How To Fascinate Your Prospects With Sally Hogshead

Welcome to the Magnetic Marketing Podcast. We're so excited to have you here. Today we're going to be listening to Dan Kennedy as he interviews Sally Hogshead, author of the book Fascinate. Now Sally has been a well-known advertising expert for a long time. Today we're going to talk about why it's so important to capitalize on your unique value and personality inside of your business and how to be able to do that appropriately, plus how you're going to be able to use fascination in conjunction with persuasion, how they differ, how to use them together, and in the end, we'll give you a formula for creating an introduction that truly fascinates your customers and helps you ensure that they are the correct match for what you offer.

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Welcome to the Magnetic Marketing Podcast with your host, Dan Kennedy. Good afternoon, Diamond members. Uh, we are here again. Uh, with us today, as you undoubtedly know, is Sally Hogshead. And if you've followed my many, many recommendations, you should already be reasonably familiar with her and her work. You should have read her book Fascinate. If you haven't, as soon as we finish this call, it would be an excellent time to trundle your fingers over to Amazon and get your paws on a copy. But briefly, Sally comes from the advertising business essentially as I do. As I have told people in the run-up to Superconference, I do not think I am easily impressed. I am very impressed with her work. I recommend it highly. It's a very sophisticated approach to an important part of the marketing process. And so today we're going to talk a little bit about that and about how fascination works and why it's important and why it's different than persuasion but fits with persuasion. So Sally, welcome. Thank you for joining us.

Hi, Dan. I'm happy to be here.

And I thought we'd sort of start with the problem and then talk about the cure. So let's start with the old formula, attention, interest, desire, action. So we'll start with attention and sort of the evolved and evolving problem, what used to be true about attention span that isn't, and what's true now.

What used to be true about attention is that you had 20 minutes to earn somebody's attention and capture their interest. The average attention span was 20 minutes long. And this meant that, let's say you were introducing yourself to somebody at a networking event. It meant that you could ease into that conversation. You could tap them on the shoulder, introduce yourself, spend a little time on the fluff, on the weather, on the environment, before you really got into any kind of meat. Today, it's totally different. The average attention span is only 9 seconds. This means that after 9 seconds, the person that you just tapped on the shoulder, their brain will involuntarily, whether they realize it or not, start focusing on other things around this room. And you know this feeling. This is when you're talking with somebody and you can tell they're distracted. You can tell they're kind of mentally scrolling through their emails or their to-do list. What you're saying is going in one ear and out the other. So in this distracted world, how can you immediately add value? Here's the big problem, Dan. It's not just the attention span. The attention span isn't the issue in and of itself. The problem is that we damage our personal brand. We damage our reputation when we ask people for their attention and we don't give them something of value in return immediately. So if I tap you on the shoulder at a networking event and I waste your time by fumbling through some kind of a weak introduction that doesn't deliver any value or understanding to you, I've just wasted your attention span. You are disincentivized to interact with me. You're actually less likely likely to interact with me then than if I hadn't introduced myself to you in the first place. And the problem is that as entrepreneurs, this is— for nobody is it more important than for entrepreneurs, than for us to understand how do we immediately add distinct value so that we can use it to the best and highest of our ability.

You know, it's such a good point and it applies. That example is a good one, but it applies everywhere. I mean, I just— in fact, people will see it in the April newsletter. I just did an ad critique, and, you know, well-intentioned people who own a fitness center are running this ad, and there's an attention residents of XYZ, wherever they are, you know, attention residents of Knightbridge Town, and then the top 1/3 of the ad is their logo, which has the name of their gym in it. And it's the exact equivalent of what you just described. It's tapping somebody on the shoulder and they spin around to give you their attention, and then the, the thing that you show them is a logo with a company name in it.

Yeah, it's like shoving your business card into somebody's hand before you've even made a connection.

And now your point is, is what little patience there may have been for that some time ago. There's now no patience. I mean, the language you just used, you know, how do we add or how do we demonstrate immediate value is such a terrific way to put it, and it's not a way I think most people think about their advertising, their marketing, or their personal presentation of selves. But it is a good way to think about it.

Well, it's the only way to think about it today if we want to be successful. And here's the big shift, Dan. It used to be your success as an entrepreneur or in life as a communicator used to be about how you see the world. So that's where how you see the world was the most important thing you needed to know in terms of communication. This is where the tapping on the shoulder at a networking event without giving value comes from. It's where using the top third of an ad to have a logo to announce yourself comes from. Well, how you see the world doesn't really matter when the environment becomes intensely competitive, intensely distracted. What really matters is not how you see the world. What matters is how the world sees you. And when you start to make this shift of understanding how the world sees you as a person, as a company, as a business, as a brand, that's when you can really start to persuade and influence.

