Unspoken Security Ep 37: Is Your Ego Impeding Your Career Fulfillment?

I'm fortunate that I have the resources that to have a mental health army. Not everybody does. And one of the things, and one of the reasons I work part-time now is I'm trying to build an NGO to where I can do this kind of work with a board of actual clinicians for people that don't have the resources, especially in underprivileged or disenfranchised or whatever term you want to use groups. So they at least can, I call it spirit of catharsis where they can find ways to let out their anger or figure out their own intuition or figure out how to feel better about themselves.

Welcome to Unspoken Security, the raw and gritty podcast for security professionals who are looking to understand the most important issues related to making the world a safer place, including intelligence-driven security, risks and threats in the digital and physical world, and discussions related to corporate culture, leadership, and how world events impact all of us on and off our keyboards. In each episode, host AJ Nash engages with a range of industry experts to dissect current trends, share practical insights, and address the blunt truths surrounding all aspects of the security industry.

Hello and welcome to another episode of Unspoken Security. I'm your host, AJ Nash. I've spent 19 years in the intelligence community, mostly at NSA. I've been building and maturing intelligence programs in the private sector for about 9 years now. I'm passionate about intelligence, security, public speaking, mentoring, and teaching. I also have a master's degree in organizational leadership from Gonzaga University. Go Zags! And I continue to be deeply committed to servant leadership. Now, this podcast brings all of these elements together with some incredible guests to have authentic, unfiltered conversations on a wide range of challenging topics. It's not your typical polished podcast. My dog makes occasional appearances, and today could be one of those days. I got two dogs and nobody else in the house today, so we'll see what happens. People argue and debate. We even swear here. I definitely do. And that's all okay. Think of this podcast as a conversation you might hear at a bar after a long day at one of the larger cybersecurity conferences that we all attend. These are the conversations that we usually have when nobody's listening. Now, today I'm joined by Jennifer Leggio, Chief Strategy Officer of W2 Communications. She's a marketing and com— or that's a marketing and comms firm, and she has a lifetime in cybersecurity as a marketer. She's also done a lot of holistic healing work and education in her spare time, whatever spare time you get in this industry, I suppose. Anything you wanna add to that bio before we jump into the topic today, Jen?

No, it's great. But I didn't know you went to Gonzaga and years ago I had a cousin who was the dean there.

No kidding. Really?

Ages ago.

So that's very cool. Yeah. Uh, got my, got to love the Zags. Great school. Yeah. Small school, great program, good basketball. I got nothing but great things to say. I'm, I'm thankful for the opportunity and I should go back and do more at some point. So, I mean, it's a good place. Today is an interesting topic, right? Today we're gonna talk about, the title of the show is, is your ego impeding your career fulfillment? And I think it's a really interesting topic, right? So, and for full transparency, this was Jen's idea. As in most cases, whatever the topic we have is almost always the guest's idea. You know, there's so many things that can impede our happiness and growth in cyber, and ego is one, but imposter syndrome, trauma from toxic environments, and even our personal traumas. Set us on a path where we're less happy. So Jen and I are going to talk about how to get around some of this. And, you know, this topic that I think applies to a lot of people in the industry, if not everybody, frankly. And so I'm hopeful that we're going to be able to do some good for folks today. So let's jump right into it, Jen. What are some of the biggest challenges that most of us are dealing with but just won't discuss?

So I find there are 4 that, that I really bucket things into when talking about this. So it was interesting, I recently spoke on this topic and I had the room raise their hands to say if they could relate to some of the challenges. And it was interesting that so many people like ourselves that have decades of experience still struggle with these things. So it's an everybody thing. And, you know, the title of the podcast is Ego Impeding Your Success or Your Fulfillment. But, you know, it's not just ego. It's are you using ego versus self-energy where ego is very me, me, me, what's best for me? And I'll go more into this later. Self-energy is about what's best for everyone, despite the term self. Imposter syndrome, of course, which I think people talk a little bit more openly about in the industry lately, which I'm really glad for. But essentially, if someone's not familiar, it really means that you feel like a fraud. You're going to get found out any day now that you're not qualified for what you do. And I still feel it, which is crazy after all, after 25 years. And I know a lot of other friends do as well. And it's interesting when you look at the demographics of it, it affects the biggest demographic from the research that I compiled was women first. And then you get into racial minorities and then you get into transgender and LGBTQIA+. And then you get more into like, you know, the breakdown of men and that within engineers and so on and so forth. But you also have to consider that there are smaller slices of folks in demographics too, but affects everyone. It goes back to that toxic work environments. You know, hopefully you haven't been in one, but you—

Oh, I have. I've got some stories.

That was more the general you, but I think we've all been there. I've been in some pretty brutal ones and everybody's appetite and everybody's financial situation is different and how they can deal with it and if they can just walk away or not. And learning how to advocate and use your voice and use your voice in the right way is helpful. And then personal traumas that, because we need to be our full integrated selves in our lives to do well in anything in our personal lives and our professional lives, you can't pretend that certain things that might have happened to you personally don't affect how you take things in your place. So those are the 4 buckets. That I generally put things into when I think about my personal healing journey. Not a clinician, just lived a life and wanna try to help people learn from what I've learned.

Yeah, I mean, I think those are, I mean, I've experienced all of these, like I'm familiar with all of these, right? And, and this show isn't about me, but as you said, it's about everybody, right? And, and if anybody's wondering, yes, that was one of the dogs in the background. Like they decided to jump in early today and then we may get more of them. We'll see what happens. But anyway, going back to the topics, you know, to the, to the categories you talked about. So ego versus self-energy, I think is really interesting. Because, you know, that's a real, that's a real challenge, right? What am I doing? Am I really doing it for other people? You know, where is the line between advocating for yourself and narcissism, for instance? You know, I, you know, and I have a tough time with that one, right? And it kind of ties into imposter syndrome too. I personally have a tough time with both of these. I've told people many times, like, am I— the podcast is a good example. Is this useful and helpful and people enjoy it and I should keep doing it? Or am I just in my basement pretending to be David Letterman and it's pathetic and I should stop? And it depends on the day as to how I feel. By the way, I'm not in my basement at least, but it depends on the day as to how I feel about that. Right. And I, I have lots of conversations where I'm like, I don't know why people listen to anything I have to say. That's a daily challenge. And as you pointed out, the demographics, like, listen, I'm your typical middle-aged white guy. I should be the least infected, affected by this, statistically speaking. But I also had read that it, it's supposed to be sort of a good sign. I guess people who have imposter syndrome are generally pretty good at what they do, but they have humility. And if you don't have it, then you're kind of a narcissist a lot of times, right? So I guess that's good, but it's hard to live through. And then as you said, you know, the, the toxic environments, we've all probably dealt with that and have lots of stories. I wonder how much that ties to your last piece in there about the personal traumas. If the people that are toxic are bringing their personal trauma into the, the workspace, right? And, and inflicting it on others. But I, I love that you mentioned, you know, bringing your complete self in, right? I think that's a, a great movement that we've seen over the last, I don't know, 5, 10 years among at least, you know, leaders that I appreciate and, you know, like working with is that saying, hey, listen, just be who you are and we'll figure out how it fits in. Don't have to try to fit into a mold of others. And so to me, I think these are all, these are all things that resonate, right? I understand how all of these things, you know, work together. Do you want to share before we go in, you know, further in detail into the conversation? Do you want to share specifics on these that you've experienced or that you've studied or that you've talked to people about and you know, kind of dig a little further into, say, definitions on some of these pieces?

