Inside a YouTuber Success Story: Ali Abdaal’s Journey From Medicine to Mastery

The word productivity didn't really come into it until I just kept seeing that word in the comments being like, oh, you're so productive, you're so productive. How are you so productive? I was like, yeah, you know, I guess I am productive. You know, I was a medical student building a YouTube channel, had a bit of a business on the side. And when I started making videos about productivity and like my productivity desk setup rather than my gaming desk setup, those started to take off. And eventually people started calling me a productivity guru. I was like, damn, that's interesting.

I'm a guru.

I'm a guru. Yeah. I'm like, I'm like that scammer Russell Brunson guy.

In the last decade, I went from being a startup entrepreneur to selling over $1 billion of my own products and services online. This show's going to show you how to start, grow, and scale a business online. My name is Russell Brunson and welcome to the Marketing Secrets Podcast. What's up everybody? Welcome back to the Marketing Secrets Podcast. Today I've got a super cool guest. We just finished the interview. And so I got a lot of insane value for myself out of it. He is someone who is one of the biggest YouTube experts in the world and probably the biggest productivity expert in the world right now. His name's Ali Abdaal. And what's fascinating about him is his story. He started reading my emails back when he was 13 years old. Then he went and became a medical doctor and now he's a productivity expert on YouTube and it's just a fascinating story. During this interview, he goes deep into a whole bunch of ways on like actually how to structure your videos, your content, how to set up your filming days. A whole bunch of really, really powerful things, things to tell yourself before you film any video to make sure the video is going to be great. And we had some really cool philosophy, like philosophy conversations as well about life and about business and about everything. So I hope you enjoy this interview. It was really, really fun to do. So that said, let's jump right into the podcast. All right, everyone, I'm excited to be here today with Ali Abdaal. And you're in Boise, Idaho. First off, like, why in the world are you in Boise?

Yeah, Boise, Idaho is kind of a random place. I'm here to speak at the ConvertKit Craft and Commerce conference thing. Thing. And then randomly I met someone called Molly at like another conference where I was speaking at AdCon in London. And she mentioned she lives in Boise. I was like, this is like the second time I'm hearing of Boise, Idaho. And she mentioned that you live in Boise. I was like, what? Russell Brunson lives in Boise, Idaho? Like, what is this Boise, Idaho place? So now we're here and we're meeting in Boise. Yeah.

What do you think about it so far? Is it—

It's so nice. The weather's been amazing. I've been— because of the London to here jet lag, I've been waking up at like 5 AM. And going for a walk in like the, one of the parks by Boise State University and like walking along the river. It's just so nice. It's a good place to be.

It's so cool. Okay. So to kick this off though, I want, I want to tell a story I think will be fun and then we'll get into some more questions I have for you specifically. But, um, so I first bumped into your world on YouTube, started watching your videos. I love what you're doing and like just kind of connected that with that way through you. And then I think last year, um, or were my tears. I can't remember. I messaged you about potentially speaking at one of our events and you wrote back and you're like, oh my gosh, I read your book. Which, you know, I was like, oh my, this is super exciting for me, right? And then after that, it seemed like every like 3 or 4 months after that, I started getting random texts from people. In fact, I pulled one up today from people who saw you speaking somewhere and in the video, if I can pull one up real quick, it makes me laugh because, oh yeah, okay, I'm gonna show this one. This is from AdCon last week. So I'll just play the clip and we'll show it and then you guys will talk about it.

So here you go. And so I had a chat with my CEO coach a couple of years ago and he was like, I was like, yeah, I don't feel like I know very much about marketing. He was like, well, have you read Russell Brunson's books? I was like, well, that scammer? No, of course not. And he was like, bro, and he took off his bookshelf the 4 books that Russell Brunson's written and said, these are gold, read these right now. And I read them and I was like, holy shit. Oh, okay. So we've been making shit up as we went along because I'm good at making YouTube videos. Years, but today I suck at business because I didn't know what a funnel was. I didn't know what an upsell was. I didn't know what an order bump was. I didn't know what copywriting was. I thought it was copyright, like the legal version of copyright.

I'll stop it there. But it's funny because like the text comes in like, hey, this guy named Ollie's talking about you on stage. Oh man, he called you a scammer. And the next day, oh, but aside, you're not really good. It's like, it's so funny. So I want to— before we start filming, we talked about this. So you said you got on my list When you were 13 years old?

It was literally ages ago. When I was like 12, 13, I was trying to get into the world of like making money on the internet. And I came across like affiliate marketing as a thing. This would have been in like 2007, '08 time. I'd have been 27, you were 13. That's crazy. And I remember I signed up to your email list. I signed up to Neil Patel's email list. And there were a few other, there were a couple of other people. Trade Doubler was a thing at the time. There was like ClickBank. And there was—

ClickBank is also in Boise, by the way.

Oh, are they? Yeah.

So there you go.

Boise. And so I was getting these emails. And I remember that was like back when you had to have an invite to have a Gmail account. And so I would just keep on getting these emails from Russell Brunson. And the emails were always like, I don't even remember, but at some point I decided that like, oh, this guy's a scammer. Like, it's like a scam thing. And I didn't really think anything of it. And then I would hear your name come up like over the next like 17 years occasionally. And I would just associate it with those emails that I got when I was 13 years old and think, ah, whatever.

And I was 27 years old at the time. So it probably were more scammy because I don't know, I was just learning this game too back then.

And then you had this conversation with my CEO coach like 2 years ago, we were talking about what are the areas in the business that I need to improve on to level up as a leader.. And I realized I knew nothing about sales and marketing because I'd never read a book about sales and marketing. And he busted out your books. And I was like, wait a minute, Russell Brunson, that guy whose email list I've been on since the age of 13? Like, what the fuck? And so I think it was in December of 2022 when I read Dotcom Secrets for the first time. And just my mind was just blown wide open. I was like, oh my God, like, I've been trying to sell stuff on the internet for like 10 years at this point. I've never once read a book about sales and marketing. This is why our sort of my first business stalled because I just didn't know that you could actually make money by like advertising things and having a funnel and doing an upsell. And it was like I got a firmware update in my mind of, oh, there's all this new stuff that I never knew anything about. And so I read Dotcom Secrets. I read Copywriting Secrets by your friend Jim, who I had a Zoom call with a few weeks ago randomly. He gave me some good advice. And I read $100 Million Offers by Hormozi, who is also one of your former students. And we applied all of the step-by-step method in DotCom Secrets and $100 Million Offers and Copywriting Secrets. And previously our YouTuber Academy launches were doing like $400K revenue and our next one did $2 million revenue, like $1.95 or something. And now I'm like an evangelist for DotCom Secrets, Copywriting Secrets, and $100 Million Offers. So thank you for writing those books.

Well, thank you for, uh, for reading them and applying them. That makes my, makes my day. So, um, cool. So I'm going to go into your story then. I want to start back because you're 13 years old. I know, We'll jump in the timeline for— but you, you become a doctor. But before that, like, 13 years old, what were you doing? Because you weren't— were you thinking about— yeah, I wasn't—

I was in school and, um, I was trying to make money so that I could buy and buy myself a laptop and then get an extra screen. Then my— and then my brother got into sort of trying to make money online. And the way we were sort of like, uh, measuring our sort of success was, man, if I could make £300 or like $400 this year, I can afford another monitor. And then maybe 5 years from now, I'll be able to have a 3-monitor desk setup. So I saw you have a 3-monitor desk setup. I was very excited about that. So I was doing like freelance web development and web design, kind of aged 13 to 17-ish. And then every year I was trying to launch a new business idea. I tried a forum to help teenagers learn how— learn like secret spy skills, like lockpicking and hacking and stuff that completely flopped. I tried an MLM, pyramid marketing type thing, where I would get people to sign up for free trials of Blockbuster Video and then refer their friends. And then if you refer 25 people, you'll win an Xbox 360. So I made about £50 through that. I remember those offers. I tried building a game. That was really hard. Like an online role-playing text-based game.

Were you a coder? Like you were coding it or just outsourcing it?

