Greed, Growth, and Giving Back: A Deep Dive of “Atlas Shrugged” with Josh Forti (1 of 5)

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Hey, what's up everybody? This is Russell Brunson. Welcome back to the Marketing Secrets Podcast. Today I wanna share with you guys actually a really cool interview that I did back in 2020. So think back in the middle of the pandemic, all sorts of things were happening. We had a lot more free time. And I remember it was the very first time I had a chance to actually read/listen to the book Atlas Shrugged. And afterwards I got so excited. If you were following me at the point, you know I got really excited. And Josh Forti, got excited, he messaged me, so he actually flew out and we did, I think it was like a 5-hour-long interview on Atlas Shrugged, which was really fun. And so I just recently reread the book and just got back top of mind, back excited, and I went back and started listening to this interview again just to kind of remember what we talked about then. And some of my thoughts and beliefs had tweaked or changed a little bit from the first time, but it was still fun. And anyway, so many cool things came from this conversation. So for the next couple weeks, we're gonna play some of the clips from this interview with Josh Forti and me talking about Atlas Shrugged. I hope it's something you guys enjoy and you love. If nothing else, it'll get your mind spinning, especially as we're moving towards this election sequence and cycle and stuff, number one. But number two, as entrepreneurs, this is a book that's got a really powerful message for producers, for prime movers, for people who are trying to change the world. And so maybe it'll inspire some of you guys to actually go and read the book. So that said, I hope you guys enjoy this first episode from our Atlas Shrugged series. In the last decade, I went from being a startup entrepreneur to selling over $1 billion of my own products and services online. This show is going to show you how to start, grow, and scale a business online. My name is Russell Brunson, and welcome to the Marketing Secrets Podcast.

We are live.

What's up, everybody?

Oh my word, with the incredibly— I don't know if long waited, it hasn't really been that long since we planned this, 2 months ago. Much expected podcast with Mr. Russell Brunson himself.

How are you doing, dude? I'm doing amazing, man. Thanks for flying all the way to Boise just for this conversation.

Yeah, absolutely. This is probably the conversation I'm looking forward to most, certainly in my life thus far, when it comes to business and business and philosophy and everything like that. Well, it's funny, your wife said, oh, thanks so much for coming out. I was like, yeah, it's certainly— yeah, because inconvenience to me to fly all the way out here. I will say this is my first ever in-person interview like this.

Oh, really? Yeah, we got the microphone set up.

I know we have professional.

I've never done—

we have literally, we have a soundboard down here. We got Russell's mic. Can you guys hear us all right? By the way, guys, for all of you listening on audio, we apologize because we're gonna ask for some comments in the Facebook feed here because we got everybody down here. By the way, you can see all the comments down here.

What's up, everyone?

All right, guys, if you are live, comment down below. Let us know where you're tuning in from. Let us know if you know Russell or if you know me or if you know both of us or what you're both looking forward to. And, uh, Russell, I'm gonna be honest with you, we're just gonna be like super chill. We have guys, we have a live audience. Back here. We got Dave. Dave's over there. We got Jake and Nick.

Where'd Jake go? Jake's working.

Oh, there we go. Jake's working late over there.

Jake, by the way, designed these amazing shirts for us.

Yeah, check this out.

This is my reared and still shirt. This is my who is Jon Galt shirt.

Isn't this great? Okay, but I feel like—

Let's flip back to back so that's all ready to you guys. It says, I started my life with a single absolute, that the world was made, was mine to shape in the image of my highest values and never to be given to a lesser standard, no matter how long or hard the struggle. So just like these shirts, these are custom made for tonight, and, uh, you guys may have a chance to, uh, get one of these, but not yet. Or yet— no, not yet.

Not yet.

Yeah, with the ability, um, if you guys—

oh man, oh man.

Anyway, it's gonna be fun, but these are custom. We literally made these today because we're like, we need some sweet shirts, and, uh, um, for the, for the show. So—

or— oh, Caleb Wolf says he got your text. You sent a text to everybody, dude. Russell's on top of it. I sent him a ManyChat. Russell on a text. All right, guys, let's lay some ground rules here. So the quick backstory behind this, and it's going to be weird, got to look in the camera here. Quick backstory behind this is I make a post on Facebook about what, probably 3 months ago now or so, 2, 3 months ago. And I go, we need some epic people to interview for the podcast. Who do you know? Tag them all down below. And shout out Georgie. Georgie comments and goes, I coached Russell Brunson. You should totally interview me. And I was like, you gotta be pretty gutsy to like tag Russell in your comment and tell him you coached him. But then Russell comments back.

George is a little Olympic wrestler. He was on the Bulgarian Olympic team. He wrestled the boys who stayed with me. He's the man. So yeah.

So he, he got— I called him back. I go, you coached Russell? And then Russell goes, well, yeah, he coached me. He's awesome. He totally interviewed him. And so I said, yeah, Georgi, of course you can come on. We'll do an interview. But Russell, got an open invitation to you if you want to come back on. And then you're like, sure, if we can talk about guns. Or no, you didn't say sure. You said, can we do it about Atlas Shrugged?

Yes.

Yeah. Because I interviewed a lot about business stuff and like I'll pull the microphone just slightly.

I don't do a lot of interviews because I feel like I've said what I want to say. But I just finished literally probably the fattest book in the history of books called Atlas Shrugged. And I was geeking out on it and I want to talk about it. I didn't have a way or someone to geek out with other than some of my friends here. And I was like, "You want to talk about Atlas Shrugged? I'm in." And then you started freaking out.

