Family, Faith, and Business: A Deep Dive of “Atlas Shrugged” with Josh Forti (4 of 5)

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What's up everybody, it's Russell Brunson. Welcome back to the Marketing Secrets Podcast. Today we're jumping into part 4 of our Atlas Shrugged series. As you know, over the last couple weeks I've been giving you guys access to parts of a 5 or 6 hour long interview I did with Josh Forti back in 2020 after I first read the book Atlas Shrugged. So we're jumping right now into part number 4. If you missed any of the prior ones, make sure you go back in the podcast and get episode 1, 2, 3, so that way you have some context of what's happening right now. And with that said, I hope you guys enjoy this part of the conversation. As a prime mover, as someone who's trying to change the world, this conversation should resonate with you. Thanks so much, we'll jump right into the episode right now. In the last decade, I went from being a startup entrepreneur to selling over a billion dollars in my own products and services online. This show's gonna show you how to start, grow, and scale a business online. My name is Russell Brunson, and welcome to the Marketing Secrets Podcast.

How did your parents, like, what did your parents do right for you? Like, what are the things? Because like, one of the things that I try to say, try to say it a lot, but I don't even say it enough. Like, my parents have played an absolutely tremendous— like, I owe so much of who I am today, like, to my parents indirectly in a lot of ways. Like, my parents didn't teach me like about like money or like, like things like that. Like, that's not what— that wasn't their gift. But like, like the principles of hard work and like family values, like, like biting your tongue, even though it doesn't seem like I bite my tongue. Oh my gosh, every day, right? Like, I'm like, you know, not like—

it could be worse, right?

Like, it could be way worse. And like, some people would love that, but like, you know, like de-escalating situations and like having those— like, I owe so much of who I am to those. And like, yeah, they messed up in a lot of ways. And like, like you said, but like, so what were some of the ways— like, what were some of the things that your parents did right? What are the things that you remember for your parents?

Yeah. I love my parents. I was very blessed with my parents for sure. My dad, I don't think my dad was super engaged when we were younger because, and just because he was, you know, he was in the phase where we're like trying to figure things out and make money and like it was different back then.

Is he an entrepreneur?

Yeah. But he also had a job but he did side business. So, he was always trying to figure things out. And I saw him doing these things. I saw like the job he didn't love and I saw like him doing stuff he did love. And I watched him work really hard. And then, when I started wrestling, I saw my dad like that became the thing that me and him connected with, which meant the world to me. And it was so important to him. And what's cool is that my dad showed up to every wrestling practice. He came to every single match with me. Basically, he built up his— his day job was State Farm Insurance. He built up his book of business to where by the time I was wrestling, he was able to take off as much as he wanted. And it ran itself. He was making money and had residual income. I remember my dad was the only one. As soon as wrestling practice got done, my dad would walk in and we'd meet him to practice afterwards. Never missed a match, never missed— he was always there. I remember just thinking like, I want to make sure I have a business or something so that I can be like my dad was for me. That was so important to me. And I said he wasn't super around when we were younger. I think he struggled as younger kids, which I understand. But that phase of my life, like he was there and he was my best friend and it was just, it was awesome. I love that. And I've been trying to ask my kids now and especially times when maybe I wasn't as good of a dad. I was too I'm trying to like now in other spots try to connect more. That was my dad for sure. And then my mom, my mom is, for me, she was just like, I think I wouldn't say I'm a people pleaser, but I'm very much like an achiever, right? Like, I think when I started wrestling and I saw my dad got closer to me and then like I would win, I saw him get excited. Like I wanted to win because I wanted to impress my dad. To this day, I think I still have that where part of the reason I'm in this business, I'm doing stuff is I love when my dad sees it and just like, you know, like there's something like I love like impressing him to this day. Like that's just like, I love that win. With my mom, it was like she loved me even when I didn't win. Like that was something that was so like foreign to me. I remember like I'd be cutting weight for wrestling. I hadn't eaten in 3 days. I'd be so tired and so miserable. And she's like, she'd come down and sneak in my room, like bringing me food. I'm like, "Mom, I can't eat. I'm not gonna make weight." She's like, "Why don't you just quit then?" 'You don't need to do this.' And she's trying to get like— and she's like the opposite of my dad. And she loved me no matter what. And I didn't care that I was trying to win or succeed or didn't— couldn't care less. Like, she just wanted me to be, you know, she loved me like just because I was me. And like, that was weird and but so cool as well. And so I think both those principles, like, it's something I've tried to, to weave in, you know. I got two different sides. I'm trying to weave that into my kids. And again, so far from perfect, but I think those are two things that meant the world to me that super grateful for them, you know, having like doing those things for me because I still remember those things now.

