Persuasion, Motivation & Influence

Have you ever noticed that there's a different scale when it comes to how we rate ourselves as entrepreneurs compared to how the world rates themselves as successful? There's something different. There is a different mechanism, a different way of organizing because we're built different. So how do we succeed past the measures that are prescribed to us by the outside world? As entrepreneurs, it comes down to 3 simple pieces, and that's what we get to talk about today. Welcome to the Magnetic Marketing Podcast. Today, Lee Miltier is going to be interviewing Kurt Mortensen. Now, Kurt Mortensen is going to teach us how to be able to use 3 specific levers: persuasion, motivation, and influence, in order to be able to redefine our level of success in a world where success has been written since our childhood by our IQ. How do you master all 3 so that way you can break out of the system and become the success you were born to be? Let's listen in.

I don't think there's anybody that has had a bigger impact in the field of direct response than Dan Kennedy. The legend of Dan Kennedy should be ignored at your own peril. They're not really lessons, they're kind of laws that you live by. Dan opened my eyes to what small business marketing looks like.

Dan teaches strategic direct response that is timeless.

His ripple effect touches people who don't even know his name.

The world as we know it was changed because Dan Kennedy became obsessed with marketing.

Welcome to the Magnetic Marketing Podcast with your host, Dan Kennedy.

Hello everybody, this is Lee Miltier, and welcome to the Glazer Kennedy Insider Circle members call today. If you're not familiar with me, I work with Bill Glazer and Dan Kennedy with the Peak Performers coaching program. I have my own coaching program for other coaches called Millionaire Smarts. I'm thrilled to be with you today. Dan and Bill have taken a flight to London. Yes, London, England, and they have asked me to fill in for them. They're going to be speaking a few times in Europe. I'm excited to tell you about our guest today. I consider him one of the top of the top people in his industry. He's a persuasion expert, Curt Mortensen. Many of you will know Curt since he actually spoke at a Glaser Kennedy event in the past. I have personally interviewed Curt several times in my own coaching programs, and people just adore him and love him and get so much out of his materials. He has a great brand-new book that I think you're going to want to invest in for your own professional library. It's called Persuasion IQ: The 10 Skills You Need to Get Exactly What You Want. By the way, Curt is clearly a top authority on persuasion, motivation, and influence. He has spent over 15 years researching, personal development. He speaks all over the world. One of his first books which got my attention and how I knew about Curt was called Maximum Influence, and that's also an excellent book for you to read. Again, get out pen and paper, take notes, because for all you business owners and entrepreneurs, the one thing that we always really need is to be better influences, not only with our customers and our clients and our patients, but to our staff and our family. So, Curt, are you on the call?

I am.

Well, welcome. We are really thrilled to have you today.

Oh, it's my pleasure. I'm excited to be here.

Listen, my first question. Traditionally in our society, our value and worth has always been measured through our intellect or our IQ. Now, as entrepreneurs, it's painfully obvious to all of us that IQ has little to do really with the way we live our life and make a living. So let's talk about that.

You bet. And that's, you know, what society teaches us. It's all about the IQ. It's all about the education. But when you look at the business world and being entrepreneurs, you can see a lot of smart people out there with some great ideas coming to market and they fail miserably. I mean, you look at the failure rate within the businesses in the United States, it's astounding. And the amazing thing is we do the research. In fact, Dun Bradstreet and the Small Business Administration got together and they were trying to figure out, okay, what causes businesses to fail? They both spent millions of dollars and independently they came up with the solution that most businesses fail because of a lack of sales.

Well, duh.

Absolutely. But that's what everybody works on last. They get the office and the carpet and everything, the fax machine, and they realize that It's very important because we all persuade for a living as parents, teachers, leaders, managers, entrepreneurs. Everything we want in life comes from the other side of persuasion.

So in your research, I know you said sales seems to be the number one thing, but why do you think— what is the mindset that holds people back from, like, say, just investing in your books or going to seminars or actually knowing more about persuasion? I do want to say up front that I think a lot of it is ignorance that they think they already know how to do it.

Oh, that's one of the reasons we administer Persuasion IQs. We've done over 20,000 of these to rate, okay, what are the top persuaders doing that the other people aren't? And the biggest obstacle is what social psychologists call the Wobegon Effect, is that we tend to rank our skills higher than they actually are. A couple examples: if I'm speaking to a group of 500 people and I have them do a survey and I ask them, Are your people skills average, below average, or above average? 90% will say they have above average people skills.

Of course they do.

We know that's not true. No, it's not. Even in the business world, 66% of the people are fired because of their inability to work with people. People lie to you. They treat you nice. I tell people, you know that annoying manager you don't like or that annoying persuader that rubs you the wrong way or that family member that just you don't like and I tell them bluntly and I don't sugarcoat it, that could be you. Because nobody ever tells you they lied to you. "Oh, too expensive. Can't afford it. Call me later. Send me more information." Those most of the time are lies. They are just trying to get rid of you. So my role at the Persuasion Institute is to talk to people after they have already lied to you to find out why you weren't able to get them to your point of view, why you weren't able to persuade them. When you look at the woe-be-gone effect, it is beyond that. It could be trust. People think they are trustworthy and they might be good trustworthy people, but that doesn't mean people trust you. So if I am monitoring an entrepreneur and a prospect, they are going back and forth and I will talk to the entrepreneur and I will say, "Did you build trust?" 9 out of 10 times they will say, "Well, yes, they trusted me." Then I will talk to the prospect and guess what they say?

"I didn't trust that guy at all." "Are you kidding me?

I'm not calling them back." It's only 1 out of 10 times, so we have these blinders on to where We think we have better people skills than we actually do. We think we have better trust skills than we actually do. We have to get past that. We all have different strengths in business. We all have different weaknesses. Persuasion is one of those power tools because only 15% of our success— when you look at yourselves as entrepreneurs, only 15%, 1-5, of our success comes from our core competence, what we know about our product or service. The other 85% comes back to the people skills, the persuasion skills, building the trust, understanding human nature. That's the key to success.