Well, the funny thing was is I go something to the effect of like, "You want to talk about the fall of capitalism because of a boycott because of a brilliant person and why socialism sucks? Yes, absolutely." I would love to do that. To which you don't give me a yes or no answer. You reply back and go, haha, oh man, that'd be fun. I'm like, talk about an open loop, man. Come on. So anyway, I immediately messaged Russell and I'm like, you better not be, you better not be joking because it's like, that would just be rude. He goes, no, I'm totally in. So about 2 months go by. You had a bunch of stuff. You had some fun stuff during that time. Well, I was hanging out with Tony Robbins.

Yeah, Tony, the man. And yeah, it's been It's been chaos the last couple months, not gonna lie. And we got closer and closer to election. I'm like, this is an interesting conversation post-election, but I think it's more interesting before election. And so like, was it 2 days ago, 3 days ago? You're like, I will fly to Boise. Yeah, record this. What day do you have open? I'm like, only Wednesday night. And now it was—

yeah, it was a Friday afternoon. I've like, we were rocking back and forth. You're like, dude, we gotta get this done before the election. I'm like, huh, before the election? Oh my word. I said, all right, sounds good. Like, what time are you available? And that's what I was like, you know what, I was gonna ask you creatively, but I was going to ask you, how about I fly out to you? And you're like, heck yeah. So guys, that's the backstory. That's how we got here. And so this is an open conversation about Atlas Shrugged and kind of everything that encapsulates. I think we'll talk about some religion, some politics, kind of some both sides of the aisle there and open it up. So anything else you want to add to that?

The only thing I would add is because this book, by the way, if you haven't read it, is very polarizing. There are people on both sides of it. And I think both of us wanted to stress ahead of time that I do not believe in everything in this book. A lot of things in this book I do believe in. And it's interesting. One of the things I want to dive deeper in this conversation I'm excited for, and I told you through Voxer, I was like, what's fascinating to me is not like this is what we should believe. What was fascinating to me is as I was reading this book, and we'll get into the premise of the book for those who haven't read it, but you know, the big thing is like producers and like, and going out there and like creating stuff and doing things, which is like what entrepreneurs do, right? And it even gets to the part of like greed is good. Like you should be greedy because it's going to create all these amazing things, which then does the byproducts really good. And part of me is like, yes, yes, yes, yes. And then part of me as a believing Christian is like, I hear this message I believe in and I hear in my mind ringing Christ talking about faith, hope, charity, and love. And like, and I feel like they're these two polar opposite things, which by the way, when we dive into politics a little bit, like there are two polar opposite sides, one that believes one, one believes the other. And I think that there's a happy medium. And that's what I want to dive deep into is I don't want anyone thinking like, oh, Russell and Josh, just believe this or whatever. It's like, no, there's sides of this. And I empathize on both sides. I want to talk about both of them because they're fascinating. And I think I've— anyway, I've toyed with writing a book about this concept, these two things. Anyway, I think it'd just be fun to kind of first time verbally ever talk about that. So, I'm excited for it.

Yeah. And I would just echo that as well. I think one of the things that often happens with me with My, it's just so funny. You who never ever talks about politics and me who doesn't know how to get on Facebook without arguing about politics colliding here. But is that a lot of times I get like grouped into, oh, you like this reading, therefore you believe with like everything. Like you read this book or you like support this person or whether it's, you know, a political figure or a book or something like that. It's like by saying that you enjoy that or that you learned a lot from it, that like all of a sudden, like you suddenly believe everything in it. And that is not the case at all. And I've gotten a lot of criticism from people that are like, how could you possibly like Atlas Shrugged? I'm like, well, this is the conversation that we're going to have. So real quick, before we dive in, I'd be curious. I want to do a poll real quick. How many of you guys have actually read the book? I'm curious to know. Yeah, hold it up here. There's two different versions of it. But if you've read the book, just comment below. Just the number 1 if you have read the book, the number 2 if you have not read the book. I think that'll just kind of give us a poll.

We got like 200, 300 people. We'll count that as reading too.

Yeah.

Either way.

Yeah. If you like— not if you like know the premise of the book, but like actually have read the book and like have a deep understanding of it or not deep understanding of the stories and then things like that because I think that'd be interesting. So one is red, two is not red. More ones than I thought I was going to. Russell's book is so underrated.

We're 50/50.

Oh yeah. I think we should take a poll at the end. What's better, Atlas Shrugged or Dotcom Secrets? That's the, that's the real question we should be asking right now. Okay. So we have a lot of people that have not read it, so I'll have to go into the premise of that. Okay. You ready to get started?

Yeah.

Rock and roll with that. Okay, guys, we want to lay a couple of ground rules. Okay. Because Russell, I don't know what it's like to be Russell. Russell doesn't know what it's like to be me, but like, I think we both have a mutual understanding that we could very easily be taken out of context here. Um, I think the goal, and then I want you to kind of expound upon this, is like, we're not trying to take a side here. We're trying to have open discussion about it. Like, this could very easily turn into something that's like, why do you vote for Trump? Why Biden sucks? Why Biden's great? Why Trump sucks? Or, you know, something like that. Or like certain religion, or we're not trying to convince you of anything really. In fact, this is honestly more of a conversation for us. And we're like, we think it'd be cool to stream it out to a bunch of people because there's a reason for me to fly out here and do that. But the purpose of this is to have an open discussion about the book, the premise of the book, like an understanding of it. And then like, honestly, we're probably going to like be in our own little world over here. And we want you guys to like interact and comment and like engage and like post your questions and we'll go back through it obviously. But like the purpose of this is not to try to convince anybody of anything. It's simply to, at least from my perspective, shed a new perspective and like give the perspective of somebody who For those of you that don't know who Russell is, I mean, the founder of ClickFunnels, a billion-dollar company, you know, SaaS company. You have 400 employees? 400 employees. So like from that perspective and like from my perspective, like to open your eyes like a new perspective of what like what we like, what we don't like. And like I said, more of a conversation like for us.

