Fighting Ocean Plastic Pollution | Nicholas Mallos of Ocean Conservancy

Welcome to the Legacy All Stars podcast. We feature inspirational stories from people who dedicate themselves to helping others. Here is your host, Alan Pavloski.

Welcome back to Legacy All Stars podcast where we celebrate inspirational people making a difference in the lives of others. Today's guest is Nicholas Malice, Vice President of Ocean Plastics at Ocean Conservancy, where he leads a global effort to to tackle one of the greatest environmental challenges of our time, plastic pollution. Nick's passion for the ocean started in his earliest days along the beaches of New Jersey and grew into a lifelong calling. From shark research to teaching in North Carolina to a pivotal moment on Midway Atoll where he saw seabirds filled with plastics. Nick's journey has been about transforming science into real world change. For the last 15 years at Ocean Conservancy, Nick has worked tirelessly to reduce plastics in our seas, leading initiatives like the International Coastal Cleanup and building global partnerships through efforts such as Protect Where We Play. His work reflects a simple but powerful belief. A healthy ocean is the foundation of life on Earth, and protecting it is essential for future generations. Welcome to the show, Nick. Good to see you again.

Thanks so much, Alan. I appreciate you having me.

Hey, before we get started on the questions, I really wanted to just say that it took a few imaginations for us to get this together and we had to reschedule a couple of times. But I was determined to have this conversation because I think the work you're doing is so incredibly important and powerful. I'm really happy to have you here.

Well, I appreciate those very kind words and appreciate you giving a platform to share a little bit about the important work that needs to be done. So really, it's a pleasure to be here.

Yeah, most definitely. Let's talk first about your personal journey and inspiration. You've described a deep love of the ocean going back to childhood. Can you share how those early memories shaped a career path that you chose?

Yeah. Thank you. My earliest memories are of the ocean and up the beach of Stone Harbor, New Jersey. I had a deep, deep love for the ocean. I remember the smells, the sights, the sounds. I remember crying every day when my parents would say, you know, it's time to leave the beach for the day. And honestly, fast forward four decades. I really feel like I am just a slightly older, more gray hair version of that same kid. But I have always been enthralled by the ocean. Want to know more about it? Beloved of it. And like many people around the world that say, oh, when I was a kid, I wanted to be a marine biologist that stuck with me and, you know, if you deviations from the course along the way, but ultimately it was always my compass and I have had the great pleasure of making a career out of it.

Yeah, what a great dream to pursue and what an amazing opportunity. We talked before and I know Midway Atoll was a turning point for you. What was it about that experience that changed your perspective and solidified your focus on plastics?

Yeah, so almost two decades ago, I had the chance to go to Midway Atoll on the Northwest Hawaiian Islands. So we're talking about 1200 miles northwest of, of Honolulu, the main Hawaiian chain. And the purpose of that trip was to go and see the liaison albatross, the Hawaiian monk seals, the Hawaiian green sea turtles, and to understand the plate of plastics on that very, very remote island. And I knew it was going to be, you know, an influential trip, but, you know, landing there in the middle of the night and you land there in the middle of the night so that you don't get a seabird in your prop. And stepping off the plane for the first time to the deafening sound of the liaison albatross calls. More than 1.2 million liaison albatross inhabit Midway. There's about a few dozen folks that live there year round just to maintain the island. It is truly a place of the wild, a place of the birds, a place of the animals. And yet being there on the most remote places on the entire planet, everywhere you look, every step you take literally, you are seeing or stepping on plastics. And that's because those incredible albatross bring all of that plastics, largely all of that plastics onto the island every year in their stomachs and feed those plastics to their young. And so being there in this remote, what should otherwise be pristine, iconic place, only to be surrounded by the true pervasiveness of plastic pollution. And what I like to think about the final way, right, we say we're going to throw that trash away. There is no away. And being there on Midway was my firsthand encounter with that final way. And it changed the trajectory of my career path. The one where I knew that plastic pollution and ocean plastics more broadly was something that I was well positioned to speak on and really devote my passion to.

Yeah, you know, as a follow up question to that, tell me more about the mechanics of how. I don't want to get so far into the weeds that it takes us, you know, the whole show to do this, but tell us more about the way that plastics are disposed of or temporarily disposed of, and how they navigate, how they make their way into the ocean and what causes it to pile up like that?

