Unspoken Security Ep 42: Communication Strategies for Data Driven Leaders

You need to focus on what's the positive potential. Start asking questions that lead the mind to start thinking of what's the positive potential in this situation versus allowing your mind to worry about all the things that could go wrong. Takes work, takes effort. And it, just like my coach did for 10 minutes marching around that conference room table, it shifted me enough to go out and actually do my job. The other side is the body itself. If it's negativity bias, if the imposter's coming up, our body is going to close in on itself. It's naturally going to become smaller and comforting. It's just self-comforting.

Welcome to Unspoken Security, the raw and gritty podcast for security professionals who are looking to understand the most important issues related to making the world a safer place, including intelligence-driven security, risks and threats in the digital and physical world. And discussions related to corporate culture, leadership, and how world events impact all of us on and off our keyboards. In each episode, host AJ Nash engages with a range of industry experts to dissect current trends, share practical insights, and address the blunt truths surrounding all aspects of the security industry.

Hello and welcome to another episode of Unspoken Security. I'm your host, AJ Nash. I spent 19 years in the intelligence community, mostly at NSA, and I've been building and maturing intelligence programs in the private sector for about 9 years. I'm passionate about intelligence security, public speaking, mentoring, and teaching. I also have a master's degree in organizational leadership from Gonzaga University. Go Zags! So I continue to be deeply committed to servant leadership. Now, this podcast brings all of these elements together with some incredible guests to have authentic, unfiltered conversations on a wide range of challenging topics. This is not going to be your typical published podcast. My dog certainly has made some appearances. In fact, she's laying next to me today, and she's kind of grumpy. So we'll see how it goes. People argue and debate. They even swear here. Well, at least I do sometimes. And that's all okay. I want you to think of this podcast as a conversation you'd overhear at a bar after a long day at one of the larger cybersecurity conferences. These are the conversations we usually have when nobody's listening. Now today, I'm joined by Salvatore Manzi, a leadership communications coach with over 20 years of experience helping executives, entrepreneurs, and leaders amplify their influence and impact. He's coached leaders presenting at the United Nations. He's guided investors in raising $100 million over their goal. He helped biopharma scientists present their work globally. With an emphasis on frameworks, principles, and techniques, Salvatore empowers leaders to connect authentically and navigate high-stakes conversations with confidence. He's also a proud Jayhawk with a communications degree from the University of Kansas. Salvatore, anything you want to add to that?

Go Jayhawks!

There you go. See, it's funny, everybody gives me a bio and then I do a little tweak to it and then they laugh because they don't— they didn't expect that to happen, right?

They're like, oh no, what do I say?

Racha Jaha to come out right there. Fond memories, fond memories of KU, that's for sure.

A fine school, almost as good a basketball school as Gonzaga.

Uh, yeah, I mean, basketball was invented at KU, but sure, go on, tell me about it.

Yeah, yeah, invented there, perfected out west. It's okay. No, I'm just— oh my God. Well, we don't have a title yet, so I can't really say much about our program. We get close. Anyway, so let's jump in. Like, today's show, the topic today is communication strategies for data-driven leaders. And communication is pretty much the key to almost everything we do in life and our, in our interactions with others, right? It's our, our relationships, whether it's personal, whether it's professional. I know a lot of really good communicators. Obviously, you know, I spend a lot of time on the mic, so I work with people who are. I also know a lot of really lousy communicators, frankly. And sadly, a lot of them end up in leadership positions. But before we dig into it, let's get a baseline. What does a communications coach do? What do you do all day, man?

I, thank you. I work with leaders who want to elevate their communication to make sure that their voice, their vision, their mission is going, that make sure that their team is aligned and collaborating. I like to say that my work sits at the intersection between leadership, collaboration, and communication. I help bring communication strategies to leaders so that they and their team can start making more effective pitches. More influence with key stakeholders, and especially to create more inclusive, high-performing teams, which it requires a little bit of self-awareness and an ability to deliver on whatever they're talking about.

So. Well, and that's interesting. You talk about self-awareness. So I don't want to pick on anybody in particular. Like I said, I've worked with some brilliant leaders and some that could use some work, I suppose. And listen, anybody could say the same about me. I'm also always at work, right? Trying to improve myself. But I'm curious how people react to this, right? I guess first question is, are they bringing you in? If they're inviting you in, they already probably recognize they have a challenge they want to work on versus if you're on stage maybe and trying to tell people how to improve themselves. But how do people react when they're told what they need to improve upon or what their challenges are?

There are two categories here that we're going down. I like that you're surfacing them. The first one is where someone got passed over a promotion. They're tired of leaving meetings with, I wish I had said, or they're tired of just their ideas not getting picked up and moved on. They come to me and they're like, how do I get my voice heard? How do I have more presence in these meetings? The ones that are sent to me that are told that they're not meeting employee standards or they're not getting enough engagement when they're communicating, they have a lot of great ideas, but they're are not seemingly to get them to move forward. Those come to me with a bit of curiosity and a little bit of pushback, right? It's, it's gonna be a bit of both. I, I tend not to work a lot with the, that class anymore. I did for a while when I first started out, I worked for 3 communication training companies and they sent me into a lot of places where the company had told the employee that it was time. But now I run my own company, so I get to choose who I work with.

Well, I imagine that helps quite a bit. It's obviously easier. People who think they're doing a good job don't love being told they're not doing a good job. Usually I think it's harder to coach people who aren't looking to be coached, right? As opposed to somebody who says, hey, I need, I need to improve. I need help in these areas. Right? So I imagine that makes your job a little bit easier now that you're able to pick and choose your own clients. That's people that want you, right?

Yeah. And it's people that have recognized an opportunity, passed them up, or an opportunity is coming up that they don't want to miss. So there's a motivation that's coming from within. Much better. You mentioned public speaking as well. You've done a bit of this. This is— what was your course? What was your trajectory to becoming a public speaker besides the amazing radio voice?