Yeah, I'd be, I'd be happy to. I might go a little bit out of order just because—

That's okay.

I thought of something else. The, you know, you mentioned other people might be bringing their own personal stuff to work and we see these like memes on Instagram. People say it all the time, but it's really true. You never know where somebody else is coming from. And a lot of times if they're for snickety or if they're mean or something, they're generally going through something or they have their own insecurities or what have you. So no matter what you're going through, if you can reach a state of being empathetic, even if you're dealing with stuff, that doesn't mean let people walk all over you. But I think that's an important thing to note. But that kind of ties into a toxic work environment story. There's one that I dealt with and I, I won't give a specific timeline cuz I give away the company, but at one point I was in a role doing marketing and I was at a board meeting and I was presenting on marketing, of course, since I was a CMO. And one of the board members just might have been a little bit influenced by outside stuff. Mm-hmm. And just started just screaming at me, like yelling at me about like how stupid I was and how I wasn't doing anything right. I was spending all this money even though I had a slide kind of about how I cut money to give money to get into engineering to help them get product market fit. Like a lot of marketers don't do, more marketers should do that. So, you know, and what was most, what hurt me the most about that situation, I was like, oh, this dude is kind of always like this. And I did the whole thing where I just kind of nodded and tried to be soothing 'cause I knew fighting with him, even though I probably could have decimated him verbally, was not going to do anyone any good. But what struck me is that where there were probably between Zoom and the room I was in, there were about 20 people on the call and nobody said a word. No one, not one person. And it was very jarring to me. And that still affects me even though I work in a safe work environment now. So I have to remind myself all the time that you're not walking into a meeting with so-and-so, the people that you're working with now, are going to have your back. Like, I have to. So that's like one example. There's a million examples of toxic situations, some way worse than that, that people deal with when it comes to discrimination or sexual harassment or what have you. So that's one area. Those things kind of tie together. And in that case, it was really hard for me to be empathetic, but I also— it was important for me to be graceful for that situation. To evolve. And in the toxic work environment, I worked in an environment, I wouldn't say it was toxic, but I hated it. And I remember a mentor telling me that sometimes we work places to learn what not to do. Just observe, get through it as long, vest.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Right? If anyone's old enough to know what I'm talking about. Vest and get out of there. But the more complex ones are the self-energy and the imposter syndrome. Mm-hmm. And so for me, you know, self-energy, so ego is very much like, like you said, how do you figure out how to advocate for yourself while looking out for other people? And the term self-energy, what it really means is you are operating out of a place of integration as a human. Body, mind, spirit, soul, whatever your belief system is, all connected. And you're always looking to make things better for those around you. And by the nature of making decisions that way or leading that way or acting that way, you are advocating for yourself and you're showing people that you can be trusted. I always say, never trust anyone that doesn't say, I don't know, I'm sorry, I was wrong. That's where you fall into the narcissist category. Yeah. You know, so it's something to think about. Like if you're struggling with something, are you struggling because it's not what you wanted or it's not what the best thing for the company was? And if it's not the best thing for the company, what's the data behind that? And then how can you find your voice, which we'll talk about a little bit later, to raise those things. And you already pointed out imposter syndrome. There are upsides to that because we are often humble. Like I said, I'm sitting here right now, like, why am I talking about this on here? What do I know? Like kind of you're saying with the podcast, my, my best, one of my best friends, Mark Bagley, and I often talk about brain weasels. We call brain weasels, you know, the anxiety that comes in that distracts us and you just have to. Remember that you're there for a reason and you probably would have been found out already. Now, I know there are a lot of people that fail up, but, you know, you're— if you're sitting there worrying that you're one of those people, you're probably not one of those people. Just like my therapist always tells me, no narcissist worries that they're a narcissist, right?

Right. It's that lack of self-awareness.

No, you're just vain. You're not a narcissist. I'm like, okay, cool. But it's things that's kind of high level because of the time we have. But I think the self-energy and really being able to tune into how can I bring my best self forward to be a better leader, to be a better advocate, to be a better partner, to be a better parent, to be a better friend, in my case, to be a better cat mom. You know, kind of thing. And, you know, that's going to help with all of these situations because it's going to ground you into who you are and, and give you a little bit of armor against other things that could affect you. And there's so many things other than these four, but these are the things that I'm most experienced in.

Yeah, well, it's a good point. You know, the ego and the self-energy one, like, I I think that's something, and I don't know, I'll get your thoughts on this 'cause I'm curious what you think, but my observations and my own lived experience, at least I didn't get there until I was older. But part of that was because you gained, I gained confidence in my career. I gained experience. I gained, listen, I gained some financial flexibility to allow me to, you know, what I've learned over time, at least in my experience, is the more I worry about others, the better things seem to work out. Frankly, you know, I don't, And again, like you said, don't let people trample all over you. You know, my interests matter, of course. But the more I look at, hey, what's best for everybody? How am I going to— how does— how do I help contribute to a winning situation for as many people as possible? It just seems like it works out really well. And, you know, you build better, better networks and better reputations and you get better results. But it's really hard when you're young and you're breaking in because you also are trying to make a name for yourself, right? So there's a point when you go, hey, listen, I've already made my name. I'm good. People know who I am, for better or worse. And I've got a few dollars in the bank. God forbid if nobody gives me credit for this one project, it's fine. I'll live, right? And that's why I want less and less credit as I go along. Do you have any thoughts on as you're coming up, like, is this something that gets easier as we get older? Because, because we have the experience and we have, and we get, you know, wiser, smarter, whatever it is, or, or also just have that financial flexibility and we've already built a reputation, or is it something we just don't realize we could do right from the very start? And most of us just don't figure this out until, you know, we got, we got a few years under our belt.

You know, I'm going to, I'm going to answer that two ways. And the second one, just because I didn't touch on it before, but it ties into this answer. The first is, you know, you know, everybody's story is different. I spent a lot of time in my career, but I've gone through layoffs. I've had some wins. I've had some losses. I'm definitely not in the financial shape that I was a couple years ago. So things can change significantly. So I do worry about certain things more than I used to. At times. I'm not in a bad situation by any means, you know, so it's, it's not like poor, poor, poor Jen over here, but it's like things like that can ebb and flow for some people.

Sure.

