How To Create A Successful Info Business From Your Original Business

Welcome back to the Magnetic Marketing Podcast. This episode is going to be a little unique. A lot of times we're talking about the importance of building an info business, and Dan Kennedy harps on this. This is something that he comes back to over and over and over. However, there is an underlying question that everybody has. Most of the people that listen to this podcast— how are you— are already business owners. You already have something that you're doing right now that is not an info business, more than likely. And so if you are going to start the info side of your business, how do you walk on both sides of the business, and how do you make sure that your time is more free by doing so. In this special episode, you get to listen to Dan Kennedy as he interviews Mike Crowe. Now, Mike Crowe has been a longtime Titanium member and Platinum before that, and he is an expert at building an info business from his original business. So not only are you going to learn the blueprint that he followed on how to do exactly that, but how he's able to manage both businesses and able to expand his freedom. Let's go ahead and jump in with Mike Crowe and Dan Kennedy with how to create a successful info business from your original business.

I don't think there's anybody that has had a bigger impact in the field of direct response than Dan Kennedy. The legend of Dan Kennedy should be ignored at your own peril. They're not really lessons, they're kind of laws that you live by. Dan opened my eyes to what small business marketing looks like. Dan teaches strategic direct response that is timeless. His ripple effect touches people who don't even know his name.

The world as we know it was changed because Dan Kennedy became obsessed with marketing.

Welcome to the Magnetic Marketing Podcast with your host, Dan Kennedy.

Good afternoon, everybody. Welcome to the Diamond Call for this month. I have with me, and we'll get to in just a minute, Mike Crowe, who many of you know or know of, is taking time out of his incredibly busy life to be with us this afternoon, so that's appreciated. Mike is— well, first of all, he's the longest-tenured titanium member and predating it into platinum that there is.— so thus a glutton for punishment. He is doing a spectacular job with core business or normal business and then info business offshoot of it and moving into other info business activities as well. So I really invited him so that we can sort of talk in an evolutionary and chronological way through the creation and development and buildup and sale and buildup again of Business Number One and the spinning off into infomarketing from it as Business Number Two and so on. So Mike, thanks for being with us. And thank you. Let's start, um, not all the way back to the womb, but at startup of business number one. And, uh, so give everybody sort of the thumbnail of, uh, what that business was and, um, what it looked like at its start and, uh, what it looked at what it looked like as, as you developed it.

You bet. I'll try to give the, the short version, but there's a piece you might not even know, um, is my dad and I started a business back in 1985, and we actually tried— we actually invested in real estate on a regular basis, and we started teaching people how to invest in real estate on a regular basis, and we actually ran a local Ria Club. When we were doing that, we discovered this thing, this unusual thing called home inspections, where people would come in and get an idea of what the condition of the home is. And as soon as I saw that, I fell in love with it and said, there's not anybody that's ever going to buy a home without doing that. And so we started into that business and we grew that business from 1985, uh, grew it to one of the top 3 largest, uh, businesses across the nation, then eventually sold that business. For over $1 million, which in that industry had never been done before. It's been done very, very few times even since then. And went from there to working with that company, helping them for 3 years. And then one of the things that I left open was the ability for me to start coaching other home inspectors across North America. And I resigned from that company about 3 years after I sold it to them. Started coaching home inspectors all across North America. And, uh, we called that, uh, the Millionaire Inspector Community, which by the way, people had a hard time with the word millionaire. So we have, and we thought a new name would better inform people of what we do. So we, we changed the name to Mastermind Inspector Community. We still run that today with—

let me stop you and back up and let's stay with the core business for a couple of minutes. So the home— so the home inspection company, uh, grown from nothing to a million, sold, and I believe now non-competes long since expired. You're actually on your second version of that business, correct?

That is correct. And we— so we run what we call prototype business, and I went and bought one of my competitors, went from $300,000 to $600,000 to $1 million to $1.4 million to $2 million. Last year we did $2.2 million in that business.

Okay, so look, both of them, it's a lot of revenue in that industry. Average home inspection, inspector goes in, does a house, generates a report. What does that bill at?

Well, the average guy out there bills around $300. Our average is closer to $500.

So you've got good price strategy. You obviously have good marketing strategy. Just talk a little bit about the marketing of this business. Who is actually the customer? How are you reaching them? What Kennedy-style marketing are you using? Talk a little bit about that if you will.

