Effective Business To Business Marketing

Hello everybody. Welcome to this episode of the Magnetic Marketing Podcast. In this episode, we get to listen to Dan Kennedy interview one of the IT industry's most in-demand marketing consultants as we talk about how to create effective B2B marketing. And whether you're doing B2B marketing or marketing directly to consumers, the tips and techniques that Dan Kennedy and Robin Robbins are going to be sharing here will ignite a fire inside of your business if you pay attention. This episode is overflowing with value. Plus, she's going to talk about the opportunity for corporate sponsorships. Let's listen in.

I don't think there's anybody that has had a bigger impact in the field of direct response than Dan Kennedy. The legend of Dan Kennedy should be ignored at your own peril. They're not really lessons, they're kind of laws laws that you live by. Dan opened my eyes to what small business marketing looks like.

Dan teaches strategic direct response that is timeless. His ripple effect touches people who don't even know his name.

The world as we know it was changed because Dan Kennedy became obsessed with marketing.

Welcome to the Magnetic Marketing Podcast with your host, Dan Kennedy. We're tackling a topic, uh, today that we don't often spend time on and that frankly there's somewhat of a shortage of smart people in, but we have one of the smartest. So Robin Robbins is with us and we'll get to her in just a second. I have had the privilege of having her in a mastermind group for a year and gotten to know her and She is absolutely brilliant at what she does. So we will get to her in just a moment. We shall proceed with our call all about B2B marketing, effective business-to-business, how our kind of marketing works in that environment and so forth. And Robin is, as you will discover, a guru about this to the IT industry. And to tech companies. She is also expert in getting sponsors for her own company and her own events as well as for others, which is obviously a B2B function. And she straddles our direct response world and the corporate world of executives and boards and purchasing agents and so forth. So Robin, thank you for making time for the call and welcome.

Oh, thank you, Dan. Pleasure to be here. Happy to help out.

I know you're just back to work after having given birth. So yep, we congratulate you on having given birth and I congratulate you on getting back to work.

Yeah, I cannot get back to work. I was chomping at the bit in the hospital room. I was like, you know, all right, I got to get back and, you know, sell something or do something. I can't just sit around.

So I'm going to let you give people the thumbnail from whence you came and what your business looks like now, and then we'll get into some specific questions.

Okay. Quick background on myself. I'm the founder of technologymarketingtoolkit.com. I started my business in around 2001. I went independent. Before that, I was working in corporate America. So I worked for a large IBM-owned IT firm. I worked for a frozen meat company before that, which is a whole other story. But in 2001, I started on my own as a marketing consultant, and I started the technologymarketingtoolkit.com sort of focus in 2003. So my niche is selling marketing coaching sales training to IT IT firms. These are B2B firms. The niche is about— the niche in IT, the specific niche I'm in, they— we call them VARs, managed service providers, cloud integrators. They're about 40,000, so it's not a huge niche in the IT space. And these clients, obviously, they're businesses, and then they are selling to businesses. So the marketing I'm doing to acquire them is B2B marketing, and the marketing I'm giving them is selling their services to other businesses like attorneys and law firms, CPAs, medical practices, nonprofits, manufacturing, so very well-versed in B2B. For my business, I currently have 7 employees. We're based in Franklin, Tennessee, which is Nashville, Tennessee for all intents and purposes. I've got 3 part-time. This year we should do about $7 million. To $7.2 million in sales this year. And part of that is, again, marketing to the IT firms that we coach. But another big part of our revenue stream is selling sponsorships and that sort of— those types of services to very large organizations like Microsoft or Intel or Dell. And I could name others that many people wouldn't even know, but they're big multimillion corporations and we sell sponsorships and corporate marketing to them. Does that give you enough of a background? Yeah? All right.

That's great. And we'll loop back to that whole sponsors and alliances thing in just a few minutes. Okay. So let's just start with the big broad sort of question, issue. Often people have misconceptions about it. The— how different is marketing B2B, helping that IT company secure an appointment, get into and do business with a multi-office medical practice versus marketing to consumers? How big is the difference and what do you teach as the key differences?

