The Information Marketing Solution

One of the things that Dan Kennedy has been known for for years is being a pioneer in the idea of info marketing. Now, info marketing is a very different and unique niche for a lot of businesses. A lot of businesses have never touched this before. You may be in that bucket, or you may have your entire business in info market and not realize the shoulders you're standing on. Now, whether you are swimming in the sea of info marketing, this is all you do, or you have a brick-and-mortar or a service and you're not quite sure if info products are really what you should go for. Let's listen to the man himself talk about why you should make the leap. Welcome to the Magnet Marketing Podcast. Today's episode, we get to listen to Dan Kennedy as he talks about the solutions that info marketing creates. All right, now a lot of us look at info marketing like, oh, the headaches. There are solutions that it provides, and he's going to go through several Q&As that you might have rattling around your head with actual customers. I'm a brick-and-mortar business. I haven't really jumped in. What kind of research should I be doing? When do I know if my info product is actually good enough to launch, or if anyone's really going to care? And am I really in the right place, or am I rushing? This is the time to pay attention and to make the leap. Let's listen into The Info Marketing Solution with Dan Kennedy.

I don't think there's anybody that has had a bigger impact in the field of direct response than Dan Kennedy.

The legend of Dan Kennedy should be ignored at your own peril.

They're not really lessons, they're kind of laws that you live by.

Dan opened my eyes to what small business marketing looks like. Dan teaches strategic direct response that is timeless.

His ripple effect touches people who don't even know his name.

The world as we know it was changed because Dan Kennedy became obsessed with marketing.

Welcome to the Magnetic Marketing Podcast with your host, Dan Kennedy. Good afternoon, everybody. Welcome to the Diamond Call and acknowledge that this is an odd and unusual Diamond Call in that some members will feel that it does not apply and have relevance to them, and some of them may even be right. It is a call all about Information Marketing. So today's call is titled The Info Marketing Solution, and I'm going to just take a few minutes to sort of rattle off the things that it can be the solution to, and then this will predominantly be a Q&A call. I ask that you restrict your questions to the area of information marketing. So the solutions. So first of all, for many people, entry into infomarketing, the building of an information marketing business of one kind or another becomes a solution to limitations of their core business. And often people have tighter limitations in their own mind about their core business than actually exists. But for many, there are real limitations. They may be because it is a brick-and-mortar that serves a local market. They may be because there is such commoditization and price competition that they— are as a practical matter forced to operate a very low margin business. There may be other kinds of boundaries. There may be great regulatory and compliance interference. I work with clients who are for example registered investment advisors and they operate in a particularly painful environment. For many people, information marketing takes them out of some limited place and allows them to play in a much bigger sandbox. And often you see it driven by an increase in skill. So a lot of times people's sort of evolutionary path in as a GKIC member is they come in with some struggling or moderately successful or successful quote, quote ordinary business. It has gotten to a certain point without them being very knowledgeable about advertising and marketing. In some period of time on our planet, they get smarter and smarter and smarter and more interested and engaged in advertising, marketing, and selling. And pretty soon on a 1 to 10, their skill level with all of those things is an 8 or a 9, but the size and scope of their opportunity is still a 3. And so this is a way to escape some limitations. Similarly, For some, it's a solution to restrictions of their core business. And restrictions are sort of rule of law that outside and external influences literally dictate what you can do. A distribution network dictates what you can do. People— manufacturers who sell through distribution networks and retailers. Often find themselves restricted in how they can acquire end-user information, what they can do with it when they get it, so various and sundry kinds of restrictions that infomarketing liberates them from. A third way that it solves a particular problem for a lot of business owners is that their core business locks up a lot of money. It requires capital, particularly during growth stages. Income has to be reinvested as additional capital because growth requires more square footage, more equipment, more people, and so for at least some period of time it proves pretty difficult to take a significant amount of money out of that business. In some cases, business owners are 3, 5, 7, 10 years away from an exit strategy, and for that reason they are rolling income back in as capital. And so while they may have a very successful business on their hands, they may not have a very good take-home income on their hands, and infomarketing as a second business proves to be a solution to that problem because many information marketing businesses are more about income than they are equity. They can certainly be structured and operated as all about income and not about equity. Their margins often make it possible to take a much higher amount of money off the table personally than a lot of traditional businesses do. I have a number of information marketing clients with everything from small to large info marketing businesses where there is a 20%, 25%, 30%, 35% bottom line. And even taking half of that is 3 times what many people can take from traditional retail, manufacturing, even service businesses. Info marketing can also be a solution to adverse or threatening trends that are affecting the core business, particularly if they don't arrive overnight but you see them coming and have a reasonable opportunity to react to them. There are categories of business that are legitimately threatened and being damaged by, at least domestically, by a shrinking middle class, by being Amazoned, in some cases viciously and rapidly Amazoned, by changes in consumer behavior that are not going to reverse themselves anytime soon. And so people may be in a core business where there are very limited positive reactions to negative trends. And a move into infomarketing usually has, at least in the beginning, as a second business can be a solution to that. There is for many the problem of on-time retirement. So if you are generally in my age neighborhood, an awful lot of business owners, professional practice owners, company owners are bumping up against 3 realities or at least some of the 3. One, many had— who had accumulated assets had some real reversals of assets. In the 2008 crash have not yet fully recovered from those reversals, and we're counting on continued accumulation for on-time retirement. Many have less value in their regular business than they hoped. As it gets closer to exit day, doctors, lawyers, business owners sort of come to grips with reality rather than fantasy of how exit can be accomplished, whether cash can be had or you get to move from business owner to banker but paid over time and at continuous risk. There aren't as many buyers as one thought. In some industries there's massive consolidation going on. So there's a glut of businesses being sold and only a few acquirers, and so less value in the regular business. And then third, a growing realization that you really don't want to retire in the traditional way that dad retired. Your idea is not one of rocking chair on the porch, but on the other hand, you don't want to continue with a business that sort of acts like an ankle chain, which brings us to another thing that infomarketing can solve, which is lifestyle interference. There is probably no other industry that offers so much mobility, portability, flexibility in turning it on and off, in cranking it up and down, in where you do it, when you do it, how you do it, with whom you do it, in allowing you to dictate terms of engagement, create periodic big income events, create steady autopilot income from evergreen assets that don't have to be fooled with day to day. I don't know of another industry that offers the same extent of all of these lifestyle benefits. And the last thing that I would mention that it can be a solution to is simple boredom. Many business owners— I had a client yesterday with me, as a matter of fact, who had left one business simply because it had become boring. Like factory work. It was more profitable, but it was really repeating exactly the same thing again and again and again, day in, week in, month out. And information marketing by its very nature offers a whole broader range of activities, can accommodate a much broader range of creativity. It can allow you to delegate things that don't interest you and really engage in things that do interest you. So— and many businesses don't really give you as much opportunity to do that. You are forced to continue to do things that don't interest you. Delegation is impractical or impossible or unaffordable. So infomarketing can be a good solution to any or all of those things, and a great many people migrate to it, often beginning with it as their second business, many keeping it as their second business for long periods of time. And those are all good reasons to look at this industry. All good reasons to be in this industry and if you're not, all good reasons to investigate this industry. So with that said, I am happy to entertain questions and topics of conversation related to info marketing from everybody that's on the call.