Yeah, I think it's good. And I think, yeah, like I think a big thing that we will talk about is our goal is not to convince you of anything. In fact, I think I, I'm so convinced myself of both sides, right? Like I believe both these two, you know, things that seem contradictory, but I think there's a middle ground and I'm excited to explore it. So it'll be fun.

Cool. So I think we, I think we got to talk about the premise. Yeah, we got to talk about—

I might have a little mini statue behind me that might help.

Oh yeah.

Okay. So those who have not read Atlas Shrugged, I didn't know what the premise was at first, but this is the story of Atlas. So, you know, Atlas was cursed to be able to have to carry the entire weight of the universe, entire weight of the world upon his shoulders forever. Right. And, and so this is where the premise of the book, like, Like all of us, right? People who are listening to this, my guess is you are a producer, right? Otherwise, you probably wouldn't be listening to me or to Josh. Like, I attract, I teach, I coach, I help producers, entrepreneurs, people who are trying to change the world, right? I'm curious, how many guys have ever felt this pressure, right? Where you feel like you literally have the entire weight of the world upon your shoulders? And if you haven't, like, like, like, it's time to become a producer. That's first off. Second off, like, I can, I can empathize. Like, there's so many times you can ask Dave or any guys on my team. There's days I come in, I was like, I feel like I'm going to crack. Like there is so much weight to carry this around. And I think, I'm guessing most of you have felt that. It could be with your family, it could be in work, it could be business, like whatever it is, but you felt the weight of the world, right? So, this is what Atlas had to hold, right? And so, the premise of the book Atlas Shrugged is what would happen if the producers, the people that are carrying the weight of the world on their shoulders, what happens if they were to go on strike and they were to shrug their shoulders and be like, meh? In fact, should I read the title you gave me today? Yeah. So, Josh, as a gift, they gave me some amazing tiles. This is a quote from, actually, from the book Atlas Shrugged, talking about this. It says, "If you saw Atlas, the giant who holds the world on his shoulders, if you saw that he stood, blood running down his chest, his knees buckling, his arms trembling, but still trying to hold the world aloft with the last of his strength, and the greater of his efforts, the heavier the world bore down on his shoulders, what would you tell him to do? To shrug." So, that's things like what happens to society when us, the producers, when we cannot, no longer want to carry the weight of the world, we shrug and we walk away from it. And the book is a story about that. Like what happens when producers start disappearing and start leaving, they start going on strike. You see society, what happens when the producers disappear.

Yeah, I think that's so— it's interesting because there is no one named Atlas Shrugged in the book and there's nobody named Ayn Rand in the book. And so there's concepts that she's writing about outside of that. And it's this How do you summarize a 1,200-page book? Like, it's like, all right, Zootopia 2 has come home to Disney+.

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Oh, I say the Jocelyn Lee Jung. Oh, you're right.

For the first— sorry, for the first two-thirds of the book, uh, the, the main character is, uh, uh, a woman by the name of Dagny. And basically she is one of the producers of society and She is not the head boss of the railroad, but she's like basically the person that runs this railroad company. And it is written, what, 1950s when this was produced? So 1950. And it's basically like this forecast into the future of a government that is basically forcing super, super strict restrictions onto private businesses and like making them do things kind of like today in America, but like super, super government overreach in a lot of ways. And so Dagny is trying to keep the world afloat more or less by like getting the railroads done on time and like getting orders shipped. And I'm like super oversimplifying, but like around her, all the people that she worked with, like that owned all these other companies that like she would buy copper from or buy steel from or buy the railroad track from or buy the coal from, like all of a sudden, like all these like head people, like imagine like people like Russell Brunson, like all his friends like just start disappearing. Imagine like Elon Musk and Jeff Bezos and Russell Brunson and like all of them just like start disappearing, right? Like that's what's happening all around her. And she doesn't understand like what's happening to them because just One day it's up and it's gone. And so the premise of it, for like the first two-thirds of the book, is like showing this story of this producer who is living in this world of like super government tyranny, like overreach that's like super, super controlling. And she's watching all of her friends disappear and she doesn't know why. We say that's a pretty good explanation of it so far.

And every time they disappear, like leave behind a note or something that says, who is John Galt? That's the theme of the book is who is John Galt? Like, who is this John Galt person? That makes all the producers disappear.

And every time— and so, and Dagny has no idea who John Galt is, right? She doesn't even know actually for a while that John Galt is actually even a real person. And so once she does find out that John Galt is probably a real person, like John Galt becomes like her sworn enemy because she like doesn't know who he is or like what he's doing. All she knows and all she associates with is that John Galt is taking away all these producers of society. It's making her life harder because like imagine you being an entrepreneur and like all of your entrepreneur friends that like you buy stuff from and that you send all your people to, your referrals, like everything you buy all your supplies from. Like, imagine they're like all just disappearing and you think it's because of this one guy who's like taking them all away and like you don't know what's happening to them. Like, obviously they become your sworn enemy. And so if like for the first two-thirds-ish of the book, like that's kind of this premise of like painting this really, really vivid story of these— what do they call them— the great thinkers of society. Yeah, the great minds of society basically like disappearing. And Dagny and there's a guy by the name of Hank Reardon, I think, Reardon Steel. Reardon Steel. Yeah. So one of the— like Dagny and Hank Reardon are like kind of like the two major ones left right before the big plot twist happens and you're like, oh, and then you get introduced to John Galt. I want to let you explain John Galt now.