Well, I mean, I know you know this, Dan, because I learned it from you originally and I've I've now learned it from practical experience in marketing, but saying, you know, how is B2B marketing different than B2C? It's the wrong question. It shows ignorance, really. And I mean that in a good Christian way. I'm not trying to insult anybody. But I learned that if you insult somebody, as long as you say, I mean that in a good Christian way, it totally makes it okay. So it's like coming to somebody and saying, okay, what's the difference between growing fruits and vegetables? It's just too broad of a question, and each client, each market segment has its own nuances. So, like I mentioned, the majority of my clients sell B2B, but selling IT services, which is a business service— sometimes they also sell to consumers, so there are some of my clients that sell IT services and support to end-user consumers. But if you look at each market segment, if I say just take IT services for a minute, selling those to medical offices is different than selling to a hospital, even though they're they're in the same niche, or selling it to a dentist, or selling to a law firm, or a CPA, or a nonprofit. Each market segment, each market niche has its own nuances, so you can't say just there's— you market different B2B than you do B2C, because it doesn't make any sense. I mean, you can't say, well, it's a longer sales cycle, because buying a house can be a very long sales cycle, and that's a consumer sale, right? You can't say— It's a price point because, again, I could make the same argument with a house or a car. It's the price points, you know, B2B services might be less than buying a house. So you can't say it's like, well, it's gatekeepers because every household has a gatekeeper. It's Mama who's getting the mail and sorting it over a trash can. You know, you can't say message because there's not one universal message that works with all businesses versus the— a consumer, you know. Direct mail, I'm a CEO of a company and I sort the mail too, so I'm a consumer buyer as well as a corporate buyer, and I make decisions the exact same way when I buy, let's say I'm hiring an application development company that's going to work on a million-dollar project for me. I make that same decision the same way as I hired my nanny, you know, or that I buy a car. I mean, it's the— I have a— I don't switch between modes. So first of all, it's the wrong question. And everybody listening to this has to understand the nuances are for a particular niche. So if you come to me and say, well, how is selling— how do you sell to medical practices? Even then, we have to narrow that niche down and who is it we're selling and what are we selling and then how does that niche make decisions? How do they search for information when they're going to buy? What's the buying criteria? What's the belief systems that surround that? Who are the competitors in there? Is this a commodity sale or is this an innovation sale? A commodity being something they buy all the time and they know and they understand, or is it an innovation, something they've never bought before? There's a difference in that. You know, so I think the question is what's the difference between B2B and B2C is an ignorant question to ask. It really is. It just shows that they don't understand markets. They don't understand selling and marketing. Now if you want to—

Well, what's so good about the answer besides being— confrontational and pugnacious. What's so good about the answer is that it points out the— first of all, the whole dysfunction of looking for simple answers to complex questions. And it points out that really your power and your leverage in marketing is about segmentation to get to segments of segments of segments and customization rather than standardization. And, you know, everybody's looking for a big broad approach and the truth of the matter is there is no good big broad approach. It's really driven by— just as you went through a long list of considerations to devise the right strategy and the right tactics for each particular microgroup of prospects.

Right. You got it. I mean, there are some— there may be— if I say there's some differences, but again, we could shoot holes in all this. But if you want some, typically with my business-to-business sales, typically, And this is— see, this is even true in consumers, now that I think about it. You're doing lead generation versus direct sales.

So—

and that might have to do more with the price point than anything. But for our clients, we're not putting a sales letter out there and someone signing a 3-year contract for IT support that's $1,000 a month or $2,000 a month. You know, we're not necessarily going on a webpage and after a webinar they're not buying that. Okay, usually what we're doing is we're— the marketing is to drive an appointment where a salesperson then closes the sale. So that may be one general difference. In selling to larger companies, you— and I'm talking larger companies. I'm talking like if I'm selling to IBM or if I'm selling a sponsorship to Microsoft or something like that, you might be dealing with a committee. You know, in larger organizations, typically there's more than one person involved. And there's personal agendas that you have to be considered. And there's politics and a lot of it is who you know and networking. And so that might be another little difference.

So we should talk about that for a second. Okay. And I'm curious to see how close to where I am you are about process. So let's now say you are going to begin attempting to penetrate. Some entity big enough that there may be multiple decision makers involved, there may even be a committee process involved, and you aren't sure which of the multiple decision makers is going to be in the driver's seat in this circumstance. How do you approach it?

