Social Media Direct Response Marketing With Kim Walsh Phillips

Hello and welcome to the Magnetic Marketing Podcast. Today we're going to be listening to Dan Kennedy as he speaks to the primary author of the No BS Guide to Direct Response Social Media Marketing and social media queen, Kim Walsh Phillips. Now, how far can you take these direct marketing principles? Do they belong just inside of direct mail? No, you can use them inside of email. You can use them on set of online marketing. You can use them inside of social media. But how do you do that? Kim is going to reveal the 3 levels of direct response marketing you want to use, especially inside of Facebook. Number 1, so that way you reach your audience. Number 2, so that way you're not creepy. And number 3, how far do you take this through the entire customer journey in order to make sure that your customer not only feels understood but is also incentivized to take action? Listen as Dan and Kim talk about the marketing and data extraction opportunities that are available from Facebook. Plus the key dos and don'ts for leveraging the platform to produce the most optimal results. Let's listen in.

I don't think there's anybody that has had a bigger impact in the field of direct response than Dan Kennedy.

The legend of Dan Kennedy should be ignored at your own peril.

They're not really lessons, they're kind of laws that you live by.

Dan opened my eyes to what small business marketing looks like.

Dan teaches strategic direct response that is timeless.

His ripple effect touches people who don't even know his name.

The world as we know it was changed because Dan Kennedy became obsessed with marketing.

Welcome to the Magnetic Marketing Podcast with your host, Dan Kennedy. Good afternoon, everybody. Welcome to the Diamond Call. In just a minute, we'll get to my guest, Kim Walls Phillips. Adarian Wilson Wilson, who's listed as co-author but really is primary author of the forthcoming No BS book, all about direct response uses of social media, in which she is expert and unusual truth teller. On the call, of course, I am dealing with things I deal with by application but not by personal use or observation. But as was said at one point in a seminar room in Hawaii at Joe Sugarman's estate by a QVC marketer, he explained to everybody that particularly an executive from Microsoft that it wasn't necessary for him to know how the broadcast signal got from the QVC studio to Martha's house to sell her a pair of shoes in order to sell a lot of shoes.. And it wasn't really necessary for me to know how to cut down a tree, run it through a sawmill, and make paper in order to do direct mail. So I feel exactly the same way about this. So Kim, thank you and welcome to the call.

Thanks for having me, Dan.

Many Diamond members, of course, know you, know of you already, do business with you, interact with you at events, and so forth. There's always something new going on in the online world because Zuckerberg and his brethren don't lose any sleep thinking up ways to change the game. So we have one particular very direct response related thing to talk about on, at least first on this call. In connection to Facebook. But before we do that, even though people have met you and would know you on site, they might not know your, not all the way back to the womb, but story of who you are and how you got here and how you came to be queen of social media. So I'll let you do your own introduction and resume thing, if you would?

Sure. So I'm one of those folks who back in the day I was a fluffy PR person. We did PR and brand building.

You were fluffy or you were doing fluffy PR?

Fluffy PR. Oh, okay. Yes, it was pre-kids, so I was less fluffy then. So the— we were doing PR and awareness building and it was awesome and we got people to feel good, got those endorphin rushes because they would get their name in the paper. But it was complete fluff in that it wasn't trackable. It wasn't measurable. I couldn't tie it to direct sales, so we were always struggling because we would lose accounts and then my answer to making payroll was to go out and sell a new client that week. And it was a consistent work harder and harder torture when I couldn't work any harder. Our finances would fall apart. And I went through declaring bankruptcy, hawking an engagement ring to make payroll, using health clinics because I couldn't afford health insurance. It was a tough— it was 10 years of really tough times.. And it wasn't until I discovered your book, Dan, the direct response marketing book, The Guide to Direct Response Marketing for Non-Direct Marketing Businesses.

Is that correct? Yeah.

Close enough. Close enough. So that's enough that you can get it on Amazon right now by using that title. That was my game changer because all of a sudden I discovered how marketing could equal sales, how you can track it, how you can measure it, how you can control your future. Of course, You, Dan, have never been a huge fan of social media. So there wasn't a direct path for me to take what you were teaching and apply it to social. And you also weren't that much of a fan of women with hyphenated last names.

