Inside the Copywriting Brain That Powers My Funnels | #Marketing - Ep. 24

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This is the Russell Brunson Show.

What's up everybody? This is Russell. Welcome back to the show. I've got a special episode today. I drug one of my favorite people in the room to go talk with me, and he's a little nervous. His first time on the podcast. But I'm excited because he's here in town. Heath is our head copywriter for now 5 years, right?

Yeah, it's been 5 years.

So the way I found Heath originally, and no one can hire him, so don't Google his name, I don't even tell you his last name.

Just kidding.

No, the way I found him initially is Kelly Felix. I hired him for something, and he was showing me how he'd scaled this credit repair thing to like $100 million a year or something, and I was going through all the trainings, and he's like, oh, one of the things we use a lot are advertorials. And I had never, I'd heard of one but I'd never done one before. I was like, do you know anyone you recommend? And he's like, oh, there's this writer named Heath, he's like the best in the world at advertorials, you should hire him. And so that's how we first got introduced. And I don't know if you remember this or not, but you made me a video, it was like an hour-long video explaining why I should never use an advertorial for my business. I was like, he just sold me to not use his services? This guy's great. And then we've been working together ever since then, so.

Yeah, I always say like you hired me by me saying no. Like the power of no is actually pretty, it can be pretty Powerful. No, I was, I was overworked at the time. I was stuck in an American Inn hotel because our RV was getting worked on.

Oh yeah, you were living in an RV at the time.

We were living in an RV at the time and we got in contact and I was, I was overworked. I was doing 4 different projects. I was partner on this gummy brand that ended up falling apart and then you, yeah, I got in contact and then I was looking at it and I was like, but it's already converting, why do you need an advertorial? So I did, I did this whole big long, it was like a 40-minute Plus video and I just talked you out of not hiring me. And then that was the key that gets you to, and then I couldn't keep you off of me. You kept hitting me up for things and so, yeah.

Anyway, he's an amazing copywriter, so he's in the office this week, we're writing copy. We're actually doing, on Friday, me, him, and Sean Vossler are doing an event where we're gonna be going through Napoleon Hill's Truthful Advertising and geeking out for advertising for a full day. Um, he's in office today writing copy with us. And so I thought, record a podcast episode. And I don't talk a lot about copy and copywriting, things like that. And so I asked him if he'd come in, and reluctantly, reluctantly, he said yes. And he's here now. So do you want to tell people some of your background, how you became— how you got into the writing world?

Yeah, I mean, I've been a writer for a long, long time. I knew I wanted to be involved in film, and my background's always been in comedy, and I love film, comedy, comedians, and writers. And so I always, I looked up to certain people that I've always admired. One of my heroes has always been Steve Martin and like Mel Brooks. And so I always, I looked at their trajectory and what did they do? Same with Conan O'Brien. And I saw a lot of them, you know, they'd go off to college and they'd go get a, they would go into the literary field, the writing field. And I was like, okay, well I'm going to go in that field, that area. So I just, I just was pushing myself that way, so when I went into college, I didn't have great grades in high school, but then I really busted my butt in college to get perfect grades. I wanted to get perfect grades 'cause I knew I wanted to be a writer in some capacity. I knew I wanted to create stories, so I went and I have a bachelor's in English and creative writing, and then I went back and did my master's in fiction, and I just told myself I'm going to get a career in writing. Somehow I'm going to, I don't know what that's gonna look like. I needed to make a living in writing. I didn't wanna be a financial advisor, what my dad was. He was always trying to push me to be a financial advisor. The one thing I do appreciate with my dad is he always told me to be my own boss. So he was, I was raised, he's been an entrepreneur my whole life. And he always told me, you know, be your own boss. And I always thought being your own boss meant to be a financial advisor. I was like, no, this is the worst. I'm not doing it. I couldn't do numbers, I couldn't deal with I just, it was so confusing to me. So that's, I got into, I was just at the time after, it was after my bachelor's is when I was like, okay, I'm gonna get a job in writing. I didn't know what that would look like.

Did you know about copywriting at that time or not yet?

I didn't know about copywriting at that time. I, no, no. I, it was, yeah, 2012 and I was just like, I'd just be able to use words to make a living. 'Cause at the time my whole goal was I have a family to support. My wife and daughter. And so I was looking around and that's when I stumbled— this was when I was in Arizona where I'm from and I found an e-com company. There's a lot of e-com out in Scottsdale, Arizona. So it was an e-com company for health supplements, but it was a whole range of health supplements, all sorts of different supplements. So they liked me because I have an improv background and they like that I can jump into different voices and different characters and different perspectives and angles because I've been doing that now for over 15+ years. And so they hired me and that was my first intro into copywriting and I got thrown into the fire of, I mean, I was writing, every day was kind of different. I'd be writing baby formula supplements to bodybuilding supplements the next day. I was easily the unhealthiest one in the office. I was not taking care of my body and I was click clacking away telling other people about how their metabolism works.