Okay, our first question is going to come from Linda. Linda, your line is open. Dan, I've been a follower of yours for a long time. I have a brick-and-mortar business and I have a lot of the tools 'cause I'm an information marketer wannabe, but I'm not pulling the trigger. How can I get past that? How can I get started?

Well, so for a great many people, nothing actually happens voluntarily. For almost all of us, some things don't happen voluntarily. So one of the quickest ways to get started is to go sign a contract, put down a nice fat deposit on space for a seminar 6 months from now. And when you sign the hotel contract, if you've never done such a thing, you will see that it has cancellation penalties. That have you paying not only for the room but for all of the revenue the hotel would have had from food booths and sleeping rooms tied to your room. So that'll get you going. Doing some sort of promotion launch limited sale of a product that doesn't exist that is disclosed is going to be delivered 30 days from now, 60 days from now, or is going to be delivered in pieces, that'll get you going. Booking a speaking engagement where your only compensation is selling what you now need to build, that will get you going. Perhaps finding a— ally, a JV partner, a host, that could get you going. The questions to wrestle with are whether your procrastination is more of a practical nature or of an emotional nature. And there's lots of ways to start in this field with very limited exposure. You know, this is not— this is not like, for example, opening a brick-and-mortar business like the one you have with little or no experience in it and hoping it's going to work. And you've signed a 36-month lease. You've bought a bunch of equipment and you've furnished the place and you, you know, a lot of information marketing test marketing can be done as small ball, fairly inexpensively, fairly quickly. And it literally can be done without having— and it can be done legally without having products in the can ready for delivery the same day that they are sold. You can even do legal dry testing by doing marketing only for free stuff. And so from a practical matter, most of the things that would long delay somebody from getting going in many other kinds of businesses really don't exist here or can easily be made to go away. So if the delay is more emotional, then without playing therapist on this call, you probably ought to explore that. But beyond that, I'm actually not kidding about the beginning of my answer, is if you go put a performance and financial gun against your head you will get going, and, and you will get into motion because you will have no choice.