But I went forward. I'm still not that much of a fan, present company excluded.

Of course. Of course. So I moved forward in spite of those two factors. That shows you don't let obstacles stop you. They just climb a little bit higher to get over them.. And I started applying the direct response marketing principles I was learning for YouToSocial and it began to change our business. I remember the first time I got a client inquiry from LinkedIn, someone I'd never met before and he saw— he found me and reached out to me just because of my post. And that continued to happen and we applied it to our clients and really developed a system based on what we had discovered and what was working. And it worked so well that we went from a struggling agency to multimillion dollars. Our client base increase from local restaurant mom-and-pop shops to national brands and many of GKIC's fine members to now being able to allow me the opportunities to really work from anywhere because we have a system in place that I can onboard and scale team members at a moment's notice. So it's been an awesome ride and I am super stoked to share with those of you listening to the call or the recording to follow about how to take Facebook marketing and apply direct response marketing principles to drive exact sales?

Okay, so there's sort of 3 levels of marketing and they get more advanced and sophisticated as we go through the levels. So there is mass marketing, some sort of generic and universal message, hopefully well-crafted, that is basically broadcast or very broadly distributed to an audience. That if we run a full-page ad in the New York Times, that's a very broad audience. If we run it in a dental trade journal, it's still It's not that broad, but it's still broad. The next level is customized messages to segments of a list, to groups of a market, to a particular audience. I was on the phone earlier today with an industrial marketer who really markets to systems engineers but was able to describe their personal profile, which helps a lot— age, Most of them are religious, most of them are fiscally conservative, etc., etc. And so messages can be customized to them. The next level that is often the hardest to achieve is personalized, which now goes beyond customized and is really targeted to an individual, a particular person. Way back, this was simulated. Probably the first attempts to simulate it were Reader's Digest and Publishers Clearing House figuring out how to drop names in all the way through a sales letter. So every third or fourth sentence or so would start with Kim, comma, and Halbert who was the first to reverse engineer name directories and create marketing just for last names. So a particular product could be sold to all the Phillips in the world and another product to all the Kennedys in the world, etc., etc. And as the Virginia Slims ad campaign said, we've come a long way, baby. But still the attempt is to be personalized or to appear personalized. And that really is where you and Facebook step in. You have been telling me of late that there are more and more opportunities to really be very personalized with marketing messages through using Facebook. And everybody on the call should be interested in that. Some undoubtedly already are engaged, but many are not. So why don't you give us the mini seminar on that?

