What Happens When a University Starts Thinking Like Dan Kennedy?

Do you ever feel like you're stuck trying to sell something that everybody in the world sees as a commodity? Well, you have, everybody else has and can sell, and everyone's seen every single way to sell it. If you've ever felt like that, this episode is for you. Welcome to the Magnetic Marketing Podcast. In this episode, we're talking with Roger Cloudfelter, and Roger Cloudfelter works at the time of recording at High Point University, is in charge of enrollment marketing, and This becomes very interesting. You look at how enrollment usually happens. How do universities get attention? What is the process? And how do you do that? And how do you break that system down in order to be able to do more marketing Dan Kennedy style? Now we're gonna be talking about how he has broken through and done exactly that, but this is gonna go far more than just are you a commodity? This is gonna go into how do you create stick inside of your program? What is the cycle for finding and recruiting? And what are the things that set out from Dan Kennedy's trainings that can be applied into a niche you don't particularly think of very often in using magnetic marketing strategies. So with that said, let's go ahead and jump in as Dan Kennedy interviews Roger Klaudfelter with what happens when a university starts thinking like Dan Kennedy.

I don't think there's anybody that has had a bigger impact in the field of direct response than Dan Kennedy.

The legend of Dan Kennedy should be ignored at your own peril.

They're not really lessons. They're kind of laws. Laws that you live by.

Dan opened my eyes to what small business marketing looks like. Dan teaches strategic direct response that is timeless.

His ripple effect touches people who don't even know his name.

The world as we know it was changed because Dan Kennedy became obsessed with marketing.

Welcome to the Magnetic Marketing Podcast with your host, Dan Kennedy. Good afternoon, everybody.

Welcome to the, uh, Diamond Call for the month. If that's where you're supposed to be, then you are in the right place. So today, a busy guy is volunteering time for us, Roger Klotfelder from High Point University. And of course, many of you on the call are familiar with High Point. He is the Senior Vice President for Communications. And is basically in charge of— they probably don't even use the terminology, but enrollment marketing. We'll use it here on the call. The getting of students and the freshman class recruitment is right in white-hot activity at the moment, so we'll talk a little bit about that. I've had an opportunity now a lot last year, oh, for the last 18 months or so to work with Roger and Nido Kamei at High Point on some marketing issues and initiatives. So we want to talk about that. But first, Roger, welcome to the call.

Thank you, Dan.

Glad to be here., and we sure appreciate you taking time out of a busy schedule at a busy time. I'm going to let you do your own intro. So before we talk about High Point, maybe you can tell folks just a little bit about how you got there, your background, and everything you kind of have your hands in now at High Point.

Great. Thank you, Dan.

I—

High Point University was founded in 1924 in partnership with the Methodist Church and the local city here, High Point. I came in 1996 fresh out of college, and I worked in the admissions office. So I traveled around, I had a territory, set up shop behind a table at high school fair, you know, gymnasiums, and went and talked to students at guidance counselor offices and did all that for for several years. Back in 2005, Nito Qubein became our 7th president. When he got here, as one journalist called it, High Point University was a dusty old college. We were small. We had great people, but nothing really distinguished High Point University from the thousands of options they had elsewhere. We talked about being a small place where, you know, it was friendly. We had no distinguishing programs, no distinguished campus, nothing that we could really hang our hat on to try to attract students. Dr. Gubbaim quickly tried to, one, reinvigorate the physical campus, which we've done. We've grown it from 90 acres to about close to 500 acres now and went on a spree to spruce up this campus and try to create some unique aspects to what we do. He asked me to— I worked as Director of WOW when he got here, trying to create WOW moments on campus while also removing un-WOWs from campus. So a very— we became a very customer-focused institution. Customer in the world of higher ed is not necessarily received well, Certainly in our administrative meetings, we talk that way quite a bit, and we've tried to make sure we're providing value for students and work to provide a culture that's marketing-oriented, that thinks about sales and thinks about customer service. So we've had steady enrollment growth really since '05. We hit a lull in '17 and had an off year., which concerned us. And at that point, Dr. Cobain reached out to Dan and wanted Dan to come in and try to look at what we were doing and help us improve. And once that happened, the marketing function that was previously in the Office of Admissions was moved over to my area of communication where I had worked more generally on brand awareness our High Point University magazine, our website, a lot of things that supported admissions, but I wasn't involved until then with the direct marketing of High Point University to prospective students and families. So we engaged with Dan after a bad year and corrected that immediately for 2018 where we had a record enrollment. Back in 2005, our total enrollment was 1,450 students. This past year, we brought in more than that in our freshman class alone. Today, we're at about 5,200 students total with graduate programs and doctoral programs also. So, we corrected our issues last year, and we're, as Dan mentioned earlier, we're in the middle of our recruitment cycle right now. With deadlines. Today's our early action deadline and, you know, it's looking good. We had an early decision deadline, which is a binding agreement for incoming families, and we're up 15% this year coming off of a record year last year. So things right now are looking good for us, and that kind of gives you an overview of— Dan, does that answer your kind of the question about where we were, where we are today?

