When Buyers Say "No" With Tom Hopkins

Welcome everybody to the Magnetic Marketing Podcast. In today's episode, we get to listen to Dan Kennedy as he interviews Tom Hopkins. Now, Tom Hopkins is the author of How to Master the Art of Selling, but more recently, the book When Buyers Say No, which is the topic today. These are the strategies to keep a sale moving forward. Now, a lot of times entrepreneurs don't like the word no, whether you're a salesperson or entrepreneur, it's not something we're really comfortable hearing. However, Tom insists that in all actuality, selling can't begin until the buyer first says no. Now, not only are we gonna get Tom's opinions on this, but you're gonna hear Tom and Dan go back and forth on the things that work best for them, from the art of being a good listener to asking the right questions to scripts and how you manage price objections, all of the above. This is going to be one of those episodes that can change the trajectory of your entire business. Let's jump in.

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Welcome to the Magnetic Marketing Podcast with your host, Dan Kennedy.

I have with me, and we will get right to him in just a minute or two, Tom Hopkins. As you all should know, and you should all be pretty familiar with Tom. A number I did not know until I was digging in currently was Tom's original book, The Art of Selling, has sold more than 1.6 million copies, which for a business book is absolutely remarkable. And I know he doesn't have that many relatives, so that's way up there. The new book, we hope it does as well, When Buyers Say No: Essential Strategies for Keeping a Sale Moving Forward, will be our chief topic here today, and if you haven't already, gotten a copy of the book for yourself and perhaps several copies for staff people. I'm sure you will want to by the time that we finish. So Tom, welcome and thank you. We're excited to have you.

Well, thank you, Dan. Gosh, it's good to talk with you and of course have a chance to share some of the new ideas that we're bringing to the marketplace as far as your subject, which is marketing, and mine, which is sales. So good to be with you.

So are you at home? Are you on the road?

Are you— where are you? No, I'm at home here in Scottsdale. And yeah, just in my office. And I've got about a week, which I just got back from Europe, so I'm, you know, thrilled about that because I want to get— had a little jet lag challenge this trip, but I'll be fine in a few days.

Well, good. Glad you're home and you're safe. So let's just dig right in. And as I went through the book, I spent a little extra time on Chapter 2. I think that the whole idea of understanding what no really means is a big one and a great one. I think a lot of people take a no too easily, not just in selling but in life, misunderstand it. Respond inappropriately and so forth. And so if you would, let's start there and talk a little bit about how people get, uh, get messed up, uh, about what a no actually means.

Well, let me premise this by saying that, you know, after about 4 years in the real estate business and having, you know, set some records for annual number of sales That's when I decided that I was really going to make it a science to understand not only why people say no, but what nos mean. So I started gathering data. I started analyzing it. I even had one major company allow me to talk with some of the buyers that didn't buy that they had shown products to so that I could actually find out why they said no. The reason I'm so excited about this new book is because nothing really begins in selling until they say no. In other words, if you analyze selling anything, if there were not a no there, we would never need anyone in sales because they would just order it. Of course, that's happening somewhat on the internet, but I think that the average person in sales doesn't grasp the fact that Human nature-wise, the average American— and we always kind of talk averages— they can't spend money on almost anything, which is a yes, an investment, until they come up with some reason to say no. So I learned over the years that most people won't say yes until they say no. So why be afraid of no? Let's know why it's coming at you. Of course, there are 7 basic reasons why people say no to spending money on anything. So that's kind of where— that's Chapter 2 in essence to analyze that first of all, most people just don't say yes until there's some type of no. So then we have to say, all right, let's dissect what these 7 nos are. So that's kind of what Chapter 2 is all about.

Yeah, it's a great line. Hardly anybody says yes until they first say no. That absolutely is human behavior, right? I mean—

Oh, exactly.

So let me ask you a side question that I did not plan on asking you, but that this begs. You and I sell when we are not face-to-face and can't get interpersonal feedback. We sell to groups, right? So when you think about it, everybody in a group is mentally saying no before they are saying yes, and yet they are all saying no for different reasons. So what's been your approach? And, you know, you've probably sold as much one-to-many wonder groups as anybody walking around on the planet. What's been your approach in building those kinds of presentations when you know you got 5,000 people in the room and they're all mentally saying no for different reasons?