Sure, my pleasure. And interestingly enough, 2 weeks ago Pew Research Trust came out with a study they just conducted that 7 out of 10 adults who are online— so this would exclude you, of course— but 7 out of 10 adults who are online are actively engaged at least once a month on Facebook. So, I mean, if you think about the power of that, there is no other channel— while there are channels that can, you know, are very effective for reaching target markets, and we never say you should only be in one channel. You should be in multiple channels. In this space, you could reach potentially 70% of the US population. That's fantastic, except for the fact that you don't ever want to do that. You— they're not— 70% would ever be your customers, right? So we have to get into the personalization in order to really go after your target customer. Now Facebook did something incredible a few years ago and it's just amazing to me that there was less of an uproar about it, but I just think people didn't fully understand it and that's why there wasn't. Because this is incredibly creepy for consumers but amazingly powerful for marketers. And that is that Facebook is tied into data mining companies, DataLux, Experian, and they're targeting credit card mining. So if you ever use a credit card, your behaviors are being tracked. And now that tracking of what you were doing, where you live, where you travel to, what you buy, what you subscribe to, what television program you watch because your cable company is also tracking that, you now can tie that into your ad for Facebook, okay? And so let's say, Specifically, well, and let me back up. You can actually pull that data about your list too, another really powerful thing. So there are companies who make an awful lot of money telling you data points about your list, and they should be nervous because you can now get all that information for free using Facebook's ads platform. Right inside their manager is something called Audience Insights. And when you upload your list to Facebook, they will match email addresses that you have on your list or cell phone numbers that you have on your list with the information that they have about their members and then the information that these third-party data mining companies have, and they will tell you specific factors about your list. So for example, I pulled— now this requires some extra effort, but my philosophy in life is you always walk the extra mile because it's a lot less crowded there, and this is what you can do. Any business listening can do this, and this is going to give you a huge insight into your list. Take your list, your actual buyer list, okay, and you're going to upload that to Facebook and you're going to call that buyers. And then you're going to take your prospect list, maybe it's your email list, okay, so it's a group of people who maybe hear from you weekly or however often you communicate, but they're not all buyers, they're just your overall list. Then you might want to also take your web traffic and maybe then also your Facebook fans depending on, you know, what size of those markets are, but you at least start with your list versus your buyers. Facebook will pull data for you about all these people and create data points for you. What kind of car do they drive? What kind of house do they live in? What kind of purchases do they tend to make? Are they married? Do they own a home? Where do they live? And it will pull these data points and provide them to you if your list is at least 1,000 people big. So you need to have a certain size list. You can then— so what we do is we slice and dice that information. There is nothing that will tell you this automatically, so you actually have to perform this work. But if you took both of those lists and you compared what does our list look like versus our buyer list, you could start to see different pieces that are slightly different. For example, we did this for GKIC because we do all the lead generation for them on social. We were able to determine— so we know if anyone's, you know, gone to any event, you know it's generally members are men, White males age 35 to 55 who are college educated, married, and Christian conservative. That's the general profile. So you could go to an event and basically figure that out. So we have to look what's beyond that. And of course, there are members of many— obviously I'm a member of many different, but that's the general. We found one little cool tidbit was that it's also people who belong to— have frequent flyer status on their airline. They fly enough that they have that status. We found that as a subset market. So now I can go not only to the male 35 to 55 who's married, Christian conservative, and college educated, I can also layer on top of that that they are a frequent flyer, and now I can increase the success of our campaign because I can talk to him specifically about the trials and tribulations about traveling. I could use that in my marketing. I can target him so now I'm not bidding against other people. But the reality is even if you never create a Facebook ad, you can still get this data and you can use this data about your list in all of your marketing.

So here's a general observation about why that is so important. Huge numbers of people do virtually nothing to extract information out of their lists about their buyers or about their prospects. I mean, they don't do anything. So here's something you can do without leaving the house. It's important because if you make a macro leap to talking about wealth and you want to play Napoleon Hill-like game and try and identify 8, 10, 12, 17, 20 commonalities that really wealthy entrepreneurs and marketers have that others don't. One would be they operate with a lot of knowns. In fact, my experience is The more knowns somebody brings to the table, particularly about their customers and about their unconverted leads, the more money they make. The less knowns they have, the less money they make. I will discourage someone from becoming a client. Without telling them why, hopefully without them knowing they're being discouraged, when it is evident to me that they don't have very many knowns, because that means my job, my work is going to be difficult and it's going to be experience-based guesswork. When somebody has a lot of knowns, I jump to— I exert a little extra effort to get them. Because I know I'm going to be able to, uh, to be successful with them. So what you've just described, um, and I think of an important point is you don't have to be using Facebook as an ad media in order to use Facebook as this sort of a data extraction media.

Um, clearly, why wouldn't I've never seen anybody do this. Yeah, exactly. And then the other piece of it is, and this is again another place, so a lot of people will do this once, but they'll never do it again. And your audience changes, and the data that Facebook is able to extract continues to get more sophisticated. So if you begin down this path and you want to begin to really find out the minutia about your list so you can be incredibly effective with speaking to them directly, put yourself on a schedule to do this once a month because we have seen data points shift that often on our lists based on not only your list changing but the data that Facebook is able to pull.

It's a fairly safe bet as we watch the presidential circus that most of the political operations tied to candidates and to PACs are doing this with all of their Facebook activity. And then it migrates back into issues you pick to talk about, positions you take, ways you talk. And so see, the link between— so a lot of people, well, okay, I get this data, now how do I use it? And you described it correctly. It's not necessarily that you're going to use it to go get prospects. So the frequent flyer status piece is not necessarily useful, for example, in list acquisition. It might suggest airline magazines as print media, but But even if it's not used in that way, it's used in conversational messaging, right? Because what they have in common is they spend enough time on airplanes and in airports and being TSA groped, presumably traveling in part to go do manual labor, selling or speaking or whatever. Knowing that allows us to craft messages more precisely in common with their daily life experiences. This is tools for copywriting, even if it is not tools for list or media selection.

