Selling Your Course On The Internet: Lessons From One Of The First To Do It (1 of 2)

Welcome to the Magnetic Marketing Podcast. Today we want to take you into the DeLorean and back in time in order to be able to discover one of the first people to teach a course on how to market online. Today we get to listen to Dan Kennedy and Bill Glazer as they interview Corey Rudy. Corey Rudy started selling online in 1996, and sometimes it is extremely worthwhile to go back to the roots and to the history of what made everything possible in order to help us move forward today. Now, this is just part 1 of a part 2 series, and I am so excited for you to delve into this. Let's get back to the basics and learn the foundations on which digital marketing was founded and the long-lost lessons that you may just need to hear today. Let's listen in.

I don't think there's anybody that has had a bigger impact in the field of direct response than Dan The legend of Dan Kennedy should be ignored at your own peril. They're not really lessons, they're kind of laws that you live by.

Dan opened my eyes to what small business marketing looks like. Dan teaches strategic direct response that is timeless.

His ripple effect touches people who don't even know his name.

The world as we know it was changed because Dan Kennedy became obsessed with marketing.

Welcome to the Magnetic Marketing Podcast with your host, Dan Kennedy. Hello everyone.

This is Bill Glazer and this is another Gold Plus call. Today on the call I have not one but two giants. I've got Dan Kennedy certainly on the call with me, number one giant in marketing, and then also Corey Rudl, who's probably the number one name, I believe, in the world of the internet today. And it's really a fascinating guy that I've gotten to know pretty well the last two years. Because he's a member of Dan's Platinum Group. So first of all, Corey, can you just give everybody a little brief history of who you are? Why don't you start off from humble beginnings and walk them right up to where you are today?

Sure. Thanks for having me on the call, by the way. As far as where I came from, basically I've always been so excited about marketing in general and loving it and reading everything I could back when I was a teenager. I started my first business when I was in my teens and worked up to a couple of businesses. By the time I was in my early 20s, I put this book I had, this car book, on the internet because it was failing offline. It wasn't making any money offline. It was breaking even. I was about to get a job because I had no money left. I invested all the money I made previously into this book which wasn't making any money offline using all the different direct marketing techniques that Dan teaches and other gurus out there.

Just as an observation. I don't think you'd do well in a job.

You're probably right with that. So by going online, this is back in the days of 1994, 1995 when the online was just coming. E-commerce didn't even exist. You couldn't order something online with a credit card. There was no such thing as secure servers. Netscape 1.0 just came out and I had to learn to do everything myself and how to upload a banner and how to build a webpage in HTML 1.0. All that kind of stuff, this techie stuff that seemed really foreign but it became so easy when I realized how easy it was to do. So I went and did that and I tried all these marketing ideas, these direct marketing ideas and just put a little twist on them, this technology twist because people react differently online. It's a different medium. It's a different world out there and it's not like— it's very similar to direct response marketing or I should say direct mail and so on and so on but it's just got a little different twist to it. So we tried a lot of different things that were working in the offline world and applied them online, a lot of which failed and a few of which worked. We just kept rolling out which worked again and again and again, and before long I had a million visitors to my CarSecrets.com site, and people started asking me, "Can you teach me how to do this? Can you teach me how to get all these visitors?" We're like, "Sure." We've been inventing these techniques as we go. We've been trying out banners and ezines and affiliate programs, which weren't called affiliate programs back then. That name wasn't even invented yet. So on and so on, and next thing you know I'm teaching people how to do this on a consultation basis, then it's driven into, "Hey, wait a second. This isn't smart. I can only work so many hours a day." "And if I go on vacation, I don't make any money, so let's dump everything I know into a course and be able to teach not just 2 or 3 people this, but teach hundreds, thousands of people the same stuff and be able to give them more detailed information because you can describe in a 1,000-page course a lot more than you can describe in a couple hours on the phone or even a couple days on the phone." Now Corey, what year did you introduce your first how-to course? The first internet how-to course was back in 1997. Actually, I remember the day. It was the day before Christmas I launched it.

By the way, Dan, I mean, I do— I mean, I hate disagreeing with you, but I do think that Corey would do very well employed as sort of like a speed talker.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

The guy that used to do the FedEx commercials.