Oh, man. Okay. So that's the first two-thirds of the book. By the way, there's movies. Don't watch them.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Read the book.

So two-thirds, two-thirds in the book, she starts trying to figure out this mystery of who's John Galt. She ends up finding him and Turns out that he has been going around and getting all these producers to go on strike, convinces them that like, look, it's not worth fighting for anymore. All your incentives are gone. Like, let's leave, let's go on strike. And they leave. And they, you know, John Galt's trying to get her to leave and she's like, I can't. I have to do everything in my power. It's the last third of the book is her leaving John Galt's presence and going back and trying to figure out how to do this thing. And she's watching just the government regulations getting harder and harder and harder and harder to the point where everyone just has to disappear. And one of the things John Galt and the people say, like, when the lights of New York go out, then we'll come back and we'll rebuild society from the ground up after the looters and the people are gone. And that's basically how the book ends, is the lights in New York go out. And then for such a long book, also just ends, you're like, oh my God, one more chapter, come on, like, just end it.

And we're never going to get it. Ah, so well, maybe, maybe I'll write it. Yeah. But so like, that's like the storyline of the book. But where I think we really both want to focus here is kind of the premises and like the, the overarching ideas that like the book presents and capitalism versus socialism. And I think we'll talk religion and politics and kind of everything that's in that. But I kind of want to start with you. Like, I kind of like turn the conversation more like towards us now, just kind of like start geeking out just about that. So like, guys, like, we'll obviously go back. And by the way, we want like all your comments. If you're actually coming below right now, like, where are you watching? Are you watching on YouTube? Are you watching it on Think Different Theory page or are you watching on Russell's page? Like, comment down below. There's even multiple different locations. So we have a bunch of different people tuning in for everything. So just comment down below, like, leave your comments, leave your questions, like, smash the like button, love button, like, share this out. And we're going to try to turn this here. All right, Russell, what's up?

Hey, man.

All right, dude, I've been wanting to— and I hate this terminology, but like, just pick somebody's brain like yours for the longest time. And like, this book. Oh my gosh. So give me like, What do you like about the book? Like, what was your favorite thing?

Yeah. Well, let me tell the backstory. So, 2008 is when the market crashed last time, right? And I didn't realize that that year over 500,000 copies were sold organically by people talking about it, like talking about this is everything she's prophesied is happening right now. And so, back then, I remember all my entrepreneur friends like, you have to read this book. Like, it was the word-of-mouth buzz to sell 500,000 copies of a book that's been, you know, the author died whatever, 30 years earlier, you know, that there's not active marketing out there. It's just, it's crazy. And everyone's talking about like what's happened in this book has happened in 2008. And it was just like, it's like prophecy now is being fulfilled. And so everyone in 2008 was telling me to read this book. I remember buying it and I was like, this is a really, really big book. And I kept trying to get it, try it. It took me a while to get into it. I could never get into it. I read the first, I don't know, first 200 or 300 pages like 4 or 5 times. And then finally this summer, I went on my very first trip where I didn't bring a laptop since my marriage. So, my wife is very proud of me. And so, as I was leaving the office, I grabbed this book and I picked it up and I was like, I have no computer but I got this one. And usually, I bring like 20 books just because I never know what I'm going to read. I just brought one and I was like, I'm going to do this. I'm going to be forced. I'm on a lake for a week and a half with my kids and all I can do is read this book. So, I brought it. I got the audiobook as well. It's funny. I do the same way. I listen to audiobook and read along. I can listen to it way faster that way. And I started going through it. It took me a little while. She does such a good job of character development in the very beginning, it took a while to get into it.

[Speaker:ADRIAN WILSON] Yeah, for sure.

[Speaker:ROBERT_LEONARD] And then the story hits and then you're just like—

[Speaker:ADRIAN WILSON] It's like thing after thing after thing. It's so cool.

[Speaker:ROBERT_LEONARD] Oh, yeah. It got crazy. And so, for me, it was interesting because I think if I would have listened to it 10 years ago or read it 10 years ago, I had never experienced any of the things they talk about in this book, right?

[Speaker:ADRIAN WILSON] That. Now, you don't have to worry about it. Yeah.

Now, you're better. [Speaker:ROBERT_LEONARD] I never experienced like government regulations and things like that, right? Or just those kind of things. And as ClickFunnels has grown from me and Todd to, you know, to our first member, to our first 1,000, 10,000, 100,000 member, you know, 400, I don't know how many employees, a lot, 400+ employees. As it's grown, it's been crazy because you would think that like all we'd be focusing on here inside of ClickFunnels is like the next feature in the app, the next thing, you know, and like there was a year where we had to spend an entire year just refactoring the software for GDPR compliance. We have regulations that come in on taxes and this. Like just it's constant where like most of the battles we fight at ClickFunnels right now is not about like how do we make this thing better for the customer. It's like how do we protect our customers from the government? Like it's crazy. And like there's so many regulations and things. And so like I had been feeling this pressure. Some of you guys may have seen my interview I did with Tony Robbins, or not interview but Tony Robbins' intervention with me last year in Fiji.