Well, I always have had a bunch of philosophies, Dan, and one of them is that when people come into a group situation where there is anyone up on a stage presenting, they immediately have defense barriers up. And so in a way they have prepared in a way to say no. But I've also found that if you can win them over in a rapid fashion by them seeing the benefits to first of all listening to the words you say, then opening their minds to how the words can be a positive for them. Then suddenly once their minds get opened, then they get what we call curious to not only want more information, but then they say, "I like this, and if there's more based on what I've heard, I want to have that." That's one reason why I think if you have a good presentation, you'll have a high closing ratio of sale. If you have a lousy presentation, the people won't want to take home anything because they weren't thrilled with what you did when you were with them. I've always approached the audience in the beginning that sure they've come in with a nose because that's defense barriers, especially back when you and I started there were very few seminars, very few people in the business. Today, of course, it's become a worldwide phenomenon that people want education. They want to attend some type of function that will give them self-improvement. Our industry has just blossomed, but because of that people have defenses up. Greater than they have in the past. And not only that, we've got a lot of things that happen today. The average American today is much more of a procrastinator than they would have been 20 or 30 years ago. And procrastination is kind of a way of life for many people. So even if they are excited to say yes, the procrastination is maybe the reason for at this time saying no. But it doesn't mean no. It means I'm just not ready. I've got to have more information. I need to know more benefits. Or these are some of the reasons. Also, many people in sales, Dan, don't know the art of qualifying. And because they don't qualify properly, they're not hitting the right, what we call hot buttons emotionally, to where that person who was going to say no now wants to say yes.

So pick one of the 7. Okay, um, I won't ask you to give away the store and the whole thing. Yeah, well, and we want to, you know, we want to sell some books, right?

Sure.

Well, but, but pick one of the 7 and talk a little bit about a person hearing no and thinking it means one thing when in reality it means something All right. Well, let's take a couple.

The first one is lingering questions. That's a reason people say no. In other words, in sales, the word no very often means that the buyer hasn't had all of their questions answered. Perhaps maybe they're a little confused about how the product compares to the competition. Now this is a very important little statement. A confused mind almost has to say no. So if they're in any way confused about the product, this leads to procrastination. It's an instinctive protective device of the human psyche. Now if the buyer doesn't see a clear way to go, he'll tend to put off making any kind of decision.

Yeah, it's fair to say too hardly anybody is willing to fess up about this.

Anybody, right?

I mean, certainly any prospect is going to just say, I don't get it. They're going to mask their confusion or lack of comprehension in some other response.

Exactly. And see, here's the challenge too, Dan. Many people in sales are smart about what they're talking about, and the poor person across the desk or table isn't. People aren't going to come across and say, "You know what? I must be a dummy. I don't get it." No, they will just basically say, "You know, I don't think we're ready yet," which is a type of no, or "Get back to us," which again is another no. Again, it's because the salesperson has either overwhelmed them with too much information or in a way didn't really educate them properly in the sales presentation process.

So I have another one and I'll tell a quick story and I'll tell it quickly because many people on the call will have heard it, but I'm curious if you have a comparable or where you would put it in your 7. Some— I guess 5 years ago now, I did a lot of work for a large hearing aid company, 1,200 stores across the country. And one of the things we did is we wired up supposedly their best salespeople and recorded them doing actual presentations, not role play, but actual presentations. And they knew they were being recorded, of course. It didn't improve their performance much, but they did know they were being recorded. When it comes to price, at one point, the elderly fellow who is there because he needs hearing aids, he responds to the price by saying, gee, I wasn't planning on spending that kind of money on myself. Now, the salesman immediately— well, you will know, of course— the salesman immediately launches into a regurgitation of the reasons why the product is priced as it is. It's made of rare palladium gathered from the east side of the mountain rather than ordinary aluminum, and 22 scientists worked on it, not one, and the technology is state-of-the-art and all that, right? And of course what the guy was really saying, the keywords were on me. What he was really saying was at my age I'm trying to I want to leave as much money in the bank as I can for my kids and my grandkids, and I feel guilty about spending anything on myself. That's what he was really saying, and which begs a completely different response than a discussion of quality, right?

Technical quality, right.

Yeah, it wasn't a challenge to quality or really a challenge to price at all. How often do you find that mistake made? And how can people avoid it?