Right, right. It might have been Corey, as a matter of fact. All right, so 1997 you introduced your first how-to course.

Yep.

Then what happened?

We just got this incredible great reputation because everybody online was publishing how-to information based on theory, based on what they thought would work, what made sense. But we were publishing how-to information on real results, actually doing the stuff, knowing some of the stuff that other people were publishing was failing and showing the results of that, and then what was working. And having this— basically people could walk in, look exactly what was working or not working, how we changed it, made it work better, and basically model after our success from real-world experience, not some theoretical point of view and we got these incredible testimonials. People were talking about how traffic went up 400%, sales went up 500% in 30 days, they made $50,000 this year extra because of our techniques. We got this great reputation for all these results-oriented testimonials and things just blew up. We just took over the market space very quickly because of that unique point of actually doing it, practicing what you preach rather than just preaching.

So you introduced your first course in '97. Great results, great testimonials, and I know that from what I've observed of you, you've also been a great innovator and creator of different products that people can invest in in order to help their own internet marketing businesses. What are some of your great successes that you've been credited with?

We were probably— although I can't prove this— we've been accredited many times for many people saying that we're the inventors of a two-tier affiliate program. We were doing this back in 1995. A referral program and a sub-referral program, but in essence is what you now call today a two-tier affiliate program. We were doing that back in '95. Some other stuff we've been doing, you know, way before— our idea, just as Dan is, is to be guerrilla marketers, to really do what works rather than what's popular, because what works is what makes you money. And we were doing, you know, pop-ups years before they ever became popular, and of course when they become popular, they become less effective. Same thing with email. We were collecting email addresses and marketing through email when it was not popular. Because that's when it's really effective. All the way through the Internet cycle or what's happened in the last 10 years on the Internet, we've always been ahead of the curve grabbing on and if not inventing, being part of the new thing that isn't known yet and is known 2 years down the road and then becomes less effective. But we roll it out when it's blistering effective.

And I guess the next question I have is, and this is something actually Dan and I have talked about sort of of offline on many occasions. But the one thing about the internet that we find kind of interesting and challenging is the fact that unlike traditional type of offline marketing where there, you know, those of us that have gotten really good at offline marketing, if you go back 30 years ago and you see the people that were good at it 30 years ago, there hasn't been a whole lot of changes in that. But on the internet, what I'm seeing is it's a constant changing scenario. And I mean, you mentioned pop-ups and, you know, pop-ups were a great thing and then all of a sudden everybody figured out how to block the pop-ups. And then I think you guys came along and invented hover ads. How do you find— do you find that as a real challenge, just like sort of keeping up with the changing of that market, that media?

Yeah, definitely. There's some content, constants in internet marketing like copy. You know, you have to know how to write good copy no matter what. No matter what you do in any medium. But they're definitely— the technology changes and you need to be on top. There are certain things, other things like affiliate programs have always been an incredible resource and a phenomenal way to drive traffic to your website and make money online. But then again, things like pop-ups and now things like email are starting to become less effective. Not to say they aren't effective because pop-ups still are. They still make money. And even the way we're doing now with what we call hover ads double those results. However, they're not as effective when nobody knew about them and there's little— this little guerrilla technique.

Why don't you just, for everyone on the call, why don't you just explain what the hover ads— I think most everybody knows what a pop-up is. I hope they do. Why don't you explain what a hover ad is?