Yeah. That was fascinating, by the way.

I'm so glad we captured that. Like it was a really cool moment in my life. But if you listen in there, I talked about— he was like, what do you want to do? And I was like, I don't know. But I like the pressure. Like, I love the game. So I love everything I'm doing. I love the people we're serving. But like, there's these other pressures that aren't the game, that aren't the people that are just like— they get so heavy sometimes where it makes me want to just walk away. And again, I didn't— you know, as I'm reading this book—

you hadn't read that, the book?

I hadn't read it yet.

Okay.

As I'm reading this, where it's like, did you like—

did you know anything about like— like, you know nothing? Okay.

Okay. I didn't know what Alex Stark meant. I was just like, I was like, oh, it's Atlas. I didn't know that. And it was like when I read this title, like, what would you tell Atlas if this was happening? To shrug. And I was like, oh, that's why they call that the shrug. And then I remember feeling like, like vividly feeling the pressure of this calling, right? And how heavy it is. And there's been so many times I wish like, okay, sometimes it'd be so nice to walk away or to shrug or whatever. And so like, I instantly, like, with Dagny's character, I was like, I feel it with Hank Reardon. Like, I had so much empathy and like, understood their characters because I feel that so many times, right? I just feel like Hank Reardon just wanted to invent his steel and put it out. That's all he cared about, right? For me, you know, funnels are my art. Like, like I can't draw, but like funnels are my— that's my art. And entrepreneurship, that's my art. And so I just want to do my art. That's it. Like, he's wanting to create steel and it's all these other things. And it's like, I just, I just want to do my steel. Like, how do I— you know, I just want to do my art. How do I— what I have to deal with all this other stuff? And, and so as I'm reading this, like, I just had so much empathy for the characters because I felt like I was the characters, even though it was weird because it's railroads and stuff like that, you know, and I'm internet. But I think that's why I really got into it. And then I got just curious like what happens? Like how does the story end? Because I'm in the middle of it. And if you, depending who's listening, you may or may not have felt some of these pressures. As you grow, you feel them. Like it's interesting as ClickFunnels has grown, we talked about like like the pressure that I feel today would have crushed me 5 years ago, right? And it's like you have to go through this thing. We build capacity to handle the next set of pressure and build capacity and build capacity. And nowadays, like stuff happens daily that's just like, man, that would have destroyed me 5 or 6 years ago, you know? And so, I think if you guys haven't felt that as you grow, as you continue to try to like get your message out and try to grow your businesses or whatever, like the bigger you get, the more that pressure comes. Do you think so?

With that, and I want to continue that because it's such a good conversation, but like with that, With the pressure, the things that are happening now, like daily, that would have like wrecked you 5 years ago, 3 years ago, like whatever it was. Do you think it's good though that they did wreck you back or that they would have? Like, is it good that at the capacity that you understood that those— you took those things seriously then? Or would it have been better for you to just like be in this mindset? Like, I know it's not possible. Like, looking back, like if you could like snap your fingers and back then would have had the mental capacity to ignore all those things and like go up, would that have been a good thing? Or like the fact that you went through all those things Does that help?

Going through it is what makes you worthy of the things, right? You're ready for it. Otherwise, it's like lifting weights. Like, you try to squat 800 pounds, you're like— that's what it feels like, right? Your legs buckle and you die. But because you went through that thing, you're able to have the capacity to hold the weight. Okay.

Yeah.

So I think for me, that was the big thing is reading this. And so I was just like, fascinating. I was like, this is kind of my story. Like, what— how does it end?

How long did it take you to get through it?

I said about 2 months. I got a lot of it done on the boat and then I got into biking for a little while. So I was like, listen to me biking, biking, biking, like one more chapter, one more chapter. I really appreciate this a bit. It's funny because, you know, one of the premises and they don't really say, they don't say greed is good, but there's a chapter I think it's called Greed. And I remember if you guys have ever seen Wall Street, Gordon Gekko talks about greed is good. And I never understood that premise. Right. In the book, they start talking about how, how like greed is what drives this whole thing. Is it called greed?

I'm trying to find it.

Utopia of Greed.

And then Anti-Greed. So Utopia of Greed and then Anti-Greed.

So what's interesting is because we're taught, all of us are taught that greed is bad, right? Like that's just like, you shouldn't be greedy. Like that's, I think, a principle that's instilled in most of us. But then I think about for me, when I started this business, why did I start this business? I want to make money. Yeah, that's greed, right? You think about any of us. Like we go through a phase in all of our lives that greed is the driving factor, right? When I wanted to become a good wrestler, I wanted to become like— I want to become a good wrestler. I was greedy. I went and got coaches and spent all my time to be— and I was through a very selfish time in my life. Not that it's bad, but it's a very greedy time, right? Kids, when they're first born, like I love my kids. They are so— not in a bad way, but they're greedy. It's about them, right? And it's this growth phase where growth You have to be greedy. You're in the growth phase, right? You're trying to learn. You're sucking things in. You're learning. You're not contributing it. You're just learning. You're growing. And it was interesting because as I'm going through this, I'm like the greed is what got me into business, right? And it's what got these things started. And then the byproduct of that is jobs were created and things like all the byproduct of it is like I think in the book how it justifies like Hank Reardon going after he wanted to build steel and make a bunch of money, created tens of thousands of jobs and changed the world and changed all these things. And so the premise of the book is that greed is this driving force that gets you, gets you moving. And it is like any aspect of your life, from sports to education to business to everything. Like, it starts with greed. Now, we'll go deeper in this. I don't want to ever think that I'm just into this for the transition point. We'll talk about it in a minute. But there's a transition point from greed to growth to contribution that happens. Yeah, but, but that's in the book where I start talking about that. And I remember I was on the Greenbelt here in Boise riding my bike with James P. Farrell, listening to this when I'm reading that, listening to that chapter. And I was trying to think like, is this true? Like, did I get started because of greed? And it's like, yeah, I didn't start a business. I want to change the world. Eventually, that happened, but it wasn't like it was— greed was the driving force that moved me forward. I think it moves all of us forward for such a long time. And as I was listening, as I'm riding my bike, I'm like, yes, I understand this. And then the other half of me was like, I started thinking about my spiritual upbringing, right? I'm very Christian. I'm a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.. And I started thinking about Christ and his teachings, which are honestly the opposite of that, right?

