Fulfillment and Achievement: A Deep Dive of "Atlas Shrugged" with Josh Forti (3 of 5)

So good, so good, so good.

Spring styles are at Nordstrom Rack stores now, and they're up to 60% off. Stock up and save on Rag Bone, Madewell, Vince, AllSaints, and more of your favorites.

How did I not know Rack has Adidas? Why do we rack? For the hottest deals.

Just so many good brands. Join the Nordy Club to unlock exclusive discounts, shop new arrivals first, and more. Plus, buy online and pick up at your favorite Rack store for free. Great brands, great prices. That's why you rack.

This episode is brought to you by Indeed. Stop waiting around for the perfect candidate. Instead, use Indeed Sponsored Jobs to find the right people with the right skills fast. It's a simple way to make sure your listing is the first candidate to see. According to Indeed data, Sponsored Jobs have 4 times more applicants than non-sponsored jobs. So go build your dream team today with Indeed. Get a $75 sponsored job credit at indeed.com/podcast. Terms and conditions apply.

What's up everybody, this is Russell. Welcome back to the Marketing Secrets Podcast. We are coming back right now with part 3 of our Atlas Shrugged series. Again, this is from an interview with me and Josh Forti back in 2020, after the very first time I read Atlas Shrugged. This was a fascinating, like, 5 or 6 hour long interview. Hopefully you had a chance to listen to hour number 1, which we posted 2 weeks ago, and then hour number 2 last week, and now we are on hour number 3 this week. I hope you guys are enjoying this interview and it's getting you guys excited about all the things related to you as a prime mover, as a producer, and someone who's trying to change the world. So that said, I'm gonna jump into part 3 of the episode on Atlas Shrugged. In the last decade, I went from being a startup entrepreneur to selling over $1 billion of my own products and services online. This show's gonna show you how to start, grow, and scale a business online. My name is Russell Brunson, and welcome to the Marketing Secrets Podcast.

Okay, I wanna circle back to one quick thing. And then we can move on. So the question I was trying to ask was like, when you were like, hey, there's the technician or there's the plumber, there's this or that, or then there's the person that comes in and makes it rain, right? Like there's only a few people in an organization that like make it rain, right? Like you in ClickFunnels, like you make it rain. Like you're the one that like brings it in. And I'm sure there's other people like to a certain extent, but like you are that person. And there's probably what, you probably have what, 100, 200 people on the support team that don't actually make company any money, but they do play a critical role in the sense of like the company couldn't function without them. Right. And so like to those people there, how does somebody who like, two-part question. One, can you live your best life in a position like that? Like, can you be most alive and fulfilled and like, like live a great life doing something average like that? And number two, like, does that person need to go learn how to make it rain? Like, does everybody need to be an entrepreneur? Does everybody need to be like, you are so fast and you got this whole community of funnel hackers and like, we're gonna go out and change the world. And like, we don't get, We think differently. We do it differently. We do all this stuff. Like, would it be good if the whole world thought that way? Or like, do we need people that don't think that way?

There was a time in life where I thought everyone should think that way. I don't think so now. I think some people like— I have family members who love what they do and they're obsessed with the art. Like, the art is what they do. Like, some people like— I've had good masseuses and bad masseuses. Some masseuses, like, that is their art. You can tell. You're just like, oh my gosh. Like, they're the best at their craft. And I think that's okay. I think if it brings fulfillment, like that's more important. But if people aren't fulfilled, that's the second question is like, well, if you're not fulfilled, then why? Like, you know, and I think one of the most powerful things Myron Golden taught us at Funnel Hacking Live and he taught it at 2 Comical Life a couple of times. He has a thing called the 4 levels of value. And it's so fascinating because— That's such a good— Yeah. It's so good. The first level of value, for those who haven't heard this before, is— and it talks about— and here, I'm going to not do it justice. Like Myron's the man. One of the greatest speakers of all time. Go YouTube.

I actually don't even know if it's on YouTube.

It's on my— anyway, yes. But so bottom level is people work with their hands, right? And this is the hardest work. Like someone building a building, the person's like actually building the building or typing, you're doing support or like whatever the thing is, like they're working with their hands. Like that's the lowest level of value, right? Like the most you make when you're working hands is maybe $50,000, $60,000, $70,000 a year. Like you're tapped out. You can't get higher than that. Now, excuse me, if that's your calling and you're good at it and you love it, like go all in. Like become the best in the world at that thing and that's totally cool. But like you cap out on salary. You can't make more money at a certain point because that's what the value of of that tier value. The next tier value, then if you move up one tier, is management, right? Someone who can manage all of the workers, right? And there's people who, like one of the big mistakes we made inside of ClickFunnels, we took the people inside of our team who were the best workers and we upgraded them out into management. And they were horrible managers. Amazing workers moved into management, and they managed people that weren't managers. Like this is a different mindset. And so it's like they can go learn that, but that's not where they were gifted, right? And a lot of times it was irreparable. We couldn't move them back down because in their mind, like, well, I'm a manager now. It's like, no. I think, you know, one of the things we learned is like someone can work and be a worker and make more money than the manager, right? Because just because sometimes their skillset, like look at programmers and developers, like getting an amazing programmer to code something is a lot of times worth more than the manager who's managing that person. But in most businesses, most organizations, manager's next tier, right? Because you make more money as a manager because you're managing a lot of, excuse me, a lot of workers. As opposed to one. Then you go up the next tier of value and it's like the communicators, right? People learn how to talk and to sell. Like that's the next thing. You make more selling than you do managing. And you typically make more managing than you do actually doing the thing. And not everyone's going to be great salespeople. Like I think it's a teachable skill. I think you may have seen my early videos. Like if anyone thinks this is a gift that I was born with, it is not. It is something that has been developed.