It helps that again, I just have two spoiled cats to worry about. I have a former— well, he's still my stepchild. He's 30, so he's pretty self-sufficient.

But it's not a lot of cat college tuition to save up for. You're good there.

No, I don't worry about that. He just gets himself For a pair of balls, that'll, that'll be for that. But be, you know, I think when you're younger and starting in your career, you know, it's harder when you don't get credit for the work that you've done and not to react to that. But I do think that if you can ground yourself in self-energy to address those situations, to use your voice in a way that's like, instead of being like, wait a second, I did that. That was my idea. Or we've all been in a meeting where somebody rest says, I— you say recommendation and somebody else says it 10 minutes later and it's a brilliant idea. And it usually happens to women.

I was just saying, it's usually the woman has an idea and 10 minutes later some guy has basically the same idea.

Yeah. You know, but instead of being like, wait a second, that was my idea, or going behind them.

Yeah.

Which is just gossip, which is just bad. You can just say, you know what? I think that's a great idea. I'd love to help with that. And reinsert yourself into that conversation. If it's a situation where you didn't have credit for it, you could potentially have a one-to-one conversation, a heart-to-heart with the person that took the credit and just say, hey, is there any way that we can share this project? But then because you're thinking, because I want to do what's best for the company and what this is going to grow for both of us, for all of us, show them the win and sharing that with you. So it still comes back to that. Now they could be a jerk, they could be a narcissist like we talked about. It may not always work. But it also, you know, everybody has a different appetite for what they're willing to advocate for. Like for me, sometimes I'm very, very bold and very, very outspoken and very fearless. And it's usually in protection of other people. Like you go after my team, you come after me, it's like mama bear. But if someone comes after me, I take it harder because of that personal trauma. Like for me, I spent my whole childhood and my adult life still being told that I'm worthless, that I'm not lovable, that I'll never amount to anything, to that, that I— so when I have the imposter syndrome, when I have the doubt, it's that voice, it's that mom voice in my head constantly. So whether you're 50, 51 in a few days, so I'm doing this to celebrate my birthday, and, you know, or, you know, in your 20s, there's something that you've dealt with, even if you had the perfect parents, perfect family, something in school, something— your own challenge, something you might be dealing with, your own mental health, you never know. That could be that voice in your head. So I say embrace that voice in a way and try to— don't fight it because what's that quote? Like, the more you resist, it persists, or what have you. Try to embrace it and use the power of that and to being graceful and advocating.

Mm-hmm. Well, that's a really good point. I like that.

That's how I live, but I, it's hard to talk about because of all the reasons I just said.

Well, exactly. But it's a good point. Like I think, and you know, I wish I was, this sounds so cliché, but I, I wish I was as comfortable and confident as opposed to cocky when I was younger as I, as I am today, frankly, in that, you know, I, I have learned that the more I lean into just who I am, the good and the bad, you know, you kind of work on the bad, but be honest about it, be direct. The more I've just leaned in and said, you know, the better it's gotten for me, the easier it's been, the more authentic I've been. That's, you know, it's become my brand sort of for, for quite a while now. And that's because, you know, that's who I am, right? But the more authentic I've become, the better things have become for me, right? So, and, and I wish I'd been able to do that when I was younger. It took me a long time to, to figure that out, unfortunately.

Yeah. Thank you.

And, you know, now that I have, it's, it's gotten much easier for me. But, but it's interesting, you know, by the way, before we jump, I do wanna get into another question, but Just a quick note, if you're one of the jerks in the room when a woman has a good idea and you take it from them, you're a terrible human being and you shouldn't have a job in my opinion. And if you're one of the people in the room that doesn't stand up for the woman in that room when that happens, you're just as bad. All right. It's this shit's just gotta stop. Like I've been doing this a long time. I have a history of this. Anybody who's worked with me knows I've definitely called people out on this. I've been in rooms where it's happened. I've watched it happen live and I've stopped and gone, hold on a second. It was her idea. Like, why are we acting like that didn't happen? It's up to men to help fix that problem. All right? We cannot say, well, women need to stand up for themselves. And that's great. Everybody should. You gotta advocate for other people. Stop letting people be jerks in the room around you. Just stop letting that shit happen. All right? So if you're one of those people in a privileged position and you watch that and don't do anything about it, please don't ever try to work with me or cross paths with me because I will absolutely bury you on that shit. It just is intolerable. Well, it should be intolerable. I, I can't have anything to do with it.

So, Yeah, anyone can chime in on that. And it's not, you know, it's not just women, it's minorities. It's, it's those in any type of disenfranchised or situation that where they're made to feel small for whatever reason, even though they shouldn't be. Like, mention the transgender community or the, you know, the LGBTQIA+— gosh, I'm part of that. I'm part of a few communities. So I like, you know, the— even though I can't say it like, you you don't, you know, speak up for whomever you are. It could just be someone that hasn't found their voice yet. Could be a man that just— could be— doesn't— he was young in their career or just lost, you know, something or someone, or you just lost their job and just got a new one and is afraid to speak up, like advocate. So I'm with you on that. I do agree that the crimes against women— and sometimes women on women crime is the word— is kind of bad, but that's a whole other conversation. I will say in that board meeting situation that I was in, of the 20-ish people that were there, there was one other woman that was there and she was the only one that attempted to do something mostly more by flagging other people for attention because she was kind of there as the admin and she couldn't really speak up. Unfortunately, she should have been able to, but that wasn't my rule. All these guys in blue button-down shirts just kind of sat there and watched me to see what my reaction would be. And, you know, that was scary.

Yeah. Yeah. It's— I mean, that's a, that's a bad toxic culture all around. You know, I get it. People get paralyzed by that and they've, they've probably learned if you speak to that, speak up to that particular leader, things go very poorly for them. So it's gone to self-preservation. I just don't have a great deal of respect for that. At some point you step up and if it— if you take a bullet, you take a bullet. And you know what? If it's that toxic a place, go find something else to do with your time. I realize it's easy to say, especially in tough markets, but, but I just, I, you can't, those places can't survive like that. They should not be allowed to. People shouldn't, shouldn't be allowed to be treated that way. Those environments are toxic and, and painful. And I'm, I'm thankful not to be in one and hopefully never have to, to return to one. But I assure you, if anybody ever hires me, you should know I'm the guy that'll step up and be difficult in those meetings if, if you run into people like that. So if you ever wanna work with me in the future, anybody listening, the 12 people that listen to the show, make sure that you, you know that. But listen, I wanna touch on something, you know, more positively, right? So you had mentioned, you kind of leaned into this a little bit, talking about some of the positives that come along with all these challenges, right? We talked about how difficult this is, and I won't say negatives, but we've been honest about how hard a lot of these things are. But what are some of the positives that we can take away from some of these challenges? How do we turn them to our advantage? I mean, you already talked a little bit about some of this. You talked about the humility that comes with, you know, uh, self-doubt, right? With, with having imposter syndrome, for instance. So what other challenges do we get to turn to our advantage? What can we do with some of these things?