Okay, and then getting past the emotion will get me to actually make that commitment.

You know, somebody who has a, a fear of even modest heights who somehow finds themselves on the wrong side of a chain-link fence with 6 vicious dogs bearing down on them more often than not climbs the fence. And so a whole lot of emotional baggage, self-image issues, fear issues, worry about what people will think, all of that stuff goes away if there's a pack of snarling, vicious, hungry dogs at your heels. And, you know, if you're a successful businessperson, you don't have that economic need translated into snarling dogs, but you can certainly do it with commitments and deadlines.

Thank you. Our next question will come from Dwight. Dwight, your line is open.

Good afternoon, sir. How are you doing?

I'm good, Dwight. You in the bathroom or something? No, no. Stomach upset? You got something going on?

No, I'm coming down with something.

Oh, okay. All right.

Hey, so Brendon Burchard, who will be at InfoSummit, in his book, The Millionaire Messenger, describes, I think, 3 types of experts: the results expert, the research expert, and the role model. And teaches how they could each become an information marketer. So the two BGs, Bill Glazer and Bill Gough, are probably, to my knowledge, two of your most famous results experts. My question is about the research expert. Do you have anything in particular that you would give as a guideline for the reason.

I mean, look, it's, it's not the, it's not the easiest path, but there's a ton of them out there. So Earl Nightingale, um, really fits this category. So Earl had no big business or money claim to fame. He was essentially a radio announcer, and he did own an interest in a small insurance agency, but it's not like, you know, it was in the top 10 of all insurance agencies in the world. And Earl really was a gatherer, interpreter, and reporter of information. I would put— so we'll go back and then we'll come forward. Okay. I would put Napoleon Hill in this category, right? Okay. So, so that, that the, the Hill researcher story, more contemporary, but, uh, Stephen Covey, right? Um, Tom Peters. All right, so Peters, for a time, decade and a half, maybe two, one of the hottest business experts in America. Never owned a business, never built a business, uh, never started a business, never bought a business, never sold a business. Um, he made himself an expert on the subject of excellence and researched through his own work as a consultant with one of the big ones. If I remember right, it was Kinsey. And through research. So there's a lot of this. Some of it tends to be academic. You would put— oh, what's his name— Psychology of Influence. Um, uh, Whitley? No, Cialdini. I mean, he's a professor at ASU, right? Um, but he's knocking down $25,000 to come speak. Um, best-selling books, uh, consulting gigs, um, all based on research, right? Uh, so it's a category that you see people in, coming out of, often, not my preferred category, but it's there. The other thing I would say to you about the three groups that you pulled from Bouchard, which by the way I would argue are accurate but incomplete and simplistic, But, I would tell you even if you just looked at those 3 is that there are a lot of successes who are hybrids. So hardly anybody, including the 2 Bills you just referenced, sustain themselves in info marketing solely by packaging up and selling, providing and teaching only their own experience. They may well start with that, and that's a pretty formulaic place to start, but you can't really keep the interest of an audience over a long period of time if you stay there. So almost everybody winds up becoming a researcher, assembler, and provider of information, almost a surrogate student for their audience. And almost everybody winds up, like it or not, stepping into the role model position as well. Okay. Is that— Yeah. Okay, I got it. Um, the other thing I would say to you is, is that it's useful to closely examine fairly reliable, consistently used pigeonholes like this, formulas, architecture, etc., but never to be completely bound by it. So there are certainly all sorts of information marketing or at least pieces of information marketing, speakers or coaches or whatever, who deviate from all three of these boxes.

Do you know if Marty Forte is going to be at InfoSummit?

Marty is going to be at Summit. Marty is helping me out a little bit at my three-quarter day in advance of Summit. All right.

Okay, cool, because he's who I want to become.

Marty will be flattered to hear that. And Marty is a very good example. If you wanted to pigeonhole him in the 3 categories you just named, it would be results. I mean, basically, like many business niche info marketers, he's franchising without franchising. That's a very reliable approach and Marty has done a great job of it. The analogy to you is of course obvious. Okay.