You know, it's a good question. I've always kind of been a performer, I guess, even as a kid. You know, I was in music and theater from a very young age, so I always like to entertain people. I was never somebody who was particularly shy. So, you know, I, I've been told that the two biggest fears people have are dying and public speaking. And actually, people are more afraid of death than public speaking, which means at a funeral, people are more afraid of being up and talking about the dead than they are being in the coffin, which I find fascinating. I don't really have that fear. So it's been something that's come in handy because I've been in a lot of organizations where it's been an issue. In fact, when I was at the agency, you know, jokes about NSA, you know, introverts, NSA is full of introverts. Most agencies are. The old joke is, how can you tell the introvert from the extrovert at NSA? And, you know, introverts walk around staring at their own shoes all day, and the extroverts will walk around staring at other people's shoes. And so I was a unique creature there to a point, and therefore a useful pet, because I worked in a lot of organizations with brilliant people, but their communication skills were challenged. You know, they were great with the data and they were brilliant, but they may not have been confident public speakers or they weren't competent public speakers.. And so I also worked on those teams and I was a pretty good speaker. So that helped. I mean, I, in the agency that helped, obviously before that in the military I was in intelligence and intelligence is communication. I mean, that's what it comes down to. It's how do you communicate? Everything is about language and intelligence. There's very specific language, but how do you communicate effectively and efficiently and confidently? You know, bottom line up front communication. We talk a lot about in, in the government space, BLUF. And so I learned a lot about how to be effective. But I already had the confidence and the comfort, thankfully, you know, growing up where I did and, and, you know, spent some time. I have a family that's all sales, so everybody, everybody's good at talking and a little bit of persuasion if need be. So for me, it came really naturally and it took me a long time to figure out there was even value in it because, you know, I find it so easy to do most of the time that I feel bad when people would say, wow, what a great job. Or I'm like, ah, it's not, it's not that hard, but I guess it is for others. And, you know, I recognize that. The value comes in, in what you accomplish or what you deliver versus what other people can or can't do or what's difficult. And that's true of anything, right? I mean, there are professional athletes who do amazing things and it's just every day for them. And for, for somebody like me, it might as well be magic. So yeah, my path was, was really about, I was always pretty good at communication and comfortable with it. I still had work, don't get me wrong. I had to get better and pick better words and come across less arrogant and cocky as I did when I was younger, you know, and find a way to deliver words that aren't gonna be off-putting even if it's the right answer. You know, even if somebody has a terrible idea, telling them, boy, that's the dumbest idea I've ever heard, it's not really a good way to start that conversation.

No.

So, you know, I had to learn and mature, but I had the confidence going in, which really helped. And then I've taken some training, you know, like anybody. I've done media training a couple of times because I spend a lot of time, you know, publicly. I don't always follow the media training, but at least I take it. I understand the risks and the pitfalls and your concerns about what you say. And then Sometimes I still make mistakes like anybody, I suppose.

Yeah, I love— there's a lot to unpack there. I love the idea of introverts and extroverts, the shoes as a go-to. I identify as an introvert and I wouldn't say that speaking came easy for me. My father was a public speaker and so I was enamored in the glow, the afterglow that he had after he spoke. And I wanted to get up to that level. And yet when I got on the stages, I just felt like I don't really want all these eyes on me and I just feels uncomfortable. And to your point, Somebody said, well, public speaking is the scariest thing a person can do. And I'm like, well, I'm doing that because if I can overcome that fear, then anything's gonna be easy. But it wasn't an easy cake walk for me, you know, especially I judge a lot of communication training, public speaking training is geared towards the extroverts, how to polish that charm and charisma, right? Rather than towards the introverts and the data-driven analytical scientific minds that are like, look, I just wanna tell you the data. And that's it. But there's a, there's a gap, right? Like, I can't just give you the data. I need to make it engaging. I gotta find ways to make it relevant for you. And I need to color pictures so that there's something happening along with that.

So, yeah, you gotta be able to tell a story. I mean, the data can be amazing, but, you know, if you just download the data in a monotone, people aren't gonna consume it, right? You gotta be able to tell the story. You gotta be able to give people, you know, the what and, you know, also the so what and, you know, the what's next is what I always tell people. So, you know, All of that has to come together. It has to be a story attached to it. And that can be difficult for some people who aren't built that way. So, but to be successful there, you have to come up with that.

Most of my clients come to me, they're engineers, they're from the analytical scientific spaces, right? They come to me and they're like, I don't do metaphors. And I'm like, metaphors move minds. Metaphor moves minds. You can tell me all the data you want, but when you drop in a metaphor, analogy, a story, an example, something like that, Oh, I get it. If you're talking engineer to engineer, sure, we don't need a metaphor. We can speak in zeros and ones and we got it. It's great. But if you're trying to influence outside that sphere to the sales or the creative or to whatever other department, metaphors is your key to making them connect with your, like, data and do something with it, actually. So I always make my clients practice one metaphor a day. Pick an object anywhere around you and tell me how your job is like that object. We could try it right now if you're game. Don't pick your—

I'm always game. Let's do it.

Yeah, grab an object close to you. Tell me, how is your job— how, how is your job like that pair of glasses?

Glasses. Pair of glasses. That's a good question. That's my job like a pair of glasses. Well, the point of glasses is to have more clarity, to see things more clearly, to to be able to better understand and to, to be better equipped to consume. And all those things are aspects in my job. You know, my job is whether I'm communicating, whether I'm doing thought leadership or podcasting, or whether I'm doing intelligence work, it's all about trying to help people get clarity and to see things more clearly. And I also have to be able to see things and, and, and, and consume those things, which a lot of it happens to be visual. So without glasses, I would probably be unsuccessful. And, and without intelligence, I think most organizations would be unsuccessful.

Beautiful. That piece is one step of four in my framework. So when I became a public speaker and as an introvert, I created frameworks for different contexts. The HIP framework, which is for impromptu. If you have to speak up in a meeting, if you just need to make a data point, whatever it is, HIP. Headline. You, you said bottom line first, right? Give me the headline first. Then you want to give me the data, your insights. Headline insights. Third is picture. Paint a picture. You got to metaphor. And fourth is point. HIPPP. If you can conquer that in 4 sentences, you can even kind of squish them together. You can make a salient point that lands with anybody in the room, no matter what your data is.

That's, that's pretty powerful. And, you know, you mentioned storytelling and, and I, I gotta be honest. I, I hadn't thought much about it, but I probably owe my dad a lot. For, for how I ended up in terms of public speaking. My father was a fantastic storyteller. He was in sales, but he was, he was a fantastic storyteller and not, you know, I know people who can't tell stories at all and I know people tell rambling stories that never get anywhere. Neither of those are really all that enjoyable. My father was great at telling stories that got to a place. They were funny and they were interactive and they were entertaining and, and a lot of times they were educational and he, I'm sure he did a lot when he was doing sales. And I guess I've ended up with some of that. You know, a lot of positions I've been in, I've been told that I do a decent job of translating technical things to non-technical technical people. And I work a lot in, in areas where I'm crossing those paths, where I work with highly technical people and, and some that aren't, and I'm somewhere in the middle. And I've always been able to— well, mostly at least— been able to have these metaphors you talk about and be able to connect these dots and say, well, this does this, it's like this. A lot of similes for me, I guess. A lot of similes because I say like a lot. And a lot of meetings I have those discussions too. When I'm hearing things, I'm trying to translate. Sometimes it's just for myself so I can say, well, hold on a second, does this— is this like that, right? And, and it tends to help the rest of the room sometimes too. So I hadn't thought much about it, but I probably owe my father a fair amount for it. You know, you ask where it comes from because he was an excellent storyteller and he was a good communicator and he was also persuasive. And it does help, like you said, putting things in context. You can give somebody all this massive data and it could be, you know, for those who are an expert on the data, wow, you look at it and go, holy cow. But for anybody else, it's like, all right, that's, that's a lot of data. I have no idea what you've just shown me out. Why does this matter? And then you give them the context and you, okay, now I start to get it. Or you give 'em a story. Well, if this happens, this is what could happen. This is what the world would look like, you know, and, and then you start putting that together and you realize, ah, okay, now I understand why this is, why this really matters. And like you said, a lot of these heavily data-driven people who are brilliant people and these data scientists, it's just not how things tend to work for them. A lot of times it's here's the data, here's the answer, and, and onto the next thing. And that can be difficult, I'm sure, when they're trying to have these conversations and, and, you know, make sure it's compelling, make sure people understand the risk or the threat or the reward from whatever the data is. It's hard if people can't connect those dots because it's just data to them. And, and so you need people that can, can translate, right? Which I find fascinating. Now you've—