Do you think it's true that people like to do business with people like themselves?

Absolutely. They want to— and here's just the brutal numbers. When people like you and trust you, you have a 90% chance of persuading them. When they don't like you and they don't trust you, you have a 10% chance. So we want people that are similar to us, that we want to connect with, that are like us. That is a big aspect of what we do, but we have to be very careful because one of the big complaints— and understand that persuasion has changed dramatically in the last 20 years— is that people are getting too friendly too fast. Like the old-style persuasion technique where you go into someone's office and, "Oh, nice fish on the wall. Tell me about your golf clubs." Don't do that because that's— That's an indicator you're going to try to persuade them to do something. And so we need to be able to understand instant rapport, to read nonverbal behavior, and understand why people do what they do.

I think that's a great point, Curt, because I have an office building and people come and try to sell me things occasionally. And when they start doing, oh, you know, the picture on the wall and this and that and the other, you know, I just feel like rolling my eyes because I'm a Type A personality. You know, I don't want to talk about that. Instantly I want to get rid of them. That's great advice. I did want to just out of the blue, this morning I had a coaching client and one of the problems that she had was that she always wants to be liked. So it's almost as if people persuade her to do things that she doesn't want to do. She doesn't have any boundaries. She doesn't have any— she has a hard time actually persuading herself to say no to people. What do you say to people like that?

Well, and that's the thing. That's interesting you mentioned you were a Type A personality and she's more of an amiable person wanting people to like her. This is the big thing. Now when people have good people skills and are very amiable, a lot of times they make a lot of friends but they're not going to be able to persuade anybody. That's a challenge. Or on the flip side, like you mentioned, everyone's persuaded them to do something because they don't want to hurt anybody's feelings. Now the main thing to understand with persuasion and the big mistake people make is that most people tend to persuade others how they want to be persuaded. You are going to get to the point because that is how you like to be persuaded. "Okay, what are the bullets? What is the bottom line? Tell me what I need to do." Versus your friend is going to want to build a relationship and talk about family before they get into the nuts and bolts. The big mistake is that people tend to persuade others how they want to be persuaded. That is completely wrong. We need to learn to persuade others how they want to be persuaded. The big picture is is the moment— this is a big shift in persuasion— but the moment somebody senses that you're going to try to persuade them to do something, even though they need it, want it, like it, can afford it, they're going to resist you. So what we're seeing is that great persuaders tend to persuade others, tend to help people persuade themselves. That's a big factor here. Your friend talking about people skills, she needs to understand that some people she'll conflict with, some people she'll connect with. And when she can understand human nature and different personalities, it goes a long way in her success and her ability to say no and her ability to relate to other people.

So give us some real-life persuasion, like how do we know how to persuade somebody else? What are some of the tricks of the trade?

Well, really ask yourself. Yeah. We have to be careful. There is the old style. When people realize, "Man, I need to learn to persuade better," they go run out and get a book on closing skills. You have heard that term before. "I've got to get some closing skills." You know I have always said that closing skills is like trying to get a kiss after a bad date. Good luck with that. If they don't like you and they don't trust you, it doesn't matter if you have a clever phrase. It's not going to matter. The overall premise, the foundation of what we need to be talking about here as we develop better persuaders is the number is that 95% of all persuasion involves a subconscious trigger. Really, how many— to get someone to trust— like you meet someone for the first time, how much time does it take for you to trust them?

For me personally, actually a little while. Just because I've been in business for a long time and had a lot of interesting experiences. How long does it take me to trust them? I actually don't know. I would say that I tend to walk into meeting people with— I try to be more observant and not so quick to trust anymore.

Yeah, we're more skeptical than ever before. But even within, if you met somebody at a gathering, how long would it take for you to decide if you liked them or wanted to talk to them?

Maybe, I don't know, a minute?

Yes, 30, 60 seconds. You are going to categorize them. We have been taught our whole life not to judge, but all of a sudden in 30 seconds you are going to decide if you like this person, if you trust this person. All these things come into play and that is a subconscious trigger. What we are finding is that could be a word choice, a gesture, a smell, a color, the clothing. All these things come into play because it's just something we feel. I mean, we can't really know if we like somebody in 30 seconds, but we get pretty good at judging and categorizing. So we need to understand that we need to become experts in human nature. Why do people do what they do? What are they judging you on? Is it one gesture or one word that you're using really repelling people and making them feel uncomfortable?

You know, one interesting thing that I have noticed about myself, particularly since I knew I was going to be interviewing you today, is about this very subject because I did read your book and I really enjoyed it and I recommend everybody get it. But I noticed that when I do look at people and decide if I want to do business with them, that I actually really look at the small details like are their fingernails clean? You know, are their— do they have nice shoes? I mean, are they dressed nice and clean and neat? I mean, I know that's very superficial, but there's something in me that that clicks with. If people don't care about the way that they look, I feel like they won't care about me as a client.

That comes across from your Type A personality. That's something that people look for. But when you're talking to an amiable person, sometimes they don't care about those small little things and sometimes there's a clash there, right? Absolutely. That's where it's difficult. We ask people, "Well, what's the best type of personality to have?" Ultimately it's the one that, you know, your own. They think that's the best.

Like me.

Of course. They say, "Well, I have the best personality." That's the critical thing. If we can learn to read people like a book and to understand that if we could truly learn to listen with our ears, our heart, and our mind, they will tell you everything you need to know to persuade them. People are so concerned about, excuse my word here, vomiting all the features and benefits about their product or service that they are repelling people. They are talking 3 times too much, the studies are showing. And they're not helping people persuade themselves. They'll tell you everything you need to know to persuade them if you just learn to listen, read their nonverbals, knowing when you're losing them, knowing when it's time to ask a question. They can persuade themselves if you just come back and just learn what top persuaders are doing.