So there is, which by the way, that's awesome. There's a lot of people in this world that are growing up without dad, without a mom. And like, it's interesting because like, I think a lot of my social media posts, like, I kind of come across sometimes like that heartless a-hole, like, you know what I mean? But like, but Josh, Like, you know what I mean? Like, you talk about like take personal responsibility for your life. Everybody can do anything. It's like, if you're broke, it's your fault. Like, that's one of my favorite sayings. Like, if you're broke in America, it's your fault, right? Like, it was like, Josh, like you don't understand. Like you grew up and your parents are like still married. Like, not only do you have parents, like they're still together and they still like actually love each other. It's not even that they're still together. Like, it's like, you're like a percentage of the percentage of the percentage in a lot of ways. So like what, I don't even know what question I'm asking you, but like, what would you do? Like where could somebody find that? And like how can, what can we do as a society or just as entrepreneurs, as like as producers to like help those people? 'Cause I feel like that's a really big need. And like, it's one of those things where I'm like, one of my big struggles with this is I always wanna point back to the church. I had a really awakening come to Jesus moment back when I posted, this is probably a month ago or so. And I posted on Instagram actually, and I think you liked it actually. So I know you saw it. And I said defund, yeah, defund the media, defund fear, defund career politicians, fund orphanages, churches, and schools, right? And like I posted on Facebook and I posted on Instagram, and I was shocked at how many people were like, dude, fund the churches? They're just as, like, there are a bunch of pedophile people there too. They're, you know, like so many people had like such this negative, view of the church. And like, I grew up in the church. Like, that's what I knew. Like, how I knew how family worked is 'cause like I saw our own family, then I saw the church family, and I saw the community, and like how the church was involved in the community. And like the church that I went to, like after I moved out, like Grabel, Indiana, like I worked 3 doors down from it. And like they were, that's where people went to vote, was in their gym and the fair. Like, that's where people parked. Like, the church was like such this integral part, that word, part of the community, right? And so like when I saw all these people that have this negative view of the church. Like that broke my heart because I'm like, that was my solution.

Right?

Like there are like so many things. Like if you don't have a dad, like you can go to the church. Like if you don't have this, like you go to the church. It's like what? And if that's your answer, like that's cool. But like how can we as producers of society and the people that are going out there and like making the money, how can we help those that don't have what you and I had?

[Speaker:ROBERT_LEONARD] It's interesting because, you know, what Mormons believe is the family is the central Everything. That's God's plan is husband and wife starts a family. That's like, that's an eternal principle, right? And so you look at like the adversary, Satan, whatever you want to call him, like his job, like if he can destroy the family, like everything else falls apart. Like that's the war we're in right now. We think we're in a lot of different wars. The war we are in is Satan is attacking families. That's it.

Okay, which I want you to finish this. I have to say this though, guys, and this is not Russell saying this, this is me.

Me.

This is why I hate the Black Lives Matter organization, not movement, the organization, so much, because their whole principle is breaking apart the traditional family values. Anyway, I know that's not your— I'm not speaking for Russell, just—

but yeah, if you Google, uh, family, the proclamation to the world, you'll see my beliefs on family. That we have it printed out 8-foot on my wall in my house. Like, that's my belief. Family is central to everything. And so Satan is The way he destroys societies and nations and this world is to destroy the family. And so, when you see families are broken, there's single mothers and single fathers, like it's heartbreaking. It's the saddest thing in the world. And I don't know the right way to solve it. I do know that it's vitally important. Like I remember the first time I met Tony Robbins and started learning from him, like one of the principles he talked about in relationships is masculine-feminine energy. Like the masculine and feminine is key to like a relationship. I could go off like 4 hours just on masculine and feminine. Like, it's like the most fascinating topic in the world. But you look at like, if you ever see how Tony fixes relationships, like you look at traditionally, if you go to traditional counseling, they're like, there's a problem, right? Like, what's the symptom of the problem? They try to solve the symptom of the problem. And like, counseling takes years because it's a symptom of the problem. Tony's like, all the issues are all, they're all symptoms of problems. The real problem is like when there's a masculine and a feminine. And it doesn't matter. Again, this is true with gay, straight, doesn't matter, but feminine, masculine energy, right? You take a masculine and feminine and that polar opposite, that's magnets that magnetize together, right? That's what attracts, creates attraction, passion, and everything. So what happens, you have a masculine and feminine, they're attracted together, right? That's how you start. That's how any relationship starts, right? And then you look at people get married. And it was interesting because what Tony talked about, so you look at typically in a relationship, there's like what they call the 7-year itch. And why is that? And he talks about, 'Cause the feminine, the way the feminine causes change is, I wish I could, someday I wanna write a book on this. I just don't know it perfectly enough to explain it.

You probably just need to become a writer. Book and see, yeah.

My word. I got a lot of books to write. But so this is how it works in traditional marriage, right? It's masculine and feminine. What happens is one of the ways that feminine causes change is they criticize, right? Like if I see this with my wife, with friends, with girls, like if they want their friend to change their hair, they don't say like, hey, you should get a haircut. They'll criticize. To try to cause change, right? So what happens is that a feminine—

Yo, I'm— wow, that's so true.