good, you need to make that bridge, right? And there's a— there's some point in every engineer's career where they have to start making meaning over metrics. Gotta create some relevancy, gotta create some sort of meaning to the concepts that are presented, or your concepts aren't going to go outside the data sphere. They're only going to stay within the engineering. Great, you might rise up, but at some point, if you want to lead, if you want to start your own company, if you have a great idea, if you want to take your vision higher, there's got to be a point where we create meaning over just the metrics. Whether, like, I like to say that If it to put a visual to it, like it's the difference of me saying like, here is a perfect blueprint and you're like, great, versus me saying, here is the house that we just built for you with the shutters and the paint that you asked for and the nice little walkway. It's the difference when I can paint that picture and create meaning to what it is that I'm offering you, then ideas start to click and people start to join the fight.

Yeah, that makes sense. Well, and all the more, you know, in our industry, you know, in the tech industry, most people at some point or another— maybe not most, but a lot— they're pitching, you know, they've got new ideas, they want to, they want to start a new company, right? They want to do a startup. Well, you— the compelling data won't get you funded. Like, it's going to be a part of it. Somebody's going to do the research to find out if— if you show up with just smoke and mirrors and a bunch of bullshit, you're probably not going to get funded either. You can, you can make all sorts of wild claims, but somebody can do the due diligence to figure out that you don't have anything there. But if you walk in with just massive data and drop it on the table, that's not going to do much good either. People have to understand, what are you trying to do? How are— how is what you're doing better? How are you going to change the market? You know, what is your addressable market? What's the revenue going to look like? All these other details, right? But, but you have to have that compelling story. I suppose that's why I've always heard that a lot of startups, you have a CTO and a CEO, right? The CEO tends to be the more charismatic, the deliverer, the pitch person and the CTO tends to be the very technical person that can understand how it all works and builds the thing, right? And they, I've always been told that's sort of the matchup you want in, in a lot of startups. I don't know if it's true across the board. I'm sure there's overlaps, but I imagine that's part of it. Now, do you end up creating CTOs that can do it all? Don't need, don't need these charismatic CEO models.

100%. Who needs that charismatic CEO? Get rid of 'em.

I'm not enjoying this conversation anymore.

I'm kidding. The, when I started, I started in the Bay Area and I worked with a lot of teams going going through Y Combinator trying to get their funding. And you described the scenario, the Julio frontman, right? The lead singer who's out there wanting, but there were a lot of teams that they just had all the engineers going up there and they lacked that salesperson kind of persona to sell the idea. And it is possible. It's just a matter of learning frameworks to communicate your message. And delivering it in a way that connects with your audience as well, right?

Well, and then you also have to be honest and authentic, right? I think that's the other, the other component, which I'm sure you teach as well.

Was today we still have to be honest and authentic?

Well, I mean, no, that seems okay. That's a valid point.

I, I think ethically you do, but in order to be successful, that was me being— you said, you said the show could get a little bit, a little, you know, cheeky. That was me being cheeky. No, for me Confidence is where authenticity meets comfort. If I'm not being authentic and honest, there's a part of my internal compass off, and I can't show up with confidence. I can't show up with agency in a room if I'm not showing up with integrity and honesty. So authenticity meets comfort. That's where you start to see presence. That's where you start to see confidence. 100%. There needs to be authenticity. It takes time. And I'm gonna just take a moment here. It takes time because oftentimes we are conditioned to behave a certain way in certain situations. And those conditioning are not necessarily the right structure that we wanna bring forward in different contexts. I might not feel like I belong in that room because of, because of, because of whatever the reason is. I have to fake it till I make it. I have to perform. Until that performance becomes an authentic truth. So I've gotta try on a little bit of something inauthentic until I can make it my own so that I can operate in different contexts. Otherwise, I'm gonna stay inside that same conference room for the rest of my career. So, yeah.

No, it's a good point. Obviously, you know, the exception being narcissists who have plenty of confidence right away, whether they have any authenticity at all. And, we seem to run into them somewhat regularly. But, but for everybody else, I mean, I think, I think you make a great point, you know, that, that to be confident, you have to, you have to have some authenticity. It's very hard for most people to confidently stand up, just lie, just look you right in the eye and just tell you things that aren't true. It's, some people do it really well. Most people struggle with it and, and it ends up being something you can see or, or react to, or you can smell it on them almost at some point and start digging through that. So, I mean, that's a really good point that you have to have that, that authenticity, you know, in order to be successful. So listen, we've kind of eaten in a little bit, you know, to the second question I was gonna ask, but that's fine. There's more in here still to dig into. As you're going through this, as you're, as you're working with people, what are some of the biggest challenges that you see regarding communication? Whether it's with clients, whether it's just generally speaking, you know, with all of your experience, what are some of the biggest challenges you see in communication?

Well, we kind of clicked on the biggest challenge, and that is too much data and not enough connection. So there is a desire to create a full picture for people. The second thing that I find, especially within the analytical space, is the misconception around neutrality. I can send you an email that is just data and it will be perceived as negative. What research shows is neutral is negative. And I think the disconnect is if it's a data person to a data person and you're sending me data, I hear the data, I keep moving. If we're in a one-on-one conversation and it's two data junkies, like, you tell me something, I'm not offended by you calling out my work as being wrong. I'm going to be intrigued and follow it down. If it's a non-data person, neutral comes across as negative. And what I offer for my clients is When you have an opposing idea, when you need to correct someone, when you know what's right, but you don't wanna simply step on someone, start with an acknowledgement. Start with what you appreciate about what they're bringing to the conversation. Even if it's just simply to expand the look at this, like, I appreciate that we're bringing more attention to this because it is important, whatever it is, before dropping in Here's the truth and you're wrong and this is what's right. Because, you know, we've all been there. No one likes to be like, present a great idea in a conference room and then have someone shut it down immediately. That one, two sentence of acknowledgement before giving what seems to be neutral data is going to win over the hearts of the room and the person that you're actually trying to course correct as well.