Yep. I want to give people just a little more sense of, size and scale, and then I want to talk a little bit about, and you alluded to it, sort of the controversial aspect of being customer-centric. And then I want to talk about kind of the unique marketing challenge of the condensed period of time in which things have to happen. So, Give everybody sort of a sense of the investments that have been made in High Point, you know, since our friend arrived. Sure. Number of buildings, amount of money, new programs, that kind of thing.

Gotcha. In '05, we had about 22 buildings on our campus. Today, or we've added since then about 100. And that's new buildings and a smaller percentage of acquired facilities. But when we went from, you know, our 91 acres to close to 500, a few of those were residential properties we acquired and expanded our campus. We had 3 academic programs in 2005. Today we have 9. We had no doctoral program. Today we have a couple, pharmacy, PharmD program, and educational leadership doctorate program. We had about 100 faculty in 2005. Today we have close to 400. We had an operating budget and capital budget about $38 million in '05. Today it's about $300 million. So a $2 billion investment on campus with only about 6% of that borrowed. So I mean, Dr. Gubbain came in, you know, kind of like a bull in a china shop with great business acumen and borrowed a little bit of money, which in higher ed people thought that was crazy. But it's, you know, the proof is in the pudding. Things have turned out very well based on that investment. And the focus on trying to render a lot of value And Dan, you know, I don't know if you want me to go into the customer thing, but—

Yeah, I do. I want to talk a little bit about why that's sort of controversial and how academia as a whole kind of has a problem with it, and you have to sort of thread a political needle, you know, in order to even do some of the things that you want to do and you and I want to do.

Yeah. I tell you, in '05 when Dr. Gubbay started talking about how we're going to build this campus and, you know, we don't get paid unless we have students here, no one at all talked about that. You are starting to see now some college leaders talk more in those terms. They're not as blunt as Dr. Gubbay put it, but you're starting to see more of it. But academia, at least back in '05 when we started,— and it's still in many ways like this— is set up where faculty sometimes feel like the institution exists to serve them. And, you know, Dr. Gurbane is a business guy, you know, couldn't relate to that at all, and quickly saw that a lot of systems in place were set up for the convenience of the institution, not the convenience of our customer or our client, and that's kind of the term we use publicly here is client. That seems to go over a little bit better than customer. You know, we started changing those types of processes. And of course, along with that in terms of a culture and how you take care of people, that lends itself into advertising and marketing and how you're trying to position yourself too because the language that you use as an institution, you know, you might say lofty and not really accessible to general people, the general public. We started changing to talk directly to students and to parents. And Dr. Gubane, you know, because he's a good communicator, had lots of meetings, particularly early on, trying to change the culture and talk very frankly with faculty and staff about why we've got to change or we're going to die. And, you know, luckily, you know, he had some quick success. He raised $20 million in about 30 days and moved so fast that even the people who may have been concerned really didn't have time to try to hinder the progress.

So—

Well, there's a lesson there, isn't there?

Absolutely. Speed. So we talk a lot about unique selling propositions and unique value propositions. And college, like really every other product or service, tends to be commoditized. People seem— tend to find ways to sort of make the same claims. Tell me a little bit about, oh, a couple of the unique elements, the sales course, the sales club, the mandatory life skills program, anything else you want to mention, and the overall positioning and how even most recently you've been working on changing that.