So this is, this is— yeah, yeah, that's just one example of feminine energy. There's a million, right, right, right. But like, so feminine and masculine come together. So like, this is an example. It's like they'll start criticizing the man, but a masculine man doesn't care. Like, it bounces off them. Like, okay, okay, right? What happens after 7 years of, of that happening? Eventually, um, instead of, instead of balancing off you, which is the masculine response, You start taking it personally, like, oh. As soon as you take it personal, guess what happens? You are shifting physically from your masculine to a feminine. You start shifting, and what happens? You shift from masculine to feminine, and boom, the attraction breaks, and it starts falling apart, and then all the other problems start happening. So the problem isn't solving the fact that you leave the toilet seat up, or that you don't communicate well. The problem is that the masculine-feminine attraction is broken, and if you fix masculine-feminine, you can make men become men and women become women, attraction comes back, and all the other symptoms disappear. It's fascinating. And so that's from a marriage, family, like, relationship standpoint.

Okay.

Can I—

Yes. I want to protect—

I'm telling this because I want to talk about it from the family with kids in a minute. But yes.

Okay. But I want you to now give me another example that Tony Robbins has said, because what you made it sound like there is that the way the woman does something is the thing that's causing the bond. I know that's not what you meant.

Oh, it could be.

Yeah.

I just want to make—

I want to do that clarification.

It could be the same thing with the men, who are the men are responding over and over where women now become defensive and they become more masculine and it's the other way. Yeah, sorry, that's not the only example. I was just, the one time.

I just wanna make sure we clarify that because I know things have been taken like, someone's gonna be angry.

I apologize, I'm stupid. Like, I get it. But conceptually, does that make sense? Like, it's the break of the masculine and feminine that causes the split, which causes the disharmony. And if you bring the masculine and feminine together, I think that's what causes attraction. And causes passion and causes all these things. I look at my life, like when we were struggling in our marriage, like it's because I'm showing up feminine. When I show masculine, everything's great. Or my wife comes in masculine and I'm masculine, we butt heads. Like it's fascinating. And so, anyway, I don't want to get deep in this because there's so much stuff. But the reason I want to share this is because you look at this thing, like now you got a family, right? And the mother and father split, right? And then there's kids who go with either the mother or the father. And now what they have is they've got either very masculine person they're learning from or feminine, but they don't see both. And so, it shifts them and then it shifts their relationship. Like so many problems. And so, I think the way we help the most or can help the most is like Hormozy does this. Alex Hormozy does this. Like he donates his money to— do you know the name of the charity? He got our first Too Hard Award. It's after-school kids. So, like these kids where they go to like men who— there's these kids trying to play basketball or lift weights or whatever who don't have masculine energy in their life, they come and they donate their time and they help the kids. That's awesome. To bring masculinity. So, they have— all of us, we need male and female perspectives. Like, we have to have— like, it's designed to have those things together. When you lose one of them, it's a tragedy. So, like, I think the way we can start helping is like, how do we bring programs where they can see masculine energy and see the way to make it a positive, not a negative thing? And like, because a lot of times all they know is, you know, masculine energy left and Oftentimes there's a lot of anger between the people when they hear talking trash about the spouse and talking trash about these traits, which are like traits that are essential for them to develop. And I don't know. I don't know if that's the right answer or not, but I feel like that's how we could help those things is just like helping understand like the kids who don't have a father or a mother, like they need that energy in their life to understand it, to be able to, I don't know. So, okay.

So this is seemingly unrelated to this, but I think that I can tie it back in because it's a question that I think fits in here. So do you— I'm gonna start with a super basic question, which I think the answer is obvious, but like, we'll go down this road. Do you feel misunderstood as an entrepreneur?

Um, I did early on. I did less, less so now. Why is that? Um, when I got started, Entrepreneurship has become more of a cool thing. That's true. In the last decade, since Shark Tank and stuff. Back when I first started, it wasn't. Everyone was confused like, why would you do that? It is cooler. Also, it's like I think the more you talk, the more you either alienate people or you attract people. And I think a lot of people who I have alienated have been alienated. I think I've attracted people I've attracted. So like my bubble of people around me are people who understand this lingo, who relate to it. So it's less hard now than it was initially.

Do you ever feel— so like, I believe that one of my superpowers, like your superpower, like your art, your format is like marketing and funnels, funnels specifically. Like that's like what you do. And like, I feel like you could just sit there for hours and hours and days and forever for the rest of all of time, right? Like my superpower, the thing that I like to do is this, like communication. I love constructing words in a way that people can understand. Right. Um, did you— I'm sure not, but like the Kanye West interview that Joe Rogan just did like 3 days ago.

I've heard about it.