That's interesting. So you don't think when somebody's wrong that I should open with, well, actually, and then give my answer? You don't think that's, that's not effective? The answer seems to be a very common one, right? Well, actually, and then somebody jumps in. It's a cliché. It's usually so often. Yeah. It's like the, the king of opens for mansplaining a lot of times, frankly. But yeah, it's, but you make, that's a really interesting tip of, of opening up with, you know, some sort of, uh, acknowledgement and, and validation. Like I said, even if you can't, even if their concept or their comment is completely wildly out there, at least, you know, hey, I'm glad we're working on this together. You know, I'm glad we're having this conversation. You know, something that starts positively is really a powerful point. It seems very simple, frankly, but it makes a lot of sense. It gets people feeling like we're together on this and not that you're going to make me look bad and just trying to show me up.

I had a client who rose up the ranks and is now a CISO at a health organization. And when she was early on, When she was early on in her career, she was labeled as a negative or as the risk manager, and she was always putting, like, she was always shutting things down. And it was because data analytical people were sitting there listening to the room, we're tabulating, we come up with an answer, and then we just give the answer. And it feels abrupt. It feels like disconnected from the room. It's right. But no one can swallow it because it feels like a bitter pill. It feels like a slap in the face. When we started working together and she started, she was like, oh yeah, this is where I have to ask you how you're feeling. I'm like, yeah, that's a good place to start. Like, it's a matter of like, show a little bit of like appreciation. What I appreciate about what you said before jumping into how they're completely wrong, they'll be able to listen. And that's how she's gotten promoted.

So Hmm. And it's, it's funny, when I first moved from the government space to the private sector, my first role was, there were a lot of not desirable things about it as it turned out, and there were some good ones and I learned some things. But it is interesting you mention it because one thing that I was criticized for early on was that I was negative, that I, I, I always was finding the no in things or, you know, how we couldn't do something, which is interesting 'cause in my entire career, I don't think I'd ever been labeled that before. And it was a shock to me and but I'd spent my career in the government space, right? I'd been in the military, I'd been in the defense industry, and, and again, Intel a lot of times is a matter of yeses and nos, and here's the data to support it, et cetera. And it hadn't really occurred to me at the time, certainly, and, and even years later that there was a way I was communicating that it was probably exactly what you're talking about here in that I was coming in and saying, well, actually, but you know, maybe a little better, but essentially it was, you know, a really bad or unsupported idea. And I'd be coming back and saying, here's the data that refutes this and here's the direction we should go for these reasons, et cetera, because that's how you You do it in intelligence and rarely do people get offended about it sometimes, but normally it's like, oh, okay, you had more data than I did, or you, you know, you had a different analysis and I appreciate that. And, but I, I was perceived certainly as negative and, and difficult. And you're always finding a way, you know, to say no to things or how it can't be done as opposed to trying to creatively find a way to get it done. And it was probably in my communication. So again, somebody who communicates for a living and has for a long time and, and considers myself a decent communicator. But even I was doing exactly what you're talking about, I think, in that I was in a different culture and I hadn't translated my, my standard communicating style to match a new culture I'd never been to before and, and was being perceived as negative when in my side I was like, this isn't negative, it's just data. I'm just, this is the intel, this is how it works. Took me a while. I'm, I'm a little better at it now. Probably not as good as I should be, but it took me a while to recognize.

There's a both and, there's a both and to this. Like I work with a lot of clients who go from being an independent contractor consultant to being an employee.

I think it's so—

and you're kind of like referencing the same thing because as a consultant, they're being paid for their time. Time is money. And I need to come in with the direct— like, I don't need to fluff. I don't need to compliment you. I don't need to throw roses and petals at you and then tell you what the truth is that you're missing. I need to go right to it. When they pivot and become an employee, that is perceived as directness and cold and uncaring and and lack of cooperation, and you're not a team player, and we don't wanna work with you. And it's the same information, but all of a sudden I'm supposed to sugarcoat it and be polite and help you find your truth. And it's, I think it's frustrating for someone making that transition. And I, again, it's also similar to if I was in an all data circle, I can talk data and no one's going to get offended by it. But if I am over here and I'm in with the people managers and the people pleasers and the people leaders and all of the people, people, people, there's, there wants to be some heart, there wants to be some connection before the data is delivered. So connection before content, it's a great rule of thumb for anybody transitioning from an all data space conversation to key stakeholders that are maybe not data related, Talk about connection before you have a content drop.

Yeah, that's, that's really interesting. I mean, it's, you're giving some good pieces of information people can use without even having to reach out to you and, and, and pay you for it. So you're probably hurting your business, but I'm sure there'll be opportunities that'll still come nonetheless. But I mean, it's a, it's a really good point. So, you know, I, I guess another question that comes up for me, you know, when you talk about, you know, challenges with communication, where does imposter syndrome fit in this? I mean, it, it's a, it's rampant in our industry and probably every industry that I imagine. Where does that fit into this? How do you overcome that? I mean, maybe that goes back to some of the discussion you said about confidence. Is that— does that help get over it? Are there other tricks to getting over imposter syndrome and being able to speak confidently?

I love every conversation about imposter syndrome because everybody has it, but it shows up in squirrely ways. I can be 100% confident most of the time, and then I get into this one context and all of a sudden I'm like out of breath. I don't know how to breathe anymore. I facilitated a session at the World Economic Forum and going into that, I, my imposter monster went into full rage mode. It was like, I don't belong here. These people are so much more savvy, blah, their money, blah, blah, blah. And my, I called my coach and I was marching around the conference room as he was like, why should they hear you? Why is the message important? Why do you add value? How do you add value? Why is your message important? Until I got back into a place. So, Imposter syndrome is something that everybody deals with, and it's usually contextualized, whether it's because you see that person as a higher seniority, more intelligent, more well-paid, better dressed. I don't know what it is that's going to trigger whatever. The key is to know that we're all going to deal with it, and we need tools and how to manage it when it comes up. First tool is with the body. The second tool is with the mind, right? With the mind, negativity bias, we're going to be diving into what's wrong, what are the potential risks. Like, I don't want to go in here and shut down, make an amygdala hijack, fight, flight, freeze, all that kind of stuff. You need to focus on what's the positive potential. Start asking questions that lead the mind to start thinking of what's the positive potential in this situation versus allowing your mind to worry about all the things that could go wrong. Takes work, takes effort. And it, just like my coach did for 10 minutes marching around that conference room table, it shifted me enough to go out and actually do my job. The other side is the body itself. If the body in, if it's negativity bias, if the imposter's coming up, our body is going to close in on itself. It's naturally going to become smaller and comforting. It's just self-comforting. We're gonna bring our hands up to our face. We're gonna start comforting. Right? So freaking the body into expanding and being open, taking up space, using a bigger, fuller voice, letting our voice come from our body rather than our throat, letting our voice come from our body. This is going to start a loop that creates a— it starts to mitigate the imposter syndrome in the system. So when I'm working with anybody and they are having an imposter syndrome that's come up contextually with this situation, We work on those two fronts first, and then we dig underneath. What are the stories and the beliefs and whatever that you have come to believe around a particular context that's keeping you from feeling capable of being 100% yourself, right? Narcissists are going to just boldly go into everything all the way. But luckily, the non-psychopaths out there are self-aware enough to have humility and to be aware of like, oh, that That person's giving me a facial expression that says that maybe my message isn't landing and I can over-internalize it or I can breathe in and be like, okay, that's probably not about me. I'm going to keep giving my message and keep going.

