Vanessa Van Edwards on the Hidden Science of Trust, Charisma, and Selling Without Being Salesy | #Marketing - Ep. 112

Do you have a funnel but it's not converting? The problem 99.9% of the time is that your funnel is good, but you suck at selling. If you want to learn how to sell so your funnels will actually convert, then get a ticket to my next selling online event by going to sellingonline.com/podcast. That's sellingonline.com/podcast. This is the Russell Brunson Show. What's up everybody? Welcome back to the show. I'm really excited for a special guest who I've been seeing blowing up everywhere. I've seen her on like a ton of podcasts. Everywhere I go, I see her face. Popping up and I went to Instagram and followed her and then the next day she messaged me and she's like, hey, I actually used your stuff to build your business. I'm like, what? That is the coolest thing in the world. So I'm excited to introduce you to all of her, introduce all of you to her. We're gonna have a really cool conversation. We're talking about a lot of stuff. She's got a book called Cues. Her name's Vanessa Van Edwards and she is just like you guys, a funnel hacker who's got her message out there and is going across the whole world and it's been really, really fun watching. So Vanessa, first off, it's been so cool over the last like 5 minutes getting to know you, but thanks for coming on the show.

Oh, my pleasure. I, when I saw that you liked one of my reels, there was a celebration in my house. I was, I was like, Russell Brunson liked my video. So I just was, I just slid into your DMs and was like, you have helped me so much because I'm a recovering awkward person. I don't know if there are any other funnel hackers listening where we love the biz, we love the strategy, we love our products, but we don't really like people.

We're scared of them.

Yeah, people are hard. I think it's the hardest part about being an entrepreneur is you have to work with others, you know, like a sort of— and also I'm ambiverted. I don't— where, Russell, are you introvert, extrovert, or ambivert? Do you know?

Uh, I've never heard ambivert. I've always considered myself introverted for sure. What's an ambivert?

Okay, so, so actually 80% of people are ambiverted, which means you are not a true extrovert or true introvert. It means You can socialize and be very outgoing with the right people in the right settings, but the wrong people, the wrong settings totally shut you down, drain you, and you need a lot of recharge time. So you can like extrovert, you can people for a certain amount of time, but then you are out like you need to recharge. Is that you?

That does sound actually more like me. I always thought it's because like I had to because like I always tell people I feel like I'm an introvert in an extrovert's calling, so I have to go and do things. But then, yeah, afterwards I have to go back and hide and just be like, oh, give me some time. Please.

And by the way, I think that like that's the most— the biggest challenge is being an entrepreneur is we do like a lot of deep thinking work, a lot of strategy work. We're like in our funnels testing subject lines and, you know, right in like, you know, it takes me 4 days to build slides and then you have to teach them, which is the next challenge. So I think a lot of us entrepreneurs are ambiverted and I actually think that's a superpower. I think it's a strength if we learn how to leverage it.

Yeah, it's— I remember when I was first learning about introvert, extrovert, like understanding how a lot of really successful people, even like actors or people who perform, it's like they create privately by themselves and they perform publicly. And it's like, that's like the, I feel like that skillset is really, really powerful versus people who are very extroverted. They figure things out on the fly, like in real time, like while they're talking about it. So they're not as good at preparing. And sometimes you can go off the rails if you're not like, if you don't have a structure to actually follow. And it's interesting to watch the dynamics between them.

Yes, also that I've noticed that there are certain folks who there's, different mediums where they thrive. Like, for example, when I'm on social media, I'm actually by myself.

This is great, actually.

I, I, you know, the reason I like doing so many videos— I have so many YouTube videos— is because it's just me in a dark room, you know, with a, with a ring light. So like, there's no peopling. I don't have to worry about being awkward or saying the wrong thing, or it's just me. And I can edit out my awkward silences, or I keep them in because I'm— I want to be authentic and people to see my mistakes and my flubs. That is safe for me. Whereas, for example, a small group workshop, no, like, like it gives me like heart palpitations like that. That for me is way harder. And so I think people listening, it's also good to think like, what's the medium where you thrive? Like, are you very good at cold calls? Like, are you good at phone calls? There are certain types of people that are very good at phone calls and they're, and they're bad at video. They're bad at video calls. I think like trying to optimize like the way that you're communicating, you don't have to be good at all of them. But that's permission. You do not have to be good at all of them. In fact, there are some people who thrive in podcast. They're like, I don't want to worry about makeup. I don't want, you know, I have resting bothered face. I always look angry. I cannot do video. I thrive on audio. Great. Double down on audio. Or there's now people who are like, you know what, writing, you know, like writing emails, that is my jam. I don't want to be on video. I don't want to be talking. Great. Like do what you're excellent at socially. I think social strengths is just as important as business strengths.

Yeah, I think it's interesting. A lot of people think they've got to learn how to do all of it. But I, as you said, like, I know people who just make money off a podcast, no face, just spoken word. People just make money off emails. People just make money off Instagram, just YouTube. Like, so I think we think we have to like be— do all of them, but it's like you don't. You just have to, like you said, figure out the ones you really resonate with and focus there.

You know, I don't have a podcast, which everyone's like, what? And I'm like, no, I'm not good at that medium. I don't think I'm as good at interviewing as you are or hosting in that way. And I think that when I said I said no to doing a podcast, that's when we hit 7 figures.