No, I was trying to code it myself and I was like 15 and I knew nothing about coding. So I was reading tutorials and there were like books back in the day that would teach you how to code because there wasn't that much of an online coding tutorial ecosystem. And then randomly at the age of like 18, just as in my summer before medical school, I ended up getting scammed out of my life savings because I tried buying a MacBook Air from some dude off Craigslist and he ended up selling me a defunct model. And so I, I'd, I'd been painstakingly trying to earn this like £1,000 that I got through like private tutoring and through like this web design stuff. And I lost all of that overnight. And I was like, okay, I need a way of recouping this money. So I made an Evernote doc back in 2012, which I still have, which says, all right, how do I make money? What am I good at? I thought, well, I'm good at teaching things because I think I'm a reasonable teacher. I got into med school and did well in the exams and I'm good at making websites. So I was like, okay, what if I start a business that combines teaching, making websites? I was like, okay, cool. So I'm going to teach courses, teaching people how to get into med school and build a website that like advertises those courses.. And so that year I taught physical real-life classroom courses at the age of 18, going to random hotel conference rooms up and down the UK, teaching kids how to get into med school. And I did that for like 5 years. And so while I was in med school, you know, first year we did like $10K revenue, next year we did like $80K, then we did $150K, and we kind of stalled at $150K revenue. And $150K revenue, I was doing like $40K profit, $50K profit, which in the UK is how much a doctor earns full-time. So when I was in med school, I felt really rich because I was like, earning $40K a year.

This is like they're paying to come to these events or the events you would, uh, you would sell a course or how did—

Yeah. So I would, uh, it would be like a one-day course, like, hey, you sign up to the BMAT crash course. There's this like medical exam. And so I'd show up to that with like 30 booklets printed that I wrote and got printed and bound. And I would be at the front of the classroom teaching a course with a whiteboard of how to do, how to think about critical thinking questions and the math questions and stuff. And so 5 years into this, we saw our revenue sort of stalled at 150. Um, and I thought, you know what, I need more people to buy my stuff. So if I make YouTube videos and if I teach people how to get into med school, maybe some percentage of people will think I'm legit and they'll then sign up to my physical classroom course and rock up to an event space in London where I'm going to teach the thing. And I now know this is called organic content marketing, but I had no idea that that was a thing back in the day. I just decided to start my YouTube channel based on that.

How many years ago was that then?

That was in 2017. So 7 years ago now. And then I ended up selling that business 2 years later for very little money and just focusing all in on the YouTube stuff.

Yeah. So cool. And then how long of a season were you doing medical school and did you practice as a doctor?

What happened? Yeah. So I started my YouTube channel in 2017. That was in my final year of med school. So I did 1 year of med school, then 2 years of practicing as a doctor. And then 2020 pandemic hit. And I sort of, I intended to go to Australia to do some emergency medicine and stuff, but they closed their borders. And so I accidentally ended up becoming a full-time YouTuber.. And that was when loads of people kept asking in the comments like, hey, how did, how did you grow this YouTube channel? Because I had like a million subscribers at that time. And I thought, okay, why don't I make a course? And that was how I got into sort of the course creation world, the info business. Initially it was going to be like a $200 thing because I had so much imposter syndrome. I was like, I've only got 1.2 million subscribers. What the hell do I have to teach? You know? Um, and then some friends, Tiago Forte and David Perel, who run live cohort courses said, What if you charge $2,000? I was like, oh, I've never charged $2,000 for anything and had all this fear. And then I took their advice. I charged the $2,000. And basically in a week, we expected like 12 people to sign up for like a beta testing cohort. In the end, like 350 people signed up and we made like $250,000 in a week, which was, which would have been 5 years worth of salary working full-time as a doctor in the UK.

And I was like, oh, I see it now.

I see it now. And then it took another 2 years to discover DotCom Secrets and realize, oh, okay, there's more efficient ways to sell this course.

That's cool. So when you— the transition from you teaching the medical, like how to get into medical school to doing what you do now, was it the same YouTube channel you kind of transitioned or is it like you stopped and started over?

No, it was the same YouTube channel. So I remember having this debate with myself back in the day where I was— because my company was called 6Med, 6-M-E-D. I thought, do I want to start a YouTube channel under the brand name or under my personal name? And I watched and read a load of stuff about this. And basically the consensus was people follow individuals rather than brands. So I thought, okay, cool. Let me just put it under my own name. So the early videos on the channel actually are me trying to sing songs because I thought I was going to be a music YouTuber back in the day.

I realized— They're still there if you scroll back. They're still there.

Oh, that's amazing.

And yeah, we should insert some right now.

Yeah, well, one of them I even unlisted. It was me trying to sing Thinking Out Loud by Ed Sheeran. And it got 3 dislikes and 1 like. Back in like 2016, I was like, okay, I'm not meant for this. I only actually republished it on the channel like a couple of weeks ago when I felt sufficiently confident.

I've had success now.

Yeah, I'm like, okay, I can show my failures. So initially the videos were about how to get the music stuff, and then I started doing this med school stuff. And then very quickly I sort of realized that, you know, the audience is growing. Each day I'm getting 1 or 2 new subscribers. People are asking me for not just how to get into med school, but also how I study for my exams. And oh, they've seen that I take notes on an iPad, so let me talk about that. Oh, they've seen that, you know, I seem to have good work-life balance. Let me talk about that. And by just following what people wanted from me, my channel then sort of evolved away from just helping kids get into med school and more towards generally advice for students and then advice for life. But I also had in the back of my, in the back of my mind almost from day one that if I wanna take YouTube seriously, I can't only make videos aimed at students because I will age out of that very quickly. And I tried to figure out, okay, what would, what does longevity look like on YouTube? 'Cause most YouTubers don't have a lot of longevity. Like most YouTubers who are big today weren't big 10 years ago. Except in a couple of niches. In the niche of tech, for example, the tech YouTubers who are big today, MKBHD, iJustine, Linus Tech Tips, they were all big 10 years ago. So it seems like in tech and in certain other niches, getting older actually gives you more authority rather than less. Whereas lifestyle YouTubers, you know, they have a sell-by date. Student YouTubers, they have a sell-by date. So I was like, I need to get out of the student market ASAP and move more towards things that I can see myself doing for the long term, which is how I ended up accidentally becoming a productivity guru.

Was there ever like a conscious thing like productivity is going to be the thing or just it morphed?

It sort of morphed. Um, the word productivity didn't really come into, into it until I just, I just kept seeing that word in the comments being like, oh, you're so productive, you're so productive. How are you so productive? I was like, yeah, you know, I guess I am productive. You know, I was a medical student building a YouTube channel, a bit, had a bit of a business on the side. And when I started making videos about productivity and like my productivity desk setup rather than my gaming desk setup, Those started to take off and eventually people started calling me a productivity guru.

I was like, damn, that's interesting.

I'm a guru. I'm a guru. Yeah. I'm like, I'm like that scammer Russell Brunson guy. And I ended up being this productivity guru. And then like a few years later, a publisher approached me to write a book. They were like, well, you know, you're a productivity expert, so you should write about productivity. I was like, I'm a productivity expert. Really? Okay. So if you say so.

And now— Isn't it fascinating how you view yourself versus how the market views yourself? I've had similar things in my career where it's just like, I had no idea that's how people perceived me.

Yeah.

What was that like for you? Like, well, being a scammer, apparently. No, just kidding. But I think for me it was like, it's similar. Like, it's shifted over the years. The most recent one more so. It's like people that join my inner circle now, it's fascinating because I always think they're coming to me because they want funnels and marketing and stuff. And they do. That's like the gateway that gets them in. But then we do open Q&As, our big events and stuff like that. No one ever asked me a marketing question, ever. It's always something like lifestyle. How do you have a family? How are you doing? How do you have a family and a marriage and a business? Like, how do you do that? Those are all things people want to know is like the thing behind the thing and not the thing. Does that make sense? Like, always fascinates me and like the videos I do or stuff I talk more about that those ones do better than like, let me show you how to sell 1,000 copies of your book a day. You know, like, it's just fascinating.