That is a huge part of this business. So many people in the field of sales, they make that mistake not knowing the real reason they're saying no. Or they're comparing themselves to it. Meaning in other words, this is why they might not be interested or this is why they could maybe not afford it. In doing so, they become part of the problem, not the solution. I have always found that, you know, the technical aspects are important, but many people in the field of sales, that's what they rely on is, again, all those little widgets and stuff you were talking about, about the hearing aid, instead of the emotional reasons to hear the loved ones and the children's laughter and to see the grandkids, which this man at his age I bet has grandkids. To be able to converse with them, that's worth much more than just the enjoyment of your own hearing.

Yeah, well, if you had never had anything to do with hearing aids, you have just demonstrated you could have sold more than their best salespeople. So the next thing I wanted to ask you about for the book, which I found fascinating. Oh good. Was in Chapter 15.

Okay.

And there you talked about sort of a more sophisticated aspect of selling negotiation. And I'll quote you back to you. In the book it says, salespeople sometimes become involved in negotiations but don't even realize what's happening. Buyers make negotiation requests and salespeople, still in the mindset of responding to concerns, or what I would call overcoming objections, mistake the negotiation request for concerns. Now on one level that a sales professional would actually be in negotiation and not realize it is sort of shocking. So talk about how that— how salespeople fall into that trap and just really miss an opportunity to be effective because they don't even understand what the customer is doing?

Well, first of all, there are two, I think, most important fundamentals in selling. It's the art of the right questioning and then, of course, being a very focused listener. This is something that is, again, we talk about the art of selling and it is in a way a lost art. Because the average person in selling is more interested in talking and telling than asking and listening. I think to really understand negotiation financially, you have to get behind, and that's one thing you said in a way, the hidden meaning behind the words. Because in many instances, the words aren't really what they mean, but it's the meaning behind the words. That's why a person has to be what I call a master. Asker, where they literally master asking the right questions, which gets a chance to smoke out the real hidden areas of concern or objections. And so again, this I come back to is the way you almost handle any stall or area of concern or objection is again opening them up with the right questions. And I kind of, as you know, you've read all my books I'm sure, or have them. That has been part of the foundation of my teaching is quit talking and telling and start asking and listening.

I think, and yes, I have them and yes, I actually have read them and freely stolen from them. There is sort of a misnomer about you. A misunderstanding about you that when I mention Tom Hopkins to people in sales and marketing, if there's a negative reaction, it is this. They have in their heads, of course, because they haven't read or haven't listened to, they've only heard from others. They have in their heads that you're a big script guy, that you are all about canned script selling when in reality if you study your stuff, if somebody studies your stuff, you are as much about the diagnostic interview, the structure of questions as you are about the structure of answers. Yet, I think you and I both agree that scripts make sense. How do you juggle the dichotomy between a planned and organized and scripted presentation and the really smart use of smart questions?

Well, first of all, there's a basic truth that almost every human being is using a script. Meaning, in other words, the average person right now listening to what we're saying If I walked up to them and said, "Good morning," most of them without thought would respond with the words, "Good morning." If I say, "Thank you," they will say, "You're welcome." Which again, these are little short everyday used scripts which are meaning they have learned what to say. And of course, I have always believed, as you know, Dan, that we are in a way in the word business. If you say something that works and you're helping people say yes to your offering and you're increasing your income, then to learn certain things that work and say and you say, there's nothing wrong with that. I don't like the concept of it's just a memorized phony script. I can tell you over my 8 years in front of people in the real estate business, almost all of them would They say, "We want to think it over." So I learned 108 words that in essence would help them get over that stall and give me something I could handle because you really can't handle "I want to think it over." Or if they said it costs too much, that's good because they are really saying, "I want it, but help me rationalize the money," which in a way is again a good thing. So again, I come back with the fact that "To say 14 words that I've learned over the years when they say it costs too much, which basically, John, today most things do. Can you tell me about how much too much you feel it is?" Well, see, sure, that is a word-for-word presentation. It doesn't come across like that, but it does help me find out my area of concern of money that I need to have. I've got to find out how much too much. Again, Dan, I've had people say this to me as you have. Most of them have never been at my seminar, never listened to my CDs, never watched my DVDs. Like you said earlier, which I like the way you prefaced that, these are people that have heard from others that there's that. As you know, at my boot camp, my weekend event, yes, we have a competition. Yes, we try to get them to stay up as much as they can the night of the program. So they will learn what I'm teaching them. Because that entire workbook I have word for word, not because I just wanted to memorize it, but I want to do what I ask my students to do. If the buyer knows what they're going to say, you need to know what you're going to say. It won't come across like it's a canned presentation because you've learned it, you've internalized it. It's like Tiger Woods. He does the same swing basically with It doesn't matter what the club is, and it's reflexive. He does it over and over again. It's repetition. And if he decided, look, I can't just keep doing this even though it works, I want to try to change it, his game would go down the tubes. Does that make any sense?