Okay. So like, this has been a long-awaited episode for like— nobody thought it was ever gonna happen, right? Because it was like teased and it wasn't, didn't happen, finally happens. And so like, I see this, I had no idea it was coming, it like drops, and I'm a huge fan of Joe Rogan, right? And I'm like, oh my gosh, it's amazing, right? And I sit down and I look online and all these people are like, terrible interview, not worth your time, couldn't get past the first 20 minutes, like anything like that. I'm like, what? So I go and the first 20 minutes were kind of like, and whatever. I get done with this 3-hour interview, just like top 3 interviews of all time, right? And what's interesting is like, do you know Kanye about like how Kanye communicates like at all? Like, do you know? Okay. So like Kanye, there's so many references I want to use that you won't get. Like, so like, like Kanye like sees the world like fundamentally differently and like how Joe describes in there and The way that I describe it is like, you wouldn't know this, like I said, 'cause psychedelic, it's like a drug or whatever, but like imagine being on like a psychedelic drug, like in a small format, like at all times. Like that's how my mind works. Like it's like sees everything, it's like expanded. And so even Kanye said, he's like, the reason I have such a hard time communicating sometimes is because I have to, like I see things in three-dimensional and then I have to put them in a two-dimensional conversation, right? Now I'm not trying to compare myself the way I think to the way Kanye thinks, but like that, this concept of like him people think he's beating around the bush, right? When really he's just trying to explain something. Like, one of the things I love doing is taking a concept like that and figuring out how to describe it in a way the average person can understand. Because like, I, I live in a different world. Like, just like you live in a different world than the average person does. Like, I live in a different world, and that is by choice. Like, I do not see the world the way that most people do. I intentionally do not want to see the world the way that other people do. Like, everything I do, like, I will intentionally engineer to where like my life is different than the average person because I want to see the world differently. But I want to be able to communicate that in a way that they can understand. And so my question is like, do you think that there's a lot of great ideas stuck inside of producers' heads that if more people understood them and thought like that, we could change the world for the better? But because they're stuck in their head and that person doesn't know how to communicate it well or is not focused on that, that the— that that effect never happens? Yes.

Yeah. So I would say, and that's why I think for me, the— this study, this art of like funnels and copywriting and storytelling is so fascinating 'cause that's what it is, right? Like I always pitch like when we have an idea, in my head it's like this big granite block, right? It's like this is the idea. And to give it to somebody like, this is the idea. You're like, I don't get it, right? And then you start thinking about, who is it? Start chiseling away at the stone, right? You start chiseling, chiseling, eventually you have this like amazing statue, right? Of like this thing that people can see and they can understand and they gravitate towards. I feel like it's the same thing with communication, right? Or with any kind of idea you're trying to sell, like the funnel is one thing. Like right now, like, hey, you should buy my coaching programs. Like, why? Like, ah, it's too big. Like I need to take them through a path to simplify that. So it was like a step-by-step process, which is like chiseling away. But then inside each step of the process, there's like the words and the stories and things you communicate to simplify it, just to get more and more fine-tuned. Like that's why for me, like when we create a funnel and we launch it, it's like taking this big granite block and chiseling down to like, now it's something that somebody can come in on this side of it they go through a process, by the time they're done at the end, they're gonna give us money, they're gonna get a product, and they're gonna change, like something's gonna change for them. I think that that's what marketing is, right? It's that process of like trying to simplify the message. And I think 100%, that's why most ideas don't get out, right? How many times have, like, I don't know, how many times have you had, and this kind of comes back to talk about, who knows, an hour or two ago too, but like 4 or 5 people get the same idea, but then one person executes on it. It's like the person who understands the communication the best is the one typically who gets it out, right? Like how much of your life and my life has been focused on communication? And I don't necessarily like that part as much. Like it's not my favorite part, but it's such an essential tool. I remember when I was learning, when I got in this game and I was trying to sell my very first product, ZipRender, and I was like, I put it up, I had a picture of it, buy now button, and like tried to send traffic and nobody bought. And someone's like, well, you need a headline. So I'm like, okay, so I put a headline like, we need, like tell us what this does. And so I like found some sites that kind of modeled what they did. And then people started buying and it was just like learning that process of how do you communicate. I remember thinking like, I never want to learn how to write, like for me it was copy. That's what we all called back then. Like, I don't want to write copy. Like I don't want to do that. That sounds horrible. And I wanted to hire someone, but like the people I tried to hire was expensive. It was like $10,000 to $20,000 for a sales letter. I couldn't afford it. So I'm like, I have to learn this art of how to communicate. And like so grateful because like that's how everything we built has been is off like the communication of an idea. And doing it in a way that gets people to move.

How do you decide what you're going to communicate? Like, you have a lot of ideas in your head and you have a lot of different thoughts on everything. And like, you choose to share funnels and marketing primarily. And then you have some religion in there, which I would say probably like number 2, maybe-ish, of like what you communicate. That's like it. Like, how do you decide?

The battles I want to choose?