Yeah, absolutely. Then if we get into, which I'd love to go here with this, and that we get into, let's say we actually are going to move forward and say, you know what, it makes sense for lead acquisition to go I'm going to go after new people to use Facebook's tools in order to reach more of the same that I've had so far. Well, then we get into creating your ads. And I do want to make a few points on this so we don't get people getting in trouble on Facebook. Facebook recognizes that they are an incredibly powerful tool, but they also recognize that that power can be very creepy to consumers. So you can't tell people that you know all this about them in an ad. So you gave that example of, you know, the t-shirts being personalized or the flag or the emblem, right? The crest. Well, there was a while there where people were running those ads directly to people, so it would be a Philips t-shirt that I would see in my newsfeed. You know, that really creeps people out. Even though we can do that now, you're not allowed to do that anymore. So you cannot tell them why they're being targeted with an ad that has a similar image. So I can pull an ad right now, like I'll give you an example. One of the things that we've done is LASIK surgery ads towards men who are divorced and are currently in the market for a sports car. We have advertised LASIK surgery for them. Well, I can't, I can put an image of a sports car in the ad. I can talk to him, I can talk to him if you're, you know, you want to enjoy this phase of your life without glasses. I can talk to him about that, but I can't say, say, hey, guy just got divorced, in the market for a sports car, here's something else that might be interesting. Like, you can't tell them that's the case in a more—

if I can— more often than not, yeah, being that overt doesn't work either, right? Yeah. Um, and I've run the same experiments offline with lists, um, and So for example, I had a client several years ago in the skincare business, not Guthy-Renker, and essentially selling very pricey $500 and up facelift in a box done at home glop by direct mail drive to a phone room. And we had a celebrity endorser. And so I ran the experiment of birthdays and birthday months, which in and of itself does bump response for something like skincare. Probably would for Lasix. I don't have any data to tell you that, but probably. Certainly women with skincare and cosmetic dentistry and so forth. The month of their birthday, particularly benchmark birthdays, 40, 45, 50, 55, 5s and 10s, they are far more sensitive to the mirror than they are randomly at other times. So we ran the experiment of taking the same list they were already using that were productive, segmenting them by birthday month, and the first thing I tried was overt a really nice birthday card arriving from the celebrity fully acknowledging that obviously we knew this was your birthday month and from the female celebrity in her voice talking about paying attention to the mirror more in a birthday month than any other time. And here's your birthday gift, a collection of free samples, yada, yada, yada, and all you have to do is call. Well, we got calls, but we got as many or more either creeped out or angry than we did constructive. So the change was to still segment the list by the birthday month and still arrive in the birthday month, but not arrive with a piece that in any way revealed we knew we were arriving in their birthday month. We just showed up with the best marketing message we had at exactly the right time. And I could give you 20 other sort of overt versus subtle tests, and in the overwhelming majority of the cases, the overt unsettles people too much. To really be effective anyway. And so in this case, the Facebook prohibition that you've described is really probably a good discipline imposed rather than a handicap.