So can you give me an example of either bad versus good or a transition from bad to good?

Yes, let's say we have two different salespeople. Let's just use salespeople since it's a good common reference. Let's say they're financial advisors and there's a really hot key prospect they'd love to work with. We'll name this prospect the Martins. The Martins are going to be talking to a few different financial advisors to decide which one they should work with. And the Martins are empty nesters. They have a lot of money to invest. They're in a really great position, so they're extremely desirable as a prospect. Financial advisor A goes in. Let's call him Andy. Andy comes in and he has a shy personality. He's not necessarily charismatic, but Andy's really clear on the value he provides. He's done his background research. He knows what the Martins Martins need. He doesn't know them personally, but he's done as much background research as he can so he can come in with a confident point of view. He understands the opportunity that he can deliver for them, but most of all, Andy understands the personality advantage that he has, what I call the fascination advantage. Andy knows how the Martins are going to see him. He understands the signals that he's giving off. He understands—

Can I stop you right there without derailing your train?

Yeah, absolutely.

Okay, so first of all, just as a side comment, Some people know, some people don't know, but the financial advisor example is kind of apt because Matt Tagula and I brought Sally into the coaching group of top-performing financial advisors that we've worked with over the past couple years, and she just did a spectacular job. I wanted to say that. But the thing I didn't want people to miss that you just said is as a result of your process, this financial advisor would have great clarity about how the Martins would see and perceive him based on who they are and what his fascination strengths and weaknesses are. And that's something most people probably don't have a great deal of clarity about when they get on the phone, get with somebody in person, or even communicate through media. They really haven't thought through How is this person at the other end going to perceive me? And that's a very powerful part of your process. Now just ignore me and start back where you were with Andy.

I'm going to derail myself for a minute and focus on what you said, because the point that you made was there's a methodology behind this. This isn't random. You don't have to be creative to figure this out. That if you don't understand your own distinct value, you're a commodity. You're interchangeable with anybody else. You're interchangeable with your competitor. And if you're interchangeable with your competitor, then you can be replicated, you can be outpriced, and you're going to lose your place in the market. You're going to become irrelevant, forgotten, and ignored. So there's a lot at stake here. There's a lot at stake for the financial advisor that we're talking about in this hypothetical scenario that we're making up as we go along. But the same is true for each person on the line. Each of us, our businesses will live or die on our ability to avoid commoditization and focus on our distinct value And it's our job as the leaders of the organizations to understand how we as individuals, how our personalities add value because we lead the company. The value of the company to a large part is going to be defined by the way we as the individual leader define that. So let's come back to our story that we're making up as we go along. So when you're really clear on the value that you provide, like Andy, this, the financial advisor that we're describing here, When you're really clear on how the world sees you, and you're clear on how you communicate what makes you different and better than your competition, not just your product, this is not about products and services. Products and services can be replicated. Products and services for most of us are commodities. You drill fillings, I drill fillings. You install carpet, I install carpet. You sell financial products, I sell financial products. We can't just compete on our products and services. We have to understand how we as individuals add value. So Andy's really clear on that. So when Andy communicates with the Martins, he is able to communicate in a way that captures their full attention. They are not just interested, they are fascinated. And in this moment of fascination, their brains are only focusing on Andy and on his message. So they don't experience doubt. They don't feel confused. They don't feel overwhelmed. Mr. Martin is not thinking about the game that is going to be on TV later that day, and Mrs. Martin is not thinking about her shopping list. They are thinking about their financial future with Andy, and they are totally immersed. And this is the neurological state of fascination that Andy is able able to create because he understands how his personality adds value so he can build resonance in a totally authentic way even though he's not charismatic and even though he doesn't have a script. He's just doing it naturally. It feels effortless for him and it feels very comfortable for them. But now imagine that Andy's meeting ends and the Martins are really happy with him as a possible advisor, but they have another meeting and the next guy's name, we'll call him Simon. So Simon comes in And his products are equivalent, potentially even a little bit better. But the problem is that when he comes in, he feels awkward. He's kind of fumbling and he's focusing so much on the product and service that it starts to become uncomfortable for Mr. and Mrs. Martin. Without even realizing it, they're creating— Simon is creating stress. He's creating stress for them. He feels stressed. He doesn't have the right words. He doesn't have a good introduction. And so he fails to fascinate them. So Mr. Martin starts thinking about all the other things he could be doing. Do they really have to make this decision? They become overwhelmed and they just want to end the meeting as quickly as possible. And we've all been in this meeting before when we blow the meeting. We fail to captivate our listener and we lose as a result. So the difference between Simon who failed and Andy who wins is not the products that they're selling. The difference is that Andy understands the way his personality adds value because he understands his fascination and advantage. He knows their need. He knows his opportunity and he knows his competitive advantage to leverage himself and all the personality assets at his disposal.

