those will come back and so really highly produced things. Like, you know, I don't know that anybody's watching YouTube videos from 10 years ago that, you know, like they just want the new. Yeah, right. So I just think that anything that takes a lot of effort can last, which this podcast did not take a ton of effort to create. You know, a documentary can last, a book can last, you know, things that— and I think like even like Hormozy realized that too with his books and like building out this series of— I think it's genius because You know, I think he was saying the other day, he, I don't know, he makes a few hundred thousand a month just from the books. And it's like, that's only going to keep increasing because like, you don't even have to promote it. Like, just because it's a top seller, it will just constantly— you've seen that with Napoleon Hill and Atomic Habits and these, they're consistently in the top.

They just sell themselves. Yeah, it's been— my goal with this new book is to sell 1 million copies. I think it's like 0.04% of books sell 1 million copies. So because I've been studying like all the books that have sold a million copies in our life and before and trying to understand like what was different in the intricacies, like how they're written, how they're marketed. And it's like, what's different? What have you found? The books that sell over a million copies, almost all of them have one point they're trying to make, just one. The rest of the book is around trying to like, trying to prove that one point from a lot of different angles. They're not like, there's this and there's this and there's this like my, my first 3 books, all of them have sold well. I think combined, the 3 sold 1 million copies. It's like whatever, 250,000, 300,000 each. But like my— those books are all— they'll never be like the huge bestsellers because they're, they're principles. But it's like you have to step 1, step 2, you know, like you can't just grab my book and open up a chapter and like get something. Like you have to like read it in order to get it right. Like you look at the books, like you could grab something and read it and it's like hitting the same angle from a different direction. It's kind of fascinating. They're all like building upon each other, but they're all like, like the core books based around a topic. Usually it's not something that's like super hard to believe, but it's different than what the belief is. Like Think and Grow Rich, you might be like, cool, but like, especially when it first came out, like, can you really think and grow rich? It's so simple, but it's enough to like, you have the curiosity of it. And then it's, you know, things like that. A bunch of other things, but it's breaking things down to like very, very simple things like Atomic Habits. He's not like the most simple writer. Like, he's hard to read, but the concepts are simple. It's not like, it's not hard. It's like, how do you distill something down to like the core thing that like anybody can read?

I also think it's the audience. Anybody can read it and get value.

Yeah, yeah, for sure. Because it's got to be mass appeal enough that— so anyway, it's been fun for me to try and work on this one because it's the first one that's not a business, it's personal development, but it's trying to be like, it could be like athletes could read it or business owners or whoever, but it would be it could grow outside of my niche. You know what I mean? So I don't know. I have no idea if it's going to work or not, but I'm trying to— When is it going to be done, you think? Well, I signed the contract with Hay House 3 years ago, but I'm not even close. So they keep asking me. I'm like, I promise when it's done, it's going to be amazing.

Yeah, I would say— I don't know. I'm surprised you signed with a publisher because you're not going to be able to do all the cool things you want to do.

Hay House actually is really good for authors like us in our contracts. Brandon Bouchard actually worked with them initially and like he was like, I need to do free plus shipping offers, I need to be able to write. And so he kind of blazed the way for all of us. And so Hay House is the only traditional publisher, like big publisher who lets us do what we need to do. So I love that they give you, they give you added credibility and things like that that are great. So that's why I say like a real book, they're all published through— in my mind, those are real books versus lead magnets. And so yeah, and they've been great partners with us and they have distribution, they get you different languages like every 2 or 3 months I get one of my books and some random— like, the contractors, they get someone to do it in Portuguese or Chinese or Vietnamese, whatever. And then they have to send me a box of the books. I just get random boxes of my books in different languages. It's like the coolest thing in the world. Like, oh, this is so cool. I had no idea. I'm not going to deal with my other books, you know what I mean? Yeah.

No, you guys, whatever you want to do with them, who cares?

Just more distribution.

Yeah, it's really fun. Yeah. Well, bro, this has been great, man. I mean, for your first interview in 3 years, man, we talked on a lot and a lot of topics. Hopefully you got something. Yeah, dude, there's a lot of clips for sure. There's a lot of things. But, uh, no, dude, I appreciate you coming out here, man. And I'm just excited to, you know, obviously see the book when it's done. I'm excited to, uh, you know, just see everything that, you know, is unfolding. And I'm excited to, you know, continue to just build my own business based off a lot of, you know, the things that you've already pioneered. And so I'm thankful for that. And, uh, just want to encourage you, don't worry about the haters, you know, just freaking keep doing what you're doing, man. It's, it's impacting and helping a lot of lives, dude.

I appreciate it, man. It's been really fun watching you over the last couple of years. Like, anyway, I'm always watching everybody and some people pop for a little bit and then they don't become relevant. It's just been fun to watch you as you've grown consistently over time. Yeah. Anyway, proud of you and just fun watching all the stuff you're doing and how people you're serving.

So it's awesome. Appreciate it, bro. Guys, if you're not already, go get on ClickFunnels. We'll link to it down below. Go catch Russell's other books. We'll link to them on all the other sites, Amazon's and What's the website where they can get Lynchpin? Because I already—

that's a great book. Yeah, I think it's thelynchpinbook.com.

Thelynchpinbook.com. We'll link to it. It's a really good book. I enjoyed it. So we'll link to all that. And guys, make sure you subscribe and we'll see you on the next one.

Peace.