Interesting.

I think sometimes saying no to the wrong things leaves room to double down on the right things.

Yeah. Interesting. All right. I want to jump back in time. I want to jump back in time to how you started this business. My people, you know, we have all of the crazy online marketers, people who are— they're creators. They've got a vision, they got something they're passionate about. And there's some phase of the journey where they're trying to figure this out. So I want to go back to the very beginning of yours. And like, how did you decide, like, I'm going to start an online business and I'm going to, you know, start doing this kind of stuff?

Yeah, okay, so 2007, this thing launched called YouTube, and I was like, okay, YouTube, I can do this. And so I started filming little YouTube videos, uh, and I was— that back then I was specializing in communication for teenagers and parents. I was very young myself, and so I was posting videos for teens and parents on how to communicate better, and they really started doing well. And this was right at the beginning of YouTube, right? Like people didn't even know what it was. Facebook was the Facebook, right? It was very, very early on. And so no one was doing educational content on YouTube. It was mostly like toys, like unboxing, cats. Yeah, like unboxing videos and like video games. It was, it was, no one was really doing that. So it was really a blue ocean. Like there was very little competition. And then as I got older, I started broadening my brand to just general communication because I was getting older. So I couldn't really speak to teenagers anymore. And then this idea happened where blogging was becoming big. So I started writing a blog along with every video post. And then you had to have a newsletter with every blog post. So every 2 years it felt like I was adding a channel, you know? I started with video, then we added blogging, then we added email newsletters, then we added Facebook, then there was LinkedIn, then for a minute there was like Periscope. Remember that? Yeah.

Oh, I miss Periscope. That's my favorite one.

Oh man, I know. I built a cardboard house on Periscope. That was so fun. I mean, um, by the way, mistake. Um, I doubled down on Periscope. Everyone was like, guys, this is never going away, okay? You're just double down on this. And boy oh boy, did I. And I was like, I'm gonna put all my eggs in the Periscope basket and none in the Instagram basket.

Big mistake.

Big mistake. Everyone's like, Instagram? What? Look at pictures? That's so silly. But like, you know, doubled down on Periscope for a couple years, ignored Instagram. And just that Instagram came, then TikTok came. So, um, every every basically 2 years I was adding a new channel, but the 2 that remained constant were YouTube and the newsletter, the email newsletter. And so I have an approach to be, as a content creator, to be aggressively helpful. So I want every single email or every single video to either give you an aha moment right then and there or make you laugh. Either one, right? I It has to do one of those two things so that when I do have to sell, and I actually do not like selling, but when I have to sell, at least I feel like I've given away a lot of really aggressively helpful content for that. Even when I'm selling, I'm trying to be aggressively helpful too. And that's when someone, Jeremy Sandow, Jeremy, if you're listening, Jeremy Sandow said, have you heard of this guy Russell Brunson? And this was over a decade ago, over a decade ago.

The very beginning of ClickFunnels then probably.

Right, it was the very beginning. And like you were starting, you were aggressively helpful. He's like, he's literally putting out this con, he's giving us, I remember opening your book, I got your book and I, and it showed every slide, every slide in the webinar. And so you know what I did? I used every single one of your slides, every single one. If you go on my free trainings, I have, I have 12 60-minute webinars, one for every year, cuz I do one a year. And they're all 3 secrets to being more likable.

It's so good.

Being inauthentic, 3 secrets to being more assertive while still being nice. 3 secrets to— I'm serious.

It's so good. They're all like that. You put them on— do you post it on YouTube or you run this webinar separately, or how?

I, um, I live on YouTube. Live on YouTube.

Cool.

Yep, yep. And now we, you know, simulcast it, so it's on YouTube, TikTok, Instagram, and LinkedIn, and X, I think, too. So that was over a decade ago, and my friend Jeremy was like, we have— you have to start doing webinars, because what I was doing before was just selling via my newsletter and occasionally a social post, and it wasn't enough. Like it just wasn't enough. I was able to make maybe $50,000 or $60,000 in a launch just using emails. But when I added my first webinar and I did it, literally your exact slides, like if you go watch that original, it's still up, you can go watch. It's like, you know, here's my hurdle, here's the stack, like it's all the different things that you did. We had over 6 figures within the first day.

So good.

Within the first day. And what's great about it is I taught, you know, I think that I like your stuff is because I was teaching for 30 minutes, you know, that it was all teaching. So, um, that was a real game changer. That was an inflection point for me is I think that was in like about 2015, 2016, somewhere around there where we totally transferred into webinars. And so we would launch 3 to 4 times a year. Um, we would close our class, offer bonuses, as you mentioned. Um, and that's when I got my book deal. Which was very— I'm excited. Actually, I should say, um, for— because now we're talking entrepreneurs. I got a book deal in 2010, and I thought it would be life-changing. It was from a major publisher, and, um, I wrote it, and I loved the book, and I put it out, and no one bought it.

Was it this one or the one behind you? Which, which one was it?

Oh, you don't see it.

It's one we don't talk about.

It is, uh, hidden away.

I want a copy of it. Give me a copy.

And I'm like, I, I would, I will be, I really thought that like this was a dream come true, right? Like I, I was so happy and then it came out and no one bought it and I realized how hard it was to sell books. It is really hard to sell books. And at that point I had 7,000 people about on my newsletter, on my emails newsletter. And I think like 13 bought it.