It's like really the polar opposite. Yeah. Which is, it's funny whenever you say that, people are like, you know, Jesus was a socialist. I hear that a lot. I'm like, you need to read the Bible. But anyway, but like, I think he definitely is way more liberal leaning. Right, right. And I think that that's where Republicans, conservatives, like traditionally on that side of the aisle, like fiscally Republicans get into trouble is like, we're like, yeah, we're Christians, but like, we also want to get rich. And like, they never talk about like all the stuff that people like to use Christianity, I feel like, as a like when it's convenient and they don't.

We call it cafeteria Christians, right? They pick and choose the things off the menu they want.

Right. And then they go through and do it. So I definitely want to dive further into that. But continue on that.

Continue that. Yeah. So that, that sort of question in my head, though, of just like So is greed bad then, or is it good? Or like, where does it fit in the whole grand scheme of things? Because it is something that's instilled in all of us from birth, right? When you're born, you're a baby. If you didn't have greed, you would just die, right? It's me. I need something. I need food. I need love. I need shelter, which makes you cry, which creates people coming to you.

Like, it's—

it's greed is this driving force instilled in humans from birth, right? When we come here, greed is what helps us survive the first part of our life. And at first, I was having this like conundrum. I'm just like, like, is this book evil?

Like, right?

But I'm like, all the good things in my life that happened happened initially because of the seed of greed started me on motion, right? Starting in momentum. And then I started thinking, if you've read the Expert Secrets book, which if you haven't, you haven't, you must make money. Come on. No, but in the beginning Expert Secrets book, I talk about this concept as well, where as an expert, there's two phases we go through. The first is a growth phase, right? Like I want to be an expert in whatever. You go through and you're a consumer, right? Consuming everything. And that's greed, right? And then there's this transition point where eventually you keep trying to grow, grow, grow, grow, right? Trying to learn everything, going there and listen to the podcast. I'm reading all the books. I'm growing, growing, growing. And eventually, there's this point. I remember feeling it in multiple parts of my life. In wrestling, I felt it. In business, I felt it where you can't continue. I guess it gets hard like that. Your ability to grow through consumption slows to almost a halt where you can't continue to grow. Right? And so, for me, it's like for my— I've shared the story. I think I shared it in the book with wrestling. It was like I was a really good wrestler. I was a high school state champ. I took second place in the nation. I was an All-American. And my senior year, I got invited to go to a wrestling tournament. And my wrestling— or not wrestling, a wrestling camp. My coach is like, hey, do you want to come coach wrestling this summer? And I was like, why would I do that? Like what's in it for me?

Before you go on here, I want to ask you something. Is this— so you're riding your bike, chaparral, like wrestling with this whole greed thing. Is this the first time that you've thought about greed in this way? Like, it's not the first time. So you like, and this is how long, this is what, 6 months ago?

Not even that, probably, probably 3 or 4 months ago.

So you've built most of ClickFunnels, of what ClickFunnels is today. And now this is the first time like you're really sitting down and like wrestling with this idea of like greed and is it bad? Is it good? Like what's the balance there and stuff like that? Yeah. That's fascinating.