Getting into the Kennedy-style marketing, I took both my children at the time and I took my wife at the time to go see you at one of those Peter Lowe Success Seminars. I promised my wife when I went, by the way, I would not buy anything. So I was good to my word right up to the point that you came on stage and did your presentation. She looked at me and she said, Why aren't you going and getting that? So we did. We went and got it and I loved the whole magnetic marketing process and product and it started me down a pretty important path. And from that we created our own version of that which we call Big Bang Marketing. And that whole process of kind of what you teach in magnetic marketing is around endorsed services. So we redirected our business around endorsed referrals through 15+ different groups of people, which I call mavens. And so that's real estate agents, mortgage companies, title companies, human resource directors, insurance companies, even our past clients. All of those people who can refer us. And we do a number of things that would fall into information-type marketing, to those group of people and helping them succeed so that they will want to refer us to the clients, uh, those people that are buying homes. Does that, does that make sense?

Yep, absolutely. Um, the, you know, the, the principle diversity is stability, um, you've applied very well because you have these multiple groups, segmented groups of referral sources that you are marketing to on an ongoing basis. So the success of that business then got packaged and turned into Millionaire Home Inspector Community. So now we'll pick back up where I stopped you. And explain that business, what it looks like now, um, and, um, and kind of how it's grown from its inception.

Well, and boy, even that one is kind of an interesting thing. And one of the things that you and I realize is that a lot of times we're different than most people. Um, and so I picked up immediately leaving that company and everything. And by the way, I was sitting at home watching two TV, and my wife came home one day and said, "You can't just sit there watching Hogan's Heroes." Which, by the way, I don't see any reason why not. And I told her, I said, "I'm not sitting there watching just Hogan's Heroes. I'm watching Gomer Pyle and Petticoat Junction and Beverly Hillbillies and Green Acres." Anyway, and so I said, "Well, what would you suggest I do?" And she said, "Can you go help other people do what you did?" And I thought about it and I said, "Yeah, we absolutely can." And she knew I had a notebook with that kind of plan to some degree on the shelf. So what we started doing was we started really outlining what we had done with Big Bang Marketing and outlining what we had done with presentations or information marketing to the real estate offices and everything. So we packaged that whole thing together and we're crazy, so we went straight to having a 3-day event. We worked our butts off making sure that we got at least 100 people there at the event. When they came to the event, they got the big Bang Marketing. They got our— they got our core product, our flagship product as some people call it, and then we walked them through it piece by piece by piece by piece, which we recorded, and that turned into the audio version of, you know, of our core product. And we've been now selling that product for 15+ years, and of course we've added on resource after resource after resource. And I go speak probably 20 times a year at different associations or different groups and invite them to to test what we call Big Bang Marketing and go that direction with it. Then we've now been putting on an annual show for 15+ years, and we have a lot of fun with that. Which, by the way, it's kind of funny because the InfoSummit is around Back to the Future, and that's the same theme that we used earlier this year was Back to the Future. I love that theme because so much of what we do in the information marketing is helping people see the future by kind of getting back to some of the basics. That have helped us be successful. And so that's kind of a nice tie-in there.

How many home inspection businesses are there in the country?

You know, it depends on whether you count franchises or not. I don't normally count the franchises because they're not in tune with what we do, but about 25,000. So not a large group, about 25,000.

So you've got a 25,000 niche size. How many members have you got and what does your event attendance look like each year?

The event attendance is around 300 and it's been 300 for like the last 3 years and we work really hard even now to continue to get it at that number and our membership is probably in the range of, around 300 as well. Now the difference there is that not all of our members make it to the event, which I, I cannot find a good enough excuse for them not to come, by the way. Um, but every now and then, you know, something happens. So we have probably 300 people, but about 180 companies, uh, and then about another 100 plus of spouses and business partners and things like that, because we're real big on suggesting that they bring their spouse and/or their business partner. None of their employees, by the way, because we— the employees, we're going to turn them into business owners, and that has kind of a problem. So we have somewhere about 300 to 400 members in our coaching business at any given time.

And the coaching business itself is, if we were going to draw it on a piece of paper and we were right now on Zoom or something, it would be pyramidal. Um, you have multiple levels, right?