Yeah. So, you know, we're using a term now, a unique identifier, Premier Life Skills University, which I would tell you we've always been working towards under Dr. Cobain's leadership, but we're articulating it better. And I give Dan a lot of credit for helping us have kind of the brand confidence to to step out and be more vocal with that. But Dr. Culvain is our most unique selling point for High Point University, which is a blessing and a challenge at the same time. And trying to deliver the message to families that we're preparing students for the real world. And we provide an amazing practical education. And it's not just about the much-needed intelligence you'll learn in the classroom. It's also about understanding context to the world and rendering value. That's why parents ultimately want their student to be at High Point University. And for the student, we've built this amazing campus. With wonderful student recreation facilities, housing facilities, dining facilities, and it's safe. And we play up the safety quite a bit because we know parents care about that. So, I mean, in a nutshell, those are the two, you know, I think most unique identifiers. Dan, you referenced Dr. Guibeng's course. He does teach a freshman class for all entering students that's required for freshmen.. And it's called the President's Seminar on Life Skills. We've tried to position that in a way that companies spend billions of dollars bringing in consultants to their company to help further the abilities of their employees. And here at High Point, we're providing that executive education really in tandem with what's going on with what people know as a traditional college education. He teaches a freshman class and he talks about things that business leaders care about, human relational capital, time and energy management, communication skills, fiscal literacy. You know, these things that as a consultant he may have worked with employees on at companies, these freshman students are picking up on. And it really helps to frame the way they spend their time and think about things for the next 4 years where they're here at High Point. We have a sales education program. They have a 100% job placement rate for all those students who majored in that program. Overall, High Point University, you know, is proud to have a 96% outcomes rate for all of our graduates within 6 months of graduating, 96%. Which is about 12 points above the national average. And it's interesting, one of our friendly rivals, I've noted, has the same 96%, except they've extended the national protocol for reporting from a 6-month standard to a 9-month standard. And I tell you that just to let— I tell you that just to let you know that we are living in a competitive— the higher ed market is just as competitive as any market that's out there. And that's a tiny example of what I mean. There's only one reason that that school bothered to change that reporting protocol, because they were trying to make sure they could match our number.

Yeah, I think that this is, you know, people don't— really understand how competitive it is. And you have the added sort of challenge, I guess, of it being pretty compressed. Um, I mean, look, you have a, you have a number of seats you have to fill. It's finite at the top and it's solid at the bottom. You got to get that number, um, and you've got to get them every year, and you've got to get them in a relatively short selling cycle. Talk a little bit about that and about process for that matter.

Yeah. So we're buying names, you know, this is all changing in our world, but we're buying names for prospects now at the end of like sophomore year in high school. So we're trying to put High Point University in front of prospects, you know, almost 2 years away from when they have to move in. But still, the end of their junior year in high school through August when they move in, you know, after their senior year in high school, that's really our The crazy season is, you know, July through the application process through December, but then you're still having to, after they've been admitted, you know, your recruitment starts all over with trying to move them through your funnel, pay a deposit, come in and get your class schedule, and ultimately pay your bill and move in. So we have one year really, one year to really try to move these students and families, you know, to commit to High Point University. How much of it is dependent upon a physical visit? Oh, visiting, in our case, the visit is everything. We cannot enroll a student who hasn't visited High Point University because we're not competing on price. We know we charge $50,000, and that's the low point when you consider additional housing options that freshmen have the ability to upgrade. You could be looking at a $60,000 tuition, room, and board bill per year. So we compete completely on value. So getting them here for a visit, Dan, is is we know we can't enroll them unless we get them here. So, you know, visiting honestly is even more important than trying to get them to apply the way we think of it because we know that if we can't get them to visit, there's no chance we have of enrolling them. And summer is a busy period for visits. Those visits sink because the campus doesn't show itself as well as it does when students are living here. So, the fall season is where it's at. This year, for instance, we've added 2 additional open houses, one because we had weather issues, the other because we just recognized how important that is. And we actually made our last 2 open houses instant decision day. So, in addition to coming to visit, one of the hooks was if you will apply by November 12th, We will actually let you know about whether you've been admitted while you're here for your visit. So this Saturday, we've got a big production going on where we'll have a huge open house for us, over 500 students. We have overflow seating for that, and we'll be allowing a bunch of those students who have applied to find out that they have been admitted.

So let me— and correct me if I muck any of this up, but so sort of an overview of the process. You are having to get hands raised, generate leads, a lot of direct mail and a lot of online and a little bit of some other things. Some of the people on the call will have seen the magazine, for example. And once they raise their hand, one of the relatively recent changes is you begin talking to them to some extent on two tracks, one to the student and one to the parent, and you're trying to get them to go through a, preliminary qualifying process, then you want to get them to campus, then you have early decision and early action, and this new instant approval. At some point this becomes binding and they take the— they drop the other schools they may have been looking at or communicating with. And they're yours and money starts to change hands, housing starts to get assigned.