So give us some traits of some top persuaders.

First of all, the interesting thing about top persuaders is they'll say, A rookie will come to them and say, "Well, what should you do?" They will say, "Hey, just read the script. It's not that hard." To them, they don't know sometimes what they are doing. That has kind of been the big challenge as I have worked with people. I have to quantify, "Okay, where does trust come from? What is it that top persuaders are doing?" One thing that really surprised me as I have gotten into this research and studied top people, and I guess it shouldn't surprise me, Napoleon Hill in Think and Grow Rich found out the same thing, When you look at people that are super successful in business, a lot of it comes back to the mental aspect of the game or what I call self-persuasion. If you can't persuade yourself, it's very difficult for you to persuade other people. Absolutely. As you know, and you're a big believer in this, is that the mental aspect of you, the universe will not reward you physically until you believe it mentally.

One of the big problems that I think all of us who are listening to you today, Curt, have, and I hear this over and over again, particularly in the Peak Performers group that I do with Bill and Dan is a lot of people have a hard time convincing themselves that their service or their product is worth more. In other words, they all struggle a lot with that price point thing, and what you're saying about it's a mental game. So for instance, you know, I talk to other people who are information marketers and say that they sold their knowledge for $1,000 a day, but other people in their field are selling their knowledge for like $3,000 a day. $1,000 a day, but they're stuck. They're stuck that they have a very hard time verbalizing, "I'm worth that extra money." What do you tell people like that?

That's a big battle, especially with entrepreneurs. Huge battle. When people fight on price, it's because they don't have persuasion skills. Anybody can fight on price. When the value is there, and that's something you need to understand, I'm not here to sugarcoat it, is when you keep hearing that it's too expensive, there's one of two things happening. Either you've blown your presentation. When you get to the price, it should be, "That's it? That's an incredible value." If you've done it the right way, if you really know the laws of persuasion. Number 2, let me tell you something that's really interesting we've just discovered recently. As I monitor persuaders, I can have same persuasion IQ, same script, same product, and I've noticed, again, I'm calling the same leads. Everything's the same, but they're getting different objections. I go, "Well, that's interesting." Then I kept going to different industries and monitoring this, but this is the eye-opener. This might floor a lot of people, but here's what's happening. The objection you get the most is the objection you still have. Hmm. Now think about that. If you keep getting it's too expensive, deep down in your heart of hearts you don't believe it's worth it. Just like you mentioned, that's a huge obstacle. You've got to realize that you are no more than 99% of the people out there. That you can help people with your product or service, you can serve them. Because if you don't persuade them, and I believe you have a moral and ethical obligation to persuade people, because if you don't persuade them about your product or service, some other person that's not as good, has no morals and no values, will persuade them and take their money and give them 1/10 the service you were going to provide them. And probably charge more than you.

Thank you. A standing ovation for Curt. Yes, yes, yes.

I think you're absolutely right. If you don't persuade them, someone is going to take their money. It might as well be you. Realize that you have a great product or service. You are going to change their life, change their business, whatever your product or service does. You need to know in your heart of hearts that you need to do everything you can to persuade them. If you don't, someone else will. In a persuasion situation, someone is going to be persuaded. They are either going to persuade you why they shouldn't do it or you are going to persuade them why they should. That's just bottom line. No sugar coating. Mindset is critical. So you look at the objections you keep getting. You could be manifesting them. If it's the objection you fear the most, you'll probably get it quite a bit. If you don't believe your product or service is worth it, you're going to hear it's too expensive. You need to dig deep and realize that it's worth it, that you're providing. When people say, "Well, it's me and I'm providing," they keep reducing the price, reducing the price, thinking that's the answer. I think it's Dan Kennedy that says, "Add a zero to it, take a big gulp, and go for it." Exactly. And that's what it's all about. When the value is there, people— you get better clients. They look for the best, and that's what it is. When people don't invest a lot, they don't expect much. They tend to complain more. But when you really have a great product and then you look at that value and you build the value, and that's important, too. Understand we've got a lot of contrast in building the value, that when you get to that price point, it's an incredible deal to them.. It becomes a no-brainer, and that's what it's all about because money is relative. In seminars, I'll hold up a $20 bill and I'll say, "I'm going to sell this $20 bill for a dollar." Of course, people run to the front and someone grabs it and they sit back down. I ask them, I said, "Well, don't you need to think about it? Want to call your spouse here? Want to read the brochure? Go to my website? Come on here. Let's talk about it. You want to interview me some more? You want to talk to some referrals?" And they all laugh because it was a no-brainer. Duh, right? And then I take that same $1 bill and I'll sell it for $100. I'll offer some free CDs or coaching or something else and people will buy my $1 bill for $100. I mean, it's all relative. So you have to ask yourself as entrepreneurs, when you reveal your product or service, are they comparing your product or service to a Rolls-Royce or to a used car? It is up to you. To you. You build the value. It goes back, for example, if your car— let's say your car is smoking and it's making some funny noises. You come into a mechanic and the mechanic says, "Oh yeah, I'll take a look at it. Go to lunch. I can probably take care of it for $400." You come back and it's $2,000. How do you feel? Not a happy camper. You're pretty mad. You're feeling a little violated, right? You are mad. If you came into the mechanic with the same symptoms in your car, The mechanic says, "You know, I'm hearing transmission, I'm hearing this. You might as well spend your lunch break shopping for a new car because I don't think I can fix this for less than $10,000." Then you come back and it's $2,000. How do you feel? Ecstatic. Okay. Same bill, but you've packaged it. You've contrasted it in such a way to where the value is there. That's very important. When you get to your price, first of all, it shouldn't surprise them. The value should be there. You've got to get your mindset in the right direction. That should be the easiest part of your presentation.