To put it in frame, 'cause how tall are you?

I'm 5'7".

So 5'7" and right now you're like what?

I'm 167.

167, how much did you weigh at the time that you were writing the weight loss ads?

Boy, I ballooned up to 260. So I was a meatball boy. I was a hefty boy.

Did writing the copy for those things, was that part of what transformed you, getting shredded and losing weight, all that kind of stuff? No, no, no, no, no, no, not at all. You were like halfway through the research like, "Oh my gosh, this makes sense." You know what's so funny?

The reason why I wanted to lose a lot of weight is because, or lose weight, is because I was getting tired while writing reading. I was just getting so fed up. I was trying to get through because once I got into grad school, I was really busy. We were reading like a novel a week and I had to do a lot of reading and quickly and understand it and analyze. And I was getting really sleepy. And that was my motivating factor was to— so I can read more. How nerdy is that? So I just wanted to get shredded for books. And that's— yeah. So that's really why I did. Yeah. I got— and then now I'm— yeah, healthiest I've ever been.

So That's awesome. Very cool. So I wanna talk, I mean obviously we could go for days talking about copywriting and different things, but I wanna bring some unique stuff 'cause I don't think a lot of our audience knows about some of the things I wanna ask you about. So in my world, everyone knows about funnels, they know about landing pages, upsells, downsells, 'cause that's what we spend so much time on. And maybe we'll come back to that, but what I originally tried to hire you for was a different type of creative and something that, that I think was really big back in the day. Like you'd see magazines and they'd have these advertorials, right? They would push somebody to go buy something online or to call a phone number or whatever. But then people started using them almost like pre-funnel, like before the funnel starts there's this page, this advertorial page. Will you explain kind of what an advertorial is, like how you kind of got into them? I want people to understand what that is so they can see how this might potentially fit into their business model and then we talk about specifics on advertorials after that.

Yeah, advertorials, and they've been used for, when I got into it, and then once I did my research and got more into it, I didn't realize they've been, they've been, they have been used for a very, very long time. And it's a sneaky way of— the reason why it's called advertorials, because it's an ad, but an editorial. So it's made to look like an editorial piece, like it's like you would read in the newspaper. It just looks, it blends in with the newspaper. It looks as though it's just another article. Written, and the way it reads also is very much like an article, and then it pushes you into a call to action to buy a book, to put information to get a free— there are old ones where you can get free cassettes, you know, test out these cassettes, check out these records, free recipe book. You can still see them, I mean, there's so many of them today, even if you go to the checkout line at the grocery store, You pick up like a Women's World magazine and that is filled with advertorials in there. They'll tell an amazing story of a transformation of someone losing weight and then it would go into a call to action to get this recipe book of what they've used. So I got into it, let's see, it was through, his name is James Van Elswick. He became an early mentor for me in the native space. So James did a lot of and continues to do a lot of work in the native space through Taboola, Outbrain.

Native advertising.

Native advertising, yeah. So when you go to any of the website, any of the news sites, and you see the ads at the bottom and you click on it, and oftentimes it'll take you to an article— it's an ad, but it's made to look like an article, as if you're still on that site or you're still involved in that world. And it's read as if like an editorial piece, but it's an advertorial. So it's like a pre-sale, it's a pre-sale to sales page. So it's a way for people to get information. It's used for for cold audiences, really, really cold audiences, and it's a way to first understand the problem and then get them interested and then get them over to the sales page.

Like you said, it's interesting because most of the sites I see those ads on typically they are like the news sites and you scroll down and they look like they're almost like just articles on the news site, but there's usually things like Taboola right above it or something, and usually they're crazy pictures, always like a crazy picture of like some person like peeling their skin like 8 inches away from their face or some weird banana that's green or purple or weird things that catch your attention. And you're like, what is this thing? And you click on it, takes you to what looks like an article on that site, and then at the end of the article usually, and it's not, they're structured in a way where it kinda sells you but not, feels more like an article but then it pushes you to the part where someone's gonna buy, right? So that's kind of the visual for you guys to try and imagine what it looks like. It's something that's happening, it's between the news site to your advertorial page and then from there would go to your funnel.