Have I got it about right? Yeah, yeah, that's right, Dan. We're looking for leads, we want them to come to campus and the effort we, you know, one of the things that you've really helped us with is this idea of undemocratizing spend. One of the things we were doing very poorly, um, in our year that we, that we didn't do well, and honestly before then, is we just kind of, we had our list and, um, everybody got, um, the same stuff. And that has really changed. So when you're talking about, you know, once you get leads, some kind of qualifying item. We've tried to qualify the leads. We're doing a better job of that now and working more vigorously to bring in the students that our data suggests are more likely to become students at High Point University. Yeah, but getting them to visit and then, yeah, November 1st, November 15th are application deadlines. November 1st is so critical. Because that's the binding— early decision is the binding program. And many colleges have this. But that you really have a high— you yield most of those because they quit dating every other school, and you're going steady with them at that point. So, you know, you get most of those. So that's important. November 15th is the next one. Everybody finds out they've been admitted by the end of November, first of December. And then, yeah, costs start to come into play. The emotion of I love this place dissipates slightly, and the reality of what is this going to cost, do I want to do this, sets in. And we're actually, we're prepping kind of campaign materials now for that next phase that will enter into January and February with scholarship opportunities. High Point University does very little discounting. So we do scholarships for top academic achievers, but it's not the kind of money they can get at other institutions. And so we have to interpret the value of our scholarship process, which we talk about being more personal, more built around wanting you to come to campus again and interview, and why meeting with you and learning about what you want to accomplish is so important., and then additional monies become available when they qualify by coming to a Presidential Scholarship Weekend. That's designed to get them on campus if they hadn't been or back on campus again so they spend more time with us. And those things help to offset the fact that ultimately for most of those students, the financial award we might offer them is not nearly what they might get somewhere else.. And yet we yield, you know, 70% or so of our—

of these top academic students even though they're getting better academic offers from almost everyone else. So a win for you, I think it's instructive, is not really as simple as we got X number of seats, if we get them sold and we get a full freshman class, we can all celebrate and take a month off on the beach. It's getting the right student, the right kind of mix of students, students who are going to succeed, who, well, who are highly likely to go the distance and who are going to succeed, so your 96% thing stays intact. Students from families who are going to be extremely grateful for the end product and be future donors. I mean, there's a lot of things you're trying to manage in the 1,400 and some odd, whatever that number is, that you fill every year for freshmen.

Yeah, I mean, you know, 1,500 freshmen, we know we could get 2,000 freshmen if we wanted to discount our price by 50%. So, we've got, you know, our financial model that we need to be able to maintain, which is the low discount rate, but does so many other things for you. When you're not discounting that greatly, you're crafting a class of people that want to be at High Point. High Point is a first choice. You know, anecdotally, I can tell you as someone who worked in the enrollment field directly here back in the day, we were a second, third, fourth choice school for people. You want to know what that does to your environment every single day. It makes a huge difference. So having a class that desires to be where they are and not just there because they didn't get into their first choice does impact the the entire culture of the institution. And so, you know, that may sound silly, but I believe that very much. So, you know, on my end of it, I'm always, you know, in our materials we're working on, how do we create the kind of branded systems that's going to, that a student and a parent's going to love to get. And yes, at the same time, Dan, you got to attract academically the right kind because you do need, you know, we still in our world, our peers still have a lot of power over us in the sense that they are involved in how we're ranked in a lot of these rankings. So retention rates and graduation rates and outcome rates are all important. So yeah, it's a mix of financial priorities, academic priorities, institutional priorities from the standpoint of Families who are able to help us beyond just having their student here is important. So finding, you know, you're trying to curate the perfect world with that class.