Guys, you should go look at Russell's old videos. They are so embarrassing.

They are the worst ever. Yeah. When I was your age, I would not have been able to do this. Like it's crazy. And so, that tier is communicators and the top tier are the visionaries. Like imagining, like you're using your brain to make money. So, you're using your brain, your mouth, your management skills, or your hands. Like those are the 4 tiers of value. And so, I think wherever you fit in there, it's like that's cool. Like we need people all the tiers. But like I had a podcast about this the other day. I'm like if you're going to be, whatever you're going to be at, like don't just be a person doing it. Become the best in the world. Like we were in Oksoka Tony's event and we're in a hotel. And it was kind of weird because there's a spa, so I'm all excited to get massages, but it's also COVID right now. So like the masseuses have masks on, they have plastic gloves. It was like, it was weird. And I got my very first massage. We said they paid for some massage, like 2 massages. So I was like, it'll be fun. First massage was so bad. I was like, I never want to get a massage again ever. Like it was just, it was so bad. And I'm sitting there on the table, it was only an hour-long massage. By the time it was done, I was like, I want to get out of here. Like this is just, weird and horrible. I did not enjoy it. And I'm a massage person.

Yeah, I love massage.

Yeah. And I was like, the point, like, I'd never want a massage again, but they'd already booked us for the next day for the second one, and I was annoyed. I went to the second one and same thing, she's got plastic gloves on that we have to do, and the mask, and it's kind of like, I don't want to be here. And then she puts your hands on me and it's just like, it was art. Like, it was different. And I was like, both of them are doing the same job, right? But somebody's like, I want to be the best in the world, versus like, I'm just doing the thing. You see that in every, every area of life. You look at the chiropractors, there's chiropractors that are good and there's ones that are great. Doctors, like dentists, business, like, like, I'm, I'm more of like wherever you're at, like, like, don't just be mediocre, like become the best in the world there. That's more important to me than, you know, if you're gonna be a plumber, be the plumber who you walk in. Like, we've had our house, so many plumbers come in. We had some that come and they fix the leak and then something else breaks and they go, another guy should come in and they check everything to make sure it's perfect. It's like I would rather, like, I want that person, the artist, the person, like, this is their art, not just like, oh, best job I could find.

Like, yeah. Anyway, all right, so now I'm about to ask you a question, and I understand this is totally like just like your opinion on it. There's, you know, nothing, but maybe, maybe you have something to base it on. So like, the person that is at those lower levels of value, right, the average worker that's out there that's doing their thing, especially in today's super soft victim mentality America that wants to vote for free stuff. Makes me so mad. Anyway, so like the average person like that's out there looks up at people that make a lot of money and like kind of the general consensus, I think, or the way that America slash the world is going is like rich people are bad, right? Like, like, you're so greedy, man. Like you got all this money and like you're not giving any to me. And like you get to go sit in your massive house and your cars and you can do whatever you want. And so, like, even if they are doing what they are called to do, like, they'll look up to a millionaire or billionaire, like someone that has like all this stuff, and they'll look at it as bad, like that shouldn't happen. Like, how do you create a society? And this is why, like, I know this is big picture, like, type stuff. But like, how do you create a society that allows people to like be okay with being the best version of themselves, like where they're at without like looking at you and being like, you're bad. Like, you know what I mean?

Yeah. Well, it's not gonna happen in our lifetime. It's not gonna happen, my belief, till Christ comes again.

And we—

when he does, it'll be a perfect, you know, things will be great. But until then, it's not gonna happen because humans are humans, right?

Um, you mean, you mean Donald Trump's not gonna just fix everything?

Oh, if he does, that'd be amazing. I'm not holding my breath. Um, but I would say more so just for anyone who feels that way, like, I would look at that more And I did a podcast about this. Like if you're not someone who celebrates other people's successes, everybody, I don't care if you hate the person, if you're a big fan or you're not a big fan, like if you don't celebrate their success, then you are going to struggle to ever be successful because you're going to be so scared of other people not celebrating your success. Like I remember I am not a huge Gary Vee fan. You know this. For reasons I'll talk about in my next book.

But— So, when I tweet this out on Twitter, Gary, when you're following me, shout out. But by the way, the Patriots won the Super Bowl and the Jets. Just throw that out there. All right.

Continue.