Yep, yep. So yeah, so we have level 1, which I call NCQ, which is the newsletter, monthly newsletter, CD of the month, and a quarterly phone call for those guys. And then level 2, we put a bunch of things in there including monthly marketing materials, phone calls, kind of like this phone call that we're doing for No BS Inner Circle members. So we do phone calls and then we do the event. They get to come to the event at a discount as well for that. And then we have Level 3, which is true mastermind groups. And so we run 7 true mastermind groups. I coach 1 or 2 of them and then we have coaches that coach the other groups and work that way. So it's absolutely— very much the latter effect that you have talked about and shared at many InfoSummits that we're directly putting into place.

The home inspection member now, are they ascending? Are they coming in at one level, moving to the next, moving to the next? Are they— self-selecting as they're coming in the door, what is like level 1 versus level 2 versus level 3 look like?

You know, and this is a great thing, and keeping in mind that we've been doing this for 15+ years, when we first started, we used to bring them in at level 1, which like I said was like NCQ, newsletter, CD of the month, and quarterly, and then we would move them up to level 2, and then we would move them up to level 3. And at some point I started thinking, why not move them straight into level 2 of our coaching process? Because we can help them more, and really what they want is more in that level. And so level 1 has now become kind of a safety net. Hey, if they don't want to be— if they don't want to play at level 2, then they can go back just to the newsletter type situation. And then at our event, our event is where they get a chance to see Level 3, which is the true mastermind. And we bring person after person after person in, and that has succeeded, and they teach something that they did to succeed at that level. And that whole process is for them to be able to see how important, how powerful it is to be able to sit around a table with successful people, you know, 3 times a year, kind of like what we do at Titanium, and then be able to go back and put something into their business and grow it to the next level. So very much the latter effect, but now, nowadays we drive them straight into— the offer is straight into level 2 where they get marketing materials and they get the core product and they get phone calls and they get a couple of months free of coaching. And then if they want to stay part of the coaching program, then they can.

And one of the things you guys do really, really well is member recognition. So again, we can't visually see it, but you can describe it at events and elsewhere. Tell me about the recognition program you're running for the home inspectors.

You know, and I think this is incredibly important, and I don't think enough groups do it. I'm watching No BS Inner Circle do it and doing it in a number of different directions and understanding the different levels and how people need to be recognized. Kind of, for instance, at the InfoSummit and at the SuperConference, but in both of them you will have like the Diamond, you know, lounge where, hey, if you're a Diamond member, you get to go into this lounge where you know that everybody in there is playing at a higher level. There's free snacks, free coffee, free drinks, and also because you're Diamond, you get to do other things You know, like you get to be able to have the opportunity to have the picture with the celebrity and things like that. So we do very much the same type of situation. We try to make sure that we're recognizing members and we have what we call the Platinum Lounge and only members that are at Platinum level can go to that lounge. And by the way, we have free drinks and we have a sponsor for that. And so a lot of times we even have free adult beverages there as well. Uh, and, uh, so they get that feel. And only the platinum people usually get a picture with the celebrity, uh, at ours, and that's level 3, uh, in our group. The other cool thing that we do is, uh, I watched another group do this years ago, and you and I both go so far back into actually working with Amway a little bit. Um, I never forgot how Amway gave me a 90-day pin, you know. And so one of the things that we started doing was we started saying, hey, when you hit this level, we're going to give you a pin. Ours is not based on time, ours is based on revenue and our home inspection business. So when you get to $200,000, you get your first pin. And that was designed especially for single-man operations that were at that level. And then at $500,000, you get your next pin. At $750,000, you get your next pin. At $1 million, we're bringing you up on stage and you're getting a trophy. And Here's one of the coolest things I did last year was I brought all the past million-dollar companies up on stage, and then we welcomed the new million-dollar companies up on stage and gave them their trophy. And all the other winners got a chance to say hi to them and welcome them into that level. So you're absolutely correct. I believe in recognition. I believe in making sure that their accomplishments are being seen. And of course, you know, we created pins for each of those levels. You know, one of the things that you and I both also study is Mary Kay. And Mary Kay is beautiful at doing a beautiful job of making sure that people are recognized for different things. And you and I have both been at hotels where, you know, there's a Mary Kay convention, and we wonder how those people ever make it through the metal detector, you know, because they They're literally covered with so many pens. And so we do a very similar job at that.