Do you ever teach things to your folks about qualifying their prospects?

Yeah, that's a critical thing because most of the time we're talking to the wrong person. Qualifying up front is very important, and that comes back to becoming an expert in the ability to ask questions. Okay. Top persuaders ask 3 times more questions than average persuaders. Again, when you ask questions, they'll tell you everything you need to know to persuade them. For example, if you could just say simple things like, well, what does the perfect— for example, if there would be a perfect solution, what would it look like to you? And then listen. What does the perfect business look like? What does the perfect home-based business look like to you? What does the perfect, and then fill in your product, look like to you? What would completely solve your challenge? What investment fits your budget? When you can learn to become, just learn really great questions, you lead them down the road, they are going to persuade themselves and you are going to be amazed how easy it can be.

I think that is very valuable because you said earlier that sometimes people just vomit information on you and they are just giving you information. And forcing it upon you and not really asking you questions. Everybody wants to feel like what they're getting is customized or just for them kind of thing and that they're special. I always say the secret of sales is making people feel special. What could be more special than asking people questions and allowing them to talk?

Exactly. And they feel good. It's just like the doctor-patient relationship. A doctor, they can't ask too many questions. You want them to. If they came into a room and they saw you and you're sitting on the table and they said, "Yeah, I think penicillin. Yep, that's what you need, penicillin or Ritalin. Yeah, you need some of that," you would be offended. Even if the doctor knew exactly what you needed, you'd be offended. So you have to go through the process of asking questions. Even if you know what's best for them, still human mindset is going to state you have to ask the questions. You have to be the consultant, not the salesperson. But be the consultant.

Tell us, one of the questions I had written down for you in advance was what are some of the common obstacles that limit people's persuasion? I know we're talking about some of them, but are there any more than the ones we've talked about, about not listening, not qualifying, not having the right mindset?

Those are the big ones and, of course, the old famous Wobegon effect we talked about is that we all We tend to rate our skills much higher than we actually are and to realize that when we talk about persuasion or people skills, we've never arrived. We're always working on them. There are certain fundamentals that we always go back to. The biggest obstacle is to realize, wow, if we can get other people to get what you want when you want and in the process win friends for life, it's going to dramatically explode the income in your business. Because if you want to double or triple your income this year, there are two ways to do it. If you are an entrepreneur working in a business, you could work twice as hard, call twice as many people, or you can double your persuasion skills. I don't think people want to double their phone calls, but if you double your persuasion skills, double your success rate, it makes a huge difference. I ask people, "How much money have you lost in the last 10 years with your inability to persuade?" You kind of see the look in their eyes and the average IQ is $4.3 million. If you look at your relationships and your business and the things you were able to pull across, that's money lost. Again, we don't learn it in school. People just pick it up along the way as children. Children are great persuaders. They learn if you cry and moan and complain, hey, you get what you want. If you cry and moan and complain in public, you get it faster.

It sounds like some of our clients, patients, and customers.

Exactly. And adults do the same thing. They do the exact same thing. They either have— and that's just to back up a little bit is most people use 3 to 4 persuasion tools. That's all they have and there's over 100. And as Maslow says, if the only tool in your toolbox is a hammer, you treat everyone like a nail. And they just have the basic tools. For example, the easiest example is what's the worst vegetable out there? What's the vegetable you hate the most? Brussels sprouts. Brussels sprouts. That is the universal hated vegetable right there.

By the way, just so you know, I was recently speaking in Canada at a luncheon and they served this.

I asked the woman next to me, "Were they punishing us?" You don't see that too often. Did you eat your Brussels sprouts? No. Oh, okay. That's okay.

I didn't even want them on my plate, but go ahead.

Well, they do smell. But let's say you're a parent and you You just read an article in a magazine about how Brussels sprouts have antioxidants and they are good for you, so you cook them for your family and you have a 4-year-old son, Johnny Jr., and you put them down and you say, "Please eat your Brussels sprouts." What is the boy going to say? I don't think so. He is going to say, "No." You are like, "Okay, let's pull out my persuasion skills." The first one is you vomit all the reasons why they should. Antioxidants and hair on your chest and it is good for you and you just go on and they say, No. Okay, what else? Okay, do it for me. I've been your friend. I've done a lot for you today. Some people skills. And they say no. All right, let's see what else can we do. And they say, oh, if you eat your Brussels sprouts, I'll give you— Bribery. Yeah, bribery. Ice cream. And a lot of times they'll still say no. Then the last tool you have is you do it. Because I said so. Or else. That's what most people know. That's all they do. Again, that's 4. There are over 100, and the more tools you have in your persuasion toolbox, the more successful you are going to be. That's just the bottom line. You might only use it once a year, but if it closes that big deal and gets you the business that you want, it makes a big difference. Imagine, and I tell people, they go to, for example, a timeshare presentation and you go in not going to buy, not going to buy, not going to buy. You've been to these before, right? You leave buying everything. It could have been a seminar. It could be a timeshare. You are like, "Wow! What just happened to me?" What if you could take that power of persuasion and put it in an aerosol can? How powerful would that be? Imagine talking to a prospect or future client and they are like, "No, no." And you went, "Psssh!" They are like, "Okay, I'll take 3. Can I tell all my friends?" I want some of that. Exactly. It's not necessarily that easy, but it can be learned. Persuaders, they are not born. This is something that we can pick up, something we can learn. Imagine the power and confidence of reading people and knowing when they are lying to you and understanding when it is time to shut up and ask for their business and when it is time to build the value, it makes a big difference. You shouldn't be giving the same presentation every time you talk to someone. It needs to be customized to that person.