Yeah, and which, by the way, his game has gone down the tubes.

I know. I mean, it's brutal.

We've got Bridgestone coming up. Here in, uh, in Akron. I know. And, uh, you know, that's his course. So if he doesn't do well there, yeah, he's toast. Um, but, but, but, but some of that is trying to change a conditioned success practice, perhaps because of age or physical issues or head trip stuff, you know, or what— whatever. But I have this conversation with people all the time, you know, and they argue that— they argue for spontaneity, whereas what you and I are really talking about is flexibility, but having pieces of material memorized and practiced that we can use as the situation calls for.. And I think people are incredible— salespeople are incredibly lazy about this.

Yes, I agree.

They either just want to show up and be spontaneous or they want to lean on a PowerPoint presentation. So sort of in the same category of negotiation, let's tackle price. So, you know, as you said, one of the reasons that people stall or object or outright don't buy or don't feel they shouldn't buy all revolves around price. Most salespeople— well, a lot of salespeople are really good right up until it's time to talk money. Exactly. And then they dissemble and sort of fall apart. I mean, I've seen them where Body physiology changes. Voice tone changes. Everything changes when we start to get to money. You and I have seen speakers do it too. Sure. On stage. I think it's an incredibly important topic. Most people on the call know that in my No BS book series there is a No BS Price Strategy book. In your book, again I'll quote to you, you advise that a price concession is the last option. So take me through a little bit about how you coach salespeople to think about price and then as well tips on dealing with price with prospects.

All right. Let me start off by saying that it all really starts with the foundation of how you come across, how you begin your presentation, how you establish rapport, how— and of course in the new book we talk about the circle of persuasion, which is in essence how you build from the original meeting and build all the way from the maybes, the nos, the maybes to the yeses. The one thing I found over the years, Dan, is I try to be the opposite of what most people would be like when people talk about money. I'm going to give just a bunch of little strategies. One is to tell an example of why you chose this company. Kind of like if I were talking to John or John and Mary, I'd say, "As we kind of get started, I want you to know that there are other companies in the industry that do pretty pretty much what we do. I decided to do a lot of research so I could work with a company that I think offered the best service, product, and so forth. And I did that even though I knew that our company would be charging more. And I've learned over the years that in life you get what you pay for. So I was pleased to be able to say, you may invest a small amount more, but you will get much more as far as benefits and service when you make this investment. So again, that, Dan, is a strategy of almost bragging about it in the beginning. That takes it away from them worrying about it later. I like that a lot. Yeah, that's one of my favorite little strategies. But there's lots of things. For example, I used to love it when they'd say, well, you know, Tom, I've got to tell you, it's more than we want to pay. And then I would say, well, John, first of all, I'm thrilled to hear that because you wouldn't be worried about the investment unless you'd pretty much made your mind up that you were going to say yes to it. So I'm thrilled about that. And some of my happiest clients, they started off with a reservation as to the financial aspects. And I just want you to know that we're going to show you how you and your company will benefit so much that the money was forgotten when all the benefits arrived. Now, does that make sense?

That's pretty cool. You want to do one more?

Yeah, I used to, when they would say, well, Tom, I think we can get it cheaper somewhere else, I would always say, well, that may very well be true. And most people want the best investment for their money. A truth I've learned over the years is most companies can't offer the finest quality, the best service for the lowest price. And I'm curious, if we can make you happy with our product, which of the three would you be most willing to pay? Willing to give up fine, fine quality, excellent service, or maybe a few pennies a month for the product.

It's all very good, my friend. I have, uh, um, I have one last big question in a second, and, uh, then as long as you're willing to play, we'll be opening it up to folks who are on the call.

Oh, I'd love to. I love questions and answers.

So, and I probably should have done this up top, but we'll do it now. So, you know, the preface to this question is that you've been at this a long time. Me too. I remember when we were both kids in this business, and now we're, you know, the old dogs. Uh, and actually, you go back to J. Douglas Edwards, right?

That was my mentor, right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

So you started in the real estate business when?