I just guarantee you'd never come on.

I do. I do like Gary. I just— we had a weird thing, but whatever. He doesn't remember it, I'm sure. But anyway, he got the shoe deal with whatever.

Yeah. Yeah. Adidas.

And he's going to market. And like, for half a second, I was like, oh, that sucks. And then I was like, you freaking— he's in our industry and he got a shoe deal. And I ran to my computer. The case was I bought the shoes, I got them here, and I was like, I did a podcast, like, celebrating the fact that someone in our community got a shoe deal and all these things. And a bunch of people that I know are like, I thought like you're not a big Gary fan. I'm like, I'm not, but like, that's a huge success. Like we should celebrate success. Because if you don't, then what's gonna automatically happen in your head, if you're not celebrating people's successes, you have the subconscious fear that someone's not gonna do yours. And so you're gonna stifle yourself from being successful. So I try, when anybody around me is having success, whether I like them or I don't like them, like I always am like, oh my gosh, I'm gonna try to celebrate it. And then by doing that, like it changes your brain to the spot where you're okay having success because you're assuming everyone's going to celebrate like you and they're not going to. But it's different. Subconsciously, you are not celebrating other people's successes. It'll stifle you from ever having your own. And so I think that's a big part of it. Like if that's where you're at right now, like it's something you got to change. And we start making that little shift and start celebrating people's successes above you. It's freeing, it's amazing, because then it's all of a sudden you're unlocking yourself. Like, I can succeed because they did, and people are going to celebrate me. And like, it just, it shifts those like psychological things that you do, and it changed everything. It's weird.

Do you think, um, you're not political, like hardly at all? Like, do you even pay attention?

Um, no, no, not too much. Like, I was like, I was like, hey, so those who read the book Hank Reardon He like— and this is part of his demise is he never— he doesn't pay attention to it all. So as I read the book, I'm like, Hank Reardon doesn't pay attention. I don't pay attention. Like, like, and real quick, we do shout out for these shirts again. Yes. By the way, how many guys would like one of these shirts?

Let's make them comment for this first. Okay, guys, how many of you want a shirt? Yes or no? Comment yes or no down below.

So this is the Reardon Steel one. This is the Who is John Galt one.

Pretty dope. I'm not going to lie, though. Like, that one's pretty dope. But this one wins for one reason.

The quote is cool. We could put that quote on this one too and make it silver. Oh, okay. This is my selfish pitch. Okay.

Yeah. Can Russell— hey guys, can I do a pitch real quick?

You guys okay if I sell something?

Can he sell something to you? Keep in mind, I make no money off this. I don't even know what he's doing.

I don't know if I make any money. No, we have a little fun site we created just because it'd be fun called tshirtsnackdown.com where we have two shirts and then people vote with their wallets which shirt they want better. So if you guys want these shirts, you can actually buy whichever one is your favorite. Or both, you like them both, you just gotta go to tshirts-smackdown.com and they're up there right now. And guess who is the models on T-Shirt Smackdown? I assume, are we the models? Anyway, go to tshirts-smackdown.com. Yeah, you can get one or two models.

Oh my gosh, look at that. Your team's amazing, dude. They put it together like that fast. Okay, let's geek out on the book here for a second. The audible door, the password that was audible, when I read that I was like, yes! That's like a brilliant mind at work, right? It's like you have to And the part that I thought was interesting was it wasn't just the words. He's like, and it's programmed to where it will not open unless like the person that is saying it like is actually like saying it with conviction or like something to that effect. Like they actually have to like mean it. You can't just be like, okay, cool. I mean, like now you guys want to read the book so bad.

Okay.

All right. Let's, we'll come back to the t-shirt smackdown. Comment down below. Let us know. And let us know, guys, let us know down in the comments. And if you're listening on audio, you can like go leave a rating and review and like leave us in the comments. But like if you're listening, YouTube, Facebook, or whatever, like comment down below where the best part or your favorite part of the conversation was so far. I think that'd be super cool. Okay, let's get out of the book for a second here. I actually have a lot of questions about the book, but I wanna know like, what was like your favorite scene?

Oh, so many good scenes. My favorite scene in the book, so it's kind of like the crescendo of the whole book. 'Cause the whole book is asking who's John Galt? Who's John Galt?

Okay, hold on, sorry. Dave is sitting here in the background. Have you read the book, Dave? Okay, so I'm just making sure. I'm making sure that you're like, you're not just sitting over here like—

I got back, I was freaking out. Dave's like, I have to read it too. I was like, I need to talk to somebody. Dave, go read this. I'll see you in 6 months. Okay, favorite book. So the whole book's linked to who's John Galt, who's John Galt. We kind of introduced him a little bit when Dagny meets him and then she leaves and goes back to the real world. And all of a sudden there's this part where the looters and the government are trying to like do this broadcast and all of a sudden the broadcast is interrupted and they're trying to figure out how to fix it. But all the people who would fix it have been taken, like they're like—

because all the great minds of society are gone.

And all of a sudden, like over the loudspeaker comes John Galt. And he starts the speech, and the speech I think is 80 pages in the book.