Oh gosh, there's so much. You know, I'm a big fan of affirmations and meditation. That's not for everyone. It used to not be for me. But, you know, I meditate every day, whether it's in the shower, whether it is in a meditative pose, whether it's a subliminal as I go to sleep. Sometimes it's like certain frequency music that helps elevate you to a certain like vibration that like gets your energy up. I'm a big fan of I am affirmations. And if you Google I am affirmations, there's apps for it, there's Instagram, there's like tools for it. They're probably the whole category in like Calm or Headspace if you use any of those. I use an app called SleepTime that I love. And it's like, and there are different areas that of I am, whether it's like I am a good partner or I am strong or I can I can combat this illness, or I am worthy of being on AJ Nash's podcast, or I am worthy of the job I have, or I am not what my mother says I am. I am not this jerk that I used to be when I was younger and things like that. And even putting little sticky notes on mirrors until you get into the habit. And that's what I used to do. My bathroom mirror would cover. People would come over and be like, what the fuck is going on here? Until you make, until it becomes a habit, really do help. And it sounds so simple, but there's a trick to that too, which is a lot of people have trouble looking themselves in the eye in the mirror. Very known fact. And—

Oh yeah, I do. I have a terrible time with it.

And I practiced doing that as weird as I felt, like looking at myself. I'm looking at the camera now, but like people watching this are going, oh, this is fun. But looking myself in the eye so I could believe myself. So it was like it was coming from someone else. And so I support myself because we all have like inner children and other parts, and there's a whole other thing there. So that really helps, and that's a positive that can come out of it. And then you can also use some of those things that you learn, those processes, to coach other people, which I think we all have a duty to do as we get older in our career, whether it's through a podcast and we bring on people to help reach and help others, or one-to-one mentoring or what have you. There's no shame in seeking professional help. I have what I call a mental health army. I have a shrink, I have a therapist, I have a sober life coach because I'm 32 months sober. I had to get sober because—

That's awesome. Congratulations.

Thank you. I joke now that I think maybe I had more of a numbing problem because I was basically pouring kerosene on all the trauma that I had. At this point, I have so much clarity. I don't want to risk that, but I don't need to. Never say never, but at least right now in my life, I'm good. But there's no harm in asking for help from, like, a clinician or someone that's trained in a certain area to help you. Even holistic healing way, things like Reiki, chakra balancing, sens— I love sensory deprivation, 2 hours float tank. Nothing but darkness and quiet. It's the best thing for me.

How do you not just fall asleep?

Huh?

How do you not just fall asleep?

I get into a very meditative state.

Oh, and I feel like I just pass out. I mean, I have to try it maybe, but I feel like I would just pass out.

I've fallen asleep before, but largely, like, I just get into a very meditative state and I'm very just awake, like, at the movement, and it's, it's, it's great. And the other thing is something that I've started talking about and helping friends with recently that I want to broaden and provide to more people. So I'm starting to build it almost like a little bit for free workbook is like a Google template just to give to people is a courage plan, which is essentially like, what is hurting you? What is holding you back? Whether it's in your personal life or your professional life. Why? How is your ego maybe getting in the way? How can you maybe leverage self-energy to get there? What mentors can you call on for help that would be willing to help you? What's the worst thing that happens if this doesn't happen? What's the best thing that could happen that does? And then you get it all on paper and it suddenly feels tangible. And there's no timeline for it. You break it off in small chunks. And there are some things that heal and there's some things that don't, but it helps you build a toolbox for the things that don't heal.

Mm-hmm.

And it helps you heal the things that you can heal. And that's what I found. And it wasn't called a Courage Plan. It just, I pieced together so many different resources that I've used over the last few years or so as I've worked on myself to get to that. And I found that using that and also sharing it with others that use it has helped them. So, you know, watch this space. I'll share it on LinkedIn wherever I can whenever it's finished as an open Google Doc for people to copy if it helps them.

Oh, Meg, it's great. I think it, it almost certainly will. I'll be interested in it. I can say that. I can't speak for everyone, but it'll almost certainly help people because again, we talk about this, this is, I won't say universal, but it's pretty close, right? There's, I don't know anybody who's not going through something. You know, you pointed that out. I, I think, you know, harking back to something you'd said earlier is, you know, you don't know what somebody else is going through. Right. And, you know, it took me again a long time to get to a point where I was able to recognize, like, if somebody loses their shit in the middle of the day, you know, I generally, not always, but I've been known to be able to take a moment and go, okay, why, why is this happening? Like, sometimes I don't, depends on what they say to me and how they are. I mean, there are certain things I don't tolerate and I'll figure it out later, but most cases I'm able to go, okay, what's really going on? Cuz this is, a massive overreaction to whatever the thing is, right? And it's like, so it probably isn't about this. And maybe I don't know the answer, but at least I can try to have some empathy and say something else is happening. Now, whether I want to address that, and I've been known to say, hey, listen, you know, what's going on? You know, it depends on the relationship I have with the person to say, this doesn't seem like a reaction that fits what's happening here. So do you want to talk about something else? Is something going on? A lot of risks go with that, you know, depending on who you're dealing with, you know, I can make things worse, not better. So you gotta tiptoe on that. But, but I have tried to gather that because you don't know what other people are going through. And I don't care how great somebody's life is. I don't care how successful they look or how beautiful you think they they are or how rich they are or how popular they are. And certainly don't judge anybody based on what social media is, cuz nobody's putting their worst stuff on social media. You know, people are going through stuff. And that isn't to say it's, oh, life's really hard for the billionaires. Listen, I don't have a lot of sympathy for billionaires. I'm sure you can figure out your own problems, but it doesn't mean there's nothing happening. Right. And so, you know, I think, I think it's interesting when you talk about that and be able to go through that and have that empathy and say, you know, everybody's got something. Let's talk about, about where it is. But, but then, you know, here, as you talk about the positives that come with whatever we are going through, you know, the, the ability to, to stay humble and, and to stay hungry and to continue to learn and to have empathy for others, right? Because we're going through things they're going through perhaps. And to be able to see that and say, oh, I've acted that way before. I've reacted like that. I'm not gonna assume this is what they're going through, but I am going to, I hate the word assume, I guess in this case, but it's, it's very likely something is happening, right? And maybe I can help them and, and maybe we can find common ground. And you can't always, cuz some people are just toxic and, They got their own things to work on. And as you said, you put a lot of work in this. You have an army of mental health professionals. Some people don't and some people need one. And if they don't, I can't make them get that. I can't step in and be that help. Maybe I'm not the person they even want for that. But sometimes you can, right? Sometimes you can recognize things and say, hey, what's going on? How can we talk about that? And we'll get back to the, whatever the thing is that I made you upset about and we'll see if we can solve that part later. But I think it's interesting that to me and some of the stuff you mentioned here, That's some of the positives that come outta this cuz we all have these life experiences. So how do we, how do we turn them to our advantage? They're not gonna go away. You can't just bury your trauma. I mean, you can, but it doesn't work well from what I understand. It's all gonna show up eventually.