Curt, have you ever done any research about how many people who are trying to persuade others have actually taped or videotaped their own presentation and analyzed it?

I don't have an exact number, but as I talk to people, it is a trait of a top persuader. I would say it was less than 5% because it's painful to people. "Oh, I sound like that?" They'd rather be in denial thinking, "Well, that was a prospect. They just weren't smart enough to realize they should have bought from me." That's a sign of professionalism. If you can audiotape or videotape yourself and watch and you say, "What did I do well? That worked, that worked, and I need to improve this." Or even worse is very few persuaders will talk to top producers in their field. It's rare. They are more than happy to talk to you and go to lunch, but they think through all that and they'd never talk to me. No, they are more than willing to talk to you. You've heard this before. You take millionaires to lunch. You take successful people to lunch. You pay for the lunch because that hour or hour and a half or whatever it is, is worth its weight in gold. Because they can teach you some basic things that can make a big difference. And most of them are more than willing to help if you're willing to ask.

I think that's a very important thing. You know, in the Bible it says, "Ask and you shall receive." That has been drilled into all of us since the beginning of time, and yet that is something that entrepreneurs sometimes will not do. They have a psychological hang-up that I should already know this or I'm already doing it well because they're in denial. Or they're not asking for help at the right time. We— Bill Glazer and I just had a peak performance meeting last week in Baltimore, and a few people came up on the last day and they had questions. And I said, well, why didn't you ask these questions, you know, while we were in a big forum where, you know, many people could, you know, help you and brainstorm on this? And they said, well, you know, I really didn't know if I should ask this question. And I was flabbergasted. You know, you're in an environment that encourages you to ask any question and they're still afraid to ask.

And that is, ask and you will receive. More than happy to answer your questions. And if you can get to the right people and ask the right questions, you get past the thing that's costing everyone millions of dollars on this phone call, the phrase, "I'll figure it out on my own." Right. As one of my early mentors, Jim Rohn, taught me, he says, "Every challenge, obstacle, or trial you're going to face in life, someone's already been through it." and has a CD or a book or a seminar about it, you might as well learn from them instead of spending, you know, 2 or 3 years of hard knocks. And that's what I tell about persuasion is that you're either going to learn through the school of hard knocks, cost you millions of dollars, or you're going to learn to do it the right way. And when you need the ability to persuade somebody, it's too late to learn.

You just mentioned Jim Rohn, and everybody knows that. Who else in your world do you really admire and as a mentor, whether you know them personally or not? That you want to talk about, their examples of how they persuade people?

You've got to put Dan Kennedy and Bill Glazer on the top of the list. Brian Tracy would be up there. Jim Rohn, as far as really getting me, as far as when I initially started in the business world, as far as getting my mindset in the right way and helping me realize the big picture with all those that what I learned from society what I learned from school was completely and utterly wrong in many aspects.

Absolutely. Talk about that a little bit, Curt, because that's important. People have the, you know, our self-image is determined by the time we're 5 to 7 years old, and a lot of people go through life with obsolete negative information in their brain that they never actually question.

You're exactly right. You mentioned 5 to 7 years old, and around first grade we're finding that when you were at that age and somebody called you dumb, weird, strange, ADD, smart, whatever it is, that became an instant belief. There was nothing you could do about it because people were only born with two fears: the fear of falling and the fear of loud noises. The only thing that we're born with as human beings. And all these fun little fears we've picked up along the way, they've been learned. We've been taught these fears. And the amazing thing is that we can get past them, but then again, society has brainwashed us with all these things. These fears or these beliefs that aren't wrong, whether it be about wealth or about success or you have to go work for a large corporation or insurance or money is the root of all evil or you have to step on people to get ahead or there's not enough to go around. Those beliefs have been ingrained into a lot of people. Now they want to be wealthy on one hand, but deep down they have a belief that conflicts. When people have conflicting beliefs like money is the root of all evil and I want to be wealthy, They never hit the target. Just like a 747 going in for a landing, if two control towers were telling it what to do, what would be the consequence? Not pretty. Not pretty at all. That's what's happening to you. You're never hitting the target because you have two belief systems telling you what to do. You're going back and forth. You never hit the target. If you're wondering what's taking so long, it goes back to fears. Understand the belief systems are what we call the mental aspect of the game.

So what they think and what they want is totally incongruent.

It is. Sometimes they don't even know that they have these conflicting beliefs. Sometimes they don't even know where these fears are coming from. Fear is holding a lot of people back. Fear has cost everyone that's called millions of dollars. We're so concerned what other people think. Exactly. We have to learn, and this is a sign of greatness—top persuaders, top entrepreneurs—we have to learn to follow our hearts. Every millionaire has the same story. More people told them they couldn't do it. Right? Well, what about this? All your family and friends are excited about your new business. You tell them about your goals, your dreams, your aspirations. The people closest to you spit on your dreams. They suck the life out of you. They are called the living dead. You sit next to Aunt Edna at a family gathering and you don't even talk to her and you can feel her sucking the life out of you.

You've been at my family gatherings.

Exactly. We all have these. Whether it's, "How's your business empire? How's this?" They jab at you. That's a hard thing for people to understand is that people will make fun of you on the way up in your business and they'll resent you once you get there. How motivating is that?

Curt, this is something we talk about so much in the Glaser Kennedy world about the fact that being an entrepreneur is one of the loneliest things that you can possibly be in life. And that our family and our friends don't quite understand. In fact, I call anybody outside of our business civilians. I can barely talk to civilians anymore because I don't want to talk about the cost of gas and, you know, the weather. And that's very boring to me. So how about talking to us about some of the habits that we could— that we want to avoid and that we want to get in to be good persuaders?