Sure. I should qualify something here about pop-ups because people go, "Oh, pop-ups. I will never use that on my website." The quick story behind this is people get upset about pop-ups. People get pissed off at pop-ups if they have nothing to do with what they're surfing about. You go to Yahoo and they're popping up stuff on mortgages and new cars. I mean, it upsets you. It's annoying. But if you go to a website and you are looking for a solution on how to solve your arthritis or whatever it may be, you get a pop-up saying there is a free report on this. You get a pop-up saying you have a solution to this problem, or you have more information on how to solve this problem. It becomes very interesting and you don't even notice that pop-up. You actually want that information. It doesn't come to you as an annoyance. So just be aware of that, number one, pop-ups can be very effective and don't annoy people as long as they have to do with the topic that your website is about. So with that said, back to the hover ad question. Yes, pop-ups now are being blocked over 50% of the time. People can't see them because they're being blocked. The second thing is that people are becoming very— I can't think of the word today— but immune to them. They know what a pop-up looks like. As soon as they see the box come up, before the content even loads inside it, they're clicking the X button to shut it down. So it's becoming very hard to get effectiveness through it. So we developed something called hover ads, which It's for all intents and purposes may come across to you as similar as a pop-up, but it doesn't look like it and it reacts very differently. For example, this little box of any shape and size you want will literally bounce onto your screen or drop from the top or appear, materialize immediately, or disappear immediately. For that fact, it can even count down where it bounces onto your screen, has some kind of offer and says, "This offer is good for 5 minutes and 59 seconds, 58 seconds, 57 seconds," and it just counts down and disappears after the countdown clock goes away, which creates incredible urgency. So these hover ads are designed to basically take over pop-ups in the sense that one, they cannot be blocked, the technology behind it. And the second thing is they attract attention because they're not like— they don't look like that normal pop-up where you have the big Windows window around it with the little X button, the close button. They look very different. They actually don't have a border around it. They're just kind of this blank page or borderless thing that just drops and bounces on your screen that a pop-up doesn't. So it kind of goes— kind of makes you go, "Hmm, what's this?" It makes you pay attention, and half the battle of getting a sale or having someone take action on a pop-up is to make them think, "What's this?" They're interested in it, have some kind of interest in it, and that's what a hover ad does.

Now, you're still strictly an online marketer, is that correct?

Yeah, we generate 100% of our leads right now online except for the odd seminar we may participate in and the odd direct mailing we do, but generally speaking, 95%+ of all of our business comes directly from the internet.

And that's not just leads, that's actual all the way through to the sale, correct?

That's correct, yes.

All right, so let's talk about online opportunities today. You know, the person that's listening to this call right now, one of the things that might be going through their head is, you know, Cory Rudl already beat me to all this, all the other bright guys out there already beat me to all this. They're already making all the big money online. Are there any good opportunities left, any good business ideas left to go online with?

Oh, absolutely. There's no question about that. That is a definite yes. You know, there's people every day that are discovering new opportunities, and part of my goal is to teach people how to find these opportunities, just like, you know, Dan teaches in the direct mail and direct response business in general. You find a hungry, starving market and you feed them what they want or what they need. And it's the same thing applies online. The difference is that online is very easy to congregate everybody from the world that has an interest group. You want to find all the gardeners online or all the hunters online or all the skiers online or all the tulip growers online. It's very easy to find that market and sell to that market if you find something that they're desiring or solving a problem that they're having. So yes, there's— we have actually have a newsletter that we publish every month that interviewed two of our most successful clients. It's called SecretsToTheirSuccess.com. It just talks about the guy that was the janitor, the guy that was the valet, and now making $100,000, $200,000, $300,000, $500,000, a million dollars a year doing the most bizarre businesses. Some of these people are selling soap from their home. Another guy is selling truck bed covers, and he doesn't even own a truck. One 50-year-old grandmother has turned her knowledge of home decorating into a home decorating business and is now in the first 9 months making She's making $5,000 a month selling her home decorating knowledge online. There are people from 20 years old to 60 years old making money online by going after a hungry, starving market, going for a small market, a niche market that everybody doesn't care about but a few people are really passionate about and willing to spend money on whatever you're offering.

If grandma can make the pure e-commerce business work, And you can make the pure e-commerce business work. How come most of the big companies didn't and can't? And like what are the mistakes you avoid that they made?

Well, I mean, we all know the dot-bomb era, you know, when all these companies had these great evaluations of $40 million and they're only making $200,000 in sales. At the end of the day, there's a lot of assumptions that were made wrong back in that day. At the end of the day, you still need a real business. It's ROI. These companies were basing a lot on their business plan, how they had this idea of how they're going to do things rather than proving it can work. They had no real customers, no real sales, just an idea, and somehow people were evaluating those ideas at stupid amounts of return on investment. I had friends that were literally doing $200,000 of business and their company on paper was worth $40 million. Two years later, they're bankrupt because that didn't fly. As far as the number one reason they didn't fly, Why didn't they make any money? To kind of get to answer your question, they didn't worry about ROI. When I go and spend any money online, I want to see a direct return for that money in 30 days, 60 days at the absolute latest. I'm very serious on a short period of ROI. The second thing is I test everything. I don't go out and build these— these guys were building these big brands and having this— trying to build an IBM brand and a Microsoft brand and a Toys R Us brand. At the end of the day,. It really matters of I don't care about branding. I don't want anybody to— I don't spend any money on branding. I spend money on advertising to make sales, and because of that I do brand myself. That's just a byproduct. I go for ROI.