Yeah, it is. And interestingly enough, that's a category you can target on Facebook. It has a birthday in the next 30 days. And we've used that successfully to target women on cosmetic dentistry. So yeah, that's an effective category. You can also do has an anniversary in the next 30 days, so that's another targeting category. But to even take it a little bit further, so one of the clients we have does— sells medical diabetic testing supplies. And in the beginning, we were putting something in like suffering from diabetes or diabetic. We couldn't— you can't put anything health-related in your ads either. So I mean, the reality— what's nice about Facebook, there was this like uproar back in February when they changed all the rules. They didn't tell anyone. They shut down a bunch of accounts all at one time. It was a really poor way for them to clean up the system because there were bad things happening in there. Like, it was an effective medium, so there was shenanigans. But they then went and made very, very clear guidelines that are all on their guidelines page. They give wording examples, visuals, and they actually created a system to talk directly to their ads reps. We had 3 accounts shut down in February, actually GKIC being one of them. And we had them all since, you know, pretty shortly thereafter, all of them were turned back on, all the accounts were reopened, and we can talk directly to them. They just want you to follow the guidelines. So, and they don't take the "I didn't know any better" as an answer. You can know better. Follow the guidelines, you know. But going on with that, when you're— the thing that we see a lot of people do, and I know, Dan, you and I have talked about this quite a bit, is that you can target in your ad set. You can target an audience. And I see a lot of folks targeting an audience and even targeting them in an ad. They will create an ad for reaching for a new boot camp, maybe women of 45 and over. They are picturing, they are putting someone in the ad that looks like her. They are talking about her taking time for herself, so that's all good. But then when you go to the landing page and you get the follow-up emails, they are still being really general. They are trying to reach everybody. They don't take that personalization optimization all the way through the funnel. And that's a huge opportunity to apply the principles that you teach, Dan, the direct response marketing principles to the entire campaign to really increase those results. And that's something just most folks are not doing.

Yeah, it's big and it— and front-end advertising and marketing often gets blamed for this this mess behind it, and it is the disappointment factor whenever something switches from customized or personalized to generic. The disappointment factor is huge. So if you have done marketing as a dental practice about Invisalign, and that drives now into a website and a marketing funnel that is about everything dentistry at that dental practice. The disappointment factor of the parent who was interested in Invisalign for son or daughter at the point that that happens is so enormous that in the majority of the cases they turn their back and leave, and they may wind up late doing business with another generalist. But you— with you, when you let that switch happen, they felt conned because, hey, you said you were a specialist. It turns out you're a jack of all trades. And they feel horribly disappointed. So any sort of customized or personalized marketing needs its own dedicated media, online and offline. So its own website, its own video sales letter, its own follow-up steps. Its own version of a book if a free book is being given away. And at whatever point you stop that and you sort of merge the lanes into one road that everybody can drive on, and therefore anybody can drive on, you face this disappointment damage. And so the further back we can get somebody to put it— so that they have already firmly established a relationship with this prospect, customer, client, patient, donor, the better. And the closer to the front it is, the more damaging it is. And people, you're right, do this all the time. And then they tend to affix the blame for unsatisfactory results in the wrong place. So they would, in this case, with you, they would tend to blame Facebook per se. Uh, well, the Facebook advertising doesn't work. Um, no, it's what you fed with the Facebook advertising that made the Facebook advertising not work.

Yeah, Facebook will not fix a broken business model, and I've had to say that sentence way too many times.

Yeah, right. Nor will any other front-end media. Right. So, so it really doesn't— see, the, the strategic principle here is the same. If I do a Valpak coupon all about, um, acne treatment for teens, and the Valpak coupon drives to a place of business that when you walk through the door is a general dermatologist's office with every kind of dermatology obviously practiced, or it drives to a website that is a general dermatologist website with 16 buttons on it to click whether you have acne or you have psoriasis or you have earlobe rash or whatever else you might have. That kills the effectiveness of the— what I just described was a customized Valpak coupon for a customized market segment. You're describing the even more sophisticated personalized or semi-personalized, and when that disappointment factor rears its head, it's really damaging. And I, I I am often undecided about whether the sort of the refusal to get this and apply it is based on not understanding or it's based on sloth and unwillingness, you know, to do the work. But there's no doubt that whatever that front-end piece is is severely hampering if it feeds from customized or personalized into generic. We might ask what a couple other major mistakes are that people make either with social media marketing per se or with the movement of the social media-generated prospect into a funnel.