Well, that's the thing is developing these habits and understanding exactly where you stand. Habits are a critical thing. I think the big one, just an easy one that we can all talk about right now when we talk about different forms of persuasion is just understanding that every word we use, whether it be in a sales copy or on the internet or face-to-face, has the ability to attract or repel somebody. Most people just talk. They don't think about their word choice as much as they should. Great persuaders have the ability to craft and sculpt their language where it draws people to them, that people want to be persuaded by them, what we call verbal packaging. Every word makes a big difference and people don't even think about it. When they are talking to somebody one-on-one, they are not even thinking about their word choice and that is a critical thing because when you use the right words, you come across as more credible, competent, and convincing. That is just an easy thing to add to think about. Is understanding that every word makes a difference. There are some words you should be using all the time and there are some words you shouldn't be ever using that really repels people.

Do you want to give us some of those?

Oh, you bet. Well, let's give you an example. One of my favorite examples is the airline industry. They package their words because they have to. You are sitting in your chair, you are putting on your seatbelt, the video presentation comes on and then they have the gall to say, "In the event of a water landing." Hello? Right? That's very funny. They don't say when the plane hits the water and the wings rip off, right? It's, oh, in the event, or in the unlikely event of cabin depressurization. Now what that means is there's a hole in the plane sucking everybody out, but you know, in the event of cabin depressurization. And there's no barf bag, it says for motion discomfort. They never clean a plane, they refresh it. They've never lost my luggage, right? Your luggage has never been lost, it's only been misplaced. Planes are never delayed or never late. They are delayed. It might seem like a subtle thing, but it makes a huge difference. Even the way we package our words, our voice. You want the pilot to come on and say, "Hello, this is Frank. I have been flying for 30 years. Welcome aboard." You don't want to hear, "Hi, my name is Jimmy. This is my first flight." That would really hurt things. A pilot would never say, "Uh, yeah, sorry, the plane's broke. We'll get it fixed." They would never say that. It's always mechanical difficulties. So the way we say things, the way we package the words and our voice or tonation, all these things come into play as you're working with people. So as entrepreneurs, some things that you would never use, of course, is a word like "contract" or "sign the contract." You would say, "Okay, the paperwork." You would never— like the big boys, when you're interested in a product and they say, "Oh, okay, let me transfer you to sales." Guess what that does to people inside? Scare them. It scares the pants off them and it just feels wrong. "Go to a consultant." It's not the cost, the investment. It's not expensive. It's top of the line. It's not cheap. It's more economical. We have to learn to tame our words. We don't say "if." We say "when." We don't say "try." We say "will." We don't ever say "but" because "but" negates everything in front of it. "Well, it's a great product because of this, this, and this, but you've ruined it." Or those that are married, "You look great tonight, dear, but you're probably sleeping on the couch." So we can buffer that with the word "and" or "however." We have to learn to craft our words. A power word is the word "because." The way our brains work, when we hear the word "because," we automatically assume subconsciously someone is going to give us a valid reason. In fact, Elaine Langer, she did the studies at these colleges. She tests word choice. And she would go try to cut in front of a photocopy machine. She would wait until there were 5 people. And the first time she said, "Excuse me, may I cut in line? I'm in a rush." And 60% let her in. And the next time it was, "Excuse me, may I cut in line because—" I'm in a rush. So the only difference was the word because. She went from a 60% compliance rate to a 94% just by adding the word because.

By the way, I learned that from you like a couple of years ago, that very example. And every time I break in line, I always go, I have to break in line because my flight is getting ready to leave.

Exactly. And that's the funny thing. Even if it's not a valid reason, it works. Because the third time she says, excuse me, may I cut in line because I need to make some copies. Well, duh, but she used the word "because" and the compliance rate was the same in the high 90s. So every word, again, whether it be sales copy or on the internet or face-to-face, the inflection we use, the tone, the rate, how fast we speak, all these things come into play as far as attracting or repelling people.

Well, that was fun. I enjoyed that. That's a great habit to start paying attention to is not only how we're talking, but talk to us because all of us have staff and they're talking on the phone to people.

So how much should we teach them about this work? Everything, especially customer service. They're on the front line, the way they treat people, the words they say. And I've noticed too as I train customer service that sometimes people will ask a question and the people on the other line can just sense the fear of the customer service. They can sense their reluctance to answer a question, and that is very important. This goes— permeates every aspect of your business. We all persuade for a living, and especially those people on the front line, teaching them to ask the right questions, letting people know that they can ask questions. And the challenge is a lot of times when you look at front line or customer service or sales professionals, is they don't understand human ego. They don't understand esteem. They don't understand that the human brain always needs to be right. That alone is a huge aspect of becoming a top persuader is understanding those basic fundamental human needs.

The human brain always needs to be right. I'm intrigued by that. Explain that.

If you look at it statistically, You are right 50% of the time and you are wrong 50% of the time. Not in my house. I am right all the time. We are all in denial. We are like, "Well, no, not me." But statistically, you are sharp so we will give you a 70/30. My husband would give me a 20/80. When you prove somebody is wrong, it feels good. It is kind of fun, but you have shut the door to persuasion. You have dampened the human ego. And you have no longer the ability to persuade them. If you want to be a top persuader, you have to check your ego in at the door. It's fun to win an argument. It's fun to prove someone wrong, but then you no longer have the ability to persuade that person. It's simple. Simple things like praise. How much does praise cost? Nothing. It's free and people don't do it because of their own low self-esteem. That's a whole other topic. When we can learn to praise, when we can learn to to boost somebody's ego, it goes a long way. People are so hungry for a compliment. I remember I was shopping with my wife and it's not my favorite thing to do, but she'll say something like, "Well, let's go do some research." Then I'll go, right? Do some persuasion research. She went into a store and I walked into this suit store. My wife says, "You don't need another suit." I'm like, "I'm just going to see how well they persuade. I'm not going to get a suit today." This person came up and he said, "Well, what are you looking for?" I'm like, "You know, blue suit." As you know, blue is the most credible color, so I'm getting a blue suit. He says, "What size are you?" I'm like, "I don't know." So he measured this and he measured my chest. He measured my chest again. He looked at me and all of a sudden he says, "Do you work out?" I said, "Why, yes I do." He says, "Well, you're going to need the athletic cut." I left with a suit that day for other reasons. But if we can understand, especially customer service and the front line and dealing with people and how people when they are angry and upset and how we deal with that, just listening and understanding ego and not proving that they are wrong goes a long way because egos are so fragile. Self-esteem is at an all-time low. If we can just understand that aspect of human nature to check our ego in at the door, that alone is going to dramatically increase your ability to persuade.