Well, I always start at the highest point I can get access to and go down. So, when we approach an organization, a larger organization where we can identify multiple decision makers, and by the way, we find out this information a lot easier than it was even when I started selling, and I'm not old. I mean, we're talking, you know, 20 years ago. We can get on— we use LinkedIn very heavily. LinkedIn and we use just the internet in general. And what we're trying to find is the highest person And for us, we know it's going to be someone who's in a director sales role. Like, they're in charge of a result, a financial result, meaning getting— generating sales and stuff based on what we're doing anyway. So we go to the highest level person. We use LinkedIn. We make phone calls. Sometimes it's just a matter of we got to pick up the phone and call. Who's the person responsible for this, that, the other? And I mean, in these corporations, sometimes a lot of them are working from home and they're not in the main office. I mean, it's a— It's a project. I mean, we have to do a lot of research and we find out who the top guy or gal is, we think. Then we find out who their direct reports are and what we do is when we go in, we're hitting all of those people at once. So we don't just send in a single piece of mail. We're typically— and I'm saying mail because we don't typically have their email address, so we have to use telemarketing, direct mail to get in or LinkedIn if we can get them to connect with us, right? So we're using some combination thereof. And we're going in with a message to say, here's the result that we can produce. We can show you how to double, to get more and better quality partners. I mean, that's our message. And we can show you how to do it in a way you've never thought before and faster and easier than what you've done in the past. And we're also looking to tie into some kind of corporate initiatives or researching the company to see, not just make a blanket statement of, hey, we can get you more partners, but we'll notice, hey, for your new product line that you've just launched, that you have goals for, because there's a press release on it saying this. We can help you achieve this result. We hit— we mail that to the highest person we can. We copy all the direct reports that we know of or we can gather on that. And that creates a little turmoil. And it creates— because what you don't want to do is you do not want to go from the bottom up. Because the people at the bottom, all they have the power to say is no. And typically they're going to say no because you represent more work for them. So, in other words, they, you know, in corporate America, you know, there's usually higher-ups that have real honest-to-God results that they got to hit and their job's on the line and their bonus and their salaries are on the line for that. You got to get to that person because if you go too low, you're going to get blocked. And if you try and go over their head at that point, then you're going to get them pissed off and at some point you're going to have to work with that person. So, it's not a straightforward thing, but it's that you got to do a lot of research, you got to find out who you think is the most appropriate person who says yes to this. And what they will typically do is pass you down to the other people. But at that point, now you're getting introduced by their boss, and they can't hide. In other words, they can't just say no and send you away, because the boss is kind of going to come back to them and say, hey, what turned out? What happened in this thing, you know, with this person or whatever? So is that the answer you were looking— it's not a— you got it.

You got to exactly the same place I usually get to. We get there maybe a little differently, but generally when I'm working with a B2B client, I want— I don't want to be at the bottom for all the reasons you enumerated. And I think most people tend to start too low in the hierarchy of an organization. I try and go in talking to multiple possible involved parties simultaneously. And I— you use the word turmoil. I mean, I usually describe it, I'm looking for the heads butting in the elevator and somebody brings up XYZ. Doesn't matter to me if it's the CEO brings it up first or the CFO brings it up first or the director of marketing who brings it up first as long as the other two immediately say, oh yeah, I've been getting some stuff from them. What do you know? As opposed to them saying who, huh, what. And then your last point is important is when it does get driven back down It's okay when it was driven back down because they can't hide, they can't ignore it, they can't sort of refuse to pay attention. And so we are absolutely approaching this exactly the same way, right? I have a client right now, a B2B marketer to fairly large institutions, and the most recent strategy that that we are implementing is a monthly newsletter for investors in that industry, which actually will go to board members of the entities being targeted by the regular marketing with the goal of even if it comes up at a board meeting, I want everybody to be familiar. So yeah, we're exactly in the same place. And you mentioned a lot of times in the early stages at least you don't have their email address. I have a theory about the higher up the hierarchy you go, but so let's just talk about offline versus online, how you use each, the role of each. Do you integrate them? Are they separate tracks? All of that sort of thing.