Yeah. So a big one that I see happening over and over again is also interesting to me. You know, we don't— you talk so many— so often about lead generation tools, right? You're going to put a magazine ad in to offer a free book or a guide, and that's all about determining the qualified lead, which will then be put into your funnel to convert them into a sale. You're not going to sell a $10,000 to $20,000 consulting package on a magazine ad. People get that. They understand that concept. Yet when it comes to Facebook, somehow they want to go directly from a cold lead into a very expensive sale, and it just doesn't work. And Facebook doesn't want you to do that. They— and I'll send you a copy of the study, Dan. They just did another study on conversion lift and how conversions increased or decreased when they combined nurture ads in front of a direct response ad.. And they used a website called Wix. It's one of these sites that helps somebody who doesn't have design background build a website quickly. And they found that those that added the nurture type emails, almost branding type ads in front of an ad that was asking for an opt-in, in front of an ad that was asking for an offer, did it much better. Their cost per lead acquisition decreased. Their quality of customer increased. Their conversion rate increased. And so again, not unlike other direct response response marketing, people can— you say, often I've used the phrase, people try to get folks to go a bridge too far. You have to nurture them. It's these small micro-commitments that get people from a cold lead on Facebook into a sale. Facebook wants you to do that. In fact, they charge you less for ads when you're just showing content. You don't want to just show content all the time because that's not going to produce sales, but that should be the first step in developing a sale. So, first stage would be as simple as a blog post, a blog post that's not general, that's very specific about your target market. For example, I was talking to someone last week at a speaking event and he said that he does an e-commerce platform, actually in India, for female entrepreneurs who want to get onto selling their crafts online. And he had created an eBook as his first starting point about business practices, best business practices. And we said— and I was talking to them, no, you want to get even more specific. You want to get to 5 tools women crafters should use when they're— to make their first sale online. So you get really specific because that's who he's looking for, female crafters who want to sell online. So you want that first blog post to be really, really specific to your target market. And then what you're going to do once they've gone to that first piece, and Facebook will charge you very little money to send people there, 10 cents, 5 cents, 20 cents a click to get to that piece. It costs more to get them to opt in, so you retarget. You send them a— so just like on email, you'd send them a second email. Just like on direct mail, you send them a second piece. On this case, you're sending them a second ad, and you're going to now show them an ad to opt in. And that's where your funnel can begin. But if you try to start with the opt in or the sale right up front, you're going to be charge more and you're not going to be nearly as successful because you're trying to reach too many people who are not potentially your target customer.

Well, you know, I've always told people you have to— so you have to do a couple of things to avoid asking people to take leaps rather than walk across a bridge. First of all, you have to have a bridge, but beyond that, you have to determine how high or low a trust environment you are operating in. And so an environment where you are a known entity, so let's take Fisher Investments and Forbes. So Fisher has a column in Forbes every month. He's been there I don't know how long, but a long time. And so For him to do something now that is fairly leapy, um, on Forbes.com, um, it makes perfect sense. Um, now if you're somebody nobody knows from Adam's house cat and you show up in the same place, you don't get to be as leapy. So it's about the environment you're in. And whether or not there's any pre-existing, uh, relationship or awareness or trust. And you know, what you've just described is a fairly low-trust environment and somebody who probably, um, does not have pre-existing relationship with the people that he is trying to move to him.. So for him to do very baby step kind of approaches makes perfect sense. There's also the Taubman threshold resistance issue. And you know, we often say that the lowest threshold is a free offer, but that's actually not true. The lowest threshold is just free content, period. Then a slightly higher threshold is exchange of information in order to get something free. And lastly, a lot of people in their own businesses grossly underestimate how scary or intimidating or worrisome they are to the people they are asking to move toward them. None of us really look in the mirror and see an ugly, scary beast looking back at us unless we've dressed that way for Halloween. But the marketplace sees us that way a lot. Things we take for granted are off-putting and anxiety-raising to them. I've never had a problem with baby steps. I've always had a problem with too many steps that don't merge into an actual selling funnel.