If I may, there's a third financial advisor, so we could call him Charlie. And what Charlie would come in the room with is, in a sense, as bad as Simon, if not worse. He would come in delivering the same canned, memorized, PowerPoints on laptop presentation that he delivers to everybody in exactly the same way. And, and that too is going to have the 9-second tune-out effect, because it's my contention, as soon as people realize that they're getting a one-size-fits-all presentation their interest in it ends.

Their interest ends, and there's almost a repulsion that happens. People don't want to interact with you when you waste their attention span. So it becomes— this is important with the martens, but it's also important with our current clients, with our employees, with our partners. When we waste people's attention span, we lose. We fail. People start to shut us out. So the stakes are big.

I want to go back to one other thing that you said because I want, I want to be sure that I'm clear and that people are clear. So I'm not now going to get it verbatim because I didn't jot it down, but you indicated that if you have a grasp of this, if you do this right, regardless of our in-person example, or I could translate it to sales letter, ad webinar, etc. You can actually change the neurological state of the prospect, listener, reader, viewer, audience. Talk a little bit about that.

We have all had the experience of feeling fascinated by a movie that we're watching. You know that feeling? You're watching a movie and it's almost like time seems to either fly by or stand still. You know, you're not thinking about the outside world because you're totally immersed. And if somebody If you could look at your brain in that moment when you're totally fascinated, when you're fixated or mesmerized by a story or a person or an idea, falling in love with them, in that moment your brain is in a state of relaxed happiness. And in fact, neurologists have looked at professional golfers, look at their brain on an MRI when they're just mentally going through their swing. And when the golfer goes through his swing, his brain becomes completely focused and relaxed. He's in the zone. He's in that flow state that we all achieve when we're totally focused on our work. You know these moments in your work when you're in that flow where the ideas just seem to come and you're operating at your peak performance. This is that flow state that happens when we are using our natural fascination advantage. So it stops feeling like a struggle, stops feeling like work. You know, you don't— it doesn't feel like an awkward, unnatural way of communicating. It just feels like exactly you doing what you do at your best, just like a professional golfer mentally rehearsing his swing. So when you're in this state and you're talking to a prospect, when you feel natural, your body relaxes, your prospect relaxes without even realizing it. They're picking up on these cues from you. They understand that you're in a position right then of your maximum influence. And in that moment, their brain opens up in the same way, and it's into a state of relaxed happiness. Happiness, and the barriers fall away. And in fact, the research shows that in this state of flow, when you're connected with somebody because you're at your most fascinating, it's almost as though their brain is falling in love. They stop being cynical. They stop being skeptical. They open up, and the lines of communication are open. And this is when they're focused on you and on your product and on your company and on your message. And we're most likely to persuade them in this moment. These are these golden windows windows of communication that we need to look for as entrepreneurs. These golden windows of opportunity when we can communicate with somebody so powerfully that we can change their decision-making process and their purchase process.

So tell me now how you think of the translation of that from face-to-face, one-on-one selling to one-to-many selling or or use of media?

The exact same principles apply between you as an individual and your company. The Fascinate system, the Fascination Advantage system, was originally built on branding. So all of the principles that apply for paid media or for direct response also apply for you in a meeting, just like we were talking about a moment ago. Your job is not just to tap somebody on the shoulder at a cocktail party or with your advertising and ask them for their attention. You are going to fail if you do that and you are going to turn them off and it is a waste of money. Just donate that money to charity because it is a much better place than any kind of paid media. Instead, we want to fascinate our listeners, to fascinate our audience. And the way in which we are most likely to do that is through our natural authentic fascination advantage. And so my company studies, well, what is your fascination advantage as an individual? What is it about you that makes you most influential, that makes you most persuasive? Why are people most likely to trust you and believe you and like you and want to follow you and want to buy from you, to refer you and be loyal to you and pay more money for you versus your competition?