So next, um, uh, it came, uh, Coach Blueprint as an outgrowth of taking your business and packaging it up and selling it to others in your niche. So you want to hear a little bit about that?

Well, you know, the Coach Blueprint— and by the way, you continually, when you're being successful, one of the ways you know you're being successful is when people ask you this amazing strange question that you kind of go, "Wow, that's kind of cool." And then you realize it's, you know, if you get asked a lot, that maybe it's eating up a lot of your time. And that is, "Hey, Mike, can I take you to lunch and pick your brain a little bit?" And so they take you to lunch and one of the questions that started happening was, especially at Super Conference Info Summit and other types of conferences where people would find out what we do, they'd want to know, "Can you explain to me how you built a million-dollar coaching business?" And so we created Coach Blueprint so that we could help other coaches kind of understand what we did. Through that process, one of the things we discovered was hardly any of these people have a core product. Hardly any of them know how to put a newsletter together. Hardly any of them know how to go do a presentation, let alone do a presentation and sell. So one of the things we started doing was we started basically licensing everything that we did as a coaching company, as a niche coaching company. So that they could take it and do that in their own niche as well. And of course we show— and we've learned a tremendous amount of that from the InfoSummit and we show a lot of that off at the InfoSummit every year in one way or another. And I learn from other people that are doing the same kind of thing there at the InfoSummit as well.

So here's a time management question. You, you're one guy and you have a home inspection company in the Dallas-Fort Worth area generating $2 million a year in revenue. You've got the Home Inspector Community coaching business and you have Coach Blueprint.— and you've added one other thing to the stovetop, which we'll talk about in a few minutes. And so I think a question in a lot of people's minds who have success in various small businesses and what we might call normal businesses. Or sales careers or professional practices and they see the, you know, the second step. Gee, I could take what we're doing that we have figured out and that we do well and I could package it up and I could sell it to businesses like mine into my peer niche. But the big question is, How does one person do two jobs, two businesses, and still be recognized by their kids and their dog by name? You know, how do you juggle it all without it imploding upon you? I think that's, you know, a big thing that actually gets in people's way. Of this path and because really there's hardly anybody with a successful core business who if you ask them or you ask their wife and kids could you use an extra million bucks a year, hardly anybody would turn that down, would say no, we're fine, thank you very much. They'd be happy to have the money and have good and productive uses for it. And getting to that level in a coaching-centered information marketing business is relatively formulaic. We know just about anybody can do it. You get bigger than that, it gets a little more complicated, but to that level it's not. So there's probably nobody who would turn down the opportunity. And I think what stops a lot of them is the idea of there's no way I can add 2 more spinning plates to my poles and still keep everything going. So that's a long-winded version of a question of what is your time allocation look How many employees you got? Who's doing what? How are these businesses coexisting, running successfully, and not killing you?

And you know, and you and I both realize that we could do an 8-hour session on that one subject alone, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, you've got my thesis. I'm going to take it back all the way back to my wife was pregnant with our fourth child. Her name is Elizabeth now and she's now grown and married and has a job and hopefully will produce grandchildren at some point for me. But Susan went into the hospital at one point and because it was a life-threatening pregnancy and so At one point, we were in the hospital for 2 weeks straight, and we didn't know if Susan was going to survive. We didn't know if Elizabeth was going to survive. Fortunately, I have both of them, and my life is amazing. But at the time, it was very scary, and as is being in business sometimes. And during that 2 weeks, my office manager called and quit, and then my lead inspector called and quit. And it was at that point that I started thinking, I am doing something wrong if I can't take 2 weeks off from my business to sit in the hospital with my wife. And so I started doing a lot of research. And, and by the way, that young lady now, Elizabeth, is like 23, 24 years old, um, and, um, uh, it's just one of the joys of our life. So over the 20 years though, and in that first year after that, I walked around in a fog for quite some time trying to figure out what I had done wrong in building my business. And I discovered a couple of books and I discovered a couple of coaches.