Yeah, so we'll stay with the Pacific, given the midway reference. But essentially, you know, we think about throwing plastics. If you're in a community that has recycling, you try and throw those materials that are recyclable into the recycle bin. A lot of those plastics still go into the waste bin. Others just unfortunately get polluted or littered by accident or sometimes intentionally and find their way into storm drains, down water basins, into the ocean. In some places around the world, there is little to no infrastructure to actually manage or have a place to dispose of your waste. And so all of that to say is when you have societies that are more and more being flooded with single use plastic packaging, we simply have a fundamental mismatch between the amount of waste that is being generated and where you go with it. And so whether it is through the littering or the unintentional polluting of plastics directly, or if it's plastics being shipped from the United States to other countries to manage that waste and that material finding its way in the ocean, the pathway doesn't really matter. Once it gets into the ocean, it stays there for a very long time because plastics are so durable, so persistent. And the way the ocean currents work, it's not a phenomenon that's unique to plastics. The way our ocean gyres work are essentially these large whirlpool, esque movements of currents. And in the North Pacific that circulates clockwise. And so anything that's coming into the ocean on the coast of Asia, you know, upwards of Russia, up in Alaska, it oscillates. On the west coast of the United States, it kind of gets stuck in this whirlpool and over a series of years eventually finds itself either dumping onto the Northwest Hawaiian Islands, which almost act as fingers in the middle of that whirlpool, or concentrating in what is better known as the great Pacific Carbage patch, the central of that gyre where a lot of plastics concentrate, it is not so much a floating island of trash which often gets kind of touted, but rather a soupy like material where plastics are suspended up and down the water column. And so ultimately that is really the mechanics of how plastics get out there, so to speak. And that's not just unique to the North Pacific, that happens in the South Pacific. Essentially every ocean basin around the world has its own gyre and its own unique kind of rhythm of how long it takes for plastics and other things to circulate and get kind of stuck in the middle.

Well, you know, I have A lot more questions for you, but I want to get even more granular on that. Like, as somebody, like, obviously I try to use reusable containers in every possible way. We have a robust recycling program where I live. Not everybody does. But tell me the difference that that makes to be committed to anytime you do have plastics and recyclable materials to actually be committed to recycling them, what is the difference we make as individuals in that regard?

It's a very important piece of the problem. But I would say the biggest thing we can do steps one step sooner, and that is, you know, really rethinking about how much unnecessary single use plastic we are using in the first place. So plastics are incredible material when used in the right applications. But we know time and time again that things, as you mentioned, whether it's water bottles, whether it's takeout, grocery bags, food and beverage packaging to go packaging, all of these single use plastics that we know there are suitable alternatives for, or in some cases we just don't need an alternative altogether. That is the first step in significantly reducing what ultimately is getting into the waste stream and far too often getting into the ocean, onto beaches, or onto places like Midway and Ocean Conservancy's International Coastal Cleanup, which unfortunately we're celebrating our 40th anniversary this year, meaning we've needed to clean beaches and waterways for 40 years. Every year, the most common items that are, you know, the top 10 most common items of debris found around the world are single use plastics. And so that rethinking reducing is the first step. And then after that, for the plastics that we do need, whenever possible, finding a way to responsibly dispose them into a recycling stream is a critical next step of the equation. So as we say, recycling alone cannot solve this problem, but we absolutely need to be part of the solution.

Nick, what surprised you most about when you moved from science into conservation advocacy?

Yeah, I think I still at heart, I'm a scientist. Marine ecology, shark research is kind of where I got my start. And I think the biggest step is really coming to the awareness or having that light bulb moment where it doesn't matter how good the science or information is at the end of the day is how do you actually tell that narrative and use that information in a compelling way that moves the audience you need to move, whether that's individuals, whether that is members of corporate sustainability teams, or whether that is legislatures. How do you take that critical information, science or evidence, and package that in a way that actually motivates people to ultimately take action? In a way that moves the needle, that creates the positive change that has downstream benefits for our ocean or whatever environment or cause you might be working. So I think it's that, you know, can't you see the science? The science is clear. Yeah, the science might be clear to a bunch of us, but how do we actually then translate that in a way that motivates and compels change? And I think that is always the key piece to trying to affect change, regardless of the issue you are working on.

Yeah. When it comes to reducing ocean plastics, where do you see the greatest challenges right now? Is it policy, industry, or individual behavior?

You know, again, without getting too far. And I think right now it is an uphill battle. We have been engaged in a global plastics treaty negotiations for the last three years. The most recent negotiation took place in Switzerland in August, where the goal was to come to a final text that did not happen. And ultimately, it boils down to two opposing views. One is largely of member states and nations that have a vested interest in continuing to produce oil and gas and make more and more plastics for their economic bottom line. And a large disproportionate number of the member states around the world that are committed to trying to reduce and end plastic pollution. That's not to say there are no plastics in society, but we need to take ambitious steps to put reduction caps out there to actually limit how much plastic we are producing in the first place. And that kind of. We are a bit out of stalemate right now. And the question remains, what is the next step in that process? But I think the biggest challenge we face right now is it is very challenging to separate any meaningful, ambitious action to try and reduce plastics from the fact that it is inherently linked to oil and gas production and sustained profits for the petrochemical industry.