Our next question will come from Eric. Eric, your line is open. Hi, Dan.

How are you? I'm good, Eric. How are you?

I'm very good. My question is, is pretty fundamental. It really is when you're building your info product. I keep coming back to— I have a book that I've drafted, but I keep wanting to go back and add more stuff to it. I just wonder when is good enough good enough.

Sooner than you think. Okay. So a few things. One is it's very common for someone new to try and put the whole farm in the first thing they do, which A, is almost impossible, and B, is very bad business tactics. So, you know, one way to get to a product in the marketplace being sold faster is to narrow its focus. Another way is to make it all-encompassing but not very deep. So often people are trying to— literally tell everything they know in their first info product. The second thing about all information products and pretty much all buyers of them is unless you create a different expectation, there is far less concern about normal or traditional perfection, whether that's cosmetic appearance, perfect editing, etc., then there is about— I want the ideas and the information. So unless you are creating and publishing for MBA college professors or literary critics, then you get to good enough is good enough pretty quick. Third, You want to be careful about this book thing. There probably is no worse an information product than a book because everybody knows what it should sell for the minute they see it. So it's— when you step forward with a book, it is very hard not to be commoditized. I know the minute I see it that depending on how thick it is, it should sell for $9 or $12 or $19. And stretching that price point is really not easy. Brian Kurtz will be at InfoSummit. You know, Boardroom does a great job stretching price on a book. One of the big case histories he's going to go through at InfoSummit with their 30-Day Diabetes Cure book. I mean, this is a hardbound book that sold for 2 payments of $39.95 and sold in the millions. But this is relatively rare and it requires a number of factors. So if you think about— so let's take a product you're familiar with. If you take the Magnetic Marketing System and you transcribe the CDs and you take the transcription of the CDs and all the pages that are in it and you abbreviate and shrink, but not a lot, you can probably get that into a 300-page book. But you are not going to get $399 for it. And if you do, you're probably going to have a heavy return rate. So the same information packaged differently automatically distances you from predetermined price. Most of the reasons to do books are not, are not for it to be the primary or even the first product for profit. They're done for other purposes. They're done as lead generation magnets. They're done as attempts at self-liquidating lead generation magnets where all you're trying to do is offset ad cost. They're done for authority, credibility, celebrity. They're done because a book can be a path to publicity, trade journal reviews, interviews that non-book products can't always give. Speakers often do them so they have something to autograph. But as an info product for profit, they are usually not the best choice. The other thing I'll quickly say to you about a book is most books that are done for these purposes are not written entirely like real books. They are written as crossbred real book with long sales letter. And they are at least built to sell a concept or a philosophy or a position that leads to the sale of product, if not built to actually sell product altogether. And so if you go take— we just mentioned the author— so if you go take Think and Grow Rich, which is a great example. And you now dissect it and carefully read it, not because you want to absorb its content, but to analyze what it is, you will see that Napoleon Hill wrote a brilliant, very long sales letter, including all of the things that go into great sales letters.. And that at the end of it, if we wanted to, we could stick 2 more pages actually selling a Think and Grow Rich home study course and it would be good to go. And so that's what you see done with a lot of books in our world. And real publishers and real editors will cringe and all of that. It's about your purposes.

Well, thanks.

I'll try to digest all that. My book is, well, it's lead gen is what I had anticipated, but I keep dumping more stuff into it. I was wondering if you could also explain—

Well, here's— so if its purpose is lead generation, there should be nothing more in it that is necessary to generate a lead. Okay, okay, okay. So that's his job, right? Okay, so everything else is optional, and everything else might get in your way. So think about it as a car. So if your purpose in owning a car is to very reliably and comfortably get from point A to point B, there are really a pretty short list of essential ingredients. Tires, engine, starter, battery, windshield wipers in case it rains, etc. The big 4-screen computer system in it that has a GPS and Facebook access and movies is certainly a luxury, and it may in fact interfere with you arriving alive at the place you wanted to get. So when you do lead generation, by book or by any other means. A danger to be very aware of is teaching more than you need to, revealing more than you need to, to motivate someone to identify themselves as eligible to buy what you sell and to step forward and, and ask you to tell them more. Okay, thanks.

I appreciate that.

Okay, next up is Todd.

Todd, your line's open. Hi, you know, it's Todd from Adarian Wilson Wilson, and I'm in the real estate world and coaching and consulting with agents and brokers, and that is my core business. But my question is, if you're venturing into a new business where you're virtually unknown, if not completely unknown, what do you see as far as marketing that's kind of primarily getting great response in the current market where there's a good return on the— on the investment for generating a response for an actual buyer in a new market?