I have a bunch more questions I want to ask you, and as a matter of fact, truth be told, I could probably ask you questions for days. I find this whole thing very fascinating, and I will also tell you that since I took over running levels of Dan's business beginning in January, the amount of business that we're doing online, I have become a great— I've developed a great respect for online opportunities. But what I would like to do is do something a little bit different today if we could. I'd like to sort of intersperse questions within the— from our members interspersed with the questions that Dan and I would like to ask and discuss with you. So Alex, could you let people start queuing up questions and then after doing that I'll get back and I'll ask you a question that I've been burning to ask you now for years. Here's my question for you, Corey. You know, as you know, I own 2 menswear stores in Baltimore and I have no desire desire at all of selling what I sell in my stores online. How would the smart person who has— not me, the smart person who has my kind of a business, how do they look at the internet in order to help their business when they don't want to be selling online?

Right. That's a great question, by the way, because a lot of people are in that boat where they don't want to have a store of thousands of things online that they don't really want to have the administration of that.

No, but they want to promote their regular business, be it chiropractic practice or beauty salon or carpet cleaning company or retail store.

Right. So first thing, besides actually promoting your business and bringing on new leads, let's just talk about a second about maintaining and— I shouldn't say maintaining— is growing your business using a cheap communication method, and that's email. So the first thing, no matter what business you're in, I don't care if you own a grocery store or a dry cleaner. You should be collecting the first name, last name, email address of every single person that goes through your cash register, because that gives you the ability to be able to contact them and stay in communication with them for the rest of their lives. For that fact, build this credibility and build this rapport with them again and again and again for almost zero cost. You can literally be emailing them tip of the month on healthy eating for the grocery store, tip of the month on how to, you know, these different back exercises for the chiropractic business. The list goes on and on, but building this rapport so that When they want to, you come across as experts. When they need the help, they're coming back to you. Two is you can use it for a promotional campaign where you want to drive new business to— I should say drive your customers to your store. It's very easy to do that by having some kind of promotion for these specially preferred customers. And that's one of the ways you can get these email addresses is by letting them know that they are now— if they give you their email address, they're now a preferred customer and they will get special things that nobody else gets. Like a special opening where you normally close your store down at 5 o'clock. Well, before the sale happens tomorrow, I'm going to open my store just for my preferred customers between 5 o'clock and 9 o'clock at night to get all the bargains and pick up the best stuff before we go fully on sale the next day. And these kind of incentives make people want to give you their email address. It also drives a bulk of traffic to you, creates that credibility and creates that rapport with the customer that just brings in more sales and steals business away from your competitors because they want to do business with you because you're treating them special and at a very low cost. I mean, you can send out an email to 500, 5,000 people with a push of one button that's totally personalized and it says, "Hi, John. Thanks for your last visit on blah," whatever the day is, "day. We want to let you know about a sale," yadda, yadda, yadda. "Why don't we know about a new product line we're launching that we're going to launch tomorrow that you can come in and get," yadda, yadda, yadda, and launch new products, launch special occasions, launch sales. The list goes on and on and on of how you can use just email to make more money using your existing business. Getting leads from that, the second part was getting leads for your business is a whole separate deal, but I just want to give you one kind of quick insight of how, why every single person on this call should be doing business online right now just for the email factor, much less anything else.

Well, a couple follow-up questions to that. Number one is you talked about the, I think your terminology was the marketing or the— the something secret of the month. And I have a frequency question for you because, you know, we've been collecting email addresses at my menswear stores now for several years and we actually send out a dress, you know, how to dress properly secret every week. What are you finding as far as frequency? And then I know like another Platinum member, Matt Furys, actually sends out— he's strictly an online business, but he's sending out 2 emails a day. What are your thoughts about for the person who's just not quite sure, hasn't tested it yet, what's the safest way to start off with frequency?