Yeah, it never crossed my mind really. And then I started like, it became a thing where like it bothered me because I'm like, oh my gosh, like I don't want to be a greedy per— like, you know what I mean? Right. And I'm like, I don't feel like I am, but like, but I was stuck. I couldn't figure that out. Right. And so I'll rewind to the wrestling story because I think it all set it up. Yeah. But my senior year, so again, I had been growing as a wrestler. I was going to camps, I was getting coaching and it was greedy, right? I was sucking up everyone's brainpower I could and I became a really good wrestler because of it. And then my coach asked me to go coach at wrestling camp. So I say yes, go to wrestling camp. And, and I remember he's like, okay, I need you to teach my best moves. Like, I'm really good at tilts. So the rest is that I'm really good at cheap tilts. And he's like, teach these kids how to do cheap tilt. I was like, okay, like, so I walk out like 30 kids. I'm like, hey, you do this, like, you just do it like that. And they all grab, they'll look at me and they go try and they try to do cheap tilt and they all just fall apart. And like, yes, dumb. It's not that hard. I'm like, come back in, come back in. No, you did it all wrong. How you do it? Show them again. Like, go do it. They go back out, nobody can do it. And then also I'm like, gosh, like they're missing something. What is this? I have them come back in. I start breaking down like, hey, for the move to work, like your hips have to be here, your legs have to be here. I start walking through all the things. And as I'm doing that, I start realizing like, oh, the reason why I'm able to do this is because of this. And I started realizing what I was doing as I was teaching people. As I taught it to people, then the kids started doing it and they got better and better. And also I started realizing like, oh my gosh, like this move works because of this. And now that I was aware of like the situation, now I was able to like make these tweaks and stuff on my own. And like I realized that by coaching other kids, like that was the next level growth. It was the shift from like selfish greed growth to contribution. And so, after I started coaching camps every year and that's how I started, I went from like slowing down my progression to like all of a sudden, it sped back up again by shifting from growth to contribution. Okay? And so, I think the same thing happens in business, right? I got in business because that seed of greed is in us. It gets us moving, gets us into momentum. And some people never get out of that. Some people live their entire lives chasing greed and they die. And it's a tragedy, right? But I think for most people, there's this transition point. I don't know where it happens. It happens in different spots for everyone where all of a sudden, you realize you make the money, you start the business, and you realize how unfulfilling that is, right? You're tapping out. You're like, I'm not growing anymore. Like I thought I wanted money but I don't. I want growth. Like that's what we're here on this planet for is to grow as humans, right? You don't get that. And all of a sudden, you realize, money's not fulfilling. But then you start help— you start seeing the other people you're contributing to, how you're helping. And then it shifts to like, you know, we hear people talk about like, it's my business about impact, about growth, it's about helping other people. And like, that's that transition. That's charity, love. That's pure love of Christ, right? It's that transition. But greed is the seed that gets us moving, right? And so there's this, there's this like this handoff. It doesn't happen all the time. And yes, are you guys cool if I get like, like share scripture stuff? Because like All this stuff is scriptural. Like, it's not just—

they don't get to decide, Russell. It's my podcast. We need scriptures.

Close your ears. So I wrote down some scripture. Like, this is a scripture. So because it, it illustrates this point, like, I think it's so good.

Also, I just want to say Russell Voxed me and he said that this is the first episode of a podcast that he's ever prepared for. And I just feel like when you said that, I'm like, huh, I was the first for something for Russell. Let's go.

I want to be ready. Okay, so this is the scripture. It says, for the natural man is an enemy to God and has been from the fall of Adam and will be forever and ever. I'm stopping there, okay? So natural man's the enemy of God. Why is that? We're born, we have this greed inside of us, so the natural human is the enemy of God because we're chasing after greed, right? But God gives us that seed 'cause it's what creates momentum, it creates motion, it creates us doing something, right? And then it says in here, it says, for the natural man is the enemy of God and has been from the fall of Adam and will be forever and ever. And then this is the transition point. Unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit. So he'll be like, he's greedy forever, right? Forever, ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father. So growth is the seed, it's the natural man, it's the thing we have that's good, right? God gives it to us because it gets us to do stuff, gets us to learn, it gets us to not die in our crib, like, because we need love and attention and be fed, right? The thing that gets us off our butts, off the couch, is us being producers. It gets us moving. And if we're not careful though, the natural man will destroy us. Like you see so many people who have made tons of money and they destroyed themselves and their lives because they don't do that second thing, which is unless he yields to the enticement of the Holy Spirit. That's the thing saying this is not about money, this is about the impact. Look at the people you're changing and it shifts, right? If you make that shift, all of a sudden now the thing you're creating is not about greed. It's like, oh my gosh, like, Like I remember for ClickFunnels, like when I had that transition, it's like when I started seeing Brandon, Caleb, and Paul, and I started seeing the ripple effect of their business, I started seeing like, and I can name hundreds of people, like person after person after person. I was like, this isn't about money. This is about the ripple effect of what we've created each person's life. And like, now that's charity, that's love. That's like, now the mission isn't about money. Like we don't care about the money. We keep score with money, but like, that's the mission is the people's lives and the impact. And I think that's that transition where it's like, greed is the thing that gets us moving. But if we don't have that, I think that's happened in the book. We talked about like you said, it's my house earlier. Like a lot of people in the book seem like they have a miserable life. It's like, yeah, because they never yielded to the spirit. Like they never made that shift. It was all greed to the point where they let everything collapse as opposed to like, yeah.