This is the, this is the fallacy of the copywriter swipe file and why it's a useful tool, but I always issue a lot of caveats with it, is— and a lot of people writing their own copy, uh, and a lot of journeyman copywriters are basically cut and pasters. So, oh, here's somebody's good headline, I can change it from chiropractic to dental and I'll use it. And here's somebody's good first paragraph, and here's somebody's good close, and so forth. And it's certainly better than nothing. But what it lacks is the unique voice. It lacks Mike Vance, who I don't know if you've seen any of Mike's stuff. I think I mentioned him to you, but who worked with Walt for many years. Vance's whole theory about sales and persuasion was is that whether people consciously know it or not, at least unconsciously, The thing they're looking for more than anything else is authenticity. Is this person real, or is this person wearing a mask and conducting a masquerade? And what you're talking about— and I'd like you to just sort of describe maybe a few of the archetypes or how the whole system works— but you're really talking about somebody identifying their personal authenticity and then leveraging it rather than, oh, here's a model that works, here's a script that works, now everybody's got to use that. I mean, there's a, like, there's a, there's a sales training company, I suppose I shouldn't mention their name, and again, they are a whole lot better than not getting any sales training at all, but really their entire premise is Here's an approach, a approach, and everybody will now use this approach. And it's better than nothing, but it's nowhere near as good as an authentic personal approach combined with principles that work. So can you talk a little bit more about how your system gets somebody to have a grip on their personal assets and their ability to leverage them.

Absolutely. I'm going to bring it back to the individual because there are so many ways, Dan, there are so many ways in which you and I believe many of the same things, most of the same things, and what I've tried to do in my work is bring a system to it so there's a step-by-step methodology. And I know that the— our friends on the call today are so familiar with the way you described this and how it applies to companies and to marketing. I'm going to bring it back into the realm of the individual because I think it's easy for us to step away from the world of marketing just for a minute and think of ourselves and how we introduce ourselves. My research has shown that 90% of introductions fail. 90% of introductions fail to lead to any kind of authentic communication or any kind of a relationship or even a real conversation. So that means only 10% of introductions will go on to have any kind of success. So we began studying this intensely. Well, what are the components of a successful introduction? And this is part of what I'm going to be teaching at GKIC when we're together at Superconference, and I'm going to be going into breaking this down into a step-by-step system that before you tap anybody on the shoulder, whether literally or metaphorically, you want to mentally go through these key steps I'm going to give a quick review right now so that we can start returning to what you were describing, Dan, how important it is to have authenticity and uniqueness. The first step of any interaction is identifying what does the other person need. In other words, what's missing? What's the pain point for them that you can solve? The second component of a successful introduction is understanding what's your opportunity. In other words, what's your opportunity to solve their need? So returning to our financial advisor scenario from a moment ago, the need was that they wanted to be able to invest now that they were empty nesters and their financial scenario changed. They wanted to find an investor— excuse me, find a planner. The opportunity was that Simon and Andy and Charlie, they all had products and services that rational benefits that were probably very similar to each other that they could offer. Well, generally this is where we stop as marketers and as individuals. We, we only go as far as what our rational benefits are. But there's a third component to a successful introduction. And the third part is the most important part, and this is where most people fall down. This is the reason behind the 90% failure rate. And that third component is what is your personality advantage in this scenario? In other words, how is your personality most likely to add distinct value so that you are different and better than your competition. And it's part number 3, this advantage, that is the key to be able to leverage to stop competing on the basis of price and to stop spending more money on marketing and more money on overhead and to stop being in that struggle and pain of trying to grow your business in a way that's not true for yourself. When we understand the way in which our personality naturally adds distinct value, we can start to apply it. To every single part of our business. And this is where real growth happens. This is where we— this is when the money starts flowing in because we're putting out there exactly what we want our clients and customers to respond to, what we want them to buy. And so people begin to buy our services or hire our services for exactly the reason why we are most likely to be in the business in the first place. So let's take an example of this. Dan, why don't you give me an example? Let's go through need, opportunity, advantage, and we'll apply it to a couple of different archetypes in the fascinate system so people can see how critical understanding your unique advantage is.

Well, you want a business exam— I mean, so let's take a dentist. Okay. And sort of his area of specialization is extraordinarily phobic patients.