Yeah.

And you know, imposter syndrome is a tough one, but you know, you gotta make it a friend to a point, kind of work with it. And I, I love the, the I am statements you were talking about. So as full disclosure, I do this a lot. As you were talking, I was like, oh, what is that? I started Googling it and I've got a website here with 150 of 'em now that I was looking through. I was like, oh man, I should start doing this because I don't, I'm terrible at this. I don't spend a lot of time talking about things that I may or may not be good at, right? I've worked really hard to avoid being a narcissist. I was such a cocky guy as a young guy and it's not appreciated. People don't like cocky. And so I've worked most of my adult life to try to be the opposite, but I've reached a point where I don't take credit for things, I guess, even to myself, right? So I think it's interesting and I'm going to look at some of these things and I hope others do too. Because there are some opportunities to sit down and go, okay, how about some things that don't make you narcissist? I am this, like, I am good at some, you know, basic things, or I am grateful was in here, you know, was one of these things. Yeah. I am grateful.

Always being grateful is helpful too. Yeah.

You know, I, yeah, I am accepting of who I am. I am building my future. You know, it, there's a lot of these in there. I am an amazing person. I'm proud of putting that one on my mirror personally. I don't know if I, I qualify. Others can make those decisions, but I, I think it's a great thing and I think it's, it's great to hear that this is, you know, a tool. That you use, and, and I can see some value for a lot of us who just don't spend enough time on that. It's, I spend most of my time looking at things I did wrong. You know, my, my week, my calendar, whatever it is, it's all things I didn't do. Oh, you know, I probably had a list of 12 things. I got 1 done on that list. I did 28 other things that weren't on the list cuz I'm ADD and that's how shit works in my world. But I don't take credit for those things. I don't remember that I was productive. It's all the stuff I didn't do, right? You know, come back from a big conference and it's all the meetings you didn't have. Well, I had like 4 hours free for the whole week. Well, there's all the things you didn't accomplish, right? It's. And I know I'm not alone. I think that's a tough part in our industry because we're all moving so fast. So it's good to hear that there's positives that come out of these challenges if we can lean into them a little bit. So you talked about the Courage Plan, and I want to dig into that one a little bit further. Oh, go ahead. It looks like you have something else you want to touch on.

I'm making a mental list of all the things that you just went through that I really want to touch on real fast. And one is no one who's a narcissist works hard at not being a narcissist. Maybe you were cocky, maybe your ego is driving I definitely fell into that for a while, but you know, there's no narcissistic personality disorder, not a clinician going on there.

No, I've had a clinician tell me that as well. It's okay, I've asked the questions. There's some narcissism, but I'm definitely not a narcissist according to professionals. Yeah, I've gone down that path.

You have to learn behavior if you've been surrounded by folks like that, or if you have to survive in that environment, like you just learn behavior. My mom has borderline personality disorder. I do not have it. But I learned how to— I raged when I was younger because that's the only way I knew how to deal with my emotions.

Yeah, me too.

But just touching on that, I'm fortunate that I have the resources to have a mental health army. Not everybody does. And one of the things and one of the reasons I work part-time now is I'm trying to build an NGO to where I can do this kind of work with a board of actual clinicians for people that don't have the resources, especially in underprivileged or disenfranchised or whatever term you want to use groups.

Yep.

So they at least can, I call it spirit of catharsis where they can find ways to let out their anger or figure out their own intuition or figure out how to feel better about themselves. And so I'm hoping that becomes a real thing. But currently the NGO approval is tied up in our current government structure.

Sure.

So I'll just leave it at that. But I do volunteer work on that and I try to speak about it as much as I can. And then the other thing that you were, you were talking about in, in terms of you know, people, and it's not always safe to be like, what's going on there? But I think it— the other benefit of operating from self-energy is that you become very aware of other people's patterns. And also, a lot of people that have come from trauma or dealt with trauma pattern match anyway, or people in certain areas on the spectrum, they pattern match anyway, right? So you'll know if this is really unique behavior for someone that's normally very nice versus someone that kind of a bully, then you might finally be like, all right, I'm just going to get away from this person. And I think emotional regulation, I think people don't fully understand that. They think that emotional regulation means that they just have to be a robot. And it really means having a commensurate reaction to what is going on. So if, you know, recently gave this example during a talk, if I pointed out a guy in the audience that I didn't know, and I'm like, if this guy yells, "You're an idiot," I'm like, "Please don't, I'm fragile," you know? And then if people laughed, and it was meant to, if I went behind the curtain and cried after my talk, that would be commensurate.

If I jumped off the stage and drop kicked him, that would be more entertaining.

Not being emotional, that would not be emotional regulation. That would way too, way too much. So I think, like, looking to see if are people having a reaction that's, like, makes sense in comparison to what's going on in that situation and engaging how to interact with them from there. So sorry to interrupt. I just—

No, you're good.

All this stuff, and I'm just like, yes, I want to share more if it helps people that they may not think about or know or that I didn't understand until you know, even a year, year and a half ago as I went through my learning journey.

Mm-hmm. No, I think it's good. I mean, that's the point of this conversation. There's no specific order and I'm, I'm glad you jumped in cuz those things are important. You know, I, I mean, I was diagnosed late in life with ADD, so, you know, and so I've been on Adderall for several years now and I didn't know, you know, it's interesting, you find out, you might, the stereotypes of ADD are, you know, can't focus and all these kind of things. And, and what I didn't know was things like impulse control. Listen, I've had to, temper for a good chunk of my life, or more importantly, just a really sharp tongue, you know, and, and I have a decent vocabulary and a decent sense of humor, but also can be kind of a mean sense of humor sometimes. And I'm a bit of a sucker for laughter. So if you say something about somebody and people chuckle, then I'm like, oh, this is, this is good. So I might do it 2 or 3 more times, not realizing of course that I'm hurting that person. You know, for years I didn't, I did this stuff because I wasn't able to stop and assess and recognize everything going on. It turns out there was a chemical reason for this. By the way, I've apologized to more people than I can count. Chemical aside, you know, I feel terrible about some of the things I've said and done in the past, but I became a better person. So, you know, when people talk about some of these meds, listen, I didn't suddenly— everything doesn't get done in my life now. I'm still a mess. Meds aren't magic, but they sure do allow me to this regulation you talk about. You know, I don't have the overreactions I've had before. I tend to be a little more thoughtful with my words. As a result, I think people tend to like me a little bit more. You know, there's a balance there, but it's a challenge, right? And so there's another thing. Nobody knew I was going through this, including myself, and nobody deserved any of the horrible shit I may have said to them. So I'm not trying to make excuses for it, right? But I didn't know I was going through it either. And so finally it, it was triggered ironically because of something I read on LinkedIn. Somebody I was following who said they had just been recently diagnosed as an adult and they laid out all their symptoms. There were so many things I didn't know were tied to this. I was like, this sounds like me. I should get checked out. And so you, you were always learning, right? We're always learning who we are and trying to become more aware. More self-aware and therefore more aware of our surroundings and the ability to take that moment, as you said, to, you know, if you can regulate, which in my case needed a little, you know, pharmacology to help, it changes everything, right? I'm very unlikely to just blow up on somebody, whereas I was likely to do it in the past. That doesn't mean I don't have, you know, a sharp tongue still and, you know, don't have some issues with temper occasionally, but it's considerably less. I'd say it's regulated now and it just changes Everything, right? When you, when you're able to do that, and if you're not able to do that and you recognize you're not able to do it, you know, hopefully you can get some help. And if you don't recognize it, maybe others can help you recognize it. Cuz those are people that are miserable people to, to spend time with. But if you work with somebody who's like that, it's also, there may be a reason for it. Not that we have to tolerate it, but you know, it helps to understand some of these things. Now you mentioned the courage plan and I wanna dig into that one a little bit here.