It's so—

it's like 4 hours. It's like a map. It's 4 hours on the audiobook. 4 hours. This is why you don't watch the movie, by the way, because it's less than 30 seconds in the movie.

Like, how do you take out 4 hours? Like, oh, it's such a good—

anyway, he gets on his microphone broadcasting the entire world. Nobody can cut him off, and he gives this speech about just big everything, the whole building. I'm just like freaking out. Like, the setup was so crazy. Also, it happened. I was like Anyway, that was my— And he ends with this.

And he goes, "And I'll say it like one last time, I pledge my life and my love of it that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine." Anyway, that was my favorite part. The 80-page, 4-hour-long version of it? Okay.

Oh yeah, so good.

Okay, I like that. My favorite part of the book, I read this, I was like— So I like play my life out and act like I'm in a movie, right? Sometimes I'm like, do this. So do you remember at the wedding, Oh, Francisco speech, dude. Oh yes, okay, that might have been better. I get done with that chapter and I'm like, I promised Leah I would be done after this chapter. And like, it ends and I'm like, I remember.

Yeah, I do think so. The John Galt had a better build-up and then like, like, I didn't know it was coming. Like, there's wedding, everything, and then all of a sudden starts happening.

I was like, out of freaking nowhere.

Yeah, so Franconia, uh, Francisco, uh, Yeah, he gives a speech that was like, yeah, I wasn't expecting it, so I think it was less buildup, but it was amazing. Yeah, the John Galt buildup was like, this is like, I was waiting to see that movie because I was like, amazing. Then it's like, come on, like, come on. Anyway, yeah, those are the two best parts.

Yeah, yeah, at that wedding, like, I'm reading this and I'm like, that was when, like, it was like that, that moment I was like, okay, she, she finally like made it all like, and it was relatively early on in the book. I was like, oh, if the book follows anything like this, this is gonna be such a good book, right? 'Cause like he gets done with that and like you're just, it's like something you'd want to like watch out in real life. And you know, if somebody thought this up and like wrote it down, you're just like, mm-hmm, so good. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was so good. That was hands down my favorite part.

I wanna read the book again. I wish it wasn't 1,200 pages 'cause it's like I wanna go back through it and experience it, but it's so big.

Okay, have you read the CliffsNotes version of the book? No.

Okay, so.

That's what I gotta do. Yeah, so there is, there's I think, There's the Cliff Notes, like the one that you buy. I think it's like a 4-hour audiobook. I haven't listened to that one, but if you just go to like cliffnotes.com and like read the book, you can basically get a summary of the whole book in like 30 to 45 minutes.

I read it. It's still worth reading though, you guys.

Oh, oh, 100%. 100%. And actually, that's the reason I bring it up because like I know it's 1,200 pages, but like you don't— like if you just read the Cliff Notes, you're like, oh, okay, like cool storyline, but like you miss the effect, like the oomph of it all.

[Speaker] One of the things that I thought was fascinating, and this is 'cause like I'm working on my next book, which is like, it's not a how-to book, so I'm learning how to write differently. So I've been—

[Speaker] Ooh, you wanna tell us all about it?

[Speaker] I'll tell you, actually. I'm really proud of it, I'm excited for it. But one thing was interesting, like if you look at how Ayn Rand did the dialogue in the book, she did all the dialogue where it's just one person speaking. So it's fascinating, every time, if you notice that, like when her partner was in the cafeteria with some guy we didn't know, You only hear his words. You never hear the other side. Oh, that's so true. Most of her dialogues, which is you heard the one person talking and you could get the gist of the conversation by reading one side. They'd never had the other side. And I'd never seen someone write that way before. And there's a lot of cool things like that where it's just like people and like, again, I've written 3 books now, but like I wrote books with Google Docs, with editors and people like imaginary book in the '50s with a typewriter. I think how much pre-thought has to go into something like this. That's wild. It is insane to think that. Yeah. So like I have so much respect for people who wrote then and especially I'm trying to learn how to write as a story as opposed to how-to and it's like the art of it is just, it's fascinating. And anyway, as a book, it's just like it's worth reading just like to see how she wrote. It's fascinating as well.

What was your like biggest— actually, I want to go down that rabbit hole a little bit further. So like writing and is your new, like is your next book fiction or not?

No, it's just the next book is about bootstrap.com. So next book's Bootstrap and it's the ClickFunnels story. It's not like the how-to, it's telling the story as the story, which is gonna be cool. That's gonna be so good. Like, the first thing we're doing is all the core people who have been part of the ClickFunnels story, we're flying them out and interviewing them for, I've been mapping out the entire timeline of events as close as I can remember and interviewing them on all the pieces from their point of view. Trying to get that from like 50 different people and then take all that stuff, sync the timelines up and write the book as a story. Anyway, so it's a different writing style I've never done before. That's interesting. Oh yeah, Dave wants to tell you the cool part. So I'm also like been re-geeking out on like Hero with a Thousand Faces and the Hero's Two Journeys and like all that stuff. I wanna make sure, well someday I wanna try to sell to Hollywood or something. So who knows? I don't have the end of the story yet, but like, but so I'm just—

Which is by the way, super fascinating because like the concept of like going for a target and then like going towards it, like you don't know the end and now you're just like, oh, that's so cool.