Yeah.

Yeah. That's a good question. I think I mean, part of it's like what's interesting. Like why did I want to do this interview? Like I read the book, it was fascinating. Like, and I don't know the answers and I thought this would be a fun way to talk it out loud. Like this fascinating funnels are fascinating to me because like I can apply it to so many things. You know, when I talk a lot about wrestling, but not in the community you bump into, but wrestling, I talk about that. Like, so I think it's just the ideas that fascinate me that I feel like have the most validity and can can do the most. Again, as an introverted person, I don't typically go out and have conversations with people because I'm like, ah, you know, as much as I can. But if I find something like that does cause and effect, right? That's why I practice telling my story so many times and I'll do a podcast and things because I know like now when I'm on stage in front of 9,000 people, the stories can get people to move because I practice it. So, I think it's putting a lot of things out in the water and then seeing what things people relate to and then I go deeper on the ones that are like, okay, this had an impact. There's a lot of stuff. I remember, yeah, I remember in the first version of DotCom Secrets, there were 7 or 8 chapters more that never got published. I was going to publish them all.

Do you have copies of those?

It was like, yeah, all my best stuff at the time that I knew, and I was going to publish it. And it was all in the book. And I remember I heard an interview with Tim Ferriss and Ryan Holiday. It was Ryan Holiday at the time, and they're both talking. Yeah. Anyway, talking about their books, both of them said that when they write a typical book, You know, Tim Ferriss's books are like this fat. My first draft was like twice as big. He's like, he's like, to make a book go from good to great, it's not like adding more, it's cutting. He's like, I cut two-thirds of my book to give you this one. And then I think it was Ryan said the same thing. He's like, it's not like— he's like saying that my book start at the final— the first draft is twice as big as the final one. Then next section, just cut, cut, cut, cut. I remember going back to DotCom Secrets that night and I was like, okay, based on that, if I like— what would I cut and how would that do? And I cut 7 chapters out. And after it was done, I was like so scared. I'm like, this is like, I love these things, but I was like, those things aren't that important to like get people what they need to actually be successful. Well, some of those things ended up being in DotCom Secrets and Expert Secrets and other places. But yeah, I wonder that first version.

I was going to say, I wonder if she just published the first thing or if she like had a 2,700-page book. Yeah. And cut something out of it. That's crazy. Okay. Back to the question in the car. And I want to tie this back to the book. How has growing a multi-hundred million dollar, like making hundreds of millions of dollars, having a roughly billion dollar company, being the CEO of 400 employees, like how has that changed your perspective of the world?

I think so many things I could respond. I think there was a season in my life where I thought that like if I was going to create something, if I was going to do something that like, the way I was gonna do it by me. Does that make sense?

Yeah.

And in fact, if you look at my history, the first decade of business, the businesses were about me. They were me. They were— I was the sole owner, the sole person, you know, person. And on this journey, when we started, it was so different. It was like, how do we— like, what's the team look like? How do we— like, who Todd was my first time I had a partner. It was like, that was so scary for me. And then the greatest thing I possibly could have done, right? And then brought in other partners and then employees and stuff. And like, I don't know, it's just, it's been fascinating just realizing that like to build this, it wasn't about me. It was about, I don't know, just that whole thing. I think anything great, a lot of times there's a person that gets credit for it. Elon Musk gets credit because he's whatever, Bill Gates or whoever the people are, they get the credit for it. But it's like, you start really seeing how many people are involved to make something amazing. You know what I mean? I think that's the biggest thing for me was I started growing it and it's frustrating, not frustrating for me, 'cause I enjoy it. I like, you know, people always say, Russell, but eventually ClickFunnels. I was like, I literally don't know how to code anything. There's not one dot of code in that world that I, like maybe once I leaned over Todd's shoulder, put a button in, then he had to delete it. But I think it's cool when you see that, like how many, And before Funnel Hacking Live, every time we start, we bring our whole team together. And I see, you know, I'm the one who's on stage, but I am fully aware that like, that it is not me. Like, this is us. Like, if it wasn't for this team and these people, like, for all of you guys, for all your contribution, this wasn't possible. I want to always ground that because I think sometimes that the leader or whoever gets a big head where they think it's them. And I don't know. And I see that with a lot of people who are on big stages where they still drink their own Kool-Aid. They still think it's them. I think that's my shift in the world, just understand like the great things, like the things that we remember, the things that are legacies that go on and on and on. There may be a head or a person that like that the branding tied to, but it's like there's this group of people that created something amazing. That's—