Yep. And there's all sorts of different types of advertorials too and also a level of aggressiveness of like how aggressive the advertorial might be depending on what site you're on. So like you talk about those thumbnails, those different images, they can be really kind of a strange fruit that they're holding and it talks about like some sort of weight loss supplement and it'll mention like unbelievable 'Fruit burns 3 pounds overnight,' and so you click on it. Oftentimes you'll go to what's called a jump page. That's also an advertorial. A jump page is just a very short one, and it, it's a page between the website you were just on and a VSL, a video sales letter, which is a long-form, you know, long-form video that sells you, of course, the product. So that jump page is used for compliance reasons, but also it's kind of like a tease. It gets you to want to click over to that video, to watch the video. And that jump page will be maybe 2, 3 paragraphs. It's very short. And then I'll just have a button that says "Watch Now." So that's another type. And then you'll have other types that are more longer. They can— it all varies of how they look depending on e-com or an info product, finance. It all depends on the industry.

Interesting. Now I saw— this is way back in the day, so it's been a while, but it was actually pre-ClickFunnels. We were building out our Nerve Cell, nerve pain offer back then, and we were looking at all the advertorials, 'cause that's where a lot of that traffic was coming from, and I saw a lot of companies like the acai berry and weight loss companies who, in the advertorial, they'd have 2 products where they're like, hey, step 1, you need to get the acai berries, and step 2, you gotta get the whatever, whatever wrap, where it was pushing the 2 different funnels. I remember talking to one of the media buyers, and he was saying that like, for every 1 sale you get on number 1, you get like, like half a sale on number 2 or something, so increase their cart value by having, did you see many of those or did people kind of shit, like I haven't seen them for a long time, so I was wondering if it stopped working or.

Yeah, I'm not sure about that, I can't even recall, I'd have to like look at that, but I don't remember that, yeah.

Like you'd be like step 1, go buy the DotCom Secrets book so you understand the funnel, step 2, get your free ClickFunnels account, you know like.

And it would be on one page?

Yeah, it was in the article, yeah it was in the page basically, like here's the step-by-step process, go get, 'cause it would say, it was like this is a system so you need like, The acai berries are the supplement and this was like a wrap and it was almost like, you know, or face cream, like this face cream's the step 1, this was step 2. Anyway, so I just—

Interesting, we'll still use steps. I still use steps in an advertorial, 'cause I've taught a lot of people how to do advertorials and so at the end of the advertorial, a lot of times they're like, what to do now? And I still do it, I'll say step 1, go here, and then step 2, a lot of the times I'll just some sort of urgency. Step 2, make sure to order more order, make sure to order at least 3 because this is selling out fast and everything. Or we'll also do the reverse kind of like urgency where it's like limit 5 per household. So it's almost kind of like it's already selling out so fast we can only limit. And so a lot of times I'll still do the step 1, step 2, and then step 3. And then on the step 3, click here now. But it's just an— it's, it's kind of like in a nice sneaky way of Each one is a CTA to the same thing. To the same thing.

Just keeps reinforcing the core call to action. Interesting.

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It is. There's so many different types. I always, when I was doing them pretty hardcore and pretty consistently every week, I would started doing we would always test above the fold. So I'd always give 3— the main body would always be the same. So what I would always do is, uh, I would do 3 headlines and 3 top images and then 3 leads. And out of those 3, we can get a good winner. And then the main body of the advertorial would be the same because it's always above the fold you want to test the most because that's where people are landing, that's where people are bouncing. So we want to see we would always, and then we would do variations. So we'd always, yeah, always, always 3 different headlines, 3 different images, and then 3 different leads to go in. So a lead might be, I'd always do a story lead, something that evokes that emotion, whatever that emotion may be, depending on the product. So if it's a survival product, there's a different emotion there for a survival product compared to a weight loss supplement, different kind of emotion. And then also the point of view of who is it coming from. Then, for instance, for a gadget, for a gadget advertorial, a lot of times people love the underdogs. It's like this small startup company is disrupting the billion-dollar watch industry. People love that. Those kind of leads always did really, really well. That would be a different lead that I would use in there. Then, taking a look at the headlines, I obviously do a lot of funnel hacking, so I have a massive advertorial swipe folder that I keep. And I keep adding to it. So I'll save and I'll show different examples from, from all the different industries of what they're doing for their headlines. So I always jump in there, take a look. And not only that, but I'll also go to— I look at old advertorials as well. So my little thing I've always mentioned, this is if you look at old magazines, I'll go to antique shops and find old magazines. You can find old Playboys. I did that. I have a whole stack of really, really old Playboys, like '70s and '80s articles. It really is for the art of the ads, but it's so funny. And no one believes me, but I'm trying to say it like it really is, to be honest, 'cause they're pretty astounding. They're amazing. The artwork and everything is so cool. They're really fun to look at. And so you can look at what they did, and you can see what still stands the test of time, of what still works today when it comes to a headline and a lead and so on.