It's what's cool about it.

It's like Russell's so much fun to watch.

So like I'm writing, I think, so I've been geeking out on the Hero's Two Journeys. So I'm like, I'm trying to sync the timeline of the ClickFunnels startup story to the timeline of the Hero with a Thousand Faces, like to all the core things, to see if I can get it to fit inside that framework, which I think we'll be able to do. That way, yeah, it's gonna be amazing. And then what I'm trying to do in my new office is I'm gonna build the room where it's like a timeline, so the entire room wraps in a huge chalkboard with a timeline that goes around, has the dates and the hero's dirty stuff, right? And then like, you know what I mean? And then writing in each core thing on the wall, and then you know how Like they do in the spy movies where you have like the string that goes up and you have the pieces of paper. So I'm like, as I'm writing the book, I wanna have the whole thing timed out in a square room. And so you see it all and they can see all the pieces and how they all fit together. And then that'll, when the book's done in that room, that'll be the wallpaper on the room forever.

Oh my gosh. Okay, all right. So here's a great idea. So you do that up until like a certain point, like this is modern day, and then there's like an end of the wall. And then like from that point to there, that's when you're writing. When you get to the end of the wall, you have to sell everything and go into hiding and become John Galt. Like that.

Book's done, I'm out.

There we go. That's fascinating.

Anyway, so when I get to write a story, that's way different. It's not like a— all my other books are how-to books, so it's like they're written differently.

And so it's just been fun, which, by the way, is why I was like, when I like first got into entrepreneurship, I was like, I don't know why anybody would write a book that's not like that. Like, I'm like, what? Why would anybody write a book like this? This is so lame.

And now I'm like reading it, I'm like, oh my gosh, this is so cool. Yeah, I have a ton of respect. Like, the books I'm reading now, like, I just finished Shoe Dog, which is like Story. Oh, that's a cool book. American Kingpin, which is like the story of the Silk Road and the dark web. My favorite stories I've ever read. I read it twice already, and the writer is probably the best writers I've ever— I read it and I was so depressed. I was like, I'll never write as good as him. I tried to hire him to write my book for me and he's too busy. I mean, I will give you a blank check, just write this book. You're so much better than I could ever dream of. So I had to go learn how to do it.

What was your most— like, what was the most fascinating thing about Atlas Shrugged? To you? Like, of any— like, the way it was written or the concepts or the characters, like, anything. What was the overall, like, the most fascinating part for you?

Um, man, yeah, character development is so cool. Um, I think, I think the coolest thing for me, um, was like each— and I, I'd love to see some diagrams. I don't know it, but each of the characters, each played like they were a character, but they played a role that is like this magnified society as like a group almost, right?

Like, yeah, that's such a good word.

And Dagny, and then like, um, James Taggart, Taggart's wife. Yeah, like all the people, they were like, they were humans, but they were personification of like a segment of, of society, which is really cool. And so it's like seeing that where you're just like, you're getting this like this micro version, this macro problem That was cool because like I never— again, I don't study politics. I'm not deep into it. I don't know all these things. And like you hear this character, you hear the story, and I'll see like, oh my gosh, that represents this group of people that I— and so for me, it was cool because I was able to understand things at a different level. And I'm not the best at this, but I always try to like put myself in other people's shoes. I try to understand like, like that's why I'm not super political because they get so divisive. And I'm like, I see good on both sides. Like I understand like I can love people on both sides of it. I think it was so cool for me because I was able to like, you see the pros and the cons of each thing, right? You see the positive and negatives of each belief pattern, right? As much as I related to him, it's like there's the good and evil, right? Dagny, there's good and evil. All of them have that. So like, it was just cool because it gave me this perspective I didn't know of so many different segments of society. It made this really cool tapestry and picture for me. Huh.

All right. So now the polar opposite. Like, what do you think the book lacked in or like, like didn't communicate well or like left out?

I think stuff we talked about today, like I do feel like most of the producers in the book, they didn't have the other side of it, right? Like the social stuff is important. Like helping other people is important. I get why she didn't, like I said, the Phil Donahue interview, she's like, people should be social, they shouldn't do it with a gun. She never showed that. She didn't show Hank Reardon going in like, oh, this is the cause I care about, like, let me go in at all, you know, in any part. And I think that stuff's important. Like, that's why we talk about the political on the left side, like, like, they're— what they're trying to do is good, it's right, like, it's, it's from God, like, it's so good things, right? But there's like, but there's ways that people twist and all sorts of stuff like that. And I wish they would show more of that because I felt like the characters were one-sided where it's just like, you know, it's like the people, the looters, or the people that are producers. And I feel like there's more blend. I think for all of us, we have blends of those things. Yeah. And they did a good job of dissecting. Super. Yeah. You know, I think we all have all those things. It's like, I want to give, I want to serve, I want to do things, but I also want to produce. I want to do both those things, right? Like, how do— like, what's the world look like where we do both of those things? And I don't know how to, you know, in my, in my little universe I've created for myself and my family, like, I'm trying to, I'm trying to produce. Then we've got OUR, we've got these things. Like, I'm trying to contribute and try to do my version of what I think is right, right? Like, all we can do is like what we think is right in our own little world that we create. And so this is my world I've created. I'm trying my best to do it. And I wish that they would show some of that side. I think, I think that that was the part I feel that the characters were missing, just that part of it.