So yeah, that's a good point. You mentioned narcissists again, because narcissists, I, in, in studying a little bit of imposter syndrome, cause like everybody, I think I have some, I have a fair amount that might surprise people, but narcissists don't have that because I had read basically if you have imposter syndrome, it's a good sign you're not a narcissist, frankly. Because they don't, they don't have this. They don't have any doubts about themselves. And generally people with imposter syndrome are relatively high performers because you know enough to realize how much you don't know. And you see how much other people do know that you don't know because, you know, everything's complimentary. Nobody knows everything. So you have to know enough to even realize how much you don't know before you realize there's a chance that you might feel like an imposter, right? And we often lose track of what we know and what we provide and what our value is. And I go through some of this, you know, I think it surprises people. You know, you mentioned the introvert extrovert thing. Everybody assumes I'm this massive extrovert because I spend time on stage and on microphone or whatever. And I'm not really, I probably was, but I'm actually, I'm what they call an ambivert now. I think I'm more of an extroverted introvert in that I like doing this stuff and I do get excited for it. It doesn't necessarily drain all my energy like a true introvert does, but it does drain some of me over time. And so, you know, it's not the natural pure extrovert that people think. And there's plenty of times when I wonder, why is anybody listening to anything I say? You know, maybe I don't really have this knowledge. Maybe one day somebody's gonna wake up and go, this guy doesn't know anything. This guy's an idiot. Why are we listening to anything he says? And then the next day somebody listens to me again, or I write something and somebody goes, wow, that's really good. And I'm like, all right, I guess I'll go on for another day. And I just try to remind myself there's a, there's a history here. I could not have possibly fooled everybody for this long. I'm just not that smart. So my own imposter syndrome helps. I'm like, I'm not smart enough to fool everybody. So the evidence says I must be okay at some things I do cuz people keep paying attention and And I'm not smart enough to fool the world. So it's probably not the technique I would go for. I like yours better than, than myself.

But there's, there's a lot of value to small steps and doing it one day at a time. And like, you know, if a person was uncomfortable with public speaking, go ahead and go to a Toastmasters or take that opportunity to speak, present to your meeting or lead the meeting or whatever. The little wins add up because the imposter syndrome left unchecked is going to convince us but it's not okay. And when we go out and do it and we realize, oh wow, I lived, I know somebody said it was okay. Like you can keep going, but you're right. You did fool me, AJ. I totally saw you as an extrovert. There's no way I'm seeing— you were looking at other people's shoes all through those halls. There's no way.

Oh no, no. I'm, I'm definitely in that environment. I'm definitely an extrovert. I will look people in the eye, but I'm, I'm more of a, like it's an extroverted introvert, I suppose, or an ambivert, but So I gotta ask another question before we, before we move on. We're talking about the challenges, right? So I don't normally go down this path, but in this case I feel like I sort of have to. Let's talk about the differences for women versus men. So specifically in tech, you know, women in tech have a terrible time. Tech has not been a welcoming industry. I, I, listen, I can't speak for women obviously, and, and I'm sure a lot of industries are not welcoming. I do know my industry's not, my industry's been terrible and people have been fighting for years trying to make this better, mostly women, which is unfortunate because in order to help a group of people who are being treated poorly, you need people who are in the primary group to help, basically. People who are in advantageous positions have to be advocates. Nobody can advocate for themselves alone and get there usually. But anyway, women in tech specifically, right? So you have, you have, we have brilliant women in our industry. We're having a hard time keeping women in tech or encouraging more to join because there's so many guys in this industry that are just jerks and misogynists and abusive and all these things that go with it. And I can see why somebody go, I just don't wanna be a part of that industry. But we need these brains and we need these differences of opinions and we need these different points of view. So how much experience do you have? And you mentioned the CISOs, you have some obviously. How much experience do you have working with women in tech versus men? And, and what do you see as the different challenges there and, and how do you help over— help them overcome that so we can, you know, build a stronger base of women in our industry and bring more in?

Yeah, I appreciate this conversation. And what I wanna clarify too, male presenting, obviously I don't know what it's like. I don't know what it's like to go into that meeting. And I have worked with, I would say, predominantly females and have been my clients primarily because they're attempting to get their voice heard in environments where they're being discounted. They're facing a double standard. They have to thread the needle of giving warmth and clarity and directness. Without like, it's not easy what they're attempting to do. And I don't even remember your question, but the idea is that women certainly do have a higher bar when it comes to in within the tech field to show up and be themselves authentically without being judged and dismissed and all of that. And my hope is as the generations that keep moving through, this becomes a non-issue. I do believe, you know, the younger generations are less derogative, less quick to judge, less expressive of those unwelcome comments and meetings and things like that. They should not have to deal with any of it. What I would offer to any of the female tech leaders out there who are struggling to get their voice heard is to just remind yourself that your message is more important. Then whatever their nonsense is around sexism, misogyny, all of those unpleasantries that are still rampant in society, your message is more important and the right people are going to respect it and lift you up and help you go, help you build a career, help you build your vision. There was a woman in the Obama White House who started a process of amplification. They called it Amplify. So when one woman would say something in the meeting, another woman would repeat, oh, as she just said, da da da da, because women's voices don't get picked up in a meeting. And a man can say the same thing, repeat, and then they'll give him the credit. So if you're a female, find a female to help create that amplification echo chamber and within your sphere. And Find a champion within each room that you are in who can give you that backup when it comes time so that you're not the one that has to call out misbehavior. Identify who's going to be that person in the room that's watching your back and you're not having to clean up because you're right, the target should not have to do the education. Should not have to do the course correction. It should be the allies. And I think there's a lot of good people out there that want to be allies and designate them, help them support you. I would happily be an ally if you would like to. I'd love to work with you and see what we can do to amplify your voice all around.