What if you've already sort of, you know, come, you know, you're in a situation with someone where it has definitely gone south and there have been words or it could have been with, you know, a customer or client or a patient. You know, something went wrong, you kind of lost yourself, things have been said that probably shouldn't have been said. How do you recover? How now do you persuade that person to stay or, you know, I mean, do you have to put your ego in check obviously, but what do you do?

Well, that depends on how much damage has been done obviously. I mean, a lot of these things are salvageable and if it's been really bad sometimes they aren't just because they're going to entrench in their position. And you know that you can provide your service and do the best you can and people might come back and say, well, you didn't do this or didn't do that. You did everything you promised, but in their mind they were expecting something completely different. So expectation management is a critical thing too. But part of that is just understanding, first of all, and we teach this in negotiation, that apology is cheap. Now we don't want to. We don't want to admit our mistakes, but even in a negotiation, for example, and they come at you and they're upset and you say, "You know what? I'm sorry. I apologize. That wasn't my intent." You don't even have to say you were wrong. Just say, "I apologize. That was not my intent." And they kind of get that look in their eyes like, "Oh." Okay, well, don't do it again. Okay? And you can move on from there because it's interesting when people get upset, when people get angry, blood leaves the brain, as you know, goes to their arms or their legs, fight or flight, and they just don't think clearly and they get highly emotional. And understanding human emotions, what to do when people are angry or frustrated goes a long way. Dealing with the anger, dealing with the frustration because the point that you brought up is It's frustration. If you've got somebody on the phone that's frustrated, you have to realize that basically, okay, frustration comes from an unmet expectation. Wow, why didn't they teach me that in school? So what's happening is for some reason you did not meet an expectation, implied or not implied. You find out what that expectation is, meet that expectation, the frustration goes away, the anger goes away, you can move on. And do business together.

I have to tell you, Curt, I guess I've interviewed you 3 or 4 times over the year, but I just learned something that should be so obvious. When someone gets upset, their blood leaves their brain.

I wrote that down really big. They're not thinking clearly. So you have to think, okay, first of all, anger is a secondary emotion. What they're mad about and yelling at you about could be two different things. That's just how it is. For example, I was talking to a A college student had a black eye. I said, "What happened?" He said, "Well, my roommate hit me." I'm like, "Well, what happened?" He said, "Well, I was eating my Cheerios too loud." Okay, well, there's the reason and there is the real reason. And when you tell people, "Well, you shouldn't be upset or you shouldn't be feeling that," that just makes it worse. And the best way that we found to handle anger is just to change scenery, to come back later, to go for a walk. I was going to a negotiation once. I was helping to mediate this conflict. And they were there ahead of me. I went up these stairs and they were already into it. They were yelling at each other, "The blood has left the brain!" And they were going at it. And they didn't even know that I walked into the conference room. So here I am at the top of the stairs and there's this large box on top of the stairs. It was about 12 inches by 12 inches and I just kicked it down the stairs. Da-dunk, da-dunk, da-dunk. They stopped. They looked. They looked at me. A little time to get the blood in the brain. They realized that they were both out of control was enough. Okay, let's get back on track and talk about it. So sometimes understanding fear and anger and human emotions and what to do in those situations goes a long way in really becoming a successful entrepreneur.

And we need to remind ourselves when our blood leaves our brain— Exactly. We need to shut up. That's priceless. I love that. What other habits? Do you want to talk about that people want to start to— and, you know, how do they implement persuasion into their business?

Well, you know, a little bit at a time as far as implementation. Learning a new tool a day, a new tool a week, learning to try it out. And you know better than anybody that the first time you try anything, it's not going to be perfect. First time you golf or try anything, it's not perfect. You know, try them out. These are proven techniques of top persuaders. I think a big thing, you know, we've talked a little bit about trust. Learning to connect with people, developing that instant rapport. I mean, you've met people where you just connected with them, you liked them, and then other people you've met them and you feel like taking a shower. Not with the person, but because of the person. Thanks for qualifying that one. So you have to learn what is it that can connect you with someone because when people like you, they forgive you of the little weaknesses. When you can put someone in a good mood, and that's just my latest research on mood has been fascinating. When someone's in a bad mood, I would not attempt to persuade them until they're in a good mood. Because when you're in a bad mood or your prospect's in a bad mood, they recall negative things. Everything that's going to go wrong. What they shouldn't like about you. But when they're in a good mood, they recall positive things. Why it's going to work out. Why they should like you. Simple thing, but we have to look at their mood and of course your mood as a persuader. How about the timing? Oh yeah, timing. Because if you're a persuader and you're in a bad mood, you were in a fight with a spouse or somebody else and then you put on that fake smile, whether it be over the phone or face-to-face, they sense it. They'll never call you on it. They'll never call you on a lie. They'll never call you on different things. They'll just say, "Not interested. Talk to me later. Send me more information." You have to understand that mood Matters, especially in your ability to connect.

So if you're a person making cold calls, how on earth do you know about a person's mood?