This episode is brought to you by Nespresso. Introducing VertuoUp, the latest in a long line of innovation from Nespresso. It's innovation you can touch, sense, and taste in every single cup. With a 3-second start, easy-open lever, and dedicated brew-over-ice button, it's even easier to enjoy your coffee your way. Sip for yourself. Shop VertuoUp exclusively at Nespresso.com.

So what's interesting—

Bryce likes charity love stuff.

Okay, well, and I'm so glad you brought this up. What I think is interesting is my takeaway from, or like the thing that I felt like the book was lacking the most is Nobody had kids. Oh, I didn't think about that. Like, think about this, like, none of them— like, because one of my questions to you was going to be like, how has— how's having kids? And I kind of asked earlier, like, kind of changed perspective. But I'm like, interesting, nobody had kids. So like, and, and I don't have kids. I'm not married. I don't have kids. I'm getting— I'm getting married. Yeah, by the way, shout out to my beautiful fiancée. All right, but, um, Like, for me, like, I'm so focused right now. So I grew up in a big family, right? 8 kids. I'm the oldest living. I had one older brother passed away, but like 6 younger siblings. And so like, for me, I'm like, man, like, my whole— my whole life changes once there's kids in it. And like, I know that even though I haven't experienced it because I've seen it, right? And so for me, and like, Lee and I have talked about this, like, the 20s are for us, the 30s are for kids, right? Like, and so I'm like, I gotta make as much money as I possibly can before then because, ah— and I even told Colette this, I said If there's, there's one thing that I would sacrifice my career for in order to be able to do, it'd be like to homeschool my kids. Like, I can't fathom sending my kids to public school, right? That's just me because I grew up homeschooled or whatnot. But like, as I was going through the book, I'm like, I can relate to all these people, but like, they're leaving out like this key component. Like, imagine being Hank Reardon and like living like he did with, with your 5 kids.

Or do you have— I have 5.

Yeah, yeah, I was gonna say 4. I was like, oh my gosh. So like Think about that, you know what I'm saying? And so I feel like one of the— because there's a lot of people I know that have read Atlas Shrugged, they're like, heck yeah, man, like it's the greatest book ever, like for-profit, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, yeah, but like imagine living your life that way with a family. Yeah, like imagine living your life like that, like with the kids and responsibilities, like people that you actually like love. How—

think about this, because, um, like I think of our timeline and it comes back, we talk about with greed and contributions, you know, or growth and contribution, right? Most of us, we get born. Well, all of us, we get born, right? Only way to get here, we all get— we're all born, right? And from like when you're born until you're whatever— for me, I got married at 22. I was 22, right? And so it's like, um, the first 21 years, it's all about you, right? Like, it's selfish, it's growth, it's like whatever it is, you, you, right? And everyone's very inward focused. And then all of a sudden, you meet this beautiful person and you fall in love. Like, this is amazing. And also what happens is it shifts from you, you to like us and like you're giving, taking, giving. And it's cool because like all of a sudden all your focus is on you, it's on somebody else. And but they're focused on you too. And it's like this, this amazing thing where like I'm giving, but I'm also getting. It's like this amazing thing, right? It's like this transition that's easing you into kids because then kids come out and it flips now where it's like the opposite, where you're just serving 100%, especially the very beginning of the kids. Like there's nothing like I was joking with my kids about this. One night when they're like, why are you guys so mean? I'm like, do you realize, like, we get no value from this? We don't get paid a penny from this. Like, there's nothing in parenting. Like, we kill ourselves, we serve, we don't sleep, we work, we pay money, we get— and that's not true, there's value in it.

But I was like, I'm just sitting there imagining Russell telling his kids, we get no value, you do not pay us.

You know, I'm like, I'm like, I'm killing myself.

You do get a tax break.

Yeah, yeah, but it's just funny because I'm like, I'm like You know, and so, but especially the first born, like, they're cute and you get lots, but they're in the selfish phase now where you're giving 100% and they're not giving back other than like they giggle and cute, like, oh, it's so cute. But for the most part, it's like you have this like training, this time where you're selfish and it's like, oh, I'm, I'm serving someone else, but they're serving me amazing. Now it's like 100% service there. And I think that that's a good point. Like, Hank Reardon had only done this thing and then, you know, he never had a chance to like 100% serve somebody else and see what that's like because the value you get as a parent is is when you serve 100% the kids and you see like who they become and, you know, and that's the value. But, um, but it doesn't come from like, from like the, the quick pro quo that you normally get with like, I'm gonna buy this thing or pay for this thing, right? Ever, right? It's like I'm gonna serve and serve and serve and then eventually hopefully someday you learn to be cool.