You're like, oh no, that was a lot of work.

And I think like 10 of them were my mom. You know what I mean? Like I think maybe 3 people bought it. And so So that was really shock, really hard. I actually had to quit. I had to quit. I like was out. Like I was like, I can't do this. Like I was basically told like, you're never gonna write a book again. You should quit. Like you should stop.

So you quit everything or you just quit the, just the writing part or you stopped everything?

I stopped everything.

Really? For how long?

About 7 months.

Okay.

Like just was like, maybe I'm not meant to do this, you know? And all, you know, I think when you create something like a book does badly, it feels like you are you.

Like, I couldn't separate myself from the book, especially how much time you put into a book. A book is so personal because you're spending all this, like, time with you and your brain, your thoughts, privately creating something, and you publicly give it to the world. And it's like, for me, every time I release a book, it is the scariest feeling I've ever felt in my life because you're just like, man, I've lived with it for so long, and if people judge, that gets hard. I can't even imagine. I can't imagine. It sounds very hard.

And so I, I stopped. And my husband— I've been with my husband for 20 years, so he's been with me through the whole process. He was like, I, I think you, I think you need to go back to this, but I think you should just do it differently. And I was like, I feel so sad and I feel so uncomfortable. And by the way, that was like, like very peak social anxiety as well, because I think what was— what happened was my friends were very happy for me, and I would go out and they'd be like, how's the book? I'd be like, uh, it's total failure and I'm never gonna write again.

So thanks for asking.

Yeah, thank you. And they'd be like, how's the biz? And I'd be like, totally failing, not making any money, like taking out loans, you know.

You're like, thanks for making my mood feel so good though, I appreciate it.

I mean, and so already some social, like, lack of confidence that I had turned into like, I was very scared to go out and talk about the business and you know, entrepreneurs know this. Whenever someone asks you, what do you do, you then have to sell yourself pretty much. You know, depends on your business, of course, but you're, you're, you're pitching right then and there, whether it's at a barbecue or pickup line or, you know, PTA. Like, right there you have this moment where you can be like, oh, you know, you just marketing, right? I always say that. Or like, well, I'm an author. And then they're like, what's the book about? Oh, actually it failed. You know, it was this really hard. It's like really hard. So anyway, um, he said, why don't you write about that? Why don't you just write about how hard it is to talk about yourself, how hard it is to talk about what you do? And one of the first videos that I posted after I kind of rebranded— I, I rebranded to Signs of People— was how do you answer what do you do? Like, that, like, especially if you are embarrassed by what do you do. And I started talking about the mechanics of answering difficult questions. How do you answer how are you? How do you answer, tell me your biggest weakness? How do you answer, tell me about your last relationship? Like all those questions. And those really started to go viral. And that's built a lot of momentum back into the business. And I started talking about being awkward. And little did I know there was a lot of smart, awkward people out there.

Who all resonated.

Yeah, so when I got Captivate as a book deal in 2015, that's when my business had the inflection point with your formula. I was scared. I was like, no, I can't write books. I can't sell books. My editor, who's still my editor today, Nikki Papadopoulos, was like, you can write this book differently. Like, we're gonna do this different. And so that was Captivate. That was my very— my first successful book. When it came out, I was— I expected to go like full dark. Like, I was like, this is going to be terrible. No one's gonna buy it. And thank goodness the opposite happened, and was huge and very successful. And I think it's because I approached it differently. I was like, I'm gonna write about awkwardness. I'm not gonna, um, write what I think I should write. I should write the book that I wish I had had. So that was Captivate.

Yeah, that's so cool. And how many— what year was Captivate?

Uh, published in 2017. So started in 2015, 2016, and then published 2017.

Yeah, so cool. Um, I'm curious, with YouTube channel, when you, when you rebranded and kind of shifted, did you just change the channel, put new stuff on. Like, if we go back in time, will we go see the ones when you're talking to the teenagers way back in the day? Are they still there?

They're, they're unlisted. No, they're unlisted. I should, you know, I should just— I should pick one and just relist it.

Relist it for like a weekend, like everyone go check it out.

I know, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll see if I can find one that I can just relist. You'll be like, whoa.

Yeah, it's funny for me, like, um, one of the highest close rates I ever had is I found my very first presentation I ever sold, and I showed that when I was trying to teach people how to sell from stage. And like, because people saw how awkward I was, like, it it gave them so much belief that then they went and— anyway, so just people would love to see the very, the pre-beginning of your stuff.

I'm gonna go unlist one because like they're sitting right there and they're so raw and so awkward, um, that I think if people don't believe me when I'm like, I was, I'm a recovering awkward person, they do not believe me, and then they will. So that's a good idea. I will. Challenge accepted.

So the next part of your story, because leading up to this book and stuff and everything, and, and maybe it's just because I've You know, seeing you more and more, it feels like you're in this, like, like a lot of stuff happening right now. A lot of growth, a lot of like attention happening. Like what was it that took you from Captivate to like this crescendo to where you are today and like getting more media and more things and more like, yeah, I'm curious like what that transition part looked like.