Yeah, I was thinking about this in the car ride on the way here around how I think when gurus are like smaller, the advice has to be very tactical. Whereas like, as you get bigger and more successful, actually the advice becomes less about the tactics and much more about the philosophies. Like now, if I watch your stuff, I care a lot more personally about how you're managing all of this, work-life balance and all this sort of stuff. Because you've got that success now that I just trust that, okay, you can now give me life advice, not just business advice. And I'm finding it for myself now when I give talks, I'm still in tactical mode and people like the tactical stuff. But then when I take a step back and start philosophizing, then people really hang on to my words. And I'm like, holy fuck, I can now talk about— I'm a philosopher. I'm a philosopher. I'm a philosopher guru. I can now talk about like bigger picture things and people are listening now. Yeah. Whereas if you're a YouTuber with like 3 subscribers and you start trying to give people life advice, it's like it's not really going to land. You kind of have to tell people how to use ClickFunnels and then that gets you a certain base and now you can start giving life advice.

It's interesting too, because like, I'm sure you've heard the phrase like you never want to meet your heroes in life. And I think it's— I think this is why this happens is like a lot of times you'll find somebody who you connect with them on, on one part of like something they value, right? It's like productivity or marketing and like, and then you follow a person, they become your, your hero, you look up to them. And then the problem is like everyone's got multiple values. And when you meet the person, if you have values that don't align, that's when people freak out and they're like, oh, you know, it's interesting. So I think, yeah, because like some of my— like even my— like Dan Kennedy, he's my first mentor. I bought his company. Like, I love the guy. We like, we align on the business values so, so strong. But then other values in life, we do not connect at all. But I have to like love him for the values we share and not dislike him for the values we don't share. But most people struggle with that, you know what I mean? And so it's like the one— and the scarier thing, because you'll start seeing that as you start getting you know, you know this, but for people listening, like you start getting bigger and more people start following you, they start wanting all these other things. And that's where a lot of hate starts coming. It's like, oh, well, I followed you for funnels, but I didn't know that you believe this. So you did. And it's like this weird, this weird thing. So it's kind of a double-edged sword sometimes.

Yeah. I find it, I find it really hard to figure out. So for example, I attended a couple of Tony Robbins events last year and I thought they were phenomenal. And I mentioned it in my newsletter and I had so many responses being like, I can't believe you're promoting Tony Robbins. I was like, what? And then I Googled it and watched a bunch of YouTube videos. I was like, oh, okay, Tony Robbins had all this stuff about him that I just had no idea of. But I still got loads of value from the events. And even mentioning it now, there's part of me that's like, uh-oh, people are going to watch this and think— and it's like this thing around like, I think that people expect that if you're like recommending someone's stuff that you also then endorse literally everything they've ever done and will ever do. Yeah. And especially if someone has a very long career, it's like, you know, it's— yeah, like, you're probably not massively proud of the stuff you did at age 27 in terms of emails. Yeah, please delete those. Yeah. So I don't know, I think, I think it's a tricky one.

Yeah, definitely. Um, interesting. So what was like the first— I don't know, did you have a video like pop? There's first one like took off that, you know, like, you know what I'm talking about? Like, was there something that was like, you're doing stuff and all of a sudden something hit and it's like, oh my gosh. Like, for me, I had certain funnels where like I was struggling and one hit where it's like, oh my gosh, that was the thing that changed the career and changed the trajectory. Was there a certain video or something that hit for you?

There actually was. And I'm sort of still somewhat proud of myself that this was vaguely intentional. So in my third year of uni, this was like 2015, way before I started the YouTube channel. I got really into the science of effective learning and like how to study for exams in an effective or productive way. Although I didn't use the word productive. You gotta use that word now. I know, I've gotta start using that word. And I decided to just hold a talk at like, I was part of the Islamic Society. And so there was a prayer room that would hold like 10 people. And I said, hey, I'm gonna do a talk for the students in the year below teaching you how to study for your exams effectively. Cause I was into this stuff. And I created a Facebook event and that Facebook event went viral. Around the university and it got like 28,000 impressions and like 3,000 people clicked attending on this event in this tiny-ass prayer room at Cambridge, which is the university I went to. So we had to then hire a bigger lecture theater and stuff. And a few hundred people showed up for this talk. And I just gave a talk about how to study for exams. And people were like, oh my God, like, this is amazing. No one's ever told me this before. So then like 3 years later, when I decided to start my YouTube channel, I had in the back of my mind, I want to make a banger video about how to study for exams. Effectively. But it cannot be video number 1 because I don't know how to make videos. I'm going to make 100 videos and then this is going to be video number 100. And hopefully in that time, I'll get good at the craft of making videos. In the end, that video ended up being like video number 81. And around that same time, I had landed a collab with this other bigger YouTuber. And I was like, okay, the stars have aligned. I've got this collab with this bigger YouTuber. I've got this video in my back pocket where I know I've validated demand for this idea because The Facebook event went viral and people loved it. So let me pull out all the stops. So I didn't rock up to my medical school placements for like a week, just working on this one video thinking, okay, this is my chance to go viral. And that video went viral and it's now got like 8 million views or something like that. And that was the thing where I was like, oh, okay, now we've got trajectory here. That was one video that took off. The second video that took off was also a little bit intentional in that this was around video number 100. I'd seen a video on YouTube called, titled something like, how I take notes on my iPad Pro as an engineer. And that video had 2 million views. And that channel had like 100,000 subscribers. I was like, huh, it's weird for a channel with 100,000 subscribers to have 2 million views. So something about this topic is interesting. And I thought, I mean, I've got an iPad Pro. What if I do a video called how I take notes on my iPad Pro as a medical student? Let's see what happens. And then boom, that video went viral. And now this is a strategy we teach in our YouTuber Academy, viral replication. The easiest way to go viral is to do your own take on something that has already gone viral. So instead of engineer student, I was like, you know, being a medical student is more cool. No offense to any engineers. So let me just do that video in my own way. And that video went viral. And so we've tried to, I mean, it's not a 100% success rate strategy, obviously. But our first two big hits were actually those intentional approach to viral videos. That's really fascinating.

Um, so I'm gonna walk through your process.

So I'm gonna get tactical for a minute and we'll come back to some philosophy. And then I have loads of questions for you. Cause I want to, I want to ask you questions about how do we scale from 5 to 10 million.

Oh, that part's easy. Funnels and ads. This organic thing is way more confusing for me. So obviously you've gone through this and you've, and you've been doing this channel for a long time, but you've also worked a lot of people who are starting channels. So for people who are listening who are like, okay, I want to, I want to do organic. I want to like, what are the first things they should be focusing on? Like, to, to actually start a YouTube channel, to get it kind of kicked off the ground, to get things happening? Because even for me, like, my biggest frustration was like, we talked about sort of like the ads are easy. I turn an ad and I get a million views, right? I post my first YouTube video, I get like 8 views and it's just like, oh, you know, and like, how do, what, what's the beginning phases and stages that someone should be thinking about as they're kind of jumping into it?

Yeah, that's a really good question. I think it sort of depends on what game you want to play, where we kind of go into, into two, two routes. Are we trying to play the famous game or are we trying to play the I want to make money game? So I guess with your audience, it's probably the make money game. They probably want to drive leads towards some sort of offer rather than trying to get famous, as it were. Now, the way that you get famous is by trying to make very broadly applicable viral videos that appeal to large amounts of people so that you get followers and stuff, like kind of like the MrBeast approach. It's a very different approach to YouTube than what I do, for example. What I would generally recommend, and it sort of comes down to basic marketing stuff, which you talk about in your books as well, is figure out who's the target avatar, figure out what's the value proposition, figure out what are their pain points, and then figure out what's the free content I can make that targets those pain points, which then ideally directs people to my funnel.

It brings it back to your solution.