Yeah, well, because I— and that's a super interesting point, and maybe that's why, maybe that's why she left the part out of it because she was like, none of these people would ever have—

she didn't have kids. That's a big, you know, she's never seen that. At least now that I'm more of an appreciator.

That's crazy. Because, well, like I was going through it, I'm like, this book I think would mean so much different, or like, so like when I first read it, I don't know, like I said, whenever I first learned about this back in high school, right? Like I read it and I was like, I hated reading. I publicly declared, and this is actually funny, like when I graduated high school, I bought myself a pickup truck. I stood on top of the pickup truck and I publicly declared to the world that I would never read another book ever again in life. I hated reading, right? And so that's funny because I'm reading 1,200-page books and I read every one of those books back there. Like, it didn't really take on the same effect as like now, like being an entrepreneur, like being someone like at one point I had 5 employees. I'm like 26 years old, you know? And so like now I'm reading and I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah. But if I read it with kids, I feel like that would even like give you like a completely different perspective on like it. How is, how is having kids changed your— because you're an entrepreneur, like, basically from one, right? Like, you never really had a job, right?

I've served tables and I never had a job for more than 3 months.

So, okay, so yeah, so you're, you're a failure in the normal society, right? You can't hold a job, you're, you know, yeah, you get fired forever. But like, how has change— or how's having kids and like having to balance— because man, like, dude, you're running a— ClickFunnels is a billion-dollar company, right? We're allowed to say that? Like, that's the thing, right? Like roughly, like I'm not off on that. All right.

The value is basically what people pay for.

So hopefully we're going to say a billion dollar company. So like you're running this billion dollar company, you've made hundreds of millions of dollars. You've been paid a million dollars an hour from stage before. By the way, big props. Congratulations. Like how has balancing work now with that, like with the kids, like growing up? I feel like like now they're at— because you're old, is what, 14, almost 15, right? So like, how is that? Changed the way that you view your work? Like, do you struggle with that, like the balance?

Yeah, especially now with like COVID stuff happening, kids being homeschooled. Now it's like, before it was easy to separate, like they're going to school, I'm going here, separation is easy. Now it's harder because like they're still home and it's like, oh, should I be there? Like, you know, it's definitely tough. And it's interesting, I have so many entrepreneur friends, I always tease them because it's like who don't have any kids and they're doing amazing things. I'm like, yeah, but I'm doing this stuff and I got 5 kids and a beautiful wife and I got colleagues in my church and there's so many things. I think it's just— I think I hired a trainer. Dave knows the same trainer. I remember when he started working this, he said the biggest thing you'll notice when you start working with me is that you'll be shocked what your body can actually endure. I think that most people don't understand what they could actually do. Like, how do you run a company this big and have a family and have a successful marriage and have these— You can do it. And most people don't because they sedate and like, I don't watch 4 hours of football at night because I have all these other things, right? Like, I don't know. It's just like if you take away the excuse of sedation, like you can produce so much more than I think people are able to understand. I don't know. So, it's interesting. And then it's been such a weird thing too with kids because I think when you first start having kids, you assume they're all going to be like you, right? Like, oh, they're all going to be entrepreneurs. It's so much fun. And then I had twins. It was crazy. Twins, our first two became our twins. Now, they're 14, almost 15. It's crazy because I assumed like they'd all be the same, the same as me or at least same together. And they are so polar opposites, right? Yeah.

I didn't even know. I just found out today that they were twins. I had no clue. Colette's like, "Yeah, they're both turning 15." I'm like, "Wait, what?" Yeah.

They look at each other, act each other. And like one's more entrepreneurial, one's more— like if you look at like DISC profile, we have a DI, we have an SC.

Oh my gosh.

Introvert, extrovert, like all the things are different. And I always thought, you know, like my kids are entrepreneurs like me. And now, it's like, no, I don't think they have to be. This kind of goes back to what I talked about earlier, like, you know, with my kids, I'm like, "What do you want to do?" And, you know, I think one of my things, some of my kids are very entrepreneurial, a lot of them aren't. I think some of my kids are super smart, hard workers. They're going to be amazing at the roles they play in something. They're going to be a huge part of like changing somebody's world, but it's not going to be the front person of it, right? And so, it's just, it's been interesting watching that. Fulfilling and hard, and it's all the things wrapped into one. You know, it's— I don't know, it's an interesting experience. You're gonna love it. You should start having kids right away.

Yeah, that's not gonna happen. Okay, but why?

You know, you should take time.

Okay, but how long did you go?

How long did you wait? Uh, 2? Let's see, let's see. We had our 18-year anniversary, this kid's turning 15, so almost 3 years. Yeah, 3 years before. We tried earlier, but we could— we had fertility drugs, stuff like that and everything. But yes, about 2 years we started trying.