Yeah. So virality really. And I hate to say that social media made that big of a difference, but before that I was really focused on putting out aggressively helpful content, which was usually living in newsletters and long-form YouTube. That was that, and a long-form blog to go along with it. A lot of long-form. Um, then I started focusing a lot more on virality, like very quick tips that would really help, and then going on other people's platforms, including learning platforms. So that's when I started partnering with other people who had bigger audiences than me. Not partners like other entrepreneurs, platforms. So for example, I launched a Udemy course. Um, I had like 5 or 6 Udemy courses, and they had, at that time, they were really big. And so I was the only person on Udemy doing social skills content. At the time, Udemy was really all technical content. It was programming. And so I had this course like human lie detection, body language 101, body language for entrepreneurs. And so a lot of, I noticed coders were taking it as like their lunch break. Like it was like their, like their treat course. And we, I remember this, I posted on Udemy and I was like, you know, I invested like in a little camera and a little light. And I was like, man, this was $90 on Amazon. I better make back this $90. Thinking at the time. And I was like, if I could just make $100, you know, $100, I'll pay back my— I'll break even. I'll make $10. I'll buy me 2 coffees. Back then, I think that was 3 coffees. And I posted it, and within 24 hours it got approved. We had thousands, thousands of sales, thousands and thousands of sales. And so Udemy started putting me in their email announcements. And this is something that's a very weird hack, but I think it works, is there's always a platform that really big in the moment. So it was Udemy, then it was CreativeLive, then it was Skillshare, then it was LinkedIn Learning, then it was Lynda, right? Like all these platforms. And so what I would do is I would go to each platform at the— as they were crescendoing, like as they were getting big, and I would offer them content either for free or for pay. And what I would negotiate is, please put me on an email blast, because I knew that just being in search would not be enough, especially if I didn't have any reviews. And so in my negotiations with every single one of those platforms, I asked, I'm happy to create this content for you. One, tell me all about your users and their searching habits. So I knew what people were searching in the search bar, and I knew that if I could build a course based on those keywords, I would come up in search higher. So I asked in the pre-negotiations, could I have search information? And then second, will you promise 1 to 5 email blasts? And then third, if I could do it, I asked, can you put me in your ads? 'Cause what I realized was all of these platforms had funding. So I didn't wanna take out ads on my own stuff, but they had tons of budget for ads. So I said, will you do ads for me? I'll film them for you if you want to do ads. And so then they would put $100,000 to $300,000 in ads of my course for me. And I wasn't having to spend it. So if I pre-negotiated those things, it almost guaranteed that the course would do well. And then I was able to go from platform to platform. Like, for example, I just did a masterclass and that's, you know, a beautiful platform. They make beautiful courses. And so when I talked to them, I was like, please run ads, like run ads. I will do whatever you need to run that ad. I'll give you, you know, we can collab on my accounts, we can do co-ads together because they have the spend for those ads. And then I was like, how many emails are you going to send? When are you going to send them? Can I help you? Can I create content for those emails? So I think that whatever business you're in, whether it's content creation or learning, is what platforms— not social media platforms, but what platforms could feature you, your knowledge, your business, your product? And then how can you get into their search? Because almost every website now has search. Into their emails, into their ads.

So smart. I've never heard anyone really talk about that because everyone's so focused on, on the social platforms. But Man, that's, that's really, really cool. Well, I know what I'm going to be doing this weekend now. I'm going to be focusing on calling people like, dang, I want to get a masterclass. I didn't even think about that. So cool.

I'll introduce you to them. Yeah, let's do it. For sure. You should have one. And I also think like, speaking of, I think that we also have to think about, we think about search engine optimization a lot, right? Like I knew about search engine optimization, SEO, from my blog for many days. But we don't realize is that every search engine Every social platform is a search engine. Every course platform is a search engine. Every blog is a search engine. And so if you can be optimizing for their search and then their email blasts, everyone's sending out email blasts, whether you're a flossing company or you're a shower curtain company, it's like everyone has an email newsletter. And so getting into those email newsletters is key. Like I have another book launch coming up in October and I was like, I don't even wanna do a podcast tour. I wanna do a newsletter tour. Like I wanna take over people's newsletters and write aggressively helpful content for their newsletter. And then I wanna ask them if, I can be in their ads. It is a very different way of thinking about your product and your content.

Yeah, I love it. So cool. I'm curious because you had so much success also getting on like bigger podcasts and things like that. For my audience who's like, that's like a lot of their dream. Like, how would I get on a podcast? How do you like— what's your process? Are you pitching people? They could be coming to you. Is it a— is there a strategy behind it all?