Yeah. No, I think it's a good point. I mean, I, I first experienced it, well, I guess in retrospect, probably in the military. I just didn't notice. Right. The military is certainly male dominated. Still. And I was in the Air Force, which is theoretically the most progressive of the branches, I suppose, but that's not necessarily saying all that much, right? There was plenty of, plenty of unprofessional behavior still. But I think when I went in the private side, well, when I went in defense contracting, right, I was with a large company, very good company, good contract. But I remember seeing it, the one of the first contracts I was on, this team was brilliant. Again, it was one of those teams where I didn't necessarily fit. I did for my role, I found out, but I worked with a lot of mathematicians and operations researchers and, and brilliant people, literally you know, a rocket scientist was on the team, a guy that was his background, right? So, and we always joked about it, and PhDs and just some brilliant people, right? And, and that included some brilliant young women. But we had a real challenge early on. Some of the brightest minds in the room happened to be a couple of young women who were fresh out of college. And I just watched over and over again as they were just— they had good ideas that were just ignored, or they were talked over. Or again, you'd say, you know, they'd say something, nobody would do anything with it. A guy would say the exact same thing and suddenly it's brilliant. And so I ended up taking on that role because it just, it just irritated me, frankly. I was like, hold on a second, that was her idea. Or if people were talking over me, hold on a second, let's hear, you know, I'm not going to call anybody out by name, but let's hear her speak. And so it became more of a habit of mine because they were really bright people and they deserved better. And I was dealing with older white dudes for the most part. I don't know if race necessarily doesn't play a role in this case, but they just happened to be. And, and I was so younger myself. Now I'm the older white dude, I guess. But, but I, I, it became a thing, right? It became kind of a pattern. I've, I've carried with me in other roles I've had and other organizations I've had. Because I believe in, you know, inclusiveness. I believe, and I, I called it out. I, you know, as I asked you the question I asked about women in tech, I could have expanded this. Certainly it's not just women in tech that struggle. I don't know, LGBTQ environment, you know, LGBTQ people, other minorities, you know, it's, I assume the advice is probably similar across the board about finding ad, you know, finding advocates and allies and, and the echoing. I love that idea of making sure that voice gets heard. Maybe it takes a second listen for people to hear it as opposed to the white guy in the room who gets heard the first go round, unfortunately still. But I think that's a good point, right? With a, we have to be able to advocate for people and, and be allies and, and provide, you know, tools and, and, you know, and strategies like you do. It's unfortunate, you know, the bar is higher, you know, but I think it goes back actually to an earlier point you said, the one I was failing on previously, which is, you know, if you just come in with the right answer, it's not necessarily going to work. You do have to open with that whole, you know, I'm glad we're having this conversation. You know, I'm, I'm glad you brought that point up kind of a thing, which feels sort of, you know, I don't know, placating and pacifying. And, but it's probably a good strategy for everybody, you know, not just everybody who's in a disadvantaged position because it does disarm people. So maybe that's a strategy that anybody can use, but it does sound like we're gonna need a lot more work with allies and, and support and active support. Just saying, oh, I, I root for you and I'm doing nothing to help that person in the room isn't really being an ally. It's, it's bullshit basically.

It is. To create a shift in culture requires every, all hands on deck and it needs to be presented in every meeting. Right? And to create that shifting culture requires the person that's not the target creating a space. And here's what I would offer to any people leader out there, whether you are a tech people leader or in another department, is remember that everybody, everybody knows what it feels like to be an outsider. At some point in our lives, everybody has had that feeling of being an outsider. Bring that sense to every meeting that you're leading, and you'll catch and find ways to be more inclusive of everybody in the meeting, 'cause you'll notice when people start to withdraw. You'll notice when someone doesn't feel or is not getting heard, and you'll be able to lift and move that. Connection before content, it's kind of the gold standard for creating inclusive spaces. All the way around.

I like that. And that's great advice for anybody who is a people leader or is organizing and leading meetings. You can see it on people. It's not that hard. People don't generally hide if they've just reached a point where they don't feel like they can communicate or they don't feel like they're being heard. People, human nature, as you said, the body kind of curls in on itself. People retract, they pull away, they stop paying attention, they stop watching. It's not because they don't care. It's not because they're lazy. It's probably because they feel like they've been tuned out one too many times or stepped on and they've just given up. And then you've lost that, that asset, that resource, that, you know, that brainpower. It's not that hard in my opinion, at least if you're up in front of a group and you're, you know, or you're, you're the person who's advising or you're the person who's, you know, managing the conversations, you can see the people that aren't communicating, that aren't, you know, involved. And, and it's a chance to look in and say, you know, why is that happening? How do I help make sure their voice is being heard and let them know it's a free, safe space to do that? You know, people get shut down and at some point they just give up and go, well, nobody's gonna listen to me anyway. And that's a waste. That's a wasted resource. Not only is it bad and it's inhuman to do that, but it's also just, if you're thinking about just from business sense, from money, it's a wasted resource. You're paying that person. You're not getting the best out of them now.

The most productive, most successful teams are the ones that celebrate the biggest diversity and accept, create the space for both the failure and the success. This is what all research tells us. In order to create a successful team, We have to create spaces where diversity is honored. And in an age where DEI, diversity, equity, inclusion, has become like a criminal act, it's a politically criminal act. It's not a legally criminal, but we're not allowed. People are still starving for tools. How do I connect with somebody on a different culture? How do I connect with somebody who has been in a targeted class? How do I become an ally? We still are thirsty for the tools to create those bridges with other cultures. And I'm glad we're having this conversation because it needs to be had.

Yeah, no, I agree. I think it's, it's hard not to have that conversation. And, you know, as you mentioned, DEI, you know, it's, it's the buzzword right now, right? And, and, you know, it's unfortunate that that's happening. Like, diversity works. It's as simple as that. There's plenty of research to show that. I'm an Intel guy. I've talked about it. I've written about it. I've done presentations on the value because otherwise you get groupthink. I don't care if you took 10 of the most brilliant people in the world, if they're all exactly the same demographic, that's still not as good a team as if you took 5 of them and took 5 other people who are not brilliant but are, you know, good at what they do, but are from different points of view. You're actually getting a better result, you know, because the 10 people that are identical are identical. You get one answer. You don't need 9 of them. You probably don't need 8 of them at least. And right there, it's not a hard thing. Right there.

That is, that is the key right there. It's looping it back to the imposter syndrome. The idea oftentimes imposter syndrome comes up because I'm in a room full of like-minded, like visual, like, like, like some way, and I don't feel like I belong. And I remember coaching a financial advisor who was the only female on the team at her level. And she was like, they're all guys and they all have that. And I'm like, what unique perspective do you bring that they can't? What's unique about you and the way you see the world that's going to be different? What are you able to do with the clients that they cannot? Like, it's easier for us to compare and be like, oh, but they're all— but we need to celebrate the uniqueness of what makes us feel like an imposter in some ways, because our unique perspective is what's going to eventually elevate the entire team and make us all more successful. Okay, that's a great point.