Great. So, a dentist who specializes in extraordinarily phobic patients, and there's not just one of those. There are many of those. So even within that niche, there's a lot of competition, right?

Yeah, there's a blue bazillion of them.

Right. Well, because this is a really common— this is a really common need. So looking at this, looking at this, these 3 steps that I described just a moment ago, the first step is what is the need? And the need that we're outlining here is that these patients don't just want dental care. In fact, dental— the quality of the dental care may even be secondary. The main The main need they have is they're afraid of this process. They don't want to experience pain, and they may have negative associations from the past. So the need is that they don't want to feel pain. The opportunity is that a dentist could have not only a good nurturing staff and a warm and inviting atmosphere, and they might have special technology or special procedures or specialized training so that they understand how to overcome the problem. But the real way that the dentist is going to be able to stand out, not only as a practice, but also as an individual, is to understand that third component. What is his or her advantage? If your personality is what, what I call the Beloved, the Beloved's personality advantage is that they're nurturing and sincere. So in this scenario that we've just described, the Beloved personality would come in, kind of sit with them gently, hold their hand, say, I understand, and I'm going to make sure that you don't You won't experience any pain here. So it's almost a— it's a paternal style of communication that's going to help them emotionally bond and feel at ease.

Now, take a personality archetype that would not maybe naturally or obviously lend itself to this scenario and tell me how that person makes it work.

Somebody who wouldn't— who wouldn't necessarily—

yeah, that's not so obvious, right? The beloved nurturer is obvious.

Right. Well, how about a watchdog? A watchdog is an aggressive personality. They're proactive, they're alert, they're cautionary, they're pragmatic. They come in, they're like, they lay down the law. The watchdog personality uses primary power and secondary alarm. So they're there, the way they walk, the way they speak, those signals that they're giving off are totally different than the beloved. The watchdog is going to walk in, they're not going to bond, they're not going to hold hands, they're not going to have zero bedside manner. But here's what they're going to do, they're going to say, I get it, you "Because you don't want to feel pain, and here are the 3 steps I'm going to take to make sure that every single step along the way you will not feel pain. Here's the anesthesia I'm using, here's the training I have," and so on. They're going— in a very rational and linear way, they're going to outline how they accomplish pain prevention for the phobic patient. Now, that's a totally different style of interaction, but for certain patients, that's going to be exactly what they want. They're not phobic emotionally, they're phobic in a very practical way. Kill, kill the sensory signals coming from my nerves.

So I want people to understand how sophisticated this process of yours is. So first, talk a little bit about the research behind it, and then the number of primary archetypes, the number of secondary archetypes. I mean, when you first look at your chart, it's like like, uh-oh, in terms of complication to a lot of people, but it really is sophistication, not complication. And it allows people to get really precise with this.