Generally speaking, we've tested this backwards and forwards a ton of different times. I want to quantify this by saying that it's different in every single business. Your business is a little different the way you talk to people, a little different if you're coming across more professionally or more personally, so on and so on. But for us, for our business, we found that sending out one promotion, in other words trying to sell them something once a month and offering information, some kind of pure content with no sales angle to it whatsoever once a month, so 2 emails a month is our minimum. We should be doing that at a minimum. We can get away with 2 of those each being we can promote twice a month and give away content twice a month, so a total of 4 times or once a week. Without any kind of faltering in sales. Actually, that's our maximum return on investment for emails sent. If we start sending more than that, more than one a week, we found personally that our sales start dropping because people start ignoring the email and not paying attention to it because of the frequency. Now, with that said, I know that Matt Fury is doing this and doing two emails a day. His emails are probably, and what I've heard, is a lot more personal, being he's talking about what he ate for breakfast and Creating a great relationship with these people. You can also work it the other way where there's another company I know sending emails every day that are all promotionally based emails where they're trying to sell them something every single day. Their list is 400,000 people big, but when they send out a promotion they're lucky to get 50 sales from something because nobody reads the email because they're getting crap every day. They're getting sold something every day. The emails are of no value. It's very important that whatever you do, whatever frequency you do, you have some kind of value that that they look forward to opening the email, that they don't know if this time it's going to be value and content interesting or this time going to be a sales pitch. They don't know that. As long as you keep that balance correct, you'll do fine in whatever business you may be in.

All right, one last question related to this topic, then we'll open it up for a question or two and then come back to some more questions that Dan and I could chat with you about. Using the same model, the chiropractor, the local retailer, you know, the cleaners, whatever. If he wants to also use the internet as a lead generation source for his business, what are some smart things— so now he's gathering leads online and marketing to them with the hopes that eventually that's going to trigger that person to do business with them down the road. What are some smart ways today in order to look at in order to get leads online?

Right. I mean, I could talk a whole day about this stuff, but I'll try to give you some examples. A lot of this is discussed and we have a course on this that talks about a lot of this stuff, but I'll try to give you some quick examples because of our limited time. You could use the internet site as a point of contact where you're doing your offline advertising, whether it be brochures, direct mail, teleseminars.— the list goes on and on and on— advertising in magazines, newspapers, whatever. Those force them to a website that offers free information. You can have a download of an eBook that has value. Now it costs you nothing to have these people download the eBook and capture their first name, last name, email address so you have the ability to be able to follow up with these people again and again and again, but you get them to come to your website by offering some kind of great information. If it's a chiropractor business— and bear with me, I'm not a chiropractor, so I hope I don't I don't want to screw this up, but something along the lines of, you know, have back pain? We have 3 simple steps to solve 90% of all back pain, or whatever it may be. Get this free ebook at www.blank.com, and they go to that website and download the ebook, which you capture their information, and then of course follow up again and again and again with them. That's one way of many ways to do it. You can also use the internet as a 100% lead generation tool by going out, and now there's searches based on geographical area. And you can promote your website just locally to the local community by participating in local forums, local websites like radio stations, TV stations, newspapers, and be advertising or doing some kind of a joint relationship, which in this case I would always do an affiliate program relationship with these people, paying on results, paying on sales, with people to drive local business, local online people to you directly. These are some of the— these are very general, of course, but Just to give you an idea that is definitely possible. It happens all the time.

You know, I want to follow up on something that you talked about earlier, and this is a real example that happened to me within the last month, which is we were running an event in our stores, and because of something out of our control, our direct mail piece was a disaster. And we had to act quick. One of the nice things about the email is it allows you to move on a dime. We actually used two technologies that allow you to do that. One was email and the other was voice broadcast. In both cases, we were able to do a lot of damage control by being able to use those media that allow you to be able to move so quickly. Alex, do we have a question or two in the queue?