Uh, in 1965. And, um, um, and, and speaking and training in 1972.

Do you have any idea how many audiences, how many people, how many companies have been processed by you?

Well, I am kind of a fanatic on setting goals, as you know. We've had over 4 million people attend my seminars live, and I have set a goal. I'm pretty sure that there are very few, if any, speakers in the United States ever that have conducted 5,000 one-day seminars. That's my goal. I'm at 4,696 now. I figure within— it's about an 8-year period based on the number I do now that I'll hit the 5,000. That will then be the time that I feel I've earned the right to say goodbye to the this wonderful profession. But that's kind of my goal. I think it's so fun that people come back now. Dan, I know you and I are old dogs at this, but whenever I go to a city, I do two things. I find young, high-powered, high-income earning people that are out in the street of sales. I usually have three of them and I ask companies that have relied on my training to get me one of their top people. So 3 companies do it. Then I spend time the evening before the seminar going through a briefing with them where I really just debrief them on what's the latest, the newest, what's happening. How was the stuff that your manager who I trained 12 years ago, how is it affecting? So I try my best to update what I teach because I do believe the world keeps changing. The only permanent thing we'll have is change. So I try my best to be flexible, as you mentioned, try to change, try to write new creative closing scripts and words and phraseology so that people who have been with me over the years will say, you know, hey— and that's another thing, Dan. I know you have this happen all the time, but to have a guy our age come up to me and say, hey, Tom, I just came by to say say, "Hi, 30 years ago I came to your seminar. I was brand new in sales and I brought my team because now I own this company and these 57 folks here in this room all work for me as the owner of the company and they live with your training." Well, see, that to me is what I call the payment to the teacher. That's when you get the reward of what you've done in your life helping others have a better life.

See, what I get is— so I used to get sort of the hot young saleswoman, can I have your autograph? Now I get, would you autograph this? Then I got, would you autograph this because my mother is your greatest fan? Now I get, would you autograph this because my grandmother is your greatest fan?

So yeah, I know, buddy. It's just an amazing, fast, wonderful life. So all this—

so you're right, obviously. And in my world, the greatest change is in media. And so a lot of people start to think new media means all new rules. And sure, the technology has changed. And to some extent, consumer preferences change. All that. There's also an idea that because of that everything old is antiquated. There was a big debate in direct marketing circles about 10 years ago when a very prominent— I won't name them because it makes them sound stupid, but so many people would know. A very, very prominent direct marketing person came out with a big a position paper that it was over for guarantees, that there was no point in having them, pitching them, presenting them because nobody believed them anymore and nobody cared about them anymore. And of course if we look at advertising and marketing and selling today, we find it is dependent on guarantees., you know, as ever, right? So my big question for you was not so much about the change but about what hasn't changed, about the eternal truths of selling that are literally the same today as they were 10 years ago, 20 years ago, and that probably at least you and I will be history, real history, dust in the wind before they change. What are the most reliable things that people—

Well, I'd like that question. Sure. I think it's called adaptability. Meaning as a culture changes, you must realize that people do change as to their buying habits, as to their procrastination desires. And again, you must be a very adaptable person and you've got to be willing to go through change yourself. I mean, you know, I always use analogies of sports because I'm a sports fanatic and a passionate golfer. But the 14 fundamental reflex movements of Jimmy Jones or any of the great golfers in the '40s and '50s, the fundamentals of the swing have not changed as to Tiger Woods, Phil Mickelson today. The equipment has changed. The strength of the golfer has changed. I mean, it was hard to believe, but back in the early days, golfers would never do any type of working out, muscle toning, because they wanted to not have their muscles get strong. They wanted them lean so they could have a full swing. That's all changed. Tiger Woods works out. He's got tremendous physique as far as his strength. Phil Mickelson has a really strong workout regimen. So there is an example. The equipment has changed, but the actual fundamentals don't change. The 7 fundamentals of selling a product or service, Dan, I don't think will ever change. We just have to adapt them to the times, to the people that we're in front of as far as our consumer. And we have to realize that the consumer is so much more educated than ever before. They can have access to not only pricing but all types of things on the internet today. So we, of course, as professional salespeople, have to be adaptable to know what's going on, what's our competition doing, what do we need to change. And then be flexible to be there at the time and place to make the transaction. Well, thanks a lot, Dan. You're a good friend.

Thank you, my friend.

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