Well, so I'll tell you a couple things. So first of all, keep in mind that hardly anything is an advantage without being a disadvantage or a disadvantage without being an advantage. Right. So the new kid on the block, Obviously has the disadvantage of being the new kid on the block. So nobody knows you. Nobody's ever heard of you. Nobody has had evolving curiosity about you that they finally decide to appease, etc. You also have the advantage of being the new kid on the block. Nobody's heard of you. Nobody knows who you are. Nobody has any preconceived ideas about you or a preexisting concept of what you teach that actually diminishes curiosity in you. The new kid on the block is often disadvantaged at closing the sale because of trust deficiency, testimonial deficiency, credibility deficiency, brand familiarity deficiency, but he is very often advantaged in lead generation and getting people into a funnel and getting them to a sales event of one kind or another because he can stir up enormous curiosity and excitement and claim to be entirely different than everything that they're familiar with and are seeing. So there's pluses and minuses. The second thing I'll tell you and the thing for you to sort of look at and pay attention to is even established people in niches, even established info marketers in niches, including in the one you are in currently, will often do unbranded lead generation, omitting their identity, their name, their face, their likeness, their story. Their brand for all of the reasons I just named, that the familiarity of the marketplace, even with a stellar reputation attached to it, actually suppresses curiosity. And it can often make it harder to generate a lead than a complete unbranded campaign that is really all about the pain or danger to or lust of the prospect and the big promise of what they are going to discover. So there are very well-established, experienced, successful info marketers doing some of their marketing in exactly the same way on the front end as someone brand new to a market without a single customer in the market has to do. Right. So—

Let's say you have the market targeted well and you know your message. What media do you see as a preferred entry point into a new niche?

Too narrow and simple a question. Yeah. Let me sort of try and restructure it for you. Okay. Um, a consideration is how are, how are these customers, um, buying now? So regardless of what they're being sold or who is selling to them, what is their preferred buying methods? Ranked 1, 2, 3. So are they, are they coming into physical rooms? Are they coming to live webcasts? Are they responding to direct mail? Um, are they being scooped up at a booth at a trade show? How are they buying? Right. Then a consideration is what process can you use that either hooks to that method of buying if you are willing to use it and able to use it, or that approximates it, or that can move them away from it to something else. And then you start to think about the media that might be best used for that process and that method of selling. An entirely different second question— answer to the question is often the way to begin is not with necessarily the best media. The way to begin is with the least visible media so you can experiment, you can test different messages,. You can test different processes. You can test different prices without being noticed by any but a relatively small number of isolated prospects. Yeah, I love that. And you can take your lumps and bruises. It's why there's a thing called Off-Broadway to go test a show before you put it on Broadway. It's why there's way off-Broadway where they go test a show in Omaha for 3 nights and then pack up and leave and figure out what happened. And so often it's not what's going to be the best media. It's not what's going to be the most affordable media. It's going to be what's the best test media.

Yes, Alan?

Yeah, I love the least visible media thought. That's fantastic.

Thank you very much. You are welcome, sir.

Okay, our next question will come from Susie. Susie, your line is open.

Hi, Dan.

Hi, Dan. How are you? I have— I feel like I'm approaching what I would call the tipping point or the place where I could start to create the phenomenon in my business. Great. So I just, I've got, you know, I had a couple Kindle books. I have like 6 training courses that are completed. I redid a couple of them to increase the prices. I have a small online list. And so after the call a couple months ago about books, I tested and put out a title of a book and did some Facebook testing and like I pre-sold 300 of them for the price of shipping. So now I wrote the book after that and then created another course that is from that step to $297. So I feel like I'm really kind of ready to ramp things up. And the only, I'm curious, number one, from a $7, you know, get the book free for shipping, up to that $297, Am I possibly trying to take them on too big of a leap? And then the second thing is just any tips that you have now to ramp it up really fast would be great.

Okay, so let's take your first question, which is easier.

Okay.