He was nerdy. Last night I bought 15 ads on eBay from LaSalle University because LaSalle Extension University is where Napoleon Hill used to work for. Anyway, but I started finding their ads and like their long-form ads promoting like them, like you could do an extension school to become a lawyer or become a business operator, all these different ones. But I'll just show them to you. But like 15, each one's about $10, but it's a long-form advertorial all selling LaSalle University, but different hooks they had. And they were beautiful. All of them had like rock-solid headlines, really cool imagery, cool call to action, like they were just, anyway, so this is what Heath and I do in our nerd time is we just buy old magazines and ads just to look at them.

I think what's funny is when I talk to my other copywriting friends and other people in marketing, people don't also, I'm like, you know Russell's probably one of the nerdiest when it comes to copywriting. People don't, they think he was a funnel guy, but I'm like, I've seen Russell's collection.

I got more Swipe Files than anybody.

He has like some rare stuff that I'm like, holy smokes, you have, I couldn't believe some of the things that I've poked around back here, what your collection, and so people forget you have your own copywriting chops too. You just don't want to do it all the time, that's why you have me. It's like you're excellent in your own right.

Well, it's funny, 'cause when I got in this business, I was learning all the pieces, and copywriting was the one I was like, I don't want to do that. That was the worst, but it was also the most expensive. I remember the first time I tried to hire a copywriter, It was Michael Fortin and he wanted $15,000. I was like, what? I'm like, that freaked me out. And then first time I hired someone was Johann Mock. I paid him $8,000 and we never launched the product. But it was like $8,000, it was like all the money I had. And finally I was like, I can't afford copywriters, I have to learn this. It forced me to learn this skill set. But it's funny 'cause for me it's like copywriting isn't just the words on the page. Copywriting is everything. Eventually when you get better and better at copywriting, like the perfect webinar is just me copywriting. Like it's literally, it's a sales structure in place that I do off the top of my head, but I know the structure so well. You know, emails are copywriting, like Facebook Live, like podcasts, like every time you're speaking, like as you get better, you start weaving copywriting into it. And so yeah, like I've become a good copywriter 'cause I had to, but also it's like, now it becomes like second nature where like you're always persuading somebody to do something, right? Right now you guys are listening and we're entertaining you, but we're also trying to persuade you to listen to the next thing, and hopefully go check out sellingonline.com because you're gonna learn how to sell more, and whatever the next thing is, right? But like, that's why this is like such an important skill to master. I think it's one of the tragedies that a lot of people have is now they're leveraging AI for copywriting, which I don't think necessarily bad, but by doing that they're missing learning the skill set, which is the most— I think of all the skill sets I've learned in the business world, it's the most important, the most— it is the most expensive to hire out because it's the most valuable. But like, they may get a good sales VSL done on ChatGPT that works, but then they're going to go on a podcast or a Facebook Live or whatever trying to promote the thing, and they don't have any of the chops of how to do persuasion and copywriting because they had ChatGPT write a version for them. You know what I mean?

Absolutely. I like that you brought that up. There's so many things that you touched on that I want to mention. I think what we lack in AI— don't get me wrong, I know a handful of these copywriting guys that I respect and are friends with, and they're doing masterful things with AI for sure. I don't have interest in that because I also, I think what people, copywriters, what they're, if they're just using AI just for, just for the copywriting, you're missing out on their lived-in experience. It's that lived experience. Because I think when I think of copywriting, what you talked about persuading, it's getting to know people, it's getting to know their background, getting to know who they are. So you can actually, you're just channeling their desire onto your offer or whatever it is. And so when you're writing, you're able to tap into your unconscious just by writing, even though you have a structure of what to do for the copywriting, but you also have your own unique lived-in experience that you can't, you can't just outsource that to an AI and try to dump your own childhood and everything. Your story, your own story into AI for it then conjure up. Because there's been a lot of times, you know, even with you, we go back and forth and then you have, that's why I always say I need a Russell rant. Cause like when I'm doing a new sales letter or whatever it is that we're doing, I always have you wherever you're at in the world, send me over a Vox, 'cause I don't know where your brain is at. I know that your lived-in experience can all of a sudden, you had an experience that day that I didn't know about, but because of that experience, then there's that hook.

There's the hook, the lead, then just throw all the pieces.