Yeah, every campaign we do today is integrated offline and online. So if we have— if we're generating leads online, which is I'll say the vast majority of leads we generate are generated online. Now when I say online, what I mean by that is they're going and filling in a web form. That— the marketing that may have got them to that point Could be anything, a lot of offline, meaning somebody had a conversation at a— oh, you were referred to me, they read an article I wrote somewhere. So almost all leads we're getting are they're not picking up the phone and calling us. Some are, but not— 95%, they're going to a web form. From there, if you go to our site, you'll see that we collect everything we can from them. We want their name, company address, email, phone number. Now, when most marketers see that, they— this always happens— people look at that and they go, Robin, you're insane, you're crazy, you should be— I said no, because you know what, they're no good to me if they're just online generated. And I'll tell you, these are numbers that I've— I have tested this multiple ways, and I'm telling you that we get a far lower opt-in rate. So our opt-in rate for our homepage on our website, or some of the leads we're generating, It's only about 3%. However, we are closing 27% of those leads on a $3,000 product as our first step. If you do the math, if we only did name, email, or just email, and then tried to get their information later, and I've tested all this, I'm telling you, we don't get anywhere near as good a response. I mean, and I'm talking, when I say response, I should say we don't get as high a sales and ROI. So everything we're doing is integrated online, offline. So as soon as we get a lead online, we're mailing them our process for— like, one of our processes, we're mailing them a priority mail letter with a dollar bill attached. It's a very elaborate package with a CD. It's very expensive. It costs us about $12 to— this whole package. We send that out, but 60% of those people are then booking an appointment with a salesperson, and then that salesperson is closing somewhere around 70%, 72% of those people. So we are, you know, everything we do, we want to incorporate the offline piece, because I find you get a better quality person, you close more, and, you know, the thing is, too, I think when you get— people opt out of email. I mean, they do. Sometimes they do it accidentally. I mean, we've actually got a process in our business where members opt out of our email and then they get grumpy because they're not getting their reminders and we're like, "Look, dumb dumb, you just opted—" But they opt out. If all you have is their email, you have just killed any opportunity to communicate with them. With our list, I can mail them. I can telemarket to them. We also then connect with all our clients on Facebook and LinkedIn and try and get them to subscribe on even YouTube, so we have multiple ways of connecting with them. So if they opt out of email, I'm not— it's like the— I think Jay Abraham talked about the Parthenon approach. The one pillar falls, that's okay. We're not completely out of the game. We still have other ways to communicate with them.

Yeah, I think there's an enormous fear of— and fear-based decisions are always bad ones. You know, oh, if I force people to give me information, I may lose a good prospect. And maybe you will, but in total, when you— in B2B and in B2C in many environments, complex sales, expensive sales, affluent clientele, you gain a lot more than you could possibly be losing by sifting and sorting these people and focusing on the ones who are willing to give you full information. We're doing an interesting thing in two B2B environments right now with CEOs and CFOs where at that opt-in level point we are giving them an opportunity to redirect all the future communication to their home address rather than through their office. And a surprising number of them are are taking that option, which we like a lot, um, because we're the only ones showing up there after the fact. Um, let me just ask you about the phone. You've mentioned it a number of times. So are you doing any cold prospect dialing for dollars? Are you using out— how are you using outbound? And what are you doing about trying to create the inbound?

Okay, so we've got 3 roles of phone sales at this point. One is I'm working— I've got a telemarketing team, and what they have been doing is going through our list of unconverted leads, because we've got a huge list. And they go through that, and we try to lead gen from our old unconverted leads, because I mean, that's a great list. So we've got a telemarketing team and all they're doing is trying to get people to book an appointment or to get a free marketing consult with us, which is an appointment, right? So we've got that group. Then I've got an in-house telemarketer who her job is for all the hot leads that come in, she's immediately on the phone with them trying to follow up and book an appointment so they can talk to one of my— consultants. I mean, it's a sales guy, but, you know, they're consultants. And so, and then I've got my sales guy who's on the phone selling as well. And so we are using the— we're using telemarketing rather heavily. Now, as far as driving those leads, we're doing all kinds of things. I mean, everything from your social media lead gen to joint ventures. We do a lot of joint ventures. This kind of goes in that sponsorship It's not a sponsorship sale, but I do a lot of webinars for corporate clients where I'll do a 90-minute webinar. They let me sell at the end. We get all the registration lists. I mean, there's a lot we're doing with sponsorships. It's not just write me a check. A lot of it is them endorsing me to their list. So, JVs are a big one, social media, we're just word-of-mouth referrals. I write articles. So all these things are driving people to our website to generate leads. And then the telemarketing, we've been— we've not just called, like, look up a list of prospects and just started calling them, because we've not needed to. We're getting enough leads and we have enough in our current database to lead generate from. But I would do it in a hot second if, you know, it's not like I wouldn't do it. It's just we're just capitalizing on the opportunities we have.

Cool. Um, so since you're famous in your niche, um, and, um, you have a benefit at that that I don't, which is you're photo-friendly. But since you're a celebrity, right, um, and an expert, uh, let me ask you about that in the B2B environment. I mean, so corporate institutional versus individual personality approach, and how valuable do you think positioning yourself as a face of your company rather than being sort of a nameless, faceless institution? Do you have any angst over the choice, over the decision? What do you advise others? How important do you think it's been to you?