Yes? Hey, Cory. Question I have for you, it's a pretty general question but I'm going to give it a shot anyway. I've got an offline business right now and I have a couple of ideas that I am looking to take online but ultimately I have really no idea if it will fly online. So I guess my question to you is how do you go about finding out what the viability is of a business opportunity? How do you know people are actually looking for it on the internet? That's a great question because there are tools out there that allow you to actually confirm before you actually build this website or start selling your product online if the market is there, if that hungry, starving market is there and wants your product or service. There are a couple of websites I'm going to give you here, so people have pen and paper if you want to write these things down. One is called wordtracker.com. This is actually a service you can go in and find out how many people are searching on a particular keyword or phrase. If you're in the aviation business or the gardening business, hunting business, whatever it may be, whatever you're selling, whatever your keywords are for that, if you're in the chiropractic business, back pain, chiropractor services for Seattle, so on and so on. These are the kind of things you want to punch into Wordtracker, and Wordtracker will tell you how many people are searching these things on the searches, how popular is it. That will give you an idea about that. It will also tell you— Wordtracker will tell you how many competing websites you have on those same keywords, which is really great. You can see how much business is out there and are you—

is it already saturated.

Okay, Dan, do you have any questions or any comment you'd like to ask?

Well, I make a I'll just make a couple of points about what Cory said so far. First of all, you know, your last question about, you know, really using it for a, if you will, an ordinary business. I mean, one of the things that I keep seeing done a lot that I like, and I'll just make the point and then Cory, you can comment. I mean, I talk to people all the time about, The idea that if you want responsive customers, you train them to respond. And so with a variety of media, all the ways you communicate to them, you want to encourage them to be coming back to you and asking for additional information about this, that, or the other thing. And so whether it's a paper and ink newsletter or a postcard of the month or however it is you communicate with your customers, you know, you want that bounce-back effect. And one of the things that seems extremely effective to me and also has the virtue of being cheap to the point of nearly free is the email that drives them back to a site to get something. And it seems to me that any business again can use this strategy, be they dry cleaner, Butcher, baker, candlestick maker.

Yeah, I couldn't agree anymore. The internet gives you the ability to be able to give someone information that before you had to send an audio tape, CD, report, and mail it and cost you money. Now you can deliver that same information for free, which brings your lead cost down to so inexpensive, which will allow you to make some mistakes and still make money. So there's definitely some advantages of doing that for sure. My two favorite things about having some— any kind of business, specifically offline businesses moving online, are those two things. The one you just mentioned, Dan, which is driving people to the website to capture that information so you can start communicating with them for a very low cost and giving them great value for a very low cost. The second way is once you capture that information is continue to communicate with them and offer them that value. And promotions and so on, and keep driving them back to the site and driving them for more business for all intents and purposes, nothing. It costs you nothing to do this. The beautiful thing about email is if you really screw it up, you know, like you send an email and it doesn't get any response, it's like who cares? Because you just go and literally figure out what went wrong and build another email and send it out again. It didn't cost you anything to make that first mistake, which is for people that are beginners at this or concerned about the cost involved in In marketing to someone, it allows you to make a lot of mistakes and still make money. It's incredible.

Now Corey, you mentioned the term affiliates, and I mean, I'd like you to, if you could, just for anyone who's not familiar with it, define exactly what that is, what an affiliate program is, and tell everybody a little bit about how, you know, by using your— you know, where your affiliate program is today in terms of size and scope.

And what that's meant to your business.

Oh yeah, for sure. I'll just stay with this. Before we even talk about affiliate programs, let me state how powerful they are. They are the hottest, the most risk-free, the best way to promote your business on the internet, bar none. The only key to affiliate programs is you need to make sure that your site converts well before you get heavily involved in affiliate programs. In other words, you need to make sure you have some kind of traffic and you know that your site is converting visitors into leads or visitors into sales, however you've chosen to have your site. The goal of your site is to take one action, get them into a lead and put them in the funnel, or get them into a sale and buy that first product and then back into all your other products and services to them. So the affiliate program literally is this. This is the easiest way to explain it. It is like having a marching army of people out there selling your products and services at no cost to you until they make a sale. It's like having a marching army of commissioned salespeople that are technically working for you on behalf of you that you don't have to worry about or deal with or have any kind of communication with until they make a sale.

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