Yeah, and then you like, and then that's why I say, okay, where's your brain at? And so we've done this for so many of our products, for so many of the offers with Dan Kennedy and our own products. And so sure enough, I'll get a Russell rant, a good 3-minute Russell rant, and it helps me tremendously, 'cause then I go, great. And then it also will trigger something. I'm like, you know what, that's awesome. That connection, I just now made a connection from what you said to what I just experienced at the gym or something like that, that made me realize this can be a really good hook, this really good angle. And so I, yeah, I think AI, obviously it's there, it's here, and we're trying to figure out how to best utilize it that works for us. But I also don't want it to take away the thing that I love, the thing that I know is Heath. That's what I am. I'm a writer. This is what I do. And so for it to outsource it, I— that's where you still need to be artistically satisfied and fulfilled and— or just fulfilled in what you're doing rather than— because then it just— how is it fun to just pull levers? That's what it comes down to with an AI. If I just get these cool prompts, it's just me pulling a lever, just putting in the right prompts for it. And It just, yeah, it just doesn't—

You're a purist like me, I understand.

Yeah. But I mean, I still utilize it for sure. There's been a time where, you know, how do they— I'll ask it questions and help me. Honestly, it's the fastest when it comes to citing sources, when I'm just like, take this, take this, and now put it in MLA format and give me a cite source and things like that. Or it'll help me with research, or also it'll help me with a springboard. I'm like, just give me 10 ideas based around this, just to kind of get my brain moving. Rather than just to have— I don't have it write for me, no, no, no, or any of that, but it's more of an idea generator.

For sure. That's why I've been— I never was big AI until just the last, man, like 2 weeks I've been playing with a lot. And how do I say, like we were talking about idea generation. So like for me, I have a million swipe files on a thing like book funnels or webinar funnel or whatever, right? So what I've been doing, actually I started running a report off to get you a copy of it, but I have links to like every Agora front end I could find that are like free plus shipping books or things like that, right? So I was like, look at all these book funnels that Agora's publishing and then like tell me, like analyze them, come back and tell me what's the same about them, what's different, what are you noticing, what are the headlines, what are the, you know, and then it'll come back and it'll give you all that data where it's like, okay, they're using one of 6 different headline structures. You're like, oh, cool, we should split test all 6 of those, you know, and oh, all these led with a story about this, or 3 were this, 3 were that. But it gives you all the analytics, and then at least for me, it gives me an idea of what I could write or what I should be able to write about things like that.

100%.

Which makes it more fun.

100%, 'cause I also, obviously I'm a purist when it comes to the writing and bringing it unconscious, but I also know what marketing takes, and we all love data. We're always going off of data. We always wanna know, we don't wanna reinvent the wheel, we wanna know what's working. That's why we funnel hack, and that's why if this has worked, then let's continue to have it work, and then we, work upon that and make the variations and all the split tests from there. But absolutely, yeah.

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So I want to talk about the first project we did together because it's a lot of fun and then we'll probably end the episode. So, so the very first project Heath came in on because he was doing a bunch of e-com stuff at the time and I had just bought a green drink company called Zuma Juice and it was the first time we had a chance to work together. And so Anyway, it was probably the most fun I've had, 'cause usually I either write copy on my own or I outsource parts to copywriters. Anyway, there's been good times and bad times with that, but it was the first time just working with you on a project, and our styles were very similar, which I love. So the first thing we did, if you remember this, we set up a Trello board, and the first thing was like, let's go funnel hack every single thing we can find around this. So we found every green drink product we could find, and then went and bought every one, took screenshots of here's the first page, second, upsell, down, We got every single green drink, and then we found other e-com products that were similar, other supplements, things like that. We funnel hacked those, and so we built a Trello board with, I don't even know, probably 30, 40 different funnels we had funnel hacked, along with emails and ads and things like that. And then we had bought the brand from somebody else. Do you remember, we bought from Luke Jaden, and we got on a call with him, and it was fun watching you, 'cause the questions you were asking were so interesting, 'cause I've only written copy for myself. I've never done it for other people. 'cause I always have the lens of I'm just writing to the people I know how to write for, where you were coming into a whole different world, and it was fascinating watching you, I don't know if you remember this, but you interviewed Luke for like an hour on the tone of the brand. Do you remember this? Like how do you talk to, like all that kind of stuff. And I want to go a little deeper there, 'cause number one, first off, step number one, guys, everyone funnel hack. Step number two, like, we were doing the funnel hacking, it's not just in copy, that's what most people do. Like what Heath did next that was interesting was like, figuring out the voice, or not the voice, the tone of the brand. Like, how does it communicate? How does it do stuff like that? Um, which I never thought of. I'd love you to talk about just your thought on that part of it.