But I've never had a problem with baby steps. Exactly. The only way to do any of this effectively is what you talk about consistently. If you're going to get on social media, you have to do that, and that's to measure. Measure and track constantly. Everything should be measured and not based on clicks or comments or likes. Facebook will provide a conversion tracking pixel so you can see 100% who went to a blog and then went to your opt-in page and then became a customer. You can track that from the very beginning and find out exactly how much money it's costing you to get that customer. What's your cost per acquisition? What's the value of the customer? And track the value for their lifetime to make sure that it's a quality customer that makes sense to continue to go after. One additional fun fact I'd love to share. This also goes against conventional wisdom or even what the masses are doing because we always question what are the masses doing. It's probably not right. A lot of folks do a free offer on the front end, so an opt-in of a free report. Or they do a— I know Frank Kern has done this a lot lately, Ryan Dice does this a lot, Jeff Walker, and that's the free book and you only pay for shipping. You pay the $4.95 for shipping. We've tested this extensively now and we have found something completely different to work better than free and better than free plus shipping. It's a dollar offer. So even if you had offered a free report or a CD before for free, test offering it for $1. We've tested this for multiple clients now and we continue to find the $1 offer performs better. I don't understand the psychology and frankly it doesn't matter. We're just finding it's performing better and it's definitely something worth putting into your testing mix. And that's been true for gyms, dentist offices, online marketers, all of them we've tested this dollar offer and it continues to be our best performing offer in their each individual market. I think it's simpler than free plus shipping. I think it offers more value than completely free, but I've not tested any of those reasons, so that's just me guessing and doesn't really matter much.

No, and these things— see, some of the folks you named think they've discovered something with the free, just pay shipping and handling. That's a staple of direct response radio, by the way. Right. And, uh, and the dollar offer is not new either. Um, these things tend to come and go almost in rotation cycles, as in an environment a lot of people adopt them, um, and it becomes commonplace, and then it loses its effectiveness, and one of the other ones, uh, rise, rise up.. And so you really ought always be testing different versions of the initial low threshold offer. The other thing that we have always done with media and you might very well find ways to do on an even more targeted basis in this environment is free $1, free shipping and handling, these things would vary based on the audience, the media, the prospect. Whether you do it free or you require money for it in many cases depends on how well qualified the prospect base you're pulling from is in the first place. And so that almost could be applied on an individual basis in this environment. Do some quick examples. Give me a B2B example. If you can name the client, fine. If you can't, that's okay too. But a B2B example and a to-consumer example. Of something that you're making work real well for them right now?

Oh, sure. Yep. So for Sandler Sales Training, the funnel specifically is identifying companies who are looking for sales training for their staff and managers. And for that, we developed a free report on LinkedIn, using LinkedIn for prospecting, better prospecting. And that was the front-end offer to get a lead who's then putting into a nurture sequence in order to develop sales conversations. That's the other thing, you have to determine what makes the most sense for your selling. Often you're, most of the time, unless your product is $97 or less, the sale will not happen on Facebook. The sale will happen someplace else. So you're just putting them into the nurture sequence. So that would be an example of determining a front-end offer that makes sense for your audience and is very specific to their needs. And then on consumer, I'm saying which one I'll focus on. I'm going to do the gym example. On the gym example, we have found a front-end offer that's something to purchase works much better than giving them something for free. So we've even done like $89 boot camp offers and those have worked well. But again, it's not the first time they're hearing from them. They've seen a couple of ads just offering content workout tips. Recipes, and then when we go to send them to a video about a front-end offer, they have to purchase it right on the page. So we're only sending people who are warm leads to that page in order to convert them into a sale. There's another underlying reason why you want to do that, by the way, and that's Facebook wants to maintain their user experience because they know if people hate using Facebook, they lose their entire model for revenue because there's no people there. There's nobody to advertise to. So you get rated on something called the relevancy score. And relevancy score is the number of positive comments you get, like people are saying good things about the ad, or they're commenting or liking or clicking through to your site, versus negative things. People are writing negative comments. They're marking their ad, I don't want to see this anymore. The colder your audience is, the more negative responses you're going to get. If you get too many negative responses, Facebook can shut you down. So if you warm your audience up first with content, get them to know you, not only do you have a higher chance of converting, but you also have a higher chance of getting positive reviews on your ad, which will maintain the relationship with Facebook, and they will charge you less per click, because they only want to show ads to folks who are having a positive experience. So it's a little— it's not as Wild West maybe as some other media channels. Google went through this, I know, a few years ago with their changing rules, and it's very similar in that way. You maintain a positive relationship, you warm up your audience first, you're going to have a much better response on the backend. Cool.

All righty. Kim, thank you very much for your time.

My pleasure. Great interview.

All right. Thanks, Dan.

Always a pleasure.

Okay. Bye. Bye.

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