And it doesn't end until August when they move on to campus and pay their bill. And I think that's really instructive to people because see, I talk all the time about who you choose to sell to and how you sell has far-reaching and lasting impact beyond making the sale. And a lot of businesses are superficial and simplistic about this, sometimes desperate about this, and not really very strategic and sophisticated about who they are bringing in to be their customers. And the kind of sort of matrix of criteria that you're dealing with really should exist, I believe, in most businesses. You also have all these points along the way where somebody who has given you a conditional, transitional, sequential yes can, can fall out the bottom, can reverse themselves. Talk a little bit about the— what I would call a stick program—

how you keep them, um, from reversing themselves. Yeah, um, yeah, once they're admitted, I mean we're having a hard time kind of— we have to fight fatigue on this, right? Because once they're admitted, we kind of start over again and have to remind them every day why they fell in love with us to begin with. Well, you know, we talked about the scholarship program from one. We just put a piece together and, Dan, you won't like where we ended with it. I originally wanted to have this scholarship piece that said this is how we do it versus this is how common colleges do it. And the common college, throws a big shock and awe award in front of you to try to grab you and get your attention without any regard for what kind of person you are. They're just going by math on a grade. Whereas ours, our process is we want to meet you. We want to learn about your goals and dreams. And we're going to be able to add to your scholarship that we give you upfront because we know it's going to be less than what they're getting somewhere else. And then when we learn about your role as a leader and somebody who does volunteer service and all those types of things, you know, you're going to want to join our family. So, you know, that's just how we talk about it with scholarship. We talk a lot about the term family. We go to a ton of emotional type content once they have been admitted. Coming back to campus is a primary way we keep these people interested and from leaving us. One of our unique programs here is an in-residence program where we've got Apple co-founder Steve Wozniak as our innovator in residence, Netflix co-founder Marc Randolph, is our entrepreneur in residence. ABC Nightline journalist Byron Pitts is our journalist in residence, and on and on and on. And we're trying to grow that program. That's a unique proposition for us. They come in several times a year and meet with students. We also use those people at events in our spring cycle. So after they've been admitted, and say, you've got to come to this summit event where you're going to get to meet Steve Wozniak, take your picture with him and ask him questions, that kind of thing. So that— and we stand out in that way. I mean, every other college is probably telling them to come visit, but not every other college— no other college is saying, come meet Apple co-founder, Netflix co-founder. And then we get them back on campus, you know, inevitably. And Dan, you've talked to me a lot about this with how we do our tour. The longer we can have them here, the higher the likelihood that we can get them to say yes. So those spring visits are critical to our success also. I told you we enrolled, you know, 70-some percent of our Presidential Scholars, and that's because they come to an event. We did that last year with these summit events with these innovator people, and those people yielded an even higher percentage. So Those are some of the big things we're doing in the spring to try to make sure that we don't lose them along the way.

So if you would talk— that, by the way, emphasizes, you know, the power of celebrity. Yeah. And we talk about that a lot with every kind of business. And often people think, well, it doesn't apply to my business. And here's another example where it applies to a business people might not think that it would normally apply to. But so talk a little bit now about the past 18 months or so. I mean, what— of, um, my meddling in your work with me has, uh, um, uh, has maybe been most useful or most surprising or, uh, yeah, uh, sort of the most interesting part of the journey for you?