Like, I don't want to fit in necessarily, at least not entirely, right? If you fit in, if you're like everybody else around you, then all right, whatever, you know, it's comfortable, but you're not accomplishing much. You're probably not delivering much. You know, being a bit of an outsider and a bit of a different voice, within reason obviously, is beneficial. You know, being someone who can come in and stir the pot a little bit. And it's a fine line. I've had these discussions with people when, you know, I'm at a point in my career where I say and do all sorts of things that people go, I can't believe he said that and got away with it. And I'm like, well, I've been doing this a long time and some of the things I say work out. So people pay less attention to the problems that might come with them. I don't recommend on day one you talk the way I do in a meeting to a CEO. You might not enjoy the results, but it is one of the things that builds over time. And there's also that credibility that comes with it of, listen, you can keep doing it your way if you want. I've had these conversations with people and I said, all right, I was brought in here because I was told you had a challenge. And then I might be able to help you. You're not telling me you know everything and don't need my help. I'm going to go in the other room and go back to work and I'll just deal with your replacement someday, I guess, because your problem is still your problem and I'm going to go do something else. Now, that isn't the opening conversation I'll have with that person, but I have had that conversation before because at some point you may have to say, I'm here because I offer something you don't have, but if you think you have everything, then, then that's fine and it's okay. And maybe I'm, you'll be fine with your life, but it's, you know, it's important to be in a position to say, this is what comes that's different than what you have. I think that's a, you know, it's a great that you mentioned it, that perfect example of you're the only woman in the room. That's an advantage, not a disadvantage. Don't get me wrong, it's a huge disadvantage culturally, and I understand that. I'm not gonna downplay how hard it is for a woman in that room. 'Cause I, as you said before, I'm a guy too. I don't, I can't speak for women, but I can see where there's that advantage and how you can lean into that and say, well, here's things you guys don't know. You can't connect with certain customers in certain ways or whatever the project might be because you don't, You don't have what I have. You don't have my view of the world. And that can really be powerful, even if maybe that room doesn't want to hear it, but another room will, I'm sure. So, so I do want to transition. You know, we had one other question prepped for today. We've hit a bunch of these things, so it's good. So, so I'm probably a little bit to add to it, but you know, we talk about what are some of the high-level strategies that you coach your clients to use? You know, you talk about metaphors move minds. You mentioned that a few times. I think that's fantastic, right? Storytelling. What other high-level strategies can people take away from this conversation and probably be able to use right away? But then they can work with you if they want to learn more about the details on how to apply these things.

Right. I hope that a lot of this is landing with people and that you're getting ideas of things to try. And one that I would offer is space signals strength. When I'm in a room, the amount of strength, amount of space that I'm taking up sends a message in an internal loop and to the room of what kind of confidence, what kind of comfort I'm bringing to the space. So one quick hit for anybody, if you want to feel more confident in a room, just take up more space and watch what happens internally.

Yeah.

We're both like, I'm going to do that now.

I have a camera for everybody watching.

Elbows up. You know, a lot of times when people get up on stage to speak, and they'll keep their elbows close to their body and speak sort of like this, right? We want the elbows away from the body as you're speaking. Use the full breadth of it. And I was coaching somebody recently that they're so used to being on Zoom and virtual platforms, they've started doing all of their gestures right here in front of the— inside the screen. And when they got in person, they were still doing these sort of little weird pterodactyl kind of gestures. I'm like, let yourself go. Like, use the space. Let's see. So space signals strength, a very simple strategy to change your internal mindset and send a message to the rest of the room of how you are showing up in that room.

Interesting.

Yeah.

I've thought of it.

Go ahead.

No, you got more. Go ahead.

I just want my number one principle that I like to leave everybody with is You, then me. And we kind of talked about this acknowledgement idea, and this is what it's about. Any time I open my mouth, if I can talk about you, your perspective, your wants, your fears, your hopes, your concerns, or just in some way acknowledging what you just shared with me before I get to my agenda, it's going to create an opening. It's going to deepen rapport. It's going to create the possibility of collaboration moving forward. Even if I do need to tell you that you're completely wrong, If I can speak to you before me, I'll create the relevance, I'll create the loop, and then we can get a lot more done. So I definitely want to throw that in.

You then me. That's good. I like that a lot. It makes sense. You know, and it goes back to that earlier piece, like I said, that you talked about with, you know, opening with, you know, I'm glad we're having this conversation, or I'm glad you mentioned that, or whatever it is, right? To acknowledge that side, right? You then me is, I mean, that's really easy. I can remember that. And my memory is lousy. So I'll try to work more on that one myself, I think, cuz you then me makes sense and, and it creates that connection, right? And you mentioned the, you know, more space, right? I think that's interesting. You know, obviously I've done a lot of public speaking. As I said, I've been on a lot of stages. I'm notorious for a guy who paces. I tend to walk back and forth across the stage. You know, I, I, when I'm outta shape, it doesn't sound good cuz I pant a lot, I'm sure. But the reason I've always done it is it helps me, well, part of it's probably nervous energy, but it also helps me make sure I'm focusing on different parts of the audience. You know, I don't just stare at one person right in front of me. I don't, I hate podiums. I'll rarely be behind one. I normally don't need a mic because I have a loud voice, but if I have one, I'll carry it. That's fine. But I tend to walk the whole stage back and forth as long as I'm not blocking whatever screen people are looking at for slides. And I never really thought about it, but that does take up a lot of space, I suppose, too. You know, it's, I'm certainly confident in the stage. I own the whole stage when I'm up there, you know, unless it's a panel conversation and then I'm not doing that to people clearly. I'm not just standing in front of people, but I hadn't really thought about it, I guess, that it does take up a lot of space. I do it as much for nervous energy, but also to make sure I'm projecting to all segments of the audience, not just focused on one little area. But I suppose it has that extra benefit that you mentioned of, you know, it gives you a sense of confidence.

It would. I love that you're— I want to call out the nuance to what you're saying. And I do want a person to own the entire stage. Don't stay limited to one. Like, if you're simply pacing back and forth, you risk meditating, like putting your audience into a hypnosis. Like, ooh, back and forth. And your content loses its meaning. Because there's no distinguishing between what's important, what's not. Like, if a person's just going back and forth, we want movements to be intentional, right? Like, move when I want to change the emphasis. Change emphasis, change position. Move to another part of the stage, make another point. Stay there when you make the point. Same thing with gestures, right? I used to gesture, like, all the time. I was just— I couldn't speak if my hands weren't moving. And I thought I was orchestrating a beautiful symphony, but people told me that it just was distracting. So My coach had to pull me in, and I had to become more intentional and have a certain gesture to emphasize a certain word rather than gesturing throughout the show. So movement, gestures, those things can fuzzy our message if they're not done intentionally. But to your point, use the whole stage, take up space on that stage, make it all yours. And you don't have to tune into just one person. You can clock different areas of the room. But You want to let the audience feel you. The number one easiest way to help the audience feel connected to you, lean in or take a step in, right? One step towards the stage edge or leaning into your camera. Now don't just stay there because it gets kind of creepy. It's a little too intimate, right? But if you can have that one moment where you lean in, connect and then come back, it's gonna help your audience a great deal.