Yeah, it's just like, I think the YouTubers I know who have the most fun are the ones who are not trying to make money from YouTube. They're the ones who are using YouTube as lead generation for their own products, their own offers, their own funnels. I know YouTubers with millions of subscribers who make, you know, $100 grand from a sponsored video, but that video has to get 2 million views. Otherwise, the sponsor is going to reduce their rates and then they won't be able to pay their team. And so there's all this pressure of like, every video has to get at least a million views. That is so hard to do. It's so hard to get everybody to get at least a million views. Becomes harder every year because every year there's more people on the platform, things become more saturated and more competitive. I think it's so much nicer for people in our sort of space if you've got your offer and you're using YouTube to drive leads for that offer.

Definitely. Um, do you— and let me think, you're not doing any paid strategies on your channel, right? Um, I'm asking because like when I first launched YouTube, we had our YouTube organic and then we were buying ads on the same channel and it jacked up all of our videos. And so someone told us like, don't run ads on the same channel you're running content on. So we pull it off and separate it because it was somehow messing up the algorithm where none of our organic stuff would work anymore.

Yeah, so we don't do it, but I know a couple of people who do and they swear by it. So I know like 3 YouTubers who have like 2 million plus subscribers who all run ads to their own videos and they say it's been really, really good. I'm still scared to do it because I don't want to fuck up our crown jewel, which is our YouTube channel. And I gave a talk at Google a few weeks ago and I spoke to our YouTube channel manager who you know, asked this question. And what she said is she said that right now, the organic algorithm and the paid algorithm are completely separate. So in theory, if you run ads to a YouTube channel, it shouldn't screw up organic, but I'm still so scared to do it because I don't want to get burned by like my channel suddenly dying and be like, oh my goodness, I've killed the goose. Yeah, that's the one. Actually, on that note, we literally call the YouTube channel our goose. And so we have like a goose system, which is sort of like our process for creating YouTube videos. And one of the big things that my team optimizes for is, you know, we sort of think of me and the YouTube channel as sort of the goose. We're like, we collectively, me and the YouTube channel, are the goose that lays the golden eggs. And we want to make sure the goose is happy. And so it's about getting that balance between making sure that I'm making videos that I feel proud of. And that's stuff I want to make content about, not just the stuff that will work or will go viral. And I think there's always this interesting balance between the soul of the content and the statistics of the content. If every video becomes, is like clickbait title, like listicle, trying to drive growth and engagement, it starts to lose a little bit of personality. And I think personality and a lot of the feel-good factor of a YouTube channel comes from the under-optimized stuff. So yesterday while walking around the local park in Boise, I decided to film a video using my little handheld DJI Pocket camera, and it ended up being a half an hour video about, you know, my advice to someone who's dealing with perfectionism. Now, that's a pretty under-optimized video, but we're going to put it out on the channel anyway because we know that it adds a dose of soul, and plus I felt good filming the video. So we're always kind of doing this balancing act between the enjoyment of the process and kind of doing the thing that we think will work. And sometimes a video that I would have had no idea would do well, ends up doing really well and people really connect to it. So I think, yeah, it's always this interesting balancing act between like the stats and the soul.

I've had that issue with ours because in the past we've had some channel managers for us who are doing stuff and they're like, same thing, they're finding videos that are going viral and sending me and the ones they always send me, the ones they were sending me were always like the scammy ones, like, I made $1 million in 25 seconds. I'm like, they make one like this, it'll go viral. I'm like, I don't want to make that video. That video sounds like, like, you know what I mean? That was the hardest thing. And then I'd create stuff I wanted to, and then I— and it was tough because like they don't get as many views, but it's like, this is what I actually want to talk about, this is what's important to me. And so I've definitely struggled with that, like trying to know like how do you— yeah, like the ratio even, or—

yeah, it really is a balancing act. I think, I think also in our sort of space, um, if there's, there's optimizing for views and then there's optimizing for the right sort of views So Hormozy found this with their content recently when, you know, they did very broad clickbaity stuff. They would get more views, but those weren't business owners. They wanted to attract business owners. And I stopped watching Hormozy's content a few months ago because it was just like, it's not for me.

It's showing all his weightlifting stuff.

Yeah, all of that random stuff. Whereas like 2 weeks ago they switched to pure business stuff. And now I'm a Hormozy fan again and I'm watching everything. I'm listening to it at double speed. I'm sending it to my team. And they've realized that by under-optimizing their view count, they're actually getting the right sort of views. And so I think if you're optimizing for just views, you end up doing how to make your first $10K a month as a teenager type content, which is going to get millions of views just because teenagers. But if you're trying to target people who are like 7-figure business owners trying to go to 8 or 9, there's way less of them. But they're also the sorts of people that would go to your inner circle, for example. So it's a balancing act.

Now, do you, when you, after you post a video, do you do any kind of promotional things, or do you just post it and let the algorithm do the work?

What's that part of it look like for you? Yeah, we pretty much just let the algorithm do the work. We have tried all sorts of things. We have never seen any transformation of like any sort of movement from viewers from any social platform to YouTube. We've, it's all roads have just led to just focus on making a really good video and let the algorithm take care of it. Because the algorithm is really good. It is very good at finding the right person.

It's so frustrating. I'm like, we could, like, I want to send emails and text messages and like, how do we blow? So proud of the video. I want everyone to see it. But like, the times we've tried stuff, it hasn't worked. I'm like, I'm hoping there's some secret you got.

There was this YouTubers conference I went to in like Valencia, like a couple of years ago. And I was sitting on the plane. I was sitting next to a guy who had like 20 million subscribers, who was a gaming YouTuber, who was doing daily content for like 10 years. And was like a deca-millionaire from these gaming videos. And I was just sort of like mining him for advice. It's like, you know, how often do you sit next to a guy with 20 million subscribers? And he said that the way he thinks about the content is, I'm not making a video for my subscribers right now. I'm making a video for the person 3 years from now who has no idea who I am and who will see this on their homepage. And so that's his mindset when creating the content. And I thought that was really nice because when we think about, well, when I think about, oh, how do I make a video for my audience right now? I'm actually just kind of blink. I then sort of think, well, I can't repeat myself. I can't, well, I made a video about that like in 2019. And so maybe my fans, my audience will know that I made that video in 2019. Like on average, an average viewer on my channel watches like 3 videos. I've made 900 videos. And so by switching that mindset from views right now to I'm optimizing for the 3-year long tail view count of this video in the hope that the right sorts of people find it and get value from it and maybe go into one of my funnels. That to me takes a lot of the pressure off the how many views did it get in the last 7 days.

That's really interesting.

Hmm. Yeah.

I was gonna ask you about like how you get content ideas and stuff, but that's a big thing because I was, I'm very similar. Like I've said this story 3 times. I never want to talk about it again, but you could bring it back.

Yeah. I mean, I think we all, we all can repeat ourselves way more than we already, way more than we do. Especially like, so I would ask you, who are the sorts of people you're trying to attract for your YouTube channel?

For me, it's people who are in business. Like, I don't want the beginner beginners. There's too much, you know, I realized they bought someone else's course, they figured out, they did the first thing, they got something to sell. And the next phase is like, well, I like it where it's like kind of like you, like you come in, it's like, I've got something to make some money. Like, cool. We can turn that, we can light on fire. Let's build a funnel, drive some traffic. And like, you know, like, so those are ideal people. They have a business, but not, you know, I'd say they're probably like 6 figures and below. Like, that, that window is like where I want to find people because then we can take them in.

Okay.

It's easier to take someone from good to great than from nothing to good, you know what I mean?

Sure. It's like someone has— so you want someone who's doing like at least $10K a month in revenue or like $5K a month or something like that? Anywhere in that window is great. Yeah. Nice. Yeah. So Yeah, I think then the, when it, yeah, when it comes to ideas, trying to optimize for views will take you towards the beginner camp, which is not where you want to be.

It's all the biz op ones. Scammy ones. Like, hey, make a video like this.