Sure.

And learn more about it. Cause I think it's really interesting. Right. So how do we build a resilient mindset that goes with this courage plan? I know you talked about some of this already, but I wanna dig a little deeper into it for, for the audience. And, and, you know, in the show notes we'll be able to share some details. You, you mentioned you're gonna have a, a document that'll be available publicly and we can share that out too. But I wanna learn more about what you think about building that resilient mindset to go along with the Courage Plan.

I really think, you know, it, and again, I speak from my own experience more than, and, and the different resources that I've used. And I'm still using as I hit different hurdles. 'Cause as you grow, you change and then you run into a hurdle that might've been something you've dealt with before differently and you're like, well, how do I deal with it as this new person? And I'm going through that now with something where I'm like, oh my gosh, how do I, how would've, I don't wanna handle this like I would've handled it 5 years ago. Now how do I handle that? So I think, you know, in addition, I think I, I can't push affirmations meditation, time alone, you know, spend time in nature, things like that. It sounds so cheesy and witchy woo woo.

And that's my friend's calling me, but witchy woo woo.

You know, it's, I think it's, it's really a lot of positive self-talk and combating the negative talk in your head. And even if you can't do that constantly, like when you're like at work or you are in a tough situation with you know, your partner, your new dating situation where you're, you're not, you want to be yourself, but you know, there's not the right time to say what you're fully thinking yet. You're saving that surprise for later kind of thing. You know, I think that there's something in writing stuff down about like how, how this made me feel and, and how I wanted it to make me feel and what I wanted to say and I guess journaling, for lack of a better term. And that all leads to getting more strength to go into this courage plan. But I think there's nothing beats fierce self-honesty. And that means shooing away the voices in your head, whether it's mean board member I was talking about, or my mom, or boyfriends or girlfriends of my past, or whomever that have said things to me. Some of which were true. I've definitely done my fair share of apologizing, especially after I got sober. But really just being honest with yourself, like, back to I am. I am not that person anymore. I am not. I am someone that leads with kindness. I am someone that is grateful for what I have, even if I am working toward achieving more, you know, and I, you know, I think it really, it sounds really simple. It's easy to talk about. It's hard to do. So that's why it sounds like I'm repeating some things, but they dig deep. They dig deep and you get surprised at how deep you have to dig and all the things that come back of things that come, happen to you and things that you did to other people that you've gotta then figure out. And then you figure out what's your best healing modality. Is that the courage plan, I think, you know, remembering that, you know, it's still a really cheesy quote, Rome wasn't built in a day, which is actually true.

Um, sure.

Believe, uh, I wasn't there, so, you know, could be fake news. I don't know.

I think it's reasonable to think Rome probably was not built in a day.

Yeah, Rome was not built in a day. Bite off things in small chunks. And what I advise is, as you go through this plan, I imagine, as I kind of structured it very fast and loose that I've done for friends, and I want to make it more formalized before I share it further, is start with the things that scare you the most, because then everything gets easier after that.

Sure. I mean, that's the whole concept.

You are my facing those things down first. So if I were to do one now on You know, I'll give an example. I'll give an actual real-time recent example. So, you know, I live in Connecticut now. I lived in Manhattan for 6 years prior to that and 20 years in SF before that. And I moved to Connecticut in early winter, February of last year for a relationship that I ended during my move. I'd already given up my apartment in New York.. And, but I realized it wasn't the right thing. It wasn't. I was already, I bought a car cuz I didn't need one in San Francisco and New York.

Sure.

Even the year I spent Austin didn't really need one cuz I was downtown. You know, so it, it was done. I was moving to Connecticut and I knew no one other than my friends that lived here half time, which is how I met Max because they set me up, which they will never forgive themselves for. But yeah. And. I could have been like, the easy path here is to just stay in the relationship so I know people and I have this built-in system, but I would have been fraudulent to myself and really not fair to the, the relationship or any of the people involved. There were kids involved, there were other people involved, and to not break away from that. So one of my biggest fears is dating. I am always convinced that people think I'm ugly and stupid and wouldn't make a good partner and this and that. Again, Mom, hi, you know, and she's not a terrible person. She has a disease and I do love her even though I don't like her sometimes. There's a reason I live 3,000 miles away. And so, you know, and she will never watch this because she still thinks I do what I did for a living when I was 19.

So I can appreciate that.

So, you know, so I sit down with my courage plan and I'm like, okay, where's my ego getting in the way? Where's my fear getting in the way? What do I really want? What do I really want? What kind of relationship do I really want? Who can help me? So I set on this course. I did all that. I wrote down like who could help me. Like what's the worst thing that happens? What's the best thing that happens? And I ended up really just rooted in gratitude. Like, okay, the worst thing that happens is I have the life I have now with my friends and my cats and my house and my job and the industry, then the community that I, I shouldn't say the industry, the community that I've found in the industry.

Mm-hmm.

And so I set on that course and lo and behold, I immediately met someone.

Huh. Funny how that works.

It's new and it's different than something I've experienced. But if I hadn't followed that courage plan, if I hadn't taken the advice of the person that I went to to get guidance on how to be more vulnerable and how to let my guard down and get rid of my mom's voice and all these different things and share out that, like, yeah, I have a tough exterior and people think I'm tough as nails, but I'm really just a squish. It's a shield because of everything I've been through. It's a look, not who I am, I would not have ended up meeting this person. Now, who knows what will happen from there, you know? Could be a thing long term. It could be— I think it goes to tomorrow. I don't think so, but you never know, right? But that's—

but the opportunity wouldn't even be there.

Honest, I never talk about my personal life, even on like X or Blue Sky or anything. I never talk about it. I'm always very like ambiguous about my romantic situation or my status. And I've been single most of my life. I've been in relationships, some relationships, but I've been single most of my life because of those fears. And I'm like, no, I'm 50 years old enough and I know how to give love now. So let's do this.