Yeah, I have a strategy. I don't pitch podcasts. I want them to notice me. So the way that I think about this is I have a list, always a running list of like 10 podcasts that I want to be on specifically that I think I could be of service to their audience. Like there are podcasts out there that are very big, but I don't know, I don't think their audience would find me helpful. Like I don't do makeup content, I don't do health and wellness content. So, you know, I'm not aiming for those ones. I'm aiming for really smart, talented entrepreneurs or professionals. Maybe they want a little bit of social help. So I'm like, okay, Who are they listening to? I have a running list of 10. So make your list of 10 where you know you could help their audience. Like, not just you like them, but like, you know that whatever you have to say or offer could be super helpful for them because it can be a way easier pitch. Then you should write 5 hooks that you think their audience would like. So like, let's take, for example, let's take Mel Robbins, for example. So I was a big fan of Mel. I love you know, she has a lot of very smart listeners. And I noticed that her viral content, her best content, had very specific kind of headlines. So my team and I sat down and we made a list of what topics we thought would go viral for her, not for me, but for her. Then I went and I made that content. Either I made it myself, like in my YouTube channel here, or I went on a smaller podcast and tested the content. Clipped that content from that podcast and tried to get it to go viral so that her team would see that content. I could recreate it for her. And so that is exactly what has happened, I would say, over 50 times, is I've created content and then we remake it. Or, uh, like, I'll— I make it myself, or I make it on a podcast where I'm testing the material. Like, you know, all my content, it's— it has to be packaged the right way to be helpful. So like, for example, for a long time, let's get very specific. So I had an idea to encourage people to break out of their social awkwardness with social exposure theory, which is basically this idea that you go out and you know that you're going to fail, but you say hi to as many people as possible. You feel the rejection and realize you're okay, right? Like that. That's a very specific challenge. So I've been— I had been trying to teach that content on a couple of different podcasts. I tried it on my YouTube channel. It didn't go very viral. I tried it in a story. It didn't go very viral. I then tried it on 3 or 4 different podcasts, like trying to explain it to the host. Only kind of went well.. And then I nailed it on a medium-sized podcast. Like, I got the— I got it right. And it got like 20 or 30,000 views, which is kind of viral, like in our world, kind of viral. And that got the attention of Jay Shetty's producers, or I think one of those— one of those did. And I went and redid it on his podcast because I knew I was ready for it. And then that content hit and helped so many people. And that is like— has millions of views, that clip now. But I had practiced used that clip 12 times before it made it to him where it was ready to be like used and digested. So if you want to get on these bigger podcasts, uh, brainstorm the hooks that you think could be most helpful and then deliver them on your own channel. Try to get them to get some clicks and go viral. You can then send it to the producers, or you can try to hop on medium-sized podcasts to try to get that word out that that's one of your big tips.

Yeah, I think that's so cool. It's interesting too, because I think a lot of people are just hoping they're going to say something that happens to go viral where you're like, okay, here's the person, what can I say? What's the story? What's it like thinking through it and then creating like the viral moment as opposed to like hoping there's just magic going to happen, you know what I mean?

So interesting. And by the way, there are some very talented people where that does happen. Or for example, sometimes you'll, you'll be verbalizing something and you're like, whoa, that's, that, that came out really good. That was really good. That can happen. But don't, don't leave it up to chance.

Yeah.

You know, like, like I think strategizing, and remember, I think the intention here is helpful, right? Like, yes, virality, but like what is gonna make people wanna take out their pen and take notes? Yeah.

That's, that's the goal essentially. I, I look at the, my content very similar. Like the thing that I'm best at is long form. Like I'm my shortest, like a 90-minute webinar to a 5-day event. Right. So like I'm much better longer form. And so for me though, to fill up 5 days of me speaking on stage for 8 hours a day, for an event, like an event we're doing, it's like I have to have a lot of stories, but I do the same thing you're talking about. It's like, I don't just like show up like, I hope I got a story for today. Like for the last 2 decades of my life, like, um, like I'll have an idea or something and then like I'll, I'll be at the gym and I'll tell it to my trainer and then like, uh, and then I get home and I'll like, I'll say to my wife and then, you know, every time it's like, ah, it didn't really land, right? Let me change. And I go to the office. I'm like, hey guys, check this out. And I say to the office, see what they say. And then I'll record a little podcast pass on my phone and put it out, you know. Like, I'll do like 10, 15, 20 variations of it till it's like, okay, I know how to tell this story in a way it's going to just drop the second I need it to. And then that's it.

Yeah, that's it. Like, I think, like, yeah, we should have like 10 practice people. Like, yes, my trainer— my poor trainer has to hear all my tips, like, while I'm like lifting. I'll pay you monthly for my training fees instead of overcoming limiting beliefs for a second, you know, like lifting because I'm trying to get this right. Yes. Like, I think that there's mistaken belief that you have to be expertly charismatic on the first go. And the way you deliver something, there is a science to delivery. And so you don't have to get it right the first time. It takes a little bit to practice verbalizing something in a way that's going to land. And really, really good speakers do the work ahead of time. They're like, I'm not going to make my listener parse this out. I'm going to do the work to make sure I have the right conflict and challenge and words and metaphor. It's not too long, it's not too short. I'm going to do the work for them so that when it hits their ears, they're like, yes, click. And so I think it's about doing the work for them. I also would say, like, even with webinars— so I try to give one webinar a year, sometimes two webinars a year, literally using your exact format. So I use— I've, I've changed it a little bit over the years because, like, I found my own way to do it. But I've even noticed if I could add a layer on top, what works and what doesn't work, which is Charisma. Very charismatic people have a perfect blend of warmth and competence. I noticed that if I deliver a webinar and it's all competence— numbers, data, science, research, formula, steps— it doesn't land that well. It's actually too much cerebral. And they, in the research, they literally say competence without warmth is likely to leave us feeling suspicious. So you have people who are listening to the webinar and they're like, okay, but can I trust you? Like, am I feeling this? Am I clicking with this person? I don't want to buy. Like, literally, competence without warmth triggers that feeling of suspicion in a buyer or in your customer who's listening. When I deliver all warmth— so I've had a couple where I've tried a lot of stories. So warmth is stories, gifts, case studies, personal opinions, humor moments. Those also don't convert because people think, I really like you, but I can't rely on you. I really like you, but I'm not going to buy from you. And especially if you have a higher price product, you know, we've tested everything in our product ladder from a $10 book all the way up to a $3,000 course, right? It doesn't even matter the price point. If you have too much warmth, people also feel like, I don't think there's enough credibility here. Like it's too much likability and not enough credibility. So in my webinars now with your formula, I try to balance. For every warm slide, I have a confident slide. So you'll see I'll start with warmth, like a GIF or something cute or funny. Then I hit them with like a really good stat, like a shocking stat. Then I'm like, personal story. Then I'm like, wait, some science and research. Then I'm like, case study. Then I'm like, wait a minute, there's a formula here. Did you know it? So I think that the layer I would add on top is we've seen our webinars, we have some webinars that do great, like they convert for us 7 years later, like they are still making money, they are still earning money for us. And then we have some of ours that just never quite hit and it's because we didn't have enough of a balance. And so for anyone who's creating any kind of content, especially in a funnel, I even did the same thing for an email. Like in my funnels, we are— I love a funnel. I love a funnel. I write all my funnels like I I had— there's an art and science to them. I also think for— I, I rotate warm email, competent email, warm email, competent email. So like, I'll have an email that's all a story, like a very, very heartfelt story, either from me or a case study. And then it's like research that will blow your mind with a step-by-step formula on conversation. Then it's a really inspiring story about how I overcame a challenge, and no links It's just like a story and a picture from my childhood. Then it's like super competent. This is exactly what to say to earn more money. This is exactly what to say to sell. Super competent steps, fill-in-the-blank scripts, and then you can have a buy button. But you have to have both even leading up to it in the funnel.