Like, no, I don't want to. So I've been sort of on and off tracking your YouTube channel recently because it's like, oh, Russell Brunson's taking YouTube seriously. This is interesting to see what happens. And you've done a few videos that are like 7 ways to make your first $10K online type stuff. Stuff. And I'm not going to click on them, like whatevs. But I can't remember, I think it was about a year ago, there was some more philosophical stuff that I felt was really targeted at me as a business owner. And that like made me have so much goodwill towards you. I was like, oh man, this Russell guy is so cool. Of course I read his book. I thought the book was sick. But now seeing you on video helped me build that parasocial relationship with you where now I feel a bit starstruck, like coming here and being like, oh shit, hanging out with Russell Brunson. And that video almost certainly has fewer views than your beginner-y aimed ones. So I think the thing I would encourage you for whatever it's worth is keep your target audience in mind and do stuff for them and don't think so hard about the views.

Yeah. Okay.

That gives me really excited. I think also the nice thing is the algorithm is so good. Like when, if you only made content aimed at people already doing 10K a month and trying to get them to 7 figures or 8 or 6 or 7 or 8 figures or whatever the thing might be, The algorithm would then find other people who are like them. But if you then do videos aimed at complete beginners, the algorithm is going to be kind of a bit confused, like, oh, okay. And now the channel is going to lose some of its traction. And it's sort of like in the short term, you have to be totally okay with just sticking to your lane in terms of your target audience and just making stuff that's really applicable to them. And what I've seen with a bunch of my YouTuber friends is like the video gets no views, no views, no views. A year later suddenly starts to take off because now the algorithm has enough data to realize, oh, this is the sort of person who this sort of video is appealing to. And then the channel really starts to grow, but it's really playing the long game.

Yeah. Interesting. So you see, you're doing 900 videos for your channel?

Something like that. Yeah. Of which like 700 are probably long form and 200 are probably shorts. Yeah.

So what's your publishing schedule? Like how often do you, do you post it?

Yeah. So we film once a week and we publish like twice a week. Okay. So on each filming day, I aim to film at least 2 videos. But last week I actually filmed 5 because I realized I could just lower the bar and talk about stuff without feeling as if I had to prepare so hard for it. So now I'm excited to aim to film 5 videos each filming session.

Okay, so to do that, are you doing like the rest of the week, you're doing prep work for it, or you just kind of like how much, what's it look like? Give us a week in your life from the YouTube business. I want to see how, because I'm still trying to figure out how to optimize it. For me, it's very much like hit and go where I'll do a bunch of videos and like for 4 weeks I don't do anything, then the team's freaking out like, they're out of videos. I'm like, ah, and I gotta quick be creative, you know, and like I haven't figured out the cadence yet to make it consistent.

Nice. Yeah. So we've run the whole gamut on trying to find a process that works for this whole thing with like too many team members, too few team members, just me, like the whole shebang. The thing we've landed on is one filming day every week where it's just all day. So my producer Tintin will rock up at 9 AM with a coffee for me and then we'll chat a little bit and he'll tell me, okay, Ali, the first video we're filming today is, you know, the title is my honest advice for someone who wants to grow on YouTube. That's the video. And then I'll think, okay, cool. What do I want to do this video about? And then I'll come up with 3 or 4 bullet points and we'll film that video.

So you're thinking, so you're not pre, it's all happening in the filming day.

Yeah. So we actually have like a whole 5-level process for this. It's kind of niche, but sure. So level, a level 1 video is one where I just get given the title by my team because I don't like thinking about titles because it's like, That's the clickbaity side where I'm like, okay, I just get given the title and I'm just going to hit record and just speak. So actually my highest performing video of this year was one of those. It was completely randomly. A level 2 video is one where I get given a title and then I think about it for 10 minutes and write down 3 to 5 bullet points. My whole shtick these days is I only need to say 3 things in the video. If I say more than 3 things, the video gets really long. It becomes overwhelming. People can't retain it. So I'm just going to say 3 to 5 things. A level 3 video is where we've got a title and we're like, okay, you know, 5 steps to become— becoming more disciplined. I'm like, okay, well, I can think of 5 things, but actually for thing number 3 and 4, oh, there was that study that I came across a few years ago. Can we go and find that study that like backs up this point over there? And can we find that study that backs up that point? And then one of our researchers will— well, our one researcher on the team will go through and find that study and will like say, study from 2017, here's the link. Study from Harvard, here's what it found. Here's the graph.. So I'll have that in front of me when I'm filming the video to then be able to say, oh, this study found blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. A level 4 video is a video usually when I do a podcast. So what I would love to do with this conversation is we'll chop out soundbites of you saying stuff, and then the team will construct like a video based on those soundbites. So a cool example of this is I interviewed a professor of circadian biology at Oxford, a few years ago, Professor Russell Foster. He's written a book about circadian science. That was a 3-hour-long interview. No one cares. It got like 20,000 views. But then we decided to take soundbites from that because he said some really good stuff and turned it into a main channel YouTube video where the title was Why You're Always Tired: 7 Myths Ruining Your Sleep. And that video's got like 7 million views. And it was just a 15-minute-long video with soundbites interspersed with me just explaining stuff throughout. That was really cool. That's a level 4 video. And a level 5 video is one that's fully scripted word for word where I read it off a teleprompter. I hate filming level 5 videos because I hate talking to a teleprompter. But most of our videos are like level 2 where I'll get given a title, we'll think about it. Sometimes my producer will give me a title that's a bit too clickbaity and I'll be like, oh no, you know, let's soften the title a little bit because I don't like it. It doesn't feel right.

Come up with 3 bullet points and I'll just speak from the heart and say the thing. That's amazing. You said, you talked about the podcast got 20,000 views and you said the other one you posted to the main channel.

Do you have different channels then? Yeah, so we had a different channel for the podcast and for the main. This was because I started my podcast 3 years ago. Uh, now YouTube has its own podcasting feature, so if I were to start a podcast today, I would put them on the same channel. Oh, assuming it's the same audience.

Same audience, same channel. Yeah, that's so cool. And then average length for most of your videos then?

Yes, our videos are kind of annoyingly long, like 25 minutes, 30 minutes, 35 minutes. One thing that I've been working with, uh, with, uh, working on with my CEO coach is to reduce that time. So an experiment we're doing for the month of June is what does it look like to do 15-minute-long videos and only film for like half an hour rather than filming for like 90 minutes, which is just a way heavier lift.

And I think you film 90 minutes to get a 30-minute thing.

Yeah. Or 90 minutes to get an hour-long thing or 90 minutes to get a 45-minute thing. A lot of our videos take 90 minutes to film, but they really don't need to. And I filmed two in the five that I filmed last week, two of them took under half an hour. And actually, one method that we found is quite interesting, which you might want to experiment with, is where my producer sits behind the camera and is just asking me questions. And it's like I'm being on a podcast. I don't know if you find this, but I find that when I'm on a podcast, I say good shit. Or if I'm on stage, I say stuff, I'm like, where did that come from?

That was interesting.

Or when you're scripted, it's like, uh, yeah, when I'm scripted, when I'm speaking to a camera, it takes the energy out of it. So we're trying to mimic the podcast format where he, Tintin, would ask me, okay, Ali, why is discipline really important? I would say, okay, so discipline is really important because blah, blah, blah. And I would come out with some good stuff and he'd be like, okay, what is your best tip for someone who's really struggling with discipline? Okay, so if you're really struggling with discipline, my best tip is gonna be to whatever. And so he hits sort of like an interview and then obviously we cut out the questions. You restate the questions so you can cut it out. Yeah, exactly. And then it comes across, it comes out as a really nice video. It's more targeted because he's asking me the questions and keeping my answers in mind. He's thinking like the audience. He's like, okay, what if someone was watching this and they're 25 and they're super overwhelmed and they have a day job How would they apply this thing that you've just said? And I'm like, oh, interesting. I wouldn't have thought of that had he not asked the question. And so we're doing a bunch of videos in this Q&A format where it just feels as if I'm just speaking directly to the camera.

Yeah, that's really cool. Interesting. Do you do Reels as well? Are you using those at all on YouTube or not?