Yeah.

And so that's good. That's a practical application in my personal life, which that worked. And even if this thing with this gentleman does not work out, at least I've built some muscle and I've realized this will not destroy me and I'll give it another try. Whereas I would have sat back for a year and waited until I was 900 and then write it again, right? So, right.

Well, if nothing else, it's— you're—

but I think people can relate to vulnerability, so I'm hoping it helps.

Oh, I absolutely think so. I mean, it's, it's about opening up the opportunity, right? Like you said, nobody knows what the future holds. Listen, I'm in a relationship as well, and You know, it's, it's, I'm very, very happy. Nobody knows what the future holds. You know, we've, we've all been down these paths. We've all had relationships, right? But, but the key piece to me and what you're saying is without this, you wouldn't have even been open for the opportunity. You know, if, if a relationship lasts, you know, 2 days, 2 months, 2 years, you know, decades, a lifetime, and it's healthy, at least for a portion of it, however long it is, it's an experience. Like there's something good from it. Every relationship isn't meant to last forever and, and it doesn't mean it's a failure necessarily., but until you're in that position, until you have that courage you're talking about to open the door, the opportunity's not there. Like right now you're, you're, it's good, you know, and, and for however long it's good, it is. And if it's ever, that's great. And if it's not, it's still like, hey, I love these experiences. I wouldn't have had these opportunities if I hadn't been able to, to open up, you know, to give myself that chance right now. You know, I don't talk too much about my personal life either. Well, a little, but not my relationships usually. But you and I are kind of the opposite in this way. I'm also, for those who don't know, I'm 51. And I've been single from 20, from the age of 22 maybe until now. I think I've been single a total of like 6 months. Yeah. It's, I, I got married.

I'm the very opposite.

Yeah. I got, I got married and I was married for, for quite a long time. And then when that relationship ended, I was single for a very short period of time and then I was in another relationship. Both those relationships were 12+ years long. And then unfortunately my, my last partner passed away, which a lot of people who know me know that it was kind of a public thing. And then not long after I met my, my current partner, and we've been together a couple years now. So it's a very opposite situation. But even in that situation, it's hard. You know, you leave a long-term relationship and it's, what am I gonna do? And there's that moment of, oh my God, nobody's ever gonna wanna be with me. And this is it. I'm gonna be alone forever. And then, you know, but being able to get past that and say, okay, listen, people like me sort of, I have some things to offer. Like, let's just find out. Let's get out there. Let's, let's have that courage. Let's do that thing and, you know, open the opportunity and see what happens. And I'm thankful, you know, if I had not, I'd be alone and I'd be less happy, undoubtedly. But as you said, also, it's being able to take that moment and go, okay, what's the worst that can happen? Like, you know what? I got a decent life. If I hadn't met another person, hey, me, the dog, the house, the work, you know, the hobbies, et cetera, I'd have been okay. You know, it's not a bad existence. There's a harder world out there, but it's still nice to be able to go, hey, I'd like these things, you know, and be able to say, what do I want in a relationship? What do I deserve in a relationship? What won't I tolerate in a relationship? And then open the door and say, you know, this is who I am. And, and you get to an age where, you know, it also gets easier to just go, this is who I am. Listen, I don't have to hide it. I think it's, you know, it's funny. Obviously you're right. Obviously on the first date, very few people unpack all of their luggage on the table and go, here's everything. Like, it's, it's a good way not to get a second date, I imagine. But to be honest, I'm closer to that person than I, I care to admit. I tend to be somebody who's like, let's just do it all here. I wanna talk about religion and politics and, and, and sex, all the things. Let's just do it on the first date. Let's get it outta the way. I don't care. I'm, I, I don't have time. Neither do you. We're all gonna die. Let's, let's do this as quickly as possible. I don't recommend that if you're 20-something, by the way, but there's an age at which people kind of expect it almost like, yeah, let's just get it out there. If you're, if we're very different and opposite in core beliefs, let's just not waste each other's time on this. But I think the courage that you talk about is, is really important and it's, it's important in, in business. It's important in our personal life. Just being able to, to, to say, hey, I'm gonna, I'm gonna make myself vulnerable. I'm gonna accept that things might not go well., but I'm okay. You know, I've got a grounding in who I am and what I believe in and what I've accomplished and what I continue to accomplish. And it'll be okay, you know? And so I'm looking forward to seeing the rest as you, I know you're working to formalize this, but I'm looking forward to see it when it comes out. I'll certainly check it out and share it with others and, you know, and see what can happen. Cause I think there's a lot more for all of us to learn and to do in this situation to get healthier and happier and, and safer and therefore be the best versions of ourselves. And yeah, it sounds witchy woo-woo. Okay, I don't care. I tend to be that way too. There's a lot of that. Like I said, going from the beginning, organizational leadership was my master's degree, but servant leadership was the foundation of the program. And so I'm very much a believer in take care of others. My personal motto on LinkedIn Family Lux is people first, mission always, integrity throughout. And I'm a big believer in that. Start with people. Just try to figure out how to be a better person, how to give more than you get, how to leave the world a better place, you know, do more good than harm. And yeah, it's risky and it's scary. And a lot of people have said, I can't believe you, you know, you've made this choice and you're gonna get hurt. This person's gonna screw you over, whatever. And I'm like, that's okay. Like, I'll take the risk. The rewards have been a lot better. The people you can help and the lives you can improve. Yeah, you take some knocks along the way, but it starts with courage as you talked about here. So, Listen, I know we're running low on time. We could do this all day and I, and I'd love to, but I also know you're, people don't know this, you're also on vacation, so you took time just to do this and I appreciate it. But I do wanna get us to the wrap-up, right? So the name of the show is Unspoken Security and everybody gets the same last question. You don't get, you don't get an excused absence on this one. And in your case, you say a lot of things, so it'll be very interesting to see what comes up. But you know, with the idea of the name of the show being Unspoken Security, tell me something you've never told anyone before, something unspoken.

It's funny, I've shared way more on the podcast today than I intended to share. So now I'm kind of regrouping a little bit in my mind.

I have a history of that, by the way. I don't know what it is. People like to talk to me and tell me things.

So, well, I think it helps that you're a friendly face that I know. So I feel more comfortable talking when it comes out to, you know, the 12 people, as you said, that listen, you know, I'll get a little more nervous. But the, you know, what is something that, gosh, there's not much that I leave really unsaid. I mean, talking about my personal life is something that I don't really do on a broad scale. But I think I'll share, like, you know, for people that have known me or are just getting to know me, and a lot of times people, I don't talk about this, it kind of makes me sad that people think that, I get really sad that people think that I'm standoffish and hard to approach or tough or this or that. And I can be, you know, but I'm really not. And a lot of that comes from going back to what we talked about, the trauma. I've been diagnosed with complex PTSD and it's not in the DSM yet, but if you're familiar with that, it's, it's, there's PTSD complex means it's sustained trauma over and over again. And I've hinted at some of that. I'm agoraphobic. So I have extreme social anxiety, like getting to, like me getting to RSA, things like that. It takes a lot of mental gymnastics even after all this time. And to, to go do the, the networking and stuff. And obviously being sober has gotten me out of some drinks.