That's cool. I wanna ask you some more specific questions also about, so your book's cues, it's talking about the secret language of charismatic communication. And so, with our audience, there's a lot of people now who we try and train them like how to do webinars and challenges and get on stage and stuff like that, right? And I think that we talked about at the very beginning, but there's a lot of us, me included, who feel awkward doing things. I'd love to talk about some of the cues that they can learn also, like as they're trying to be someone who's presenting, when they don't feel comfortable presenting, they feel like I did where like I'm an introvert in an extrovert's world and I don't feel comfortable here, but I know I got to do it because I got a message I got get out, like what can we help them with to help, you know, make that part easier?

Perfect. Okay. So the good news is, is there is a formula for this. So this is something that you can learn if you are not naturally charismatic, if you are not naturally a people person, it's fine. You can learn it as long as you have true competence. So you know your product and you know your stuff and true warmth. You are not trying to trick people. You are actually trustworthy. I can teach you the cues. It, it doesn't really, I, it, it doesn't really work to fake it till you make it. I just don't like, usually that comes across as inauthentic. So One is know your stuff, know your brand, know your numbers, know your product. Second is be trustworthy. Don't do anything naughty. Don't do anything evil. Play by the rules.

Okay? Be a good person. Okay?

Be a good person. All right? Yeah. Okay. So that's one. That, that, that's the baseline. Then we can add the cues on top of it. And I like to use Shark Tank as an example whenever I'm talking to entrepreneurs about presenting. So I love the show Shark Tank. My team and I analyzed 495 Shark Tank pitches looking for patterns. We wanted to know why are some— when you, you know, like you watch our thing, they walk down the hallway and you're like, this is going to be good.

This is going to be—

they are going to make money. Like you just know, like something about them in the first few seconds. And there's some where you're like, this is going to be a train wreck. You just know there is something happening there with their walk and those first few lines. So first, your first impression matters. How you take the stage, how you walk into a room, the first thing people see when they pop on video, how you're waiting in the meeting room, Those matter just as much as your presentation. And that is a mistake a lot of entrepreneurs make is they think that their impression happens the moment they start presenting. No, it happens the moment someone first sees you. So that's okay. That means we have a couple seconds to work with there. There's a couple things you wanna make sure of. You are nailing the moment someone first sees you, whether that's on video, on stage, in the room. Like for example, I speak in front of a lot of ballrooms, as do you. I know my first impression happens the moment I walk in that ballroom, even if it's off to the side, and it's especially happening as I walk on stage. Same thing in Shark Tank. You are judging their warmth and competence the moment they walk into that room and your very first word. So here are some of the patterns. One, when people first see you, you, if you can, want to show visible hands, ideally your palm. And that sounds really weird, but eye tracking studies, we like to see people's hands. In fact, if I were to do this entire video and, uh, Russell couldn't see my hands, One, I would become a worse speaker. Susan Goldman-Meadow found that our gestures make us more fluent. It also helps comprehension. So one is the moment I hop on video, I say, "Morning. Hi everyone. Good to see you." Show palm, right? Like a little palm flash. The moment I walk on stage, like literally as I'm walking up the steps or walking across the stage, I say, "Hey everyone. Good to see you. Happy to be here." Or just a visible palm. There is something in our amygdala that deactivates. So visible palm and keeping your hands out of your pockets, not behind your back. Like, that's very, very first thing, baseline. Second thing is you want to start your first word on your lowest natural tone. And what I mean by this, and they've actually measured it, is when we get anxious, both men and women tend to go up into the highest end of their range. They talk up here. Now, if I were to give this entire interview like this, It would drive you crazy. You'd be like, why is she talking like that? Now that's natural for me. Like when I'm talking to my daughters, I might be up here. Hey girls. Yeah. But when you are trying to learn from me, buy from me, get to know me, you want me in my lowest tone because when I'm using my lowest tone, it's called a maximum resonance point. It's super resonant. My voice is relaxed. My shoulders are down. I have lots of volume and your brain goes, ah, She knows what she's talking about. I can relax and listen. The mistake that people make is they give away all of their vocal confidence in the first word. They go like this, hi, or morning. And in the audience, it's without even realizing, the audience is like, ooh, they're nervous. And we don't like to buy from or learn from nervous people. We just don't like it. So When you say hello, I want you to say hello on the out-breath. Most people take it on the in-breath, so they'll answer the phone, they'll be like, hello, all the way up here. Like, just try it with me. So Russell, say hello and say, and take a deep breath in and say hello on the top of your breath. Hello. I don't like that one. Yeah. Right. That's too high.