Hmm. Yeah, I can't. Kids scare me, dude. And I'll tell you what. So like, it's interesting because like I grew up with 6 younger siblings. So like I was definitely old enough to remember like the whole diaper phase. And like, you know, obviously I wasn't the parent with it. But like, and the church that I went to, like 8 was like average to small amount of kids. Like a lot of them were like 13 kids, 12 kids, 14 kids, whatever. Like I think the smallest in our whole church was 4, right? Like, and they were the weird ones, right? You only have 4 kids, right? And so it's like everywhere we went, that's just like what it was. And so for me, like, I had that rebellion phase, if you will, which I don't know, they call it rebellion phase, but like where I was like, I don't want any of this.

Like, why would you—

like, they're expensive and, and they like suck all the time. Like, I can't go do this. I'm like, I want to be so filthy rich before I go like having kids. And so, and I like taught Sunday school and like was very involved in like the church growing up and things like that. And so for me, it was like, I want to go build my business, like building off, like doing that is like more fun. The interesting thing about kids, and I told my parents this, I don't remember what it was, but like my parents are not like, my parents aren't like super like wealthy or like successful when it comes to business or anything like that. But like, I look at my parents as like some of the most successful people that I've ever met in my life because my mom's favorite, there's like little things that my mom like tells me over and over and over again. And she's like, One of her favorite lines is, the only thing I need to know in life is like, I just need to know that my children walk in truth, right? And I'm like, my mom particularly, and my dad too, like both of them, but like I related with my mom because she keeps saying it, is like my mom's definition of success and like achievement was, do my children walk in truth? Do my children— like that is what was success to her. And like, she's like, you can take, you know, like yeah, money would have been great, like all these different things, but like that was like kind of this pinnacle of success for her, is like, do my kids like walk in truth. And so, as I have gone through my own journey of faith which has been, I mean, it has been rough at times, right? Like I've watched her like struggle with it and like freak out because she's like, "I just want—" I'm like, "But it's not like that's not her journey to bear but like it is like at the same time." And so, it's always been interesting. Like kids are like this thing where I feel like once I have them, obviously, I'm there for the rest of my life. But like I feel like there's this stress or like this new there's this new piece of my life that's unlocked that like I've never explored before. I don't know anything about it. Right? And I'm like, afraid isn't the right word, but I'm like pushing that off as long as I possibly can because once that's open, then I never get to close it again. And like that mystery is almost like fun to like look forward to.

But at the same time, be like, I get to focus over here. You know what I mean? Yeah. It's interesting. I remember thinking about this a lot, especially the first few years. I was like, this is so much harder than I thought it was going to be. Be like flat out. I was like, I thought it was going to be, you know, whatever, way harder. But I also remember feeling and saying out loud, like, this is so much cooler than I ever dreamed it was going to be. So it was like this double-edged sword where I was like, man, like, I didn't realize how tired and like worn out and like all these things. But then like, so much better than I thought. And it's funny because I know a lot of friends are like, well, when are you going to have kids? I don't think— I don't know. It's different. Like, I would just have kids like You can do both. It's not impossible, especially when they're first born. They sit there and they're like, you know, and I would throw— I'd spend a year or two and just nod. Right, right, right. But like, I wouldn't wait till like, oh, I need a million bucks in the bank. I get people all the time like, I have— I know people who are broke. They have 8 kids. Like, just— they're not that expensive, right? Like, Cheerios are not that expensive. Like, if you need to, you know, like, it's just being willing to be there and be loving and being present for them as much as you can. Another thing that's been interesting, especially now that our kids are teenagers, it's like so much harder. That's been harder.

Just like— Really? That's harder than when they're young?

Oh, for sure. Yeah.

Dave's over here just laughing. Oh gosh. What am I in for, Dave? Oh no.

The young heart is like, I am tired. I like— that's the hard part when you're young. When they're older, it's just like, if I mess these kids up, like, I just want them to be successfully, like that's the bigger fear. And it was interesting, I remember a little thing that gave me some grace, like Tom Bilyeu, I heard an Instagram post he had of him talking about how being a parent, and it was so funny because he's like, who here is scared that you were gonna, you know, fuck up your kids? That was how he would have said it.

Right, yeah, yeah.

Mess up, who's gonna mess up your kids? And everyone's hands are like, yeah, I'm scared. He's like, guess what? Yeah, let me make sure I get this right. He's like, my parents messed me up. Your parents, like, you're gonna mess your kids up. But guess what? We turn out okay in the end. Like, just be okay with the fact you're gonna mess your kids up because you are. And I remember I was like, okay, like, everyone messed up their kids. Like, that's part of it. Like, that's part of the whole journey. That's the journey, you know? That's like, that's part of it. I think it gave me some grace of just like, look, I'm gonna do my best. I'm probably gonna mess them up. But at the same time, like, you have to have faith. Like, they're gonna do their thing, and, and they're gonna hopefully make good decisions. And if not That's why we have God. That's why we repent. So all these things, you know, and just kind of leave it to him and, you know, do your best.