Yeah, so we do YouTube Shorts and also publish them on Instagram Reels. Oh, the names are different. Yeah. And then we also copy and paste them on TikTok. We've got a few different formats. One of them is where my team will give me a, just the hook, i.e., the first line. So for example, a team member will say to me, okay, Ali, this next video, the first line is, here are 3 books that will change how you think about money. I think about it, I'm like, here are 3 books that will change how you think about money. Firstly, Dotcom Secrets by Russell Brunson, amazing guy. Secondly, The Psychology of Money by Morgan Housel, amazing book about blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Thirdly, The 4-Hour Workweek by Tim Ferriss, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Check them out. That's a short. And we'll do 40 of those in like 2 hours and then boom, that's content for the next 3 months.

Okay. Huh. That's awesome, dude. This is like for me personally, because I'm like in the middle of trying to figure this out. All those things were so helpful. So thank you for that. Hopefully I can help you with your ads next.

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So now kind of step back from tactical and just strategic or more philosophy. Like, what is your, what's your long-term goal? Like, what is your vision? Like, what are you trying to I think everyone gets started like, I'm gonna create these things, but eventually you asked me the question backstage, like, you've got enough money now, what's like, why are you still doing this? I'm curious for you, like, you've got viewers, you got things happening, like, what's the long term, the plan for you more so?

Yeah, I think about this a lot, and I'd love to get your take on this, which is kind of why I asked you that question, because I'm always intrigued by people who are like further ahead of me on the journey that I'm on. It's like, what's driving them? Because One thing that I realized back when I was in med school is that when I looked at doctors who were 10 years ahead of me in their careers, they were all miserable. I was like, okay, I don't want to end up like that. But when I look at entrepreneurs who have good work-life balance and stuff who are 10 years ahead of me in their careers, they seem to be chilling and having a good time. So I'm like, oh, okay, that's interesting. Like, what can I learn from the people who are rich and seemingly happy, which you seem to fall into that camp, rather than the people who are rich and really miserable. So I think about it a lot. For me, it's a question I often ask myself is, is if I had $100 million in the bank, like, how would I, how would I spend my time? And what I land on is I'd still make YouTube videos because it's fun. I still write books every few years because it's fun. I probably wouldn't do online courses, but I would do stuff in real life. I really like events. I like the idea of doing like seminars and teaching people how to be more productive and plan their goals and stuff. So I do YouTube videos, I would do books, I would do events. And that to me is sort of like my infinite game.. And now when I wake up in the morning, I sort of remind myself that I actually do have enough money. I don't need to make more. I'm choosing to show up to work, to build cool products and make cool videos because it's, it's the thing that I would do even if I wasn't being paid for it. And so it's not really a, in, in that sense, it's more of a process goal, I guess. It's like, I just wanna be, be able to do more of this stuff. Then alongside this, like the game of entrepreneurship goal, like we did $5 million revenue last year. Why not? Let's go for $10 million. Because it'll just be kind of fun. But I feel like I'm quite non-attached to that goal. And so when I come to places like this where I meet someone like you, I'm like, okay, Russell, how do we get from $5 to $10 million? But that's just because it's like the game. You know, I'm playing Horizon Forbidden West on the PS5. I play on very hard difficulty because it's like, it's a good level of difficulty. Once I've done that, I might switch to ultra hard. So just sort of to me, it feels like playing the game of entrepreneurship. Yeah. Yeah.

I'm curious, what's it, what's it like for you? So for me, I couldn't explain it for a long time. And then I remember my first time I had a conversation with Tony Robbins, who we were talking about earlier. He, he told me like, because he's got a big business, he's got tons of big businesses. But he told me, he's like, he's like, I didn't— he's like, I don't consider myself an entrepreneur. He's like, I'm an artist and this is my art. But for me to do my art at the scale I want to do, he's like, I had to learn business and entrepreneurship so I can get my art out there. And I honestly, it's weird for me because a lot of people think I'm like very entrepreneurial and I am. But like for me, like entrepreneurship is my art. So like, you know, the reason I wrote my books is because like I wasn't just like, I'm going to make a lead magnet to sell this so I can sell ClickFunnels. It was like, no, I spent 20 years obsessed with funnels, looking at them, diagramming them, thinking about them, like doodling things out, like just became obsessed. And then like, The book was like, was like the art where it's like this, this chapter of my life. Now it's art that I can give to somebody, right? Expert Secrets, same way. I took all the stuff I learned about selling and storytelling and stuff like that and put it in a thing. Traffic Secrets, like all my things, it's always, it's art for me. And so for me, it's like I'm painting my next picture. Like what's the next thing of art I'm doing, right? ClickFunnels has been art, but it's been, you know, I've been a decade doing this. So like right now you saw a little, a little glimpse, but you know, I bought 18,000 books and manuscripts in the last 2 years, old first editions. And for me, it's like, like, this is my next art project I'm working on. And I don't know exactly what it's gonna look like yet, but there's something there and I'm gathering stuff and repurposing and changing. And like, there's something there and I'm trying to create the next art piece. And so that gets me excited. Like, there's this thing I'm painting. I don't even know what it looks like yet. Like, I've got some of it done, but a lot of it's still blurry. But I'm excited to see where it's gonna go. And so I think that's what gets me excited. And then the business around it's like just the way that I support, you know, I can monetize it. I can, you know, it helps me to buy really old expensive books and manuscripts, you know, stuff like that. It's like, it's like the necessary thing to make. And then eventually I want to like, when I discover what this art is looking like, I'm excited to share it and to talk about new events and seminars, you know, like the next phase. And so for me, it's just, it's a big art project.

So that's really fun. That's a really nice, wholesome way of looking at it. I've not thought of it in that framing before, but that also really resonates with me. I feel like for me, and I guess maybe similar to you, like my art is teaching. Whenever I, you know, I sometimes think of the question, what would I want written on my tombstone? And I always land on some combination of good father, good husband, and inspirational teacher. And it was actually doing that exercise back in 2019 that made me realize, oh, great doctor or like amazing surgeon just wasn't on that list. Huh, that's interesting. I care more about being a teacher than I do about being a doctor. And that was like the beginning of the end of my medical career. And I'm out. Yeah, it took me about 2 years to come to terms with that identity shift. And then I was really out. I really like that. So for you, it's like, it's an art project. The business is like a fun thing. You've got the team. It's in person. Yeah. You could probably be more efficient if you had remote employees, but it's just way more fun in this sort of format.

I get energy from people and all that kind of stuff. Yeah, for sure. That's super cool.

Anyway, interesting.

Actually, I don't know if Jake's still here. Jake's one of our designers, but he worked for like 5 years designing tombstones for people. So I've literally told him, I was like, one of your projects is you were going to design my— so I keep thinking about like What's going to be on my tombstone? What's going to look like? Like, because for me, it's like I have areas of my life, like father, husband, wrestler, you know, it's like I think about that way too much. It's like, how am I going to have Jake design my tombstone someday? So anyway, you can have him design yours too if you want.

For you, how much do you care about kind of legacy beyond your life versus just like focusing on doing cool stuff and being a good dad and good husband while you're alive?

Yeah. So for me, it's really, it's really big for a couple of reasons. I'm big into personality profiles and stuff and like If you do the— when you do a DISC profile, they have one called values or motivators. And my number one motivator is ROI, which I always thought meant like return on investment money, but it's not. It's like ROI on any situations. Like, it's why I struggled in school, like sitting in school, like what's the return? I can't understand like the return on this investment, right? Or things like that. And so for me, ROI is a big thing. And so honestly, the reason why I'm buying all these old books and manuscripts, like Napoleon Hill stuff and everything like that, is because I'm trying to figure out how to take their legacy because most authors die and then within the generation, they're forgotten forever, right? There's very few that live beyond it. And the ones who do usually through the written words, through books. And then there's something in place like I'm trying to build something where I can bring Napoleon Hill, but also these other authors no one's ever heard of or forgotten and like bring them back to the foreground. I'm trying to like to extend their legacy. I bought Dan Kennedy, my mentor's company, so I could extend his legacy. And the selfish reason I'm doing it is because I want to figure out, like, whatever I have to build to be able to do that, I'll be able to use that same platform to extend my legacy. And then my big question, like, what's the ROI of my life? Like, why was I here? If I, if I am here and I experience, I do all this stuff and I die and it disappears, like, what was the point of any of it? So I'm 100% probably overly obsessed with that, like the long-term ROI of my own life and work and the art that I'm creating.