Yes, my company studies how entrepreneurs can identify and apply the best and highest use of their personality. This is what we've been talking about this whole time. What is the distinct value that you add that makes you different and better than everybody else? But it's not enough just to talk about it. A lot of people tell you you should be unique, that you should have a niche, But then the question is, well, yeah, duh, how? How do I do it? Show me how. How do I figure out what makes me unique and how do I articulate that? So that's the charge that my company has tackled over the last decade. And we've studied 140,000 people. About half of those are high-end entrepreneurs who run their companies and have a real vested interest in understanding the hand-to-hand combat that has to happen for a leader going into a situation, applying their their own personality strengths. And as we've been studying this, we've been publishing our research. In fact, the research has been published in 14 different languages around the globe as it's becoming adopted, this very new idea that we need to stop thinking about how we see the world and start understanding how the world sees us. And we've begun to break this down in a system because it's not enough just to have theory, right? You want to be able to have practical, day-to-day, hands-on application that you can give to your staff. So, we've developed a system that begins with understanding. Step 1 is understanding how does the world see you and what is your distinct value? The second step is understanding how do you communicate your distinct value? In other words, when you tap somebody on the shoulder at the networking event, what do you actually say? What are the actual words you use in order to make them want to connect with you, to be instantly fascinated? The third step is to understand your team. Once you understand why your assistant does what she does or why your partner responds the way he does, he does to you, then you can be much more effective in building your team, getting everybody in a high-performance mode, using people to the best and highest use of their personalities. The fourth step is maybe the most exciting one. It's understanding your client, your prospect. What makes them tick? We study it almost like bird watching. A bird watcher can look at a bird from 100 feet away and identify exactly what the bird is based on markings, sound, behavior. Characteristics. Well, we do the exact same thing with personalities so that you can quickly read and identify and bond with any prospect. And then the last step is how do you apply this to your marketing? How do you apply it to direct response and pricing and all the other parts of the external-facing communication? But it's all one system. It's all one set of steps. And so we wanted to make sure that we're giving a tool that's simple but also sophisticated. So at the core of it is the matrix that you were just describing a minute ago, Dan. It's one piece of paper. And this piece of paper is, it's the key that unlocks how the world sees you and how the world sees your company and how you use that to attract prospects. And this one piece of paper, it breaks it down according to the 7 triggers. There are 7 different triggers. Think of them like each one is a different mode of communication. Power, passion, mystique, prestige, alarm, rebellion, and trust. Each trigger gets a different response. Michael Janz, who's one of my favorite entrepreneurs in Bend, Oregon, he's got a fabulous coaching practice with insurance agents. Michael describes them as weapons, and he says, you've got these 7 different weapons laid out on the table in front of you, and you're about to go into a pitch where you could win a $100,000 piece of business by snapping your fingers. But which weapon should you choose? Well, you can't know which weapon you should choose until you know which problem you are trying to attack. And as Michael describes it, he says, okay, if I know I want to go in and I want to quickly bond with that prospect, I want to have an emotional relationship with them to warm them up and get them excited, well then the weapon I want to pick up is the passion trigger. And the passion trigger is going to show you exactly how you can create warm and fuzzy communication. But on the other hand, you may want to go in and make them feel alert, and maybe even incite a very effective use of fear to say, "You don't have enough coverage. You could be liable for $2 million. You really need to up your coverage. Let's look at this quickly." Well, in that case, you would be picking up a different trigger. That would be the alarm trigger. Alarm is about getting people to act quickly because of potential negative consequences. So you can see that we have options as marketers. And as leaders, but we have to choose, we have to strategically choose just as when we play golf, we have different golf clubs, different tools in our tool belt. We have to strategically choose which type of communication is going to lead to the result that we desire.

And the personality categorizations, I mean you named Beloved, Watchdog, how many of these are there? And for each person there's a primary and a secondary, correct?

Yes, exactly. Each of us has a primary trigger and a secondary trigger. Now, so I mentioned a moment ago there are 7 different triggers total, but if you imagine every personality has a primary and a secondary, that means there are 49. So it's 7 times 7. Now, you don't need to learn all 49, of course. You, you need to know yourself so that you can understand very in-depth how the world sees you, so that you can understand the signals that you're unconsciously giving off every time you open your mouth to speak. You need to know the pitfalls of your own personality archetypes so that you can see where you're potentially getting in your own way and stepping on feet without even realizing it. But otherwise, you can just very simply understand the main categories. Each of the 49 different archetypes has a different style of selling, of communicating, of persuading, and they each have a specific competitive edge. Each one of them is really good. They have a strong suit that's different than everybody else. Strengths. And so if you understand your strong suit, you know, what's— when you're playing at your best, what is it that you're doing that's able to beat anybody else as long as you focus on that forte of yours? When you understand this, then you can see everybody on your team has a different advantage. Every one of your clients has a different advantage. And when you can identify that, then you can use it and you can apply it. This is where your business starts to really grow around your authentic strengths instead of you struggling day by day.

Now some people listening are going to be familiar with personality assessment tools, the old Performax, Driver Analytical Expressive, I forget what the fourth one was, the Kolbe assessment.

Strengths Finder, Myers-Briggs is a big one, right?

There you go, yeah. So what's the difference here?

Those tests measure how you see the world. I measure how the world sees you, and here's the difference. It's a good metric to have how you see the world. That's a really good thing for you to know if you live on a desert island. If you live on a desert island and you don't actually have to persuade anybody or captivate them so they listen to you long enough to finish your pitch, then it's great to know how you see the world.. But in a competitive and distracting environment, that's not the most important thing to know. Today, you need to know how the world sees you, but there's never been a way to measure that before because we've been so focused on creating personality tests around psychology and how we see the world that we never thought to flip it to the other side. So I took marketing, and instead of just focusing on companies and how companies communicate themselves to audiences, I started studying, well, how do these principles apply to us as individuals? How do we know how the world sees us? By measuring this, we can begin to identify really specific patterns. After looking at 140,000 people, many of them salespeople, many of them leaders, that's how we begin to articulate how you're most likely to succeed and how you're most likely to fail.

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