I discovered—

I actually went more in-depth into the GKIC world at the time and now No BS Inner Circle. My time management, what I learned was I was trying to do too much of everything myself. I now have a system where I teach people that you hit a certain point, you're going to plateau. At that plateau, you have to add 1 or 2 or 3 things. You either have to add a person so that you can continue to grow. You have to add a system so that you can continue to make things work properly. Or, and this only happened in the last few years, you have to add a new resource. So what I discovered was I had to add people, but I had to add people so that they could take care of certain things at certain times. And by the way, that's still a struggle today for every business person that grows. As soon as you get past 3 people, it becomes challenging, you know. And I do more now in managing people than I do basically in anything else.. But at a certain point, I started teaching our home inspectors, for instance, once they got to 200 inspections a year, which was about 50% capacity. So anybody in any industry can take this formula. Once you get to about 50% capacity on what you're doing, you need to hire a marketing person. See, the problem is most people start thinking they need to hire, uh, something else, uh, they need to hire another, uh, service tech or something. Um, and then once they get to about 75% capacity, they need to have somebody that's answering the phones and doing and taking care of sales. And then once they get to about close to 100% capacity of what they do, and honestly it's probably closer to 80% capacity, then they start hiring more technicians. And the challenge is most people try to hire more technicians, but it means they have to do more of the phone answering. They have to do more of the marketing themselves. And so we've actually created a formula for our home inspectors, and it's 6 2B 1, and that, that is what the formula is for, you know, a million-dollar company in that industry. Now on the coaching side, you know, it's the same type of thing. We have to have somebody that we can send the newsletter to, and they produce it and send it out. We have to have somebody that can answer the phones here and be kind of like a member care specialist, and all of those parts as well. But here's the cool thing is I could stay a single man operation as a home inspector and make $300,000 or $400,000 a year. I could stay a single man as a coach and make $1 million a year. And it's, it's, and you've done it. I mean, you have basically one person that makes sure that everything flows through to you and from you back to the world in a very systematic fashion. Well, I do the same thing. I just, I just, I flow it through more people because of what we're in the process of building. So my time management, I literally took a big sheet of paper, put it on the wall, and I said, in 2 weeks, I said, during this time I'm going to work on my home inspection business. During this time I'm going to work on our niche coaching business. During this time I'm going to work on our Coaches of Coaching business. Okay. And we also build other things on the counter, like focus time. What am I going to build today that once I build it, it will be around for like, you know, the next 10 years? And so we have, you know, resources like no-cost, no-cost marketing or hiring and training or the top 10 KPIs or key performance indicators. So each year we're building products so that we have those working for us. And if you keep building your membership as you have and as I have, one of the things we find is that if we build that membership, it allows us to be able to set a budget and be able to not only set a budget but to schedule ourselves so that we can do what we want when we want. And honestly, I have, I have so much flexibility in my schedule. If I wanted to, and I'm pretty committed next week, but if I wanted to, I could say Hey, Susan, my amazing wife, I could say, hey Susan, let's go to Greece for, you know, 2 weeks. Let's go to Greece and Italy and Ireland and go visit some people over there, which by the way I did earlier this year. But it's because we set our schedule and we do— and we don't fly by the seat of our pants each day. We set it out there so that we can go through those different pieces. But the number 1 process there is making sure we have the right people in place. Make sure we have the right systems in place, and of course we're big believers in Infusionsoft, and there's other types of systems out there like that. And then this last year, about a year ago, we added a resource, we added an 8,000-square-foot building where now we have everybody under one roof all working together, and to their chagrin, I can literally walk around and say hi to everybody every day if I want to.

Does that help answer the question? Yeah, look, I think the two things I would sort of extract and point people at is the building of things rather than the doing of things, the creating of resources, because a lot of business owners are really you know, they're just doing Bill Murray's Groundhog Day and they're— the 10th year doesn't look a whole lot different than the first year because they're still having to do everything. And when you build systems and resources, then you begin to have time to do other things because They function independently and autonomously on their own. And the other thing I would extract and point people at is simply the predetermined allocation of time. Yeah, here's the blue squares on the calendar for the next 90 days that are going to be used for, in your case, the home inspection business. And here's the red squares on the calendar that are going to be used for the coaching business, and here's the yellow squares when we're going to go goof off, you know, etc., etc., etc. Because most people are operating with a collection of things that they do when there is time available to do them, sort of leftover time. Yeah, there rarely is any. So some things get done and some things never get done. Um, you know, training and coaching of your own people— well, we'll do that when there's time this month. Well, there's not going to be time this month unless you've blocked out the time this month, you know, in order to do it. So I think those two things are what, you know, is helping you a lot with what many people would think is very difficult.