So any leap is possible, but it depends on many factors. A great deal of it depends on who the— on the market, who the buyer is. And their price frame of reference. Depends on how good that sales process is that is the bridge between the $7 opt-in and the $297 sale. Because, so think about it, you can take people from no money to $297, and you can take them from no money to $2,997. And in some markets we can take them to $29,997. So it's not a— there's no formula that says the second purchase should be 1.6 times multiple of the first. There's no such math. Okay. What you do want is a means— well, first of all, you want to— you obviously, which you are smart and sophisticated about, so you want opportunities to test. And you want opportunities to test price points to make sure you're not too low and to make sure you're not too high. But what you will almost certainly want if you are going to drive any significant quantity of eligible buyers through a, a place that goes from 7 to 297, you are gonna— you may not need or want any price stops along the way, but you are almost certainly going to want a drop back down to one or more other lower price points. For only for and only seen by your, your unconverted leads who will not buy at the desired $2,297. There is always some percentage of lead flow that will not purchase only because of price, regardless of what that price is, and If you're going to spend money to generate leads and you're going to generate a lot of them, you want some method of monetizing the percentage who will not buy at your desired price only because of your desired price. The other thing you're going to want almost certainly is you are going to want either A, A/B price option instead of a single price, uh, for the sake of conversation, $297 or $397 for deluxe, which is leather-bound or, or comes with an autograph and a kiss and a candy, or includes these, you know, 7 extra things or whatever. Um, or you were going to want an immediate upsell. To the $297 for two reasons. One, again depending on many factors, market, subject matter, process, timing, et cetera, there will be no less than 5% to as many as 20% who will buy the not double in price, will buy the slightly higher priced option purely because that's who they are and that's how they behave. And not having it for them simply leaves money on the table that you could have had. And secondly, again, if you are going to spend money to generate leads, you will find that you cannot afford to leave any money on the table. You will need all the money you can get. And so if you go to a really well-run car wash where somebody knows what they're doing, you will almost always confront 3 primary price points, a basic, a deluxe, and a super deluxe. And there'll be a big sign up when you pull up in your car with everything listed and check marks on what you get in basic and more check marks on what you get in deluxe and more check marks on what you get in super deluxe.. And you'll have 3 price points. The reason for that is because if they didn't have the third one, everybody would choose between the one and two. But if they have the third, roughly 10%, 15% of the people take the third. And it's an extra $10 or $20, usually an extra $10, maybe $15 for stuff that is incredibly profitable incrementally. It doesn't cost them any more for labor, same labor standing there. It doesn't cost them any more for lights, same lights are there. The extra stuff they're applying is, you know, air freshener and tire polish which costs about 2 cents. So the incremental profit in that incremental business is incredibly important. The really good ones will also try a big upsell of, hey, you can prepay for a month for unlimited car washes. Hey, you can buy a 6-month pass. Hey, you can— and again, the reason they do it is because not doing it leaves money on the table. So what I've just done is, you know, complicated your life rather than leaving it simple.

But— No, because it's actually very clear. I can offer a workbook that gives them the form. I tell them things in the book that they should do. I can upsell that at like $47 and then offer them the full course where they get the full videos and all that stuff.

So I think it's perfect. Okay. Just remember, don't hesitate to leap up and then come back down. Don't feel you've got to do it in steps up. Okay. Okay. Um, to your other question, which is a much more difficult, um, and complex question, but rapid ramping up, um, A, obviously you do it with money. Um, uh, the substitutes for money, um, are sometimes manual labor. Uh, speaking, for example, or doing a ton of teleseminars for 6 million people. Um, or another alternate for capital is finding a host. So if you— so if you have— if you have proof of concept, so you have products that people buy, like, benefit from, and don't return, and, and you have a sales funnel that converts and works, even if you haven't done big numbers with it, but you have done enough to prove that it works, then you got to think about who has a huge number of customers already who will like this thing, for whom this thing is not directly competitive, who I can pay for access, pay on results for access to and ideally endorsement to those customers. And that's a very important thing to think about. Okay. Um, I had a client here yesterday who— I got to describe it in a way that doesn't reveal much, but— so they already have a successful business. They're already selling millions of dollars a year worth of goods. They have a sales system that supports the sale of those millions of dollars worth of goods. Some of them are being sold through a particular catalog company. This catalog company rents its lists. This catalog company rents email to its list to strangers. This catalog company has web media that strangers can buy banner ads on. This catalog company has package inserts in every box of chips that it sells to strangers. They already have a relationship and they have never gone to this catalog company and sat down and said, we're already making you a quarter of a million dollars a year selling stuff through your catalog. We are spending money elsewhere on marketing. We're willing to spend some of that money inside your universe and we want access to your lists, your email, your website, but we don't want to pay retail rental fees for it. They've never had this conversation. And the thing is just set up to pull a trigger. So that's the kind of thinking you really need to do.

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