So one of the things about the book and I'm, I'm sitting on the plane like on the way over here and I'm like, how do I articulate this? Because that's always the hardest thing. Like you have this idea in your head and you're like, How do I get it out and explain in a way that somebody else can be like, yes, I understand that. But like most— and I'm going to go kind of political here for a second. I'm going to bring it back to specifically to the book. So like, I am pretty vocally a conservative, right? I'm a blatant Trump supporter, very much so conservative when it comes to everything fiscal. But I call myself a libertarian because I actually think that I lean left on a lot of social issues. Like I am, I think the government should stay out of gay marriage, right? Like I should, like, there's a lot of things that like, I like lean left on, but when it comes to like money and like finances and like things like that, like I lean to the right, but like the reason I lean to the right and I typically go with the right is cause like, I like what the left is trying to do in concept, right? It's like, okay, there's a bunch of like people that are really truly in need. Like, I agree. We like, we need to help them. The problem is, is that the way they go about doing it, I like so radically disagree with. It's like against everything I stand for. Right. I'm like, it's not that I disagree with what you want to do is I disagree with how you want to do it. What's interesting is I feel like in this book, I feel like it's like the opposite. I actually don't agree with why they're doing it. Like this concept of like, I mean, Hank Reardon says it like over and over again. Like everything that I do is for profit. That is it. That is, it is not for you, even to his friends. Right. Like he took a bullet for, um, John Galt, right? Like he gets shot and like John Galt thanks him for it. He goes, you know, I only did it because it's what I wanted to do, right? Like literally like saves a guy's life. He's like, so it's like it's all about what he wants and only for him. And that's it. It's like profit and money and dollars. It's not about everything that he helps. And I'm like, I disagree with that premise. Like I don't. But what that leads to, I actually do like, and I feel like it's flipped compared to like the world that like I'm living in now. It's like half the stuff The Democrats are— I hate to do any politics so bad, but like left and right, the left. Yeah, the left, guys. We're going to say left and right, generalized here. All right. Oh my God. But like, generally speaking. And so when it comes to like the whole, the whole greed issue, I'm like, it's interesting to hear your perspective. Like, because I never even throughout the book, I'm like, greed is a bad thing. And like hearing your perspective and like, like, you know, when it says I'm like, okay, like I understand what you're saying, but like what? Like, is it greed or is there some other driving? Like, if I were to ask you a year ago, right, when were you in like the heart of ClickFunnels? Like a year and a half ago, 2 years? Like there was a time of your life with all you— I don't know, all you do is ClickFunnels, but like when—

like 6 years of my life.

But like, but you know what I mean? Like, wasn't there like a year or 2 period in there, like in the growth phase where it was like 100% of everything you do is just like ClickFunnels, ClickFunnels, so close. It felt like you were going nonstop. It feels like you're a little bit more balanced now. Maybe not, but like from the outside perspective, looking at it does anyway. Yeah. Like during that time, like of growing ClickFunnels, but like before you read that, Would you have described yourself as greedy? No. What would you have described yourself as?

What's that word? I don't know. That's a good question. Like I was always trying to create stuff, like it's art for me, right? So it's like I was trying to create stuff. But I think initially I was creating for myself as opposed to like, oh my gosh, I create this for myself, but look what happens to the people.

At what point was that shift for you though?

I think it, I mean, you can actually, You can see it in my marketing, by the way. And by the way, for those who are greedy capitalists who only care about money, like, it actually is a better marketing way too. Like, my marketing went from—

for all you greedy capitalists out there, switch to being a contributor to make more money.

Well, think about like my marketing was always like, here's Russell, here's how much money my funnel made, here's how much— you know, it was me talking about me all the time. And I realized it's like this, like, who cares about me? Like, I don't care about me. Like, let me show you what this person— like, let me show you all the results of people we're serving, like what's happening there. Which first off is better marketing. Second off, it's that transition where I was literally like everything I've accomplished is stupid. Like what they're doing, like that's the real— like what we're doing, like that's the thing that's amazing. Right? Like that's the spiritual side of it. That's the thing where it's like the thing that got you into motion now is doing good in the world. And like when you start seeing that, it's like, oh my gosh, like that's so much more fulfilling and so much more exciting. And, you know, people ask me the last 6 years like, why do you keep getting up? Do you need more money? I'm like, no. Like that's not why I keep getting up. But I can tell you 100 stories of people who literally like the ripple effect of like how many lives they've changed because I did my thing, right? Like Jamie, we made a documentary, The Two Comma Club, and Jamie Cross has this whole part where she's bawling her eyes out and she said, "Where would my family be if Russell wouldn't have fulfilled his God-given calling?" And like every time I see that, I start bawling myself. Like that's why I eventually started doing it, right?

[Speaker:ROBERT_LEONARD] But when did that shift happen?

I don't know, it wasn't like a day that it happened. It just, it just, um, the energy of it shifted, right? It was just, it was like, I don't know, it was just, it gradually kind of happened.

What's that?

Yeah, Dave, Dave, come on in. Dave's got—

Dave's here. Dave, take the mic here. This is honestly, I think this has been one thing, it's been fun for me to watch Russell from, from the sidelines here. Yeah, I think honestly it was your dad's 60th birthday, and I don't even know 3 or 4 years ago, probably. But it was the reflection on that. And it was the difference from having your hand raised versus— because, yeah, remember, you— yeah, don't you tell the story? He was a much better storyteller. I'll see the thought, but I'll let him finish. All right. Thank you.

Thank you, Dave.

Interesting, guys. We have a live audience here.

So, you know, my dad turned 60, and we have our little family reunion every year. We do. And so, it was during his birthday. And I remember my mom, my mom gave him $60, $60 6 $10 bills. And so, gave him one at a time. So, okay. The first decade was like 1 to 10. Like, tell us what you remember about that. He's like, "I don't remember anything back then." The second one, he's like, "10 to 20, that's when I was a wrestler. Like, you know, so much fun for me." And then, 20 to 30, it was like, "Okay. That's when like I was starting my business, trying to figure things out and trying to get our family stable." 30 to 40, like, "That's when my kids were wrestling and I was coaching them." And then, 50 to 60, kind of went through everything. And then, after it was done, I asked him, I said, "Dad, of all the decades, like, what one was the best for you?" Thinking in my world, like, the best was going to be like when he was a wrestler because I was like, for me, the greatest part of my life was like when I was wrestling. And my dad said, "The greatest decade is when I got to coach you." And I remember— yeah, I remember. I forgot that story until Dave said that, but I remember coming back and telling Dave and other people that like I always thought like the best part was being the All-Star. That my dad, the best part was like coaching other people. That was a good answer there, Dave. Huh. Which was, which was really cool.