Yeah. Can I throw one other thing in there? Yes. So one of the greatest things that happened when I started coaching and when I started turning or creating an information product out of my core business, which I started realizing how many holes I had in my core business. I think one of the best things that ever happened was when I started saying, okay, I want to teach other people how to do what we do, is I started realizing how much wing it we had in there, doing whatever we wanted to that day, hoping for something.

And it became such a powerful tool. Yeah, what's just carried around in your own head but never codified, right?

You know, never put on paper, never put it to a three-ring binder. That's right.

And, and, and you're right, the teaching of it forces you to, you know, to realize— I mean, I, as you know, I do a monthly publication called Look Over Your Shoulder, which has a lot of current kind of rough draft copywriting work in it.. And I'll often be taking work in progress for a client and using it as an example in that letter. And I almost always wind up rewriting and making the piece better for the client when I focus on showing it to other people and teaching from it, because you realize you're not even doing what you know to do. Let alone what you're going to tell other people to do. So look, I, I think anybody who follows this model, um, InfoSummit, you know, we have Ben Glass, um, who has essentially done in law what you've done in the home inspection business and done a great job at it. Yeah, fabulous. I, I think any of these people would tell everybody the same thing, that their base business, their original business, which they continue to operate— in Ben's case, a law practice, in your case, a home inspection business. Clients of mine, Dustin Burleson with orthodontic practices, they would all tell everybody that their own original business got better, gets better, stays better because they are using it as a laboratory and using it as a show pony and teaching from it to others in their industry. So it's a double benefit. It's actually pretty efficient when you think about it in time efficiency standpoint because it lifts both boats.

Exactly. Um, and honestly, not just both folks, but a whole slew of folks that are following right behind you because you've, you've made a path now. Yeah.

So now on top of all that, um, you've taken on some work with No BS Center Circle and the reboot of the Independent Business Advisor You want to talk a little bit about that?

You know, that's a great point. And here's the thing is when you build your business right, when you build your schedule right— people actually came up to me and said, "Mike, how will you have time to focus on being the master magnetic marketing advisor and helping all the other magnetic advisors?" And I said, "I'm curious what makes you ask that question." And the fact that you asked that question makes me think that you're tied into your business so much that you have no freedom. And the way my schedule is, I could take 8 weeks of vacation and my businesses would continue to grow even as we're moving forward. So if you build your business right, it should generate revenue, but it also should generate freedom and the ability to go work on something that's important to you. I'm kind of one of these weird people that I believe in them. Once you're successful, part of your job in the world— and I know a lot of people don't agree with me on this— but part of your job in the world is to help other people be successful as well. You know, somebody gets their business to a certain point and they go, "Great, I got my business to a certain point. I'm done." I'm a little brutal about that. That's pretty damn selfish. Okay? All right, great, you got yours. Now you want everybody else just go figure out the hard way how to get there when you could show them how to go do that. And if you figure out your business and get it set up right, you know, and we're only running about a $4 million, you know, operation here, but you know, I don't worry about money. I don't worry about paying bills. I don't worry about, uh, you know, me and my wife taking a vacation, uh, and, uh "If something were to happen in my life, I could go take a week, 2 weeks, 3 weeks, 4 weeks, maybe longer if I wanted to, and just go do whatever I want to. If I need to go take a sabbatical and go sit on a hill somewhere with a monk and just say, 'Um,' I could do that." But most people's businesses, because they don't grow it right and because they've never looked at the business as a prototype so they can teach it to others, literally have to work in their business day in and day out and struggle with it.

Um, and there's a principle, um, um, a kind of a Murphy's Law of time, which is for most people, work expands to fill the time available to do it. Yeah. And you know what you've been good at and what real astute entrepreneurs are good at is almost the opposite of that principle of taking work and making it tighter and tighter and more and more efficient so that new time becomes available for the next opportunity. Yeah. And, you know, most people do not operate that way, so they're always full. You know, when you were talking about if you're at X percentage of personal capacity, if you're at Y percentage of capacity, if you're at Z percentage of capacity— well, is it The main reason most people's businesses don't grow, let alone the main reason business owners don't graduate, don't mature into being entrepreneurs, is because they're always at 100% capacity because they let the current work consume all the time available rather than continuing to organize the work better and better and better so that it uses less and less of capacity and there's room for another opportunity. And I think that's, you know, that's a very big difference between the way most business people operate and the way people like you and I try to operate.

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