Right?

Hello. All the way up. So instead, I want you to say hello or your first word on the out-breath. So it sounds like this. So this is the bad one. Hello. Versus hello.

Okay.

Like, hello. That's much better.

Oh, okay.

Much better. And I want you to try this at home so you can hear yourself because the way that you sound at the top of your breath, if you are ever speaking in that tone of voice, you are giving away vocal confidence. That's too high in your range. If you speak on the out-breath as your vocal cords are relaxing, when, when you speak on the out-breath, you actually force your vocal cords to relax. That hits more of your resonance point. We like it. It. Like, it immediately tells our brain, ah, this person knows what they're talking about. So first word on the lowest end of your range. So hands, low vocal range. The third one is a little bit weird, but across cultures and genders and races, we are always trying to gauge someone's perceived pride. We like people who feel proud because usually proud people are confident, they know their stuff, and they're trustworthy, or they're not hiding anything. So we're always trying to gauge, do you look more like a winner or do you look more like a loser? That's a very hard way of saying that, but the way that this works is the amount of space that I I take up dictates how confident I feel. University of British Columbia, they looked at research— they researched athletes across cultures, and they found that when losers win a race, they take up a lot of space. They tilt their head towards the sky, they roll their shoulders back, they often might even have their arms out, and they, they keep their torso nice and open. Losing athletes do the opposite. They typically tilt their chin down, they roll their shoulders in, they tightly press their arms to their side or even cross their arms in front as if they're showing defeat. The problem is when we are starting a meeting, what are we typically doing? Checking our phone and checking our phone looks just like a loser. I like, it literally looks like a losing athlete. So when someone pops on video or you walk on stage or you're walking into a room, do not be checking your phone because literally it's accidental defeat body language. Instead, I want you to maximize two distances very specifically. I want you to maximize the distance between your earlobe and your shoulder. So this should be as maximized as possible. Now watch me, I'm going to shrink my shoulders down. If I were to have my shoulders hunched up and my head down with very little space between my ear and my shoulder, I would look like I'm not confident, right? I feel like I don't— you would not want to take advice from me. And so the more this is maximized, the more someone is— we see that they are proud enough to leave this down, to not protect themselves. And the second distance is the distance between your torso and your arm. When we see someone have space here, we think, ah, they're not being protective. They're gesturing, they're open, they're free. It's a very quick way that we judge if someone looks confident or not. So you wanna maximize those distances on video, on stage, in person. Those are just a couple of the first, first impression ones. I have a lot, but those are my favorite ones.

That's, those are all like, uh, insanely cool. Not that hard to do, but like really, really powerful.

So in your book, super easy.

In your book, is that you're going through how many, like how many cues do you have? 97. 97 that are in this book?

97 cues. Yeah, 97 cues in the book. And by the way, there are 97 cues in the book. Some are warm, like they're very, very warm cues. Like for example, a head tilt is a universal cue of warmth. When we expose our ear to the side, you perceive me as warmer. Like if I were to listen to you and deliver with a head tilt, you would perceive me as a little bit warmer. There's also competent cues. There are cues that make someone look smart. These are cues that smart people do. People in positions of power typically do. There are some cues that are so good they're both warm and competent. Those are like the best ones. And there's danger zone cues. Danger zone cues are cues that immediately take away from your perceived likability and competence. And I do want to make a note here, this is all based on foundational research. It is not my research. It's based on Dr. Susan Fiske's research out of Princeton, who found this model in 2002. It's been replicated many times of how we judge warmth and competence. But here's the problem, and this is what took my breath away when I read the study the first time. This is not your actual warmth and competence, it's your perceived warmth and competence. And this is the problem and the curse of very smart people. All of my students are high-achieving, very smart people, but they don't always show it. In fact, they have exceptionally good ideas. Typically they're like, my data speaks for itself, my product speaks for itself, my numbers speak for themselves. And so they prepare for the content, but they don't practice the delivery. And so they undersignal competence and undersignal warmth. If you undersignal, you are telling people to doubt and dismiss you because your cues tell others how to treat you. So if you are sending signals of warmth and competence, you will be treated with more trust and credibility. You also inspire it. Charismatic people are very contagious. If you undersignal, you are stoic, you are sterile, you don't show enough of the warmth and competence, people cannot believe you. They cannot. They're not getting enough of the social signals from you to be able to say, ah, I can trust this person, I can rely on them. And video has made this even harder because on Zoom you can't see my feet, you can't see my body positioning, we weren't able to handshake or hug, you weren't able to smell me. Like, all those things are happening in person. And so when we only have video or even only audio, we're really limiting the number of of signals we're sending. So we have to work even harder to show people you can trust me and you can believe me.