Well, I mean, I think it's I think you can build a company without having the CEO be a celebrity. I think, I mean, you can. There's evidence of it. I've got clients that have $30, $40 million a year IT service firms, and they're not the— the CEO's not the quote-unquote celebrity. It is doable. It's totally doable. I think in the business that I'm in and selling advice, because we're not— and that's maybe the difference. We're selling advice. You know, there's pros and cons to it. The pros, if you become the celebrity, instantly your fees go up. There can be ascension where you've got your consultants that come in underneath you. You can sell them for a good price point. You can get charged even more. So I mean, but the downside is then, you know, you're Shamu the whale and you've got to do 5 shows a day. You know, so there's pros and cons. But I think you can, if you're smart, you use the celebrity but you don't then create commitments for yourself where you absolutely have to be the one delivering it. You hire smart people, you automate, and you can certainly deliver products and services without you being the guy. I mean, we've seen evidence of it in, you know, Steve Jobs with Apple, you know. I mean, there's one, and then there's companies like if I said the founder of Intel. I mean, most people wouldn't even be able to name them, you know. But it's just— so I think you can build it either way. There's pros and cons to both. And that's really, I guess, all— I mean, to me, it's just made sense for me to be the celebrity person. But I think also it's important that you build services and products that you're selling that doesn't require you to be on stage or you doing the deliverable. Otherwise, you now have a job, and that can get miserable when you've got to be— like I said, you're Shamu the whale doing 5 shows a day. You're going to get tired, you know. You're going to get to the point where you don't do it anymore.

Um, yeah, I mean, look, people often confuse a job with a business, right? And, and I think, I think you're right. All— I mean, there is a huge difference between being your own celebrity spokesperson, um, and attracting and driving business on the face of your expert in celebrity status and having the business dependent on you and your direct touch with everybody and everything. Let's wind up before Q&A with your sort of secondary area of expertise, but as you've alluded to several times, a very important part of your business. Which is the recruiting, carefeeding, and keeping happy of sponsors, both those who outright pay you in money or bitcoins and those who pay as well as engage in alliances that are conduits to customers for you. You gave me an impressive number which you may or may not want to share before we started the call of your sponsor dollars for the year.

So talk about that some. Yeah, I think that one of the things I believe that has contributed the most to my success in this business has been working with corporate sponsors. And there's many different ways I've sort of created that. So it's not— when you think of a sponsorship, you think of, well, when you go to an event, it's the people with booths in the back and they're sponsoring an event or they get their logo on something. And we certainly sell that. And I don't mind sharing, you know, this year we've already— at this point, we're in March, we've already got commitments, checks, or at least a verbal, a strong verbal commitment for about $1.25 million in sponsorship sales. And that's your traditional sponsorship, like, you know, events that we're having. And what's really key about this, what I love about it, is that it's very little work for me, and it's because it's for things that we're already doing. So we've got our quarterly meetings that we have for our clients. It's boot camp. It's— we're actually doing a fall road show, a 5-city tour, which we use for engaging members and selling products and all that, will be profitable before I even step to the stage. You know, which is, for some of you listening, you might say, well, of course, why wouldn't you be? But in a lot of marketing, info marketing businesses, it's like you're negative until you sell something at the event. But even right now with our boot camp, I'm profitable right now. We've sold it out and I'm profitable. Any products I sell there are gravy. And so it's really—

Yeah, and you know, it's not just info marketing. Limited. People should think broader. I mean, if you go all the way back to, um, the, the beginning of Disneyland, um, and even Disney World in Florida, um, I don't know that they'd got that done without getting money from and support from a lot of sponsors. And even today, although they're loaded with money They're very much in the sponsorship business in the parks, product placement in movies, and so forth. Yeah. And I was just in Atlantic City for a couple of days, which is sort of like going to a miniaturized Vegas. And if you pay attention, I mean, now tonight's event in the nightclub has sponsors. The poker tournament has sponsors pretty much everywhere you turn. There's money or other considerations changing hands in this category. So it definitely applies to those of us who are putting on events, road shows, etc., but it really has broader application.