Oh yeah, I'm a big pro— I'm a big believer of getting closest to the person who is creating the product, uh, that understands the product, that knows it in and out and has been working with it. So obviously Luke, and then I also did this— I worked closely also with Trey Llewellyn, who you know, friends and, uh, in e-comm. And so I would get on the— when I would work with Trey, I would also call up his, uh, customers. I would, you know, talk to a few customers and why they buy so many of this and actually get to know them, understand why they're buying it for. And, and so I always— I'm a big— that's part of the copywriting is the sales, is just talking to people. And the biggest thing is I just ask questions, then I sit back and listen. So I just was just listening to what— how Luke And he was, you know, had so much passion behind it. He loved, I mean, he loved this drink that he created. And so I wanted to know, yeah, how did he approach it? Because he was, and the tone was a really important thing because that is a, I mean, that's part of the whole branding is how to stand out in the marketplace with that specific tone. And so when it comes to the tone and also who you're going for and how that tone is touching that person. Because when it comes to different groups of people, how you talk to them and how you— you're not going to talk to busy moms the same way you're going to talk to a bunch of masculine hardcore guys. There's a different way to approach the brand. And so I would just— my biggest thing is I would just ask Luke questions and then he would talk about it and I go, "Tell me more about that." And I would just— and then let him And I just listen and I take notes because a big thing is just copy. I always say it comes from Kim. I'm going to ruin her name. I'm so sorry, Kim. Kim Schwamm. She's an amazing A-list copywriter, been around for a long, long time. And she— I love the phrase she used, copy collecting. And I really think about that. I don't think it's copywriting. I think it's copy collecting. So I'm just collecting the things that Luke is telling me. I'm like, oh, and I just make notes. And so there was a lot of fun tone What I got from the green juice, at the time the Zuma Juice was, it was a lot of fun. This was a green juice that was really, really fun because at the time it was like hardcore, like the greens and, you know, it's for your health and everything was so just organic and everything's so based for your health, it felt very just not a fun way approaching it. And so Luke wanted to do this like, you know, the green drinks that kicks your butt and it It's really, he used fun language around it about, you know, giving you a kick butt energy and he liked the fun part of it. So like, and that also went to show because in the video he first created was really, really fun. It had that early Harmon Brothers feel that he really liked. And so there was obviously, he wanted to approach a bigger market to show that Green's drink doesn't have to be an expensive, just really high high-priced and health food that is only for a very specific audience that only goes to Whole Foods. He wanted to make it be like, no, this is actually for everyone and it's good for you and it's so easy. He wanted that angle of it, like you can put in your greens very easily. So that was, yeah, my biggest secret is just asking more questions. I just interview the person and then I and I just write down notes and then they kind of write the copy for me, to be honest.

It's like, remember Kaelin Pullen? I asked her one day because she was— when she ran LadyBoss, she was writing all the copy and stuff, and she said, I stopped writing copy. So what I started doing, I go to my community on Facebook and I ask questions. I would just listen to what ladies respond. I literally use their phrases, like the things they would say to respond to my messages. Like, that was the copy. Like, they said it the way that it sounded to them, and so I just copied that and sent it back. And, um, So in our company, you get a chance to write for me, sometimes for Dan Kennedy, sometimes for Barnum PT. You've got to learn a whole bunch of different— Do you get schizophrenia ever switching from voice to voice?

It's a little different. When I go from you to Dan Kennedy, I cut out all exclamation points. All exclamation points, and then I structure it— Big blocky blocks. Big blocky blocks, because he— Older kind of traditional style writing, almost like journal kind of like style, a little different compared to how direct response marketing and copywriting has changed over the years. And so, and with yours, yeah. And then with Barnum PT, I get to play with voice, of course, and then different ones. So, but I got used to that. Again, that's like the improv background. Then what I first started with the e-com company, I one day, I remember, I remember I had to write this whole line of— was it baby? It was like baby products, like different soft— it was like lotions and different products for like a newborn up to like 2 years. And then after that was done, like the next thing was— no kidding, there was this brand at the time called Enraged. It was Enraged Nutrition, and it had the most aggressive, like, like scary names that, uh, you would— I don't think you can let fly today. Like, they're the most aggressive names. So I had to then change the tone and go from like just hardcore, put on a different— it's like putting on a different alter ego, a different persona while you write. So awesome. Yeah, yeah. Oh man.

All right, last question for you and we'll wrap the podcast for today. And thank you for doing this, a lot of fun.

Yeah.