You can sense it. You have to learn to, especially if it's over the phone, you have to read it in their voice and the words that they use. Obviously, say, "What do you want? What are you selling?" That's kind of a red flag as far as their mood or even their type of personality. But just learning to read facial expressions, learning to read, you know, when they see you, is that a smile, a real smile, is that a fake smile? Are they opening up to you? You can look at their feet. Are their feet pointing towards you? Are they pointing away? You can look at their shoulders. Are their shoulders pointing towards you or are they pointing away? All these subtle things that we can read that we've just never really looked at before can tell you how much we're connecting or not connecting with the person.

I like that. So talk a little bit more about timing and moods in the sense of what should a person do about their own moods before they try to go and sell something or persuade something? How do they get themselves, as Tony Robbins would say, in state?

In state. That is the mark of a top persuader. They've got off a bad phone call or a face-to-face visit and someone's hurt their feelings. Even when you take something from the world of sales, you know, some will, some won't, so what, who's next, is part of the process. But still, they've rejected you. You feel rejected. That was hurtful. You want to go in your corner and cry, but that's not going to help your business. Part of it, as we notice, is that you need to take a couple minutes or 2 minutes or 5 minutes and understand, okay, what works for you? What gets you back in the state? Looking at a picture of one of your goals, is it going for a walk, is it doing a daily affirmation, is it talking to somebody that's positive? But you need to reduce the time to where top persuaders can actually do it in 30 to 60 seconds to where they can get back in the right state. Now, at first it might take you 10 minutes, but I would spend the 10 minutes and get back into the right state, into the right mood, because you'll be more successful. And so you have to really find out, okay, what works for me? Is it a chocolate chip cookie? Is it music? Is it to read your— your vision statement? Is it to talk to a loved one? Whatever works for you. You need to have a game plan to get back on track. That's one of the hard things about the whole positive mental attitude kick or the stinking thinking. The positive mental attitude where they're sitting on the couch thinking, "I'm the best and people like me and I'm wealthy." That's a good start, but it's also a form of delusion unless there's an action plan. I'm kidding. You're sitting on the couch. And then the other camp says, "Well, you shouldn't have negative thoughts. That's stinking thinking." No, we're all going to get some pretty destructive negative thoughts come into our brains. That's just human nature. It will happen. It's what you do with them. When you have a negative thought, do you dwell on it? Do you give it life? Do you give it a place to grow or do you redirect your thoughts into something else? That's the sign of a top person. You'll have negative thoughts. That's human nature. But if you can learn to redirect those into something positive, have a game plan when you're feeling negative., and you try and you find a way to make your commitment to make your business successful stronger than your moods.

Tell us about the Persuasion IQ test that is in your book. What were the results that shocked you the most about your test?

Well, we've given this over 20,000 times, the Persuasion IQ. There's a long version, there's abbreviated versions. First of all, get past the will-be-gone effect because when we can rank you against 20,000 other people, this is the fact. There's no way around it. This is your strengths. This is your weaknesses. I think one of the interesting correlations is that there's a direct relationship between someone's personal development program and their income. You know this, but a lot of people just kind of miss this and want to figure it out on their own. We're seeing that top persuaders are taking 5-10% of their income getting the CDs in the car, buying the books, going to seminars, mentoring with other people. There was a huge correlation between the amount of time they were doing that a week and how much income they were investing there and how much money they were making. Again, there is a one-to-one relationship between your income and your personal development program. Contrary to popular belief, what you don't know will hurt you and everything you need to learn someone has already figured out. You might as well learn from them. That is a mark.

Of a top producer. There is a quote in your book. You say, "If you think education is expensive, try ignorance." Exactly.

I'll figure it out on my own is tough. Here is another thing we found out with personal development from a Harvard study. Those that are learning and growing every day, they are more optimistic about life. They are more enthusiastic about where they are going and what they are going to accomplish. Those who aren't learning and growing every day become negative and pessimistic about themselves and their future.. It's a great motivator, but you have to be careful. As we talked about the living dead or your family and friends, or what you called civilians, they're watching TV all day and they know everything. You're learning and growing every day and you realize you don't know that much. So you just have to deal with that. That's just part of it. They know everything from the TV, but you just have to put them in their place and realize, no, listen to the CDs in your car. Turn the TV off. Read the books. Find the mentors. That is a sign of a top producer.

Well, I think everybody who's on a Glazer Kennedy call, you know, really not only have, you know, Dan and Bill been incredible mentors for all of us, but, you know, everybody who goes to all their events and part of their programs, you know, there's this incredible ability for all of us to share with each other, and that has been so valuable for me and I'm sure everybody listening. So just for a couple of minutes, talk about your book and, you know, Who published your book?

The American Management Association, AMICOM. They are bringing it all together. They are really interested in the research side as far as the Persuasion IQ, but it's basically here are the traits I found in top persuaders. If you can learn just a little bit at a time to become a top persuader, because success and wealth is an open book test. The answers are there. What I'm doing is giving you the answers of things you need to master whether it be relationship, your business, your personal life, whatever it is. Everything we do in life, persuasion permeates everything we do.

Thank you for listening to the Magnetic Marketing Podcast with Dan Kennedy. If you love hearing in on these lost Dan Kennedy talks and speeches and calls, then please let someone else know about this podcast. That's how you can help it to grow, and the more it grows, the more free Dan Kennedy we can bring to you. Also, Dan would love to give you the most incredible free gift ever designed to help you make maximum money in minimum time. This free gift comes with almost $20,000 in pure money-making information for free just for saying maybe. You can get this gift from Dan right now at NoBSLetter.com. Not only do you get the $20,000 gift, you also get a subscription to 2 marketing newsletters that will be hand-delivered by the mailman to your mailbox each and every month. One from Dan Kennedy and one from me, Russell Brunson. To get this gift and your subscription, go to NoBSLetter.com right now.