No, that's a good point. And it, to be able to engage with the audience too. I, you know, I try to have some interaction a lot of times when I present. It's, you know, have a question, have a, have something, a joke, whatever it might be. Hopefully you get some, some sort of interaction from the audience so that they feel like they're involved, you know? And you can tell, gauge an audience a little bit better, you know, if, if you can see some sort of reaction from them. So I try to have a poll question in there or a joke or, you know, an individual question or something at least to, to keep people involved.

You already got all the tools. You, you got it all. I love that you, you, you know all these things about public speaking. You, you and I should go on a road show and like teach like public speaking classes. How about that?

I'd be, I'd be happy to do that. To be honest, there's things I didn't know all of it clearly. I mean, you've got some good pieces in here. You know, the you then, then me is a really good tip that I hadn't really thought of before. So I'm happy to go on the road with you. If you wanna teach public speaking, I'd love to, to go do some, some work together on some of that stuff. It's always fun to talk about, you know, public speaking, talk about leadership and communicating and, you know, connecting with people. So listen, we're running out of time. I want to wrap up the show. So first, before I get into that, well, no, I just wrap up and then we'll figure out the rest later. Anyway, so we always have one question that everybody gets at the end of the show. And you don't, you don't get a pass, obviously. So I know at this point, people have watched the show enough. So you see, you know, the question is going to be at least you got the prep, I'm sure. But the name of the show is Unspoken Security. So with that in mind, tell me something you've never told anyone before, something unspoken, something that I don't share.

Is that I have an insane fear of parking garages.

Really?

There's actually a word for it. I forget, garagaphobic or some garageophobia. I don't remember. But like, it doesn't make sense to me. Cars were not meant to be driven inside of structures. Like, they need to be out on the road. So like, the minute I pull into a parking garage, I can't breathe and I feel like I'm going to die up until I get out of that place. So yeah. There's my unspoken truth that I hope doesn't come back to bite me one day.

That is, that is interesting. I've never heard of that before. I mean, I, I get it when you say it like, you know, it's not natural, right? It's sort of like people are afraid of flying cuz you know, people aren't meant to be hurtling through the air, you know, hundreds of miles an hour at 30,000 feet. So yeah, I guess large parking structures, I could see the concern. Okay, why do we have cars stacked 4 or 5, you know, layers high? But that's interesting.

I've never heard that fear before. The worst, the worst, put me on a ferry, a car ferry where they're stacking cars on a boat.

I'm like, come on, you're trying to kill kill me right now.

Like, I did that once. I got out of my car, ran to the front of the boat. I'm like, we're gonna die. This is it.

So how do you, how do you manage that fear? How do you work yourself through it? I mean, I imagine you avoid parking structures a lot, but I mean, when you can't—

structures.

Yeah.

No, Uber has been a boon for me. I just like, I parked far away and take an Uber to wherever I need to be.

Really?

Going in those structures?

Yeah.

Oh my God. I went to, was it the Emmys or the Golden? I don't remember. I just remember we were trapped in that parking garage for an hour and a half and I was certain that we'd all, we were, that was it. Send in reinforcements because we're dead.

Now, do you know where that fear comes from? Is there like a childhood trauma that, you know, is associated with it? Have you done research on where it comes from? Because you, you don't sound like you're afraid of flying. Are you, are you afraid of flying?

You're not claustrophobic and I'm not afraid of tunnels. I had a family member who was afraid of tunnels, right? So like, they seem to be kind of related, you know, but yeah, absolutely. I don't know where it is. I just, I just remember the alma came. I don't know why I'm going into so much detail. I was in a parking garage that wasn't solid. Like you could see like some, they're open.

Yeah.

And I was like, oh, this feels a little better. At least I can see the world. Like the garages that go underground. No, it's a hard pass. We're not parking in there. Drop me off.

That is fascinating. Garages underground, but tunnels, no. I mean, tunnels can be under mountains, like waterways.

Fascinating.

There's tunnels under the, under the Chesapeake Bay, and people drive cars through them, obviously. So that's a very specific and interesting fear. I won't go any deeper into it because I don't know any more about it. I don't want to trigger anything with you. I want you to, you know, have a panic attack at the end of the show here. It's been a fun, fun conversation, but, but that is fascinating. Good news, it probably won't work against you. I don't know how anybody sneakily surprise you and, you know, kidnap you into a car park. I don't think so. You're probably safe. But if anybody wants to get Salvatore to give them a discount on his services, apparently all you gotta do is get him into a car park and, and there's a good chance that you can get anything you want out of the guy.

So it's gonna be a very fast session. It's gonna be a very fast session.

Just drag him into a parking structure, interrogate him all day. Oh my God, that's very interesting. So listen, we are going to wrap up this point, but before we go, anything you want to plug? Any last thoughts? You want to talk about where people can find you? I think maybe you have a book, you know, whatever it might be that you have going on.

Maybe. I have a book, Clear and Compelling. If you want to connect with me, if any of this is resonating with you, if you'd like to hear more about the strategies, go to clearandcompellingplaybook.com. You'll get access to the whole resource library with a lot of those frameworks and techniques. And I'd love to hear from you. I'd love to hear, like, what shows up for you when you go to speak, like, what comes up for you? Where do you see your strengths? Where do you see your opportunities? I love working with leaders who are getting their voice out there. So clearandcompellingplaybook.com.

All right. Well, you heard it here, guys. clearandcompellingplaybook.com. You can catch up with Salvatore Manzi. He's a communications coach and a, a really fun guy to hang out with, frankly. So listen, with that, I'm gonna go wrap it up for today. Again, thank you very much for coming on, Salvatore. Thanks for all your tips and tricks and, and insight really into effective communications, especially for data-driven leaders. Really appreciate it. I'm sure we've done a lot of good for the world, at least you have today, and, and I'm sure we'll get some follow-ups on it. So, and with that, I'm just gonna ahead and close it out. So for everybody out there at home or in their car or wherever the hell you listen to this, I guess, thank you for listening. Thanks for watching. Again, if you like the show, please, you know, subscribe and like and, and tell your friends and neighbors and, you know, let's grow the audience a bit. And if you don't like the show, just stop watching it. That's fine. And don't tell anybody. So, you know, no, tell me and I'll try to improve. But yeah, with that, let's, let's go ahead and close it out here. So again, this has been another episode of Unspoken Security.

That's a wrap for this episode of Unspoken Security. If you enjoyed this episode, follow us wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts. See you next time.