For someone out there, because a lot of people in our world are trying to learn this business game and there's so many pieces, right? There's copywriting, there's funnel building, there's traffic, there's, there's so many different things. Initially, like, the best way to make money at first I think is learning one skill set and then going and doing that as a service for other people. And I think if someone wants to learn copywriting, it's a, obviously there's work to learn it, but it's also one of the most valuable skills. Like, you pay good copywriters a lot of money. Like, for somebody who's just in that spot where they're not sure what they're in yet, but they're thinking maybe I should become a copywriter, what's the path, or how's it look to like go and actually start learning and getting a client? What's that first beginning part look like?

I would highly recommend, there's a couple ways to do it. I would recommend getting with a company It's gonna, you know, start off just learning, getting with, getting an in-house position with an e-com company and then starting off small, perhaps just starting with Facebook ads. Just getting with a company that you know you can work hard and they see that you're hungry and they want to get after it because then from there you're gonna be able to learn the skills while also on their time, be able to, they're helping you, they're training you while also getting up to speed with what you want to do. I did, you know, that's kind of how I got started. They wanted me because I had a degree in writing. They knew I could write. I could write a sentence. I could write, I'd be able to write a structured argument and everything. And so they were like, okay, great. Now we can use that. And then this is how we actually do things to make sure it sells. I would do that. And then also, and then from there, if you want to start making more money and getting your and building your name, I was on Upwork at the time. I never was on Fiverr, but I was on Upwork, man, and I took every position I could get. And then I started posting in groups, and so different groups on Facebook about services, and that's how I got connected with a lot of people that I was really surprised. And also, and when you're doing these posts, being yourself. Don't try to be another copywriter of how they structure things. Really understand who you are and your personality. If you're funny, if you have a certain style about you, use that in your copywriting because that really makes you stand out with your personality. And business owners love that, they want to see that. So I would say, yeah, and then just, you're going to be putting in some grinding, but if you're enjoying it, then it's fun. I mean, back in the day, this is crazy, I don't know if I ever told you this, when I was like, I was just wanting to get out of this certain position and wanting to make it out on my own. So when ClickFunnels was first, it was new, it was fairly new. And I remember one of my, the media buyer I was with at the time, I was working with this company and I was doing, it was when probiotics was the rage. And I wrote this massive VSL and it was, I got to really get nitty gritty and we printed off all the transcripts from all the gundry VSLs and everything. And then he was showing me, he's like, look at this new thing, and he showed me ClickFunnels. He was like showing me a site that he built, and I saw, remember the buttons all wiggling and everything? I was like, what is all this? And then sure enough, down the line, I eventually was able to work with someone who had a ClickFunnels account, and I would log into their account, and I would be in my closet, I had a little desk set up in my closet, I'd be up until 2 in the morning and I would build a funnel just to see, to structure it and drop things in, make a headline. I was like, oh, this is really easy. And then I would delete it because I didn't want him to find out that I was building funnels in his thing. I was like, I don't want him to find out. I'd build a whole funnel and be like, oh, this is really easy, I could do this, and then I delete it. So I got really— so I would just find any opportunity. I mean, I was doing descriptions for yarmulkes on Upwork at one point. I was taking any job I can get and just to stack up and just to, you know, a lot of times in the early days you're just wanting to feel more confident that you can do this, that you can get after it, and you're gonna make a lot of mistakes. Mistakes and you're gonna get clients that want to take advantage of you and you're gonna have to figure things out and it's, it's rough. But it doesn't— I think if I were to do it again, I would definitely get with an in-house, get with someone in-house where you can know how to— you, some sort of, you're good at writing in some sort of capacity and then they want to— and then you're hungry because a lot of times, I mean, businesses just want someone that's hungry that stay with them and really know how they work, and then build from there, yeah.

Yeah, that's cool. And if you're an entrepreneur who can't afford a copywriter yet, then the process is kind of similar. You're not doing work for other people, but you gotta write a lot for yourself. I got to the spot where I was writing emails every day, and I was writing sales letters, and I just kept writing and writing. And for me, I wasn't good at writing, so what I would do is I would just, I'm very much a modeler, so I'd look at like, whoever, like if I was launching, I remember launching my first software product, I went to Armand Morris' site, and he was launching something similar. I was funnel hacking, what did he do? Okay, he had headline around my head, he had an intro story, I have an intro story, he had a, and I just like followed structure. I started doing VSLs, I would get the VSLs transcribed, and then I would look at the whole thing and I would try to break out, okay, the first 3 lines, like this was the hook, okay, boom, there's, I need a hook. And then the next 5 lines, they were leading with a story, and then I just kinda like started, in fact, if you look at the DotCom Secrets book, when I wrote that, all the scripts I show in there literally came from me funnel hacking a dozen people with that same thing and then looking at similarities amongst all of them, and then making my own videos based on that that would work. And like, oh, there's the formula. Like, I reverse engineered the formula from other people doing it. I didn't make it up. It's just I kept seeing it over and over and over again. And so it's like, okay, I know the things I need to fill in to make a good VSL, or to make a good webinar, or make a good whatever the thing is you're trying to create.