So anyway, kind of weird, but when did that shit— like, were you always like that? Or did that happen at some point in your, in your career?

No, I don't think I was always like that. I think the first time I recognized it, I mean, you've been watching me email since 2000, you know, whenever. So like I, we were launching one time I was launching a new product every single week, right? We're launching a product because like we'd launch product, make some money, then create another, you know. So I was like launching stuff and then did other things. Then it slowed down. Then we got and eventually launched ClickFunnels. And ClickFunnels was, was interesting for me because it was the first business that really blew up that was just like, you know, like 9+ figures a year within like 3 years. It was just like, holy cow, this is crazy, you know? And then inside there, I still want to launch. I still create an art and launch. I created a course and it was crazy because you see like the Stripe account, right? And when you're at 9 figures, you know, every single day, it's pretty awesome. And then I do this big, huge product launch, coordinating everyone to do this thing. We launch it, you see a little blip, and then it would keep going. And I was just like, I did all that work and I barely got a blip for 2 days and then nothing shifted. And it was like, I got depressed. I'm like, my art doesn't actually matter now. And then over 5 or 6 years doing events, doing stuff, the only thing that people ever like came back to me was always my book. Like, dude, I read DotCom Secrets. Oh, I read Expert Secrets. I read— and like, I realized that the written word was the only thing that lasted beyond the blip, the moment, right? Is the thing that— and so for me, that's when I started becoming obsessed with books and writing and like other people's books and stuff. So I was like, this is the vehicle that that lasts beyond the life of the person is the written word.

Oh, interesting. Yeah, for me, I landed on a similar conclusion, but not on the legacy front. I was trying to think long-term, like, what do I want for my career, etc. And I remembered the impact that The 4-Hour Workweek had on me when I was like 17 and just completely changed the trajectory of my life. And then also a little book by Austin Kleon called Show Your Work. And I was like, that also changed my life. And I can't remember any like videos or podcasts that I've watched that have changed my life, but I can remember books. And so I thought, you know, when the publisher approached me saying, do you want to write a book? I was like, hmm, if I can write a book and/or books over time, that those really have the potential to change the trajectory of someone's life. So in the same way that Tim Ferriss did for me with The 4-Hour Workweek, could I possibly do that for someone else? And so that to me is a good reason to do the book thing because, yeah, I just think people sit with the ideas more. And I haven't yet heard your book changed my life. So, but it's a long-term project over the next few decades that I'm excited to, excited to explore. You working on the next one right now? I'm exploring some ideas. I have like a Ulysses file with like 10 different book ideas. I was thinking of an 11th one this morning. And at some point there'll be a critical mass of one of them where I'll be like, okay, let's focus on this one. Yeah.

Books are tough though, as you, I'm sure you know, like for me it was of all things I've done, it's the hardest. Um, every time I write a book, I'm like, I'll never do this again. And then like a year later, after the first one's been, you know, selling books, you see the impact, I'm like, okay, I'm doing it again. It's actually hanging out with Brendon Burchard. Brendon told me, he's like, I do a book every other year for the rest of my life. And finally I was like, okay, I'm gonna do the same thing. So of course it's been 4 years since my last book. That's a— because I'm struggling with my next book, it's been a lot harder to write.

But anyway, you mentioned in a video recently that you're working on the next one.

Like, yeah, can you share more details about it publicly, or is that Yeah, um, it's, it's my first personal development book, which is what got me down this whole path of buying 18,000 books. Like, um, because personal development meant the world to me, but I want to write something that I don't want— I don't want to write something everyone else has written, you know? But I also want to understand it at a different level because, like, you know, most— you know how most experts are nowadays? Like, they saw something on TikTok and they're regurgitating as their own the next week, right? Like, I want to go back to the sources and figure out stuff. So So that's the book, but man, it's turned into a bigger project. And also it's like when you start writing a book about success and personal development, like then all the demons start coming up. Like, who are you to write this? Like, what's like, do you know about these things in your life? Like if people find out about this, like, you know, it's like, yeah, I've been successful here, but not here. Here I struggle, here, you know, anyway, so it's been an emotional, like hard journey for me to create. I've literally signed the contract with the publisher 4 years ago and they messaged me yesterday again, like, they asked me if the manuscript's gonna be submitted this month. Like, I'm still in chapter 1. Like, I don't need— yeah, so I'm just in this big deep research phase. It's been super rewarding for me though to go and like read these things and see again like what, what Napoleon Hill was writing, you know, 100 years ago. What was Orson Swett Marden writing at the beginning of the century? What was like, you know, like just all that kind of stuff is really fascinating. It's fun because, um, back then like people had these ideas that they were, they were wrestling with. There was no like scientific proof of it. And nowadays we have these same ideas. A lot of them have been scientifically proven or some had been disproven, but it's just kind of fun because it's like trying to take like this old stuff, but like match it with what's actually what we know is real and then create something new and unique out of it.

So that's why it's taken me so much time. It's interesting to hear that you're feeling imposter syndrome about talking about success. And I'm like, well, if like, why would you feel imposter syndrome about talking about success? But yeah, it's interesting how It's the same thing, just at different levels.

Oh yeah, I think everyone's got things that they're, they're superpowers and the things they struggle with. And so that's why it's fascinating. It's cool because I'm also trying to like, okay, these principles that I know that work here, they worked in my athletic career, they worked in my business career. The things I'm struggling with, like, can I apply them here? And so it's like almost like a science experiment on myself, like, is this actually real, you know? And anyway, it's just, it's been fun. So what are you about your next one though?

Do you know of the 11 ideas, you know which one you're leaning towards or not yet? Not yet. One thing, it's a part of it is again, sort of balancing sort of what would make sense versus what would feel good. You know, I'm the productivity guy. It makes sense for the next book to sort of further cement my position as the productivity guy. And so I still like productivity as a cool, as a topic. I also think it's a cool lens with which to view the world. Like, what does, what does a productive approach to relationships look like? You know, me and my fiancée, for example, for the last 3 years we've been having, we've got like a Notion database with like templates and stuff like check-ins that we do every month and stuff. And that's like super, super helpful. So it's like little things like that. I love the idea of writing at some point in my life a book about like how to systemize your relationships, but in a non-weird way, in a way that actually improves them.

That's actually a really good title, Edit in a Non-Weird Way.

Yeah, in a non-weird way. That's a title. So there's something interesting about that, but it probably shouldn't be the next one because I also don't have kids yet. So it's like, it's not the right book for this time right now. I also like the idea, a title I've been playing around with is How to Not Waste Your Life, which I think is kind of interesting. Or I've been looking back through like the Jim Rohn and the Earl Nightingale stuff around like goal setting to see like, okay, what's, what would, what would the principles of how to not waste, waste your life look like? What does a wasted life feel like? Like, what do people regret when they're dead? And can we turn that into a bit of a book? It's just a few ideas that I'm, I'm playing around with.

So fun. That's a really interesting question.