But how did you, like how do you stay grounded? Like one of the things that I, like I am a huge fan of Russell Brunson, right? Like I, like because Like for me, like you're the person I look up to as not just, hey, you taught me how to make a lot of money, but like, hey, I wanna be like, I wanna have a character that you have. I don't wanna have, like I look at Grant Cardone and I don't, you don't have to talk smack about Grant Cardone, but I can, right? And like Grant Cardone is really, really full of himself, right? And like, don't get me wrong, like I've learned a lot from Grant Cardone, especially about money. Like he's changed my perspective about a lot of things. I'm like eternally grateful for that. But if like, if I grew up to be Grant Cardone, like where that was the focus? I mean, like I watched him, I was there when, you know, it was the stadium down in Miami or whatever, right? When it was, you know, it was all about him and it was, I think he even got up on stage and was like, oh yeah, Russell, everybody says Russell's the greatest salesman, but I'm the one that packed the house, right? And I'm like, dude, like, you know what I'm saying? Like, why? Why is that necessary? And so like, how do you stay grounded, right? Because like, I think there's, It's so fascinating to me to like watch different type people. And I know like Tai Lopez, for example, like for a while there, it was like all about Tai. And like now he's kind of like gone more behind the scenes. But I'm like, each person I watch, whether it's Tai or Gary or Grant, like they all have a different way about them. And like you have your way about them. But like the one that I see is like the most grounded, humble, like is like, there's nobody that's looking at you. You get up on stage and you're like, oh yeah, everyone's all brought that. You know what I mean?

Like, you know, it's awkwardly like, right.

And then you meet, you walk up and Grant's like, But you, it's like, yeah, it's that awkward of like, hey, I'm just over here. How are you grounded in that? How do you not let it get to your head?

Because it would be so easy for you to get wrapped up in your own head. Someone told me, it's 'cause my wife, they said, if you'd married anybody else, your head would be so big.

I think— Well, so I met your wife for the first time today. I mean, we had crossed paths, but I said, when you were getting a haircut, I was like, so what's it like being married to Russell? She goes, he's just the sixth child of mine. I'm like, oh boy, she's a big kid.

That's awesome.

So good, so good, so good.

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I think, um, I'd say it's two things and we kind of talked about this earlier, but I'll tie back to like the first one is that I am fully aware that these ideas are not mine, right? Like, I didn't invent the funnel. I didn't invent any of the stuff in here. All I know is that I was on a path in a journey. I was given the thing and the next thing, and I was like freaking out. I was putting them together. And like, that's part of it. Like, this stuff's not mine. It's stuff that was given to me and tested. And so like, I'm so grateful for that. Like, it's never me like, oh, look what I invented. Like, that's so annoying because it's not, right? Like, These are, again, come back to these ideas, these thoughts, these desires, things that were given to us. And so, I think that's the first part. The second part of it is, and I see this a lot in people in my world who they have some success and then they're like, this is my person. I made them a bajillion, you know, and like I hate that too because it's just like you helped them in a piece but like they did the work. I'm very careful like to always, like when I'm talking about any of our success stories, like I didn't make that person. Like, we had this super cool opportunity to be a piece of their journey, right? We helped them, give them some ideas and a tool, but they're the ones that kill. I got what it takes to build what they're building. Like, I didn't do that. They did that. And like, I'm grateful that they did. And I'm even more grateful that I got to be a little piece of that. Like, I got to be part of that journey. I get to see that and just like have the impact of like, oh my gosh, because I killed myself and wrote those books and because Todd killed himself and wrote software and I was able to communicate it, like, they're able to do this thing and it's not all me. I fully watched it on me. Like, I know what every entrepreneur has to go through to be successful. And it's not a mentor who gives you everything. It's just like a lot of people who are— and I've had mentors who gave me a piece that I'm so grateful for, but then they try to take all the credit. Like, oh, this is when— and I hate that too. And so I think those two sides, number one is like, again, I don't think these ideas are something I came up with. They were given to me and I was going to steward them. And so because I was able to aggregate them, like, there's the thing. And then number 2 is just my belief that I didn't help anyone. Like, even like when you said like you and Katie, like I felt awkward, like, oh, like I, I didn't do anything right. I like, luckily some of the stuff that resonated with you and it was like a little piece of your journey. I'm so grateful for that. Like the fact to see you do stuff now is like so much fun for me to watch you and like just knowing like, man, because he bumped into me, like maybe something happened and now he's doing this stuff and this work. And it's so cool seeing how you're impacting people. And I think Those are reasons why I don't think it's me. I'm grateful that I get to be a piece of it, of the journey. But I'm not the creator of it.

Hmm. All right. I want to loop back to the book. Can we talk?

Can we read it? You guys want us to read it to you?

What was your, like, what was the thing that fascinated you about it? Like, when you boxed me, dude, you were like, dude, I read it and I'm geeking out about it. I just want to geek out about it. Like what, like what about it? How'd you so fast? Like, what did you want to geek out about it? Because I have a question that I want to ask, like, later on about it. But like, what was the thing that just made you geek?

There are a lot of things. I think the biggest thing that I was really excited— we talked about earlier—

was just—

I know, that's good. The biggest thing in your own direction.

Yeah.