I did that with email. So when I really cut my teeth in the direct response, when I started going out on my own, was with email. So I got really good at email, and I was on Ben Settle's list, and I bought it. I started buying slowly, or got on his list, and then I've been following him for years and years. So then I would start to get on everyone's list just to get their emails and then I'd save them in different folders so I'd see what they're doing email-wise. So then I started slowly, you know, buying what you can afford. I was like, okay. And then I started buying. So I learned a lot also from Ben Settle. It was a lot of the early, early stuff I started buying and then really soaking it in. And then I was like, oh, I can do this. I can do this. And yeah, sure enough, once you started seeing the pattern, that's when— yeah.

Yeah. The pattern, basically the framework, and then you add your art on top of it and your personality and your— anyway, so Heath, that was fun, man. I appreciate you coming and hanging out at the office this weekend and jumping on the podcast. Any of you guys who are aspiring copywriters, want to learn copy, you got some great stuff from Heath today. Uh, Avatorials— oh, one last question, Avatorials. Um, if someone wants to run an Avatorial, they need to go to Taboola, or is there other platform? What do you even know?

Oh yeah, there's a lot. I mean, there's— I mean, Taboola, Taboola and Outbrain. It's been a bit since I've the actual insight of it when it comes to this part. But Taboola and Outbrain, you look at those are the top ones because they're on the best kind of publications. You're gonna get the better quality traffic. And then there's other ones that would run more because also it depends on what your offer you're running. So say for instance like CBD gummies and stuff, things where they're a little iffy that maybe were a little bit difficult for different publishers. But I mean there's so many. Taboola and Outbrain are— yeah, I mean, there's so many people also to follow for when it comes to native.

Yeah, I'd say advertorials, I'd almost step back and not do an advertorial if you've got a niche-specific business, right? It's more for mass market because you're targeting like news sites where it's all the people, not like, you know—

Native definitely takes it from— it takes more of a skill. There's definitely— you're gonna get a lot less clicks. The percentages are completely different compared to what you're used to on Meta and Instagram. With Instagram and Facebook. So, you know, to start with Facebook and Instagram, much, much better because then you can— they— that one, they just like— you just— it's all about creative and you just turn on the switch and they just keep pumping it with creative until the algorithm finds its way. When it comes to native, yeah, that's your— yeah, different type, but it's absolutely worth it. But also with the advertorials, that doesn't mean you just have to go for native. Advertorials are absolutely being used on Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, wherever it is, Google. I see them all the time because it's a great opportunity to bring in those cold traffic, give them information, and then send them on. And so, and also it helps you to whittle down your what's working. So a lot of times we'll do like split tests, multiple different advertorials, and then we see, okay, which one is actually getting the more clicks, then drop the other ones and focus on that one, and then do split. So it's also a way to find what the market is actually really, really interested in. Yeah, what they're Yeah.

Very cool. Awesome, thank you, Heath, appreciate it. Hope you guys enjoyed this episode. First time we talked about copywriting in a long, long time, and I hope you guys got some ideas and some cool ways to get your copy game up. So appreciate ya, and we'll see you guys all on the next episode of The Russell Brunson Show. Hey, this is Russell, and I had a really cool offer for you right now. Shortly after we launched ClickFunnels, I remember asking some of our top 2 Combo Club Award winners what would they do if they had everything taken away from them, if they lost their name, their brand, their email list, their traffic, everything, and all they had was a ClickFunnels account and internet connection for 30 days, what would they do over the next 30 days to get back on top? I asked over 100 Two Comma Club winners, and from that, 30 people wrote me back and gave me very detailed step-by-step battle plans. Day number 1, they would do this. Day number 2, they would do this. And by the time the 30 days was done, they'd be back on top with a very successful business. Do you wanna know what these people wrote? If so, I took all these 30 battle plans and I put 'em inside of one book that you can get free at 30days.com. All you gotta do is go to 30days.com and go get a free copy of this book. We'll ship it out to you, just cover the shipping and handling, and when you get it in the mailbox, you have a chance to go through and look at all of these detailed step-by-step blueprints. All you gotta do is find one of these blueprints that you like, follow it step-by-step, and when you're done, you will have your own online business done and launched and live. So go get a free copy of one of my favorite books we've ever created at 30days.com. Again, that's 30days.com.