What's a wasted life look like? I'm curious for you. So, so, um, you mentioned people ask you about work-life balance and things like, how do you—

like, what are your principles for balancing the 5 kids, the family life, the business, and everything? Yeah. Um, so for me, it's— there's a couple things. Number 1 is like, I learned wrestling. Like, when I wanted to be a really good wrestler, like, I wasn't able to do a lot of things that people— other people did. Like, my friends were out partying, they were having fun, you know, they were going on dates with their girlfriends, they were doing all these things. I was not able to do if I wanted to be— if I wanted to compete the level I want to compete, right? It's like, that's one big thing that people always ask, like, what do you do for fun? And stuff like that. It's just like, you know, like, I have core, like, 4 or 5 things I do, but that's it. Like, I don't have the bandwidth to do a lot of other stuff, right? And so then when I know— know these are things are important to me, it's very much like things are blocked out. And I'm not the best at this, but like, what I try to focus on is presence. Like, when I'm doing something, I'm doing it 100%, right? So I know, like, This morning I got up early because I'm trying to write this stupid book that's taking forever. But I was like, I got to block that time out. So like, you know, 5:30, alarm goes off, I'm getting up and I got an hour just to sit there and think and try to get— try to progress this forward, right? But then it's like, then my kids start waking up and it's like, okay, now I'm taking— I'm turning this off and I'm turning into dad. You know, I'm literally leaving the room, shutting the door, and now like, now I'm dad and trying to be present there. And I'm with them for the next, you know, depending— it's summer right now, but during school, school, it's like getting them ready, taking them to school, driving around, being dad. And then from there I drive, and then I'm taking that hat off and trying it. So I'm trying to— like, when I'm doing something, I'm very, very present. And I think, uh, I watch most people, um— I don't know if you've ever done time studies, like, with your time, but you take a traditional, like, employee and you have them do a time study where it's like, what's happening throughout the day? It's like people only working on 8-hour days, making maybe like 90 minutes of actual work, where I feel like like, if you look at my schedule, like an 8-hour day, I get 8 hours of stuff done. Like, I'm just very— because I'm so trying to be like, here's the things, being present, try to get stuff done. But then when it's over, then I'm done. I go home and I'm dad again. And then when that's— the kids go to bed, then I'm— then I'm husband. And then, you know, so I try to like, the things that are most important to me, block those out, and then they're sacred time when I'm— when I'm in those, right? That's cool. So that's kind of how I, I try to do it. And but it's tough because it, it doesn't leave room for other stuff, you know, which is hard sometimes. I do a lot of those things on weekends and things like that, but it's just like, um, anyway.

How did your, um, how did your approach to work change when you had kids?

I had kids young, so, um, yeah, I think I, I got married at— I was 22 when I got married. I was just starting this whole business, and then we got pregnant with twins. Yeah, right after that. Okay, fine. So I had 2 kids out the gate while I was still— in fact, I remember like at the hospital writing copy on my laptop while my wife was sleeping and I had the twins, you know, and we'd like wrap up in these little blankets and like put a bottle and like prop a pillow, keep the bottle in their mouth while I was like writing copy on these things, like trying to learn this whole business and stuff like that. So I've always had that as part of it. I never had a chance to do it on my own. Yeah.

Yeah, this is something I've been thinking about recently because I think I also want to have kids in the next couple of years. And so, you know, some entrepreneur friends who are parents I've spoken to said that when they had kids, it gave them even more of a desire to grow the business because now they're like doing it for someone, theoretically. But others said it made them realize that actually we've got enough money and it's more important to be a present dad than it is to be a sort of $100 million CEO, or whatever the thing might be.

Yeah, your kids— at least my kids don't care about any of this stuff at all, you know what I mean? They think it's funny. It's like, oh, Dad got— like, we'll meet some of the airport, a gas station, and they're like, you know, oh, it's Russell, you know. It's like, Dad got spotted. But Other than that, like, yeah, they just want you to spend time with them, you know what I mean? They want you to be at wrestling practice or showing up for the soccer game or whatever. And like, that's the most important thing. So it's weird because like we put so much emphasis, especially here in America, I don't know if it's the same thing where you're— but like so much emphasis on like income and status and money versus like the kids are just like, they just want time. Yeah. You know, it's interesting. So we'll do— this was a fun interview for me. I got some super useful stuff for my YouTube channel. So hopefully you guys will see that the end result of all the stuff I'm learning. Filming and, um, you're— the way you structure things seems way less stressful than I'm doing right now. Like, I'm for a whole week stressing about scripts and headlines and this and that and everything. Then we go film and it's like I've got such a short period of time to film. Am I trying to nail the very— like, the fact you spend 90 minutes or whatever to do a 30-minute video, like, for me it's like I could do one take because I'm like stressing out. And it's like, anyway, yeah, I'm excited to shift some things around.

Yeah, interesting. Uh, I think you can definitely do it in a more—

in a less stressful way. Yeah. Are you doing section by section, or you just— if you mess up, you just keep, you know what I mean? Like, um, you just seem so good and flawless. It's like, gosh, he's so good every time.

He's just got all the points and the perfect— oh God, no. Like, there's so much, so much on the cutting room floor. Um, yeah, I mean, I'll retake things or whatever. I, I find that the less in my head I am, the more fluent it is, because if Like on this podcast, neither of us have had to retake anything. If we're on stage, we're not like, oh, whoops, let me redo that line. But for some reason, when we're on camera, we're like, we feel the need to redo that line. Yeah, I could do it better. Yeah. And so, yeah, the more I can, it's kind of weird. I actually have these like 5 affirmations that I read to myself. I can share them with you actually. Whenever I film a video, This is, um, this is what I tell myself. These are the 5 things I tell myself which helps me get out of my head. Okay, here we go. Uh, number 1, I don't care about the performance of this video. My only goal in making it is to share a message that I think is worth sharing for whoever wants to hear it. Number 2, I intend to integrate my mind, heart, and soul to share this message in a way that feels authentic and natural. Number 3, I'm not trying to force anything here. I'm merely speaking from the heart, with the mind to inform structure and content, and the soul to remain connected to the purpose behind the video. Number 4: I'm going to enjoy myself and treat this process with lightness and ease. When I'm on my deathbed, I'd give anything to be back here, in the present moment, doing what I love, sharing myself with the world in a way that's enjoyable and energizing. I'm going to keep that in mind and not treat this process with too much seriousness, heaviness, or importance. Next: I'm speaking to an individual who really cares what I have to say, and who really wants to learn from me to level up their own life. I am in service to that person, not to my own ego, not to the retention stats, not to the algorithm. I'm purely in service to the person who has clicked on this video and whose life could be genuinely changed by what I'm about to say. These are the things that I literally read out to myself before filming every video, and I've shared this list with a bunch of YouTuber friends who have all found it helpful. It's like, oh, okay, like, in that mindset, it becomes— it feels more natural to talk about stuff.

Rather than thinking it has to be right. Yeah, dude, it's so fascinating. I think in all areas of life, when you're chasing something, it's hard to get it. But when, like, if you're trying to chase views and followers and subscribers, it's hard to get it. But when you don't focus on it— the same thing I tell my entrepreneurs in business— it's like, if you're trying to figure out how to make more money, those people always struggle. It's the ones who are trying to figure out how to serve their audience, that becomes obsession. Those ones whose businesses blow up. Yeah, you get what you want by not focusing on the thing instead of focusing on the opposite side. Yeah, there's a—

So good for me to hear that right now. There's a really cool guy called Joe Hudson. I don't know if you've come across him. He's an executive coach to some of Silicon Valley's like top CEOs, like Fortune 10 companies kind of thing. And I happened to spend some time with him at a retreat a few, couple of months ago. And he said something that really, really stuck with me. He said that one of the things he always says when he's coaching CEOs is enjoyment is efficiency. Instead of trying to do better at whatever you're trying to do, just focus on trying to enjoy yourself, because when you're enjoying yourself, the quality will just be better than if you were trying to be better. I was like, damn, there's so much truth to that. It's like, when I'm enjoying myself making a YouTube video, it is actually a better video than when I'm trying to make a better video. When I was enjoying myself writing the book, my writing is actually better than when I'm trying to write a better book. So even like just optimizing for enjoyment in the process, I just keep on learning that lesson in so many different areas, and it still hasn't quite sunk in where I'm like, Yeah, we just got to optimize for enjoyment of the process and the outcome will just take care of itself.

Yeah, dude.

So good.

I think I should be paying you for this consult. So thank you anyway. Well, dude, I appreciate you. I'm first pumped you're in Boise. Appreciate you taking the time to come hang out with me in my office and, and just share this stuff with, with me specifically, but also for our audience. And you can see my, my YouTube game double up. I love that.

It's going to be awesome. So thank you very much for having me. And I'd love to ask you some questions about like figuring out our value ladders and funnels as well.

So that would be really cool. We'll wrap this one up and we'll do another one and then And, uh, you can go to his channel, check out the opposite one if you wanna see, see the other stuff.

So thanks, man.

Appreciate you.

Thank you.