I can't. Okay, so let me— I want to go back, if I can, to the celebrity thing real quick, Dan, then I will answer your question about your work with us. With, take Steve Wozniak, Apple co-founder, you're talking about some of your clients may not necessarily see the benefit of celebrity. When I first got Woz to be our guy innovator in residence, we had people who thought that we should only be connecting with people interested in computer science, you know, or engineering with regard to Steve Wozniak. And I'm like, oh my gosh, it doesn't matter if you're interested in Steve Wozniak's brain or not, the power of Apple, and it's Apple, not necessarily the guy Steve Wozniak, is universal. I mean, those things, we don't ever try to put any of our prospective clients in a box with any of that. You may not be interested in journalism, but you've heard of ABC News. So Byron Pitts, even though no one's heard of Byron Pitts, they've all heard of ABC News. Those things carry great weight. And I've talked to several students who, I mean, literally, they've told us this, they came to see us because they heard about Apple or Netflix. So that has been huge for us. And I don't think it has anything to do with what any student might be interested in. We have very few students in computer science.. But that celebrity is, I mean, you're right, it has an amazing effect on people. Okay, you were asking about, I think, Dan, some of the stuff that, one, just we were not doing anything. We weren't being very good about asking people specifically what we wanted them to do. We had all this material and we've always been kind of heavy in print and are even more so now. And a lot of schools are getting away from that, which I think is wonderful for us. But we didn't— we weren't really leading the customer through a process. We just were saying, look at us. And now hardly anything we do doesn't have a very specific call to action, and you helped us develop that. And even down to, you know, here's what to do now, or here is your next step. That's one thing that, you know, it seems now I feel like it's silly that we weren't doing that before, but we weren't doing a very good job. And even in pieces there we thought we might have, when we go back and look at them now, we realize that you can't be specific enough. About that. One of the things that I heard you talk about at one of the events was that marketers need some type of evergreen material to be sustainable in this business. And I've even got a pie chart now in our war room here, and we created a war room because of you. In our war room, and it's a pie chart, and it says 80% curate, 20% create. We've got more material than we could ever really need, and occasionally we have to change some of it, but there's no way to be in front of your audience as much as you need to be, this is what we found, without having, you know, a toolbox of material that's basically ready to go. So, you talk about the Chinese menu where, you know, you've got whatever your unique proposition pieces are, And that works out perfectly for us because we might need you to apply, that might be our call to action, but next week we're going to need you to pay a deposit. And then the week after that we're going to need you to sign up to come to an orientation event and get your class schedule. So having that stable of material has been, you know, really important for us and we've gotten a lot better in trying to manage all that, although we still are creating stuff and one of the problems we have is with our team here that, you know, the team gets tired of seeing some of the same material and, you know, I tell them nobody ever went to a Jimmy Buffett concert and got mad when he played Margaritaville. I mean, you got greatest hits content and you got to wear it out. So, we're, you know, you helped us greatly with that and the Chinese menu concept is something we talk about all the time. It is even in our vernacular here now, which is pretty cool. You've talked about if you can't get the customer to take your offer, then maybe you give them a lesser offer. And we had a great experiment with that this year where we— in trying to drive open house visits. And one of our challenges, You know, it's a great thing. Dr. Gervais is a unique entity for us. The challenge with that is trying to explain to customers who are in this mindset of they're going to go visit a lot of colleges and they may have even been to some visits and open houses. No one understands that a place might be full or no one understands they need to be in a room to hear the president speak. So we were trying to create urgency and demand by saying, look, our venue fills up. You're going to be in an overflow space. You're not going to get to meet Dr. You got to meet him. So we wanted you to take this quiz. And if they took the quiz, we said we're FedExing you golden tickets, overnighting you golden tickets. Another thing you helped us with, create urgency, like the whole, the FedEx piece and getting to them quickly. And it didn't go over very well. So we said, okay, well, let's make them lesser offers. So then we just went through our list, pulled out the best, and we mailed them FedEx golden tickets saying, if you don't sign up, you're not going to be able to come to this thing. Now activate your tickets today so you can see Dr. Cobain and be at our open house. And that did much better for us. So, you know, we didn't just try something and stop. We thought about a lesser offer and, you know, try to put that in place. Quiz. You brought the idea of quizzes to us as a way to engage people and get them to think. The quiz is an amazing thing for us because I think your whole point was always like, how can I get my customer to take a moment to consider the value of what I'm offering them? And our early decision quiz that we built to try to interpret the value of why you should apply early decision has been a bedrock for us this whole— it was last year and we used it a lot more this year. Every week that quiz went out to people and they took it and we followed up with them. And that generated a ton of early decision traffic. And I think it was particularly for high school kids, and we sent it to their parents also, it was an amazing way to get them to understand why they should apply early decision to High Point and drop all the other schools they're looking at. So those are a few of the things that I would say right off the bat.

Does that help to answer the question, Dan? Yep, yep, yep, yep. And in just a couple minutes, we're going to let people who want in to talk with you and/or me, we're going to go there. And But I want you to know it's been a pleasure. It's been fun working with you because you're really an implementer and not all clients are.

Maybe next year I'll get up there and I'll get to see the war room. Thank you for listening to the Magnetic Marketing Podcast with Dan Kennedy. If you love hearing in on these lost Dan Kennedy talks and speeches and calls, then please let someone else know about this podcast. That's how you can help it to grow, and the more it grows, the more free Dan Kennedy we can bring to you. Also, Dan would love to give you the most incredible free gift ever designed to help you make maximum money in minimum time. Now this free gift comes with almost $20,000 in pure money-making information for free just for saying maybe. You can get this gift from Dan right now at noBSletter.com. Not only do you get the $20,000 $10,000 gift, you also need a subscription to 2 marketing newsletters that will be hand-delivered by the mailman to your mailbox each and every month. One from Dan Kennedy and one from me, Russell Brunson.

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