That's so cool. Um, well, I'm excited to dive a lot deeper into your work and understand it all. It's so fascinating. Um, you have your next book coming out in a couple months, or what month are we even right now? Anyway, what, what's the next transition? Because I'm curious, at least for me, I've got evolution of my books as they go through the process. Like, what's Q's, what's coming next?

Okay, so Captivate was first impressions and memorability. Q's was body language, a little bit of verbal in there. And this one is called Conversation. I just love those C words. I just love them. Um, I, I realized that there is a blueprint for conversation. Um, and people didn't know it. It's actually research by Dr. Dan McAdams who looked at how we connect with people. And there are 3 levels we have to move through in a conversation to be able to feel connected. And it is why we have bad small talk. The reason why awkward people like me were having awkward conversations is because I did not know how to get out of level 1. I was trapped in that small talk. So how are you? How's the fam? Been busy, right? Like, I could not get out of that trap. And so there is a way to get out of it. And so this book is on those 3 levels, and then I give 9 power questions that I hope that people will use and ask everyone in their life to be able to level up if they so choose. So, um, it's literally a decade of work and research to develop these 9 questions. We started just— I think you're— you love data. I had, I had this science. I knew about this science about these 3 levels. I was testing it. I was teaching with my students. We have, you know, thousands of students in my course People School, and I would have them test different questions for me. And we had a list of 60 hypotheses 60 questions that I thought maybe these could be unlocks. And so we would run speed networking tests. I'd have my students test these questions, narrowed down to 9. Like, only 9 were the unlock ones because it's a very hard of a question to balance cracking someone open, but also social acceptance. Like, I wish I could just start every conversation with, what's your greatest fear? But we cannot. So these are like socially acceptable questions. So that's, that's coming.

Yeah, that's amazing. Uh, and then is that gonna be the trilogy, put them all together, and then is there gonna be more after that, or you think that's it?

You never know. I might, I might pick a different, a different letter. Yeah, I might, I might make the next trilogy I. I'm thinking I. I won't tell you the word. There's an I word and there's an E word I'm thinking about. Okay. I, I like when Things match, I can't help it.

Yeah, I know, I love it, it's so cool. Well, this has been so much fun. I don't get to do a lot of interviews like this, and so it's just really fun to see the way you look at the world and how you see everything, and I'm really excited to dive a lot deeper with everything, and glad to finally connect and get to know ya. For all of my funnel hackers, my people who are in this journey somewhere along the way, what's the best place for them to connect to you and learn more about you and like plug into all the stuff you're doing?

Yes, so I am Vanessa Van Edwards on all all the socials, I think @vvanedwards on Instagram. I would love if you would join my email list. I am a funnel hacker, and you also will now know the science behind my email newsletter.

You'd be like, oh, I know what she's doing.

Got a warm one here. I've got a competent one here. And that's at scienceofpeople.com. That's my brand. And I give a free icebreaker, a social tip every Monday. So my goal is that you'll use the icebreaker in your team meetings or your family dinners or your date night or your friends. My whole goal is just to have better conversation. I promise to be aggressively helpful. That's my promise. And Russell, I just wanna thank you so much for, I was saying to my brother, my brother's with us here at my house with me, and I was like, Russell gave away, like just like gave away his business secrets. Like I was so shocked when I read your book for the first time, Expert Secrets for the first time. And I was like, he's just telling us the secrets. No one shares this. And I'm so grateful because I don't know if I would've been able to afford to keep going without that. You know, I, I, I wasn't able to financially figure out the financial piece of the business until I started doing webinars and courses. So I'm just so grateful for you being so aggressively helpful and sharing that content, cuz it's, it's, it allowed me to be able to do this work.

Yeah. Well, thank you for, um, for doing the, like, I'm sure you're the same way, like the most rewarding thing in the world to see people take your work and do something with it. And like, there's nothing nothing better than that. So I got your message and you're like, you know, I learned from you. I'm like, ah, this is the coolest thing. Like, that was the, the best gift I could have gotten.

So one day I'll share— whenever you want, I'll share my numbers with you so you can see like how good, how good they are, like how much they convert. They convert really well.

So I'm gonna go watch them all. They're on YouTube, right?

Yeah, they're on YouTube. Oh my goodness, don't watch the old ones, they're embarrassing. I was like figuring it out.

Oh, that's so cool. So thanks so much, I appreciate you, and I really enjoyed, uh, hanging out on the podcast.

Thanks so much for everything.

You guys know I've written a few books and people always ask me, how do you stay focused long enough to actually finish? Because let's be honest, writing isn't hard. Staying in the zone is hard. Email pops up, texts come in, you open one tab, and 45 minutes later you're watching something random on YouTube. That's why I use Freewrite. It's a distraction-free writing device built for one purpose. To help you get words out of your head and onto the page. No notifications, no internet, no browser tabs, just you and the draft. When I sit down with my Freewrite, my brain knows it's time to create. If you've got a book in you or a sales letter or the next big idea you've been putting off, go to www.getfreewrite.com/russell and grab yours. Turn off the noise, turn on the words. Your future bestseller is waiting.