Right, Gotcha. You mentioned that sometimes your job feels like one that shouldn't have to exist. Can you expand on that and what keeps you motivated despite those frustrations?

Yeah, I do. Like, in my dark moments, so to speak, I do often take a step back and realize I wake up, I come to my desk, I work all day long, I'm traveling to wherever I'm traveling, meeting with incredible people. And at the end of the day, we are working to try and stop a problem that shouldn't exist in the first place. And I know that sounds really simple, but if you just take a step back and really think of it like so much time and energy is put into just stopping harm from happening, and we're still not doing it, well enough. And it is. I'm not always eloquent or elegant how I say that, but it's something that I think about a lot of. It'd be great if my job didn't exist or many of us in the conservation advocacy, like our job shouldn't have to exist because somewhere along the line we have just gotten so far out of whack around like what is rational and appropriate uses of materials and resources on this planet. And I think single use plastics, the reason it has elevated so quickly as a hot button issue is it's really that poster child. We are making something 99% of the time out of fossil fuels that have taken millions of years to form to create a product that is literally used often just for seconds, and then it goes away. And again, I'm using the word incorrectly, goes into a waste bin or into a recycle bin, but never truly goes away, but continues to wreak havoc on our environment, our planet. And so that is really something I grapple with often of like it's just so asked backwards, excuse my language. But then the counter, the flip side of that is the people and the awareness around this issue in particular, you know, you and I have talked about when I started this work 15, 20 years ago, almost any time I was out talking to people or meeting with people, majority of the conversation was telling people there was a problem, teaching them about, yeah, there's actually a lot of plastics and other pollution in the ocean. Telling them why that matter what the impact of that was. That was really the narrative, like problem description, problem admiration. Fast forward to where we are now or even for the last five years. Majority of the general public at least knows or has heard about the fact that plastics, there's something going on with plastics. Maybe they don't know all the facts and figures and that's okay, but they know that like single use plastics in particular pose some challenges. And so often now when I'm engaging people or talking to people, it's like, oh yeah, I've heard all about ocean plastic, I've heard all about plastic pollution. Like, how do we solve this problem? What are we going to do about it? And that may seem trivial, but to go from like really no public awareness about an issue to demanding change or at least trying to understand what the solutions are in just less than two decades is a really radical evolution of public awareness. When we think about some other issues, say climate change, that 40, 50 years now, there's still disagreement about why, what, how it happens. And so seeing that hunger from People to want to know how we solve the issue, what can they do is a truly motivating factor. And that's honestly why I'm still at it. It's what gives me hope, particularly my children, my two boys, 10 and 5, you know, they get a lot of the fundamentals. They live their lives in a way that I think actually makes sense. Not because I'm preaching to them, but just like, I feel like our next generation really gets it from a basic level. So those are the elements that give me hope and keep me motivated.

Yeah. Well, you talked earlier about the International Coastal Cleanup and how it's celebrating its 40th year. Why is this initiative so powerful? And how can listeners take part?

Yeah. So the International Coastal Cleanup Ocean Conservancy. We are celebrating the 40th year of this global event. Over the last four decades, more than 19 million volunteers in over 150 countries have participated to remove plastics and other debris from their beaches and waterways. And every item we pick up gets logged into a global database that we then use, along with, you know, thousands of other partners and people around the world to try and inform policies that create that lasting change that we need. And the reason it's such a critical, you know, part of the solution is because the science says it is right. The science says, yes, we have to reduce the amount of plastics we are making. We have to better manage the plastics we use. But even if we do both of those things almost perfectly, there are still going to be plastics that need cleaned up from the environment. And so by mobilizing millions of people around the world to come out, have that hands on experience, and honestly witness often the first time they might hear about plastic pollution, to actually see it or touch it connects with them and really creates a mental shift in how I would say they often see the problem from there on out. And when they go back to their daily lives, it may create them to cause them to think differently about that bag that they otherwise would have used. It may cause them to think, oh, I should be supporting that policy that my local legislature is trying to push to eliminate foam plastic takeaway containers from our city. So it is really the entry door to driving change for not just the issue of plastic pollution, but I would say the issue for ocean conservation more broadly. And anyone anywhere can Participate and visit www.signuptocleanup.org to find a cleanup that might be happening near you or wherever you are, whether on the beach, in a park hundreds of miles inland. You can download our mobile app, Clean Swell in both the App Store and on Android and that the data you collect as part of your cleanup through that app goes directly into that same global database that, again, we use to try and drive change at the local, state, federal and international levels.

This episode is part one of a special two part episode with Nicholas Malice. I hope you enjoy it. It's a really powerful episode about saving the oceans, which we all need to be concerned with.