The biggest thing earlier was just this concept. Again, for those who are tuning in late in here, there's a whole— it talks about greed, right? And that concept of greed versus charity. Like, again, the book very much is like greed is good. It's the thing that causes production and you should care about yourself. And then good things will happen, like you'll create jobs and everything else, take care of yourself as long as you're caring most about yourself, which I thought was kind of cool. But then also I had the other side of with like my beliefs in Christ and Christianity and all these things that were just like, oh, like how does that reconcile with faith, hope, charity, and love and like, you know, serving everybody else? And like, and so that was like, that's probably the thing that got me the most. I think that I keep, I think about that a lot, especially in politics, because again, I'm not deep into politics. I'm not going to talk about who I'm voting for or not voting for. It doesn't matter.. But I see that on both sides. I feel like on the Republican side, you see a lot of this stuff like this. And then on the Democrat side, you see a lot of like the charity stuff. And again, in my notes, I wrote this actually initially because I wanted to talk about this. Like I'm a big believer that like there's not like a right and wrong. There's good in both sides, right?

There's not a right or wrong side.

Yeah. Like there's like things are messed up on both sides. Like I think that there's, it's just how the world works. There's this eternal struggle between God and Satan and Christ. This is always happening. So there's two sides and there's God-like principles and things on the right that are amazing. And then there's Satan that's twisting things and jacking them up. Same thing on both sides. I see everyone fighting tooth and nail. I'm like, I bet you if we all sat down, the majority of all issues we'd all agree on. But then it's like these fringe things that cause like so much hatred and fighting and just drives me crazy. And I think that this book is a perfect example of like what I believe so much in some of these principles. But there's also like the opposite principles. I also believe it and they're both right. And it's like that. And that's what, you know, I mean, if you missed the beginning part of the interview, we talked more about that. But it's like the greed and the growth and contribution, that transition is like the key that just fascinates me.

Yeah. So like what part of the— well, like what part What parts of the book contradicted the most with your faith? Like what part of the book did you have like the most, the hardest time with because of your faith?

Yeah. The producers in the book, the minds, the people I connect with because like that's who I self-identify as a producer, someone who's obsessed with like production and creating and like, right? Like I relate. So Hank Reardon and these, Dagny, like all these people like I relate. Like Like, they're cut from my same cloth. And it's as they're growing this stuff that they didn't give back, that they didn't— ah, like, that's the best thing. Like, I felt like they weren't rounded out characters. And I think that's the biggest thing for me. It's just like, I don't want to be— like, first, I want to be Hank Greer. And like, he's freaking the man.

He's crazy.

Like, yes, that's what I want to be. But then I wanted to see him have like that change of heart where he's Christ-like and he does it of his own free will, not because the government came with the gun and told him he's got to pay taxes. I wanted to see his character develop and realize that, oh my gosh, like, I should be serving people because I love them, not because the government's forcing me.

Like, that's the piece I wish, because that's— It like never took that turn. Like, the book, it was like you almost like expected it, and then it didn't happen.

It got worse and worse and worse, and then they wait till everything's like— people are dying, everything collapses, and then like the lights in New York go out, and they're like, okay, now we come back and build.

Now we can go back and build. But like, even when they come back and build, it was built by our new law of, right, of like basically. So actually one of the things that's fascinating about that was, was it in, gosh, it was towards the end, when was it Gault? I think it was Gault, who was like basically, yeah, I think he was doing a speech when he was like, all we wanted was, like we gave, the minds decided like we gave all this stuff to you guys basically. Kind of being like God there. But like, we get like, here we did, we created all this stuff, we created these jobs, we created these resources, like we gave it to you. And all we wanted from you guys was for you to let us be in our own head, like let us, our minds be free and not be controlled by anything else. And you took all that. And not only did you take it all, then you said, no, you're bad. We're going to take that away too. And so we're all going on strike because of that. And like, you relate to that so much. And then it's like, yes, but then they explain how they live. And it's like, you expect them to have that change of heart, but it's rather— but no, it's because we are amazing and because we are the great minds and we must live by this code. It has nothing to do with like actually giving back or actually contributing to society. It's like they didn't care about contributing to society.

That just happened to happen. Yeah. Which is cool. Which is, which is why, again, government should let producers produce because the byproduct is really good. Right. Right. For everybody. It's like that part is so much I relate to. But then in part, it's probably because Ayn Rand didn't believe in God. Like, so that wasn't You know what I mean? It's like that wasn't part of her values. And so, it's tough because she weaved that. I just wish at the end of the book, it would have been like, "And then Hank Reardon realized that he could help all these people himself. And so, he built orphanages and changed all these kids' lives." And you're like, "Yes." He's like, "Ah." Like that would have been amazing. You know, he found out who you are and he went and donated money and saved all these children. But he did it on his own free will because he had that change of heart because that's like, I don't know. I don't want to die at the end of my days and like, I produced some great jobs, but like, I didn't care about people. Like, ah, like, I feel like that missed the mark.