Sure, sure.

But, you know, you know, my best friend Stacy there, she's a cyber psychologist. When I was telling her some of the stuff, she joked that I was a walking DSM manual because I also have disorganized attachment issues. And I, you know, I've, I'm kind of settling in more in an area. I don't think anyone has secure attachment. I think they're unicorns. But the, you know, they have it a People have it in moments, but I guess not to drag this on longer, you know, I, those are the reasons that if someone sees me or, you know, in a work environment or any other environment or a conference or a networking event in the office, and I don't immediately jump up and say hi, or I look down at my computer or I don't make eye contact. It's not because I think I'm better than or I'm a jerk or I'm just this tough goth girl or something. It's because I'm scared because I've been hurt so much. And that's something I don't really say. Yeah, you really, you really got a lot out of me. I thought I was vulnerable in my last talk. Really, really. I'm just going to send this whole thing to my therapist and have them out.

It's therapeutic. Yes.

And I think there are probably a lot of people in our industry for different reasons They probably feel the same.

Yeah.

You know, I do.

I do think so. Well, and you pointed out again, this, this, we don't know what other people are going through, you know, and we project our thought. Like if, if I came in a room and you had your head down, does that mean you don't give a shit that I'm there? Does that mean you think you're better than me? Or does that mean something's going on? Like it's, I think some of the challenges, a lot of us instinctively, I guess we take somebody's reaction to us personally as if it's about us. And in most cases, not all, in most cases it's about them. You know, there's days when I don't look people in the eye as much as other days. Like, I'm notoriously, you know, people will say, oh my God, he's so outgoing and he's, you know, he's an extrovert. I'm not an extrovert. I'm actually an ambivert. I used to be an extrovert. I'm actually an ambivert at this point. I have all sorts of social, I won't say social anxiety, that would probably be untrue, but I have all sorts of insecurities. And it depends on how I feel on a given day and how insecure I am. There are days when I come across as standoffish too. And then people are really concerned because it's that pattern change. Like, this guy's not normally this way. It's not about you. It's not about the room we're in. It's probably cuz I just feel bad that day. My hair looks like shit, or, you know, my skin looks bad, or I feel fat or whatever it is. It's all a me thing. It's almost always a me thing. And, but people don't know it, right? And so, you know, for what it's worth, I, I think you're delightful. For anybody who doesn't know, it's not, it's not like Jen and I go back years and years. It was basically kind of a, an outreach. I didn't find you to be standoffish or difficult at all. You're, you're a sweetheart. So, you know, That also comes, I think, from, for those who don't know, having the courage to reach out to people. You'll also be very surprised at how much people are happy to talk. You know, I tell people, oh, you want to know something? Go talk to the CEO. And they're like, well, I can't reach out to him. Like, why? What's the worst thing that'll happen? He'll blow you off or she'll blow you off. Who cares? But there's a good chance if you say, hey, I'm interested in what you do and I want to learn more, they'll be like, I'd love to talk about myself. People like doing that. And then you learn that it's easier to go over time. But you're delightful. You're not standoffish in my opinion. You're not difficult at all. You're certainly worthy and brilliant and very good in this industry and in life. And like, I've followed your story from afar for a long time because that's how LinkedIn works. You can do that and not be creepy still. But I always thought you were fascinating and interesting and smart and, you know, I wanted to know more and I wanted to have a chance to have you on the show. So I'm glad we did. And also I found out you're a lot braver and stronger than I would've realized. I can't even fathom having agoraphobia and going to any of the conferences. Like, that seems impossible. Like, I can't imagine how exhausting— the conference exhausted me, and I'm not agoraphobic. Like, I'm still pretty outgoing. I can't imagine how exhausting it is if you're managing something like that at the same time, or managing social anxiety, or managing, as you said, complex PTSD. All these things are happening at once. Like, that is a kind of strength and bravery I don't think people are going to understand or appreciate because we just don't experience it that way. So Yeah, you're, you're a hell of a lot cooler and better even in person than I, you know, that I knew. I, I thought you would be, and you're a hell of a lot better probably than you give yourself credit. And if anybody thinks otherwise, you know, including your mother, no offense, and I don't know her, but the hell with her, you know? And we, and we all have some of those voices from somebody. So I, I listen, I think this is, I hope this has been a great show for others. I think it's been great. I've enjoyed the conversation for sure. And I hope we're able to help a lot of folks. And I appreciate you coming on and, and having this discussion. I appreciate you being so vulnerable, right? And so open and honest. That's, that's what we try to accomplish with some of these conversations. I think it will do people a lot of good. Is there anything you want to plug or anything you want to close out with? Any last words, whether it's words of encouragement, whether it's business stuff, you want to try to make a couple bucks at the end of this thing, whatever it might be before we, we say goodbye to everybody.

No, the only thing I would say is if anyone listens to this and wants a little bit more guidance, you know, again, I'm not a clinician, but wants to talk, I will always respond. I will always, help, guide, direct, do what I can. I can't, you know, help any, just feel free, find me on LinkedIn. That's probably the most reliable place where I check messages unless you're trying to sell me something, then I hit the decline without answering. And so, but yeah, I guess I would just say like, don't be, don't be afraid to reach out. I'm, I'm here to share what I learned and I'm also not afraid to say like, I think you should talk to somebody that's more schooled in this than me. If, if I think so.

Yeah. And I appreciate it. And, and, you know, I, I just can't say enough good things about this. Right. And if there's anything I can do to help people out there, obviously you can reach out to me as well. I'm happy to connect you with, with Jenna or people, you know, that are professionals, you know, beyond both of our, our abilities. You know, these things matter. And, and I've, I've said this to people all over and over again, and people have reached out to me randomly who I don't know. But again, if you care about others, if you have that, you know, self-energy you talked about, right? And that, that, that expands beyond just my friends, my family, my work, my coworkers. It's pretty much anybody who You can help, and I know you feel the same way. So thanks again for coming on the show. I really do appreciate it, you know, especially on your time off, all the, all the more. So for everybody who's listening and watching, for all 12 of you out there, you know, please, if you like the show, you know, like it and subscribe and please tell people and share it. If you don't like the show, shut the hell up. It's hard. No, I'm just kidding. If you don't like the show, let me know. Like, I, I'm always looking to try to improve it. The show's not about me, it's about the guests and about the audience. But please spread the word and, and so we can get more great guests like Jen to come on and talk about these important issues that affect all of us. So I'm gonna wrap it up for that, for this episode. So I'm AJ Nash, and this has been another episode of Unspoken Security.

That's a wrap for this episode of Unspoken Security. If you enjoyed this episode, follow us wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts. See you next time.