Right, and I mean, I even have clients that are small IT firms that are— I mean, they're clients that are doing under $1 million in sales, and they're doing a little lunch and learn on cloud computing. They're getting sponsors because I'm teaching them to do it. They're going to their local banks. They're going to their internet provider locally. I mean, they're getting sponsors from more local businesses, but they're getting sponsorships. You know, so if they can do it, some IT guy who's doing a lunch and learn with 20 people in the room on cloud computing and he can get sponsors, I mean, anybody on this call can do it. And so we've really done well with it. So, I mean, that's been just, you know, I mean, how we do that. I'm actually going to be speaking at the Info Summit in November on this topic, on how I've been able to do this. But I want, if you're listening and you're thinking about this, everything in your business can have a sponsor strategy to it. So everything we do now, everything, every project, every speaker I bring in, every initiative I put on in my business, one of the things, one of the strategy points we talk about is the sponsorship, and that's always a big part of it. So for example, we did a product launch last year, which I was going to do anyway, and we got about $120,000 in sponsor money. I could add more, but I wanted to limit the sponsors. I mentioned our road show. We'll have that paid for by sponsorship dollars and funded before I even go to step the stage. But there's other ways you can think about sponsorship. So, for example, there was a company, and I won't name names because I don't know if they want me to mention this, but there was a company who paid me, big corporation. Who paid me $50,000 to create a marketing campaign for their partners. So that's a form of a sponsorship, and that's because they recognize that I'm a well-known entity and I know how to do the marketing. So they paid me $50,000 to create a marketing campaign to help their partners sell their product. And then corporate politics kicked in and they said, hey, can you just give it to your customers, which we did. It was no big deal. But still, that's a form of sponsorship. I have had— I had another software company who had a bunch of their— they call it their channel, their distribution channel. They had a bunch of their channel partners who they were giving the software to, but these partners didn't know how to sell the services, which would then drive more software sales for them. They came in and they endorsed me to their entire list, and that was a product I ended up creating. That was like a $2.2 million— product launch and it didn't cost me anything because they didn't pay me to create it, but we had a sort of agreement where I would create a training course on how to sell managed services, which is what this software company helped facilitate. I got all the customers. I retained the ownership of the product. All they did was basically let me market to their list. They endorsed me to their list. That's another form of sponsorship. You know, I mean, it's just— we have celebrities at our events. So, for example, we just had Tony Horton at one of my quarterly meetings. And we had a corporate sponsor who paid for his appearance there. And so all we did, a photo shoot, and what they got is they got some little— the sponsor got a little time on stage before he spoke. Then we did a photo op, and this corporate sponsor had their logo behind as the backdrop., and we got a celebrity paid for, you know, by corporate sponsor dollars. So, I mean, there's— believe me, there's a lot of different ways. Even the way I started in this particular niche, the way I actually started in this niche is I got an association who agreed to pay me to do a monthly sort of customized co-branded marketing training for their members.. And I did that, and that got me just tons of leads and customers, because at the end of that engagement, which was 6 months, a bunch of them came to me and said, "Hey, can I work with you one-on-one?" And that sort of launched me into this niche. So that— I've even had— I've gotten sponsors where they've paid me to do one of my product launches to their list. I mean, it sounds crazy, but we've got paid over $100,000 for someone to for me to launch a product to their list, keeping, retaining ownership of the product, retaining all the sales that came from it, and even getting paid to do it. And it sounds crazy, but there's big corporate sponsors. And I'm not saying I'm taking advantage of these sponsors. We provide real value. In fact, I was on the phone with a sponsor the other day, and he commented. He said, "You know, Robyn, you are one of the few people who really understand that we're customers. We don't, you know, we're not treated like second-rate citizens. You understand that we're trying to get a result here. So I treat them as customers and we bring them in and we work with them and we understand their goals and their initiatives and we basically create campaigns and initiatives and projects that help them and help us and are mutually beneficial and we get paid to do that. So I'm kind of whistling through a very complex topic, Dan. I hope I'm not like, you know—

Well, I mean, one of the key points, first of all, there's a lot of money money sloshing around out there for this, right? Exactly, right. And, and the key points really are that anybody can do it. And what they should look for are— I think you want to think about this as how can I make some or all of my cost of doing X go away, right? So that I'm at break-even or profit before I sell my own goods and services. That's a very good thing to do. Secondly, how can I cut up what I do in little pieces? So somebody sponsoring the celebrity, somebody sponsoring the product launch itself, somebody sponsoring the teleseminar, somebody sponsoring the event at my restaurant or my retail store or whatever.

Sponsoring the website, sponsoring— yeah, I mean, even though you mentioned Nick Nanton, we're doing a book launch with our clients and we have sponsors that are paying money to be in the book.

Yep, there you go.

So I mean, everything, you just got to be creative.

You just think about it. Yep. Robin, thank you very much for your time. Thank you. Hope it was helpful.

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