Hank Reardon, you say, is the person you related to most in the book?

Um, yeah, I think so. Um, I wanted to be Francisco though. He's pretty sweet.

Who do you think? Who do you think I related to most? Oh, um, who was it? It's a relatively main one. Was it?

You were close.

Oh, was it Francisco? Yeah, for sure. For sure.

Yeah, he was.

He was cool right from the beginning. He, he like fascinated me. And like, I knew like right when like that she introduced the, or the plot twist of where like he like ran off and became the playboy, or like picture himself as a playboy, or like whatever. Like I knew right then and there, like I was like, I don't know what the plot— like I don't know what the connection is, but I like know this is gonna come back around. It's like not gonna be how it seems, right? Like because like someone like the mind doesn't shift, and like then he stays in the scene or whatever, but like He fascinated me because I, like, he strikes me as someone, Hank didn't care about the crowds. He did not at all, right? Like, he hated going to the wedding. He hated going, like, it was by force that his wife would like drag him out there that one time. It was always like, I just want to work in my office, whatever. Like, I'm actually not like that, right? I am actually much more the, like, I do like the crowds, but I don't like the crowds because like I need praise. Like, don't get me wrong, like, I like being on stage and, you know, like, doing this type of stuff. But for me, like, I like the crowds because I love people. And I don't— it's funny because I like, I actually don't get along with a lot of people. Like, I'm like, whenever I go to the airport, I'm like, I will pay whatever it takes. Like, put me on a plane first, the least amount of people I have to deal with, whatever. Because like, I don't want to have to interact with people I want to interact with. But like, I love like studying and understanding people's minds, right? And for me, one of the reasons I am so fascinated by Donald Trump is because of how he can control the crowds. Like, you look at his rallies, dude, like, you can't ignore them. Like, they're just huge. Um, uh, my, uh, fiancée's, um, parents, like, they went— or her mom and, um, her mom and Courtney went yesterday— I think it was last night— to Omaha. Like, 29,000 people showed up in the bitter cold of Omaha, like, a last-minute notice, like, to, you know— and like, that type of control— or not even control, but like, that type of influence to be able to go through, like, What is it that makes people go and do that? And so Francisco in the book, he was the partier guy and he went and he was with the crowds and he was very good with words and articulated. But he sold me at that wedding. And I'm telling you, but like, because to me there's more than two ways, but super simplified down, there's two ways to influence people. There's one which is the indirect, which is like build a software company, it's build a product, it's build an iPhone, right? It's like you're not directly influencing them with your words or whatever, but it's like, influencing their behavior by creating a product, by creating a service that's gonna go out and change the world. And then the other way is to actually go out there and change them with your words, right? And so that's why, like Jesus for example, Jesus didn't build a product, right? He did it through his words, kind of sort of. But like, to me that's so fascinating. And I'm like, if I can figure out how to do that, that's how I can affect real change in the world. And it's funny because like, you have had such a massive influence on my life, but probably like a year and a half maybe-ish into like me knowing like ClickFunnels, I was like, man, Russell's doing it all wrong. And I had this thing of like, if Russell would communicate more about stuff besides funnels, like he would have a bigger impact. And like I had this like limited belief of like, this is the only way you can influence and impact people is by like going out there and actually like speaking to them. But like that's my superpower and my gift. So like in the book, Francisco was the one I think that best represents like my style of like trying to go out and do things. I find it interesting about Hank Reardon with you because—

'Cause I'm somebody, I'd rather be in here building funnels, doing some stuff. Like there's scenes of Hank in the book where he's sitting there looking out over the factories at night and he sees, he watches like the steel being poured, it's glowing and he's like enjoying that. Like for me, it's similar where like I do the stage thing and things like that. I get less value out of like, even interactions are hard, but like I love, I spend a lot of time on social media at night just looking at the people that I know are in our world and watching what they're doing. 'Cause that's like me watching the steal. Like, I'm not, like my mission's not to go teach people how to do what you do, right? I'm giving you like a blowhorn so you can go do it. And so like, that's more fascinating to me to sit back and, it's funny 'cause my wife, at events it drives her crazy 'cause the event'll happen, it'll get done, and then I scurry off 'cause I don't wanna like talk to anybody and I sit in the room and I just like watch like what people did, the takeaways and like who they're talking to. Like I spend a lot of time just like watching. That's for me like looking over the steal and be like, I gave them a trumpet or I gave them a blowhorn and now their message is going out there and I can just kinda watch it.

Hmm.

And so for me, it's like, I don't want to teach personal development and this and that, that, but I want to like empower or give these tools or whatever tools that are so that you can and, and, you know, whoever all the other influencers are to be able to do those things. That makes sense. Like, yeah, amplifier. I'm an amplifier of other people's messages and my message just happens. Like, here's the amplification thing you need to amplify your message. Yeah.

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