How Safe Conversations Heal Trauma and Build Real Community | Leslie Robinson Part 1

Welcome to the Legacy All Stars podcast. We feature inspirational stories from people who dedicate themselves to helping others. Here is your host, Alan Pavloski.

Welcome to the Legacy All Stars podcast. I'm super excited today. I'm your host, Alan Pavloski. Today's guest is Leslie Robinson, founder of Transformation Games. Leslie is a solopreneur, a lifelong therapist who has spent more than 35 years working at the intersection of trauma, reintegration and community healing inside prisons, homeless shelters, crisis centers and inner city schools. With a background in social work and creative writing, Leslie recognized a universal gap. People lacked safe, structured ways to talk, process pain and connect across differences. That insight led to the creation of Transformation Games, a heart centered peer to peer dialogue tool now used in colleges, schools, prisons, military reintegration programs and communities around the world. Today we'll explore Leslie's journey, the impact of these games, and how intentional conversation can become a powerful force for healing, dignity and legacy. Leslie, welcome to the show. It's exciting to have you here.

Thank you, Alan. Thank you for this opportunity. It's so wonderful to be here. I appreciate it.

That's great. Let's jump right in and talk about your personal journey because I think that's going to play obviously a major role in where transformational games came from. When did you first realize that safe, structured conversation was missing in spaces where people were hurting?

So I started about 40 years ago working in all of these different settings. Not all at the same time, obviously, but. And I realized it right away. It just took quite some time for me to find the language for it. I was working in spaces where people were deeply hurting. Prisons and shelters and crisis centers and youth and military. And what struck me about it all wasn't lack of services, it was a lack of safe space to speak honestly, without consequence. So in all these spaces, people were surrounded by rules and by programs and professionals. But there was nowhere for any of them to be real, just to be real. I watched people carry stories of grief and shame and rage and anger and fear. But the moment they opened their mouths, they were analyzed, silenced, corrected. Well, meaning systems don't know how to hold human truth. Yeah, I think that's a global problem. That's when I understood something was missing. That there was no structure that protects vulnerability rather than punishes it. So as a society, and especially with the marginalized, we really punish any show of vulnerability, any show of emotion. I think people are scared, scared of emotion. I mean, I could talk a lot about that, but I'll stay focused on the question So I created these containers. I have 10 different healing games on the market and I'm about to come out with a lot more. And that became the foundation of my work to create these containers and safe spaces where people can be heard safely.

Yeah, speaking of that, you've worked in prisons, shelters, crisis centers and schools with all those spaces included. What human need showed up everywhere you went?

I think people are really scared to be defined by like the worst in them and the worst moments in their life and especially in these settings. Right. So I think it's the need just to be seen as the complex, flawed, full individuals that they are. I think people really want dignity and a thing that a lot of people don't experience. You know, in all these settings, there's case files and diagnoses and they're seen as problems to be fixed, not as complex human beings with complex histories. And they also, you know, I think people want connection with that hierarchy where they're not being talked at or about or in case meetings and you know, but talked with. And that, that almost never happens either. So I think really my North Star is helping people find a way to be seen, heard and valued where they don't have to armor up and where they can reconnect with who they are through this dialogue with other people and where they're valued. And then they can start valuing themselves rather than, you know, I think people psychologically start cutting themselves off when they feel like there's something wrong with them, which so many people do.

I want a follow up question to that. I mean, what is the responsibility of the person hearing the vulnerability to make sure that they allow that space for vulnerability and not judge the other that is sharing that vulnerability.

Well, I think my games create that everybody answers the same question around the circle. In all my different games, they all have different dynamics. But what is the same is everybody answers the same question. So the rule is you just speak your truth. There's no arguments and nobody ever feels a need to because it just creates that sacred place where people will hear each other's truth. They know they'll have their turn to speak their own truth. And maybe without that structure, it's very difficult. People get very judgmental. They're in their professional mode where they're just triggered to analyze and correct and do all these things. So people just want to be listened to with respect. And people are also scared, you know, that you ask a question that might bring up feelings. I hear this a lot before people will bring my games into their settings. They get really Scared when they see some of the questions. But people speak to their comfort level. They don't speak if they feel that it's uncomfortable for them. I think we can trust each other a little bit more.

Yeah, I think so too. And most people, if they're put in that situation, will likely honor the sacred kind of truth that they're supposed to be.

I mean, nothing's perfect in all these years working with tens of thousands of people. Once I saw somebody. But she needed. She knew she was in a safe space. It was a very simple question. It wasn't even a deep question. She needed that. She needed to explode. Yeah.

To share. Yeah. That brings us to Transformation Games. What inspired you to create Transformation Games? And how did your background shape the development?

So I experienced significant trauma in my childhood, Many different forms. And one of the hardest parts wasn't just what happened, but being completely alone afterwards and knowing there was no one to talk to. And especially as a child, but even as an adult, people don't feel that they can talk to people when they experience a lot of different things. So when I started designing my games, this was 15 years ago, before anybody was gamifying anything and before there were any other companies doing dialogue games except table topics. That was the only other one out there. I definitely didn't want to do anything clever or trendy. And everybody was telling me to do something simple and silly and, you know, whatever I was dying, what I needed. And I didn't do any focus groups or anything. So I figured if I. There's so many people dealing with so much that if I needed it, other people would as well. So I created them to be trauma informed, to not be too much for our nervous systems. So there's also a lot of fun in all the games. You got the keep it real game. You see all the glasses and the big fun glasses and clown's nose. So everything's also mixed in with gentle things and drawing and fun things as well as very deep questions. But to finish my answer. So my background really shaped everything from the tone of the questions to not trying to fix anything and allowing people the respect to talk about their trauma. Not to rush healing, just to make. To make room for it.

Yeah, for sure. Speaking of keep it real, thank you for my copy. It is widely used across schools, colleges, other places as well. But what makes it so effective at.

Building trust and reducing stigma so there's no pressure. Like you just open the game and when you see there's a lot of deep questions, a lot of fun things, so there's no pressure to confess or to perform. They're human. The questions are not clinical. They're just very human. They're about identity and belonging and values and life experiences and things that everybody carries. So it's good for all ages. And then because everyone answers the same question as I've shared, the hierarchies disappear. So suddenly it's not the leader in the group or the student and the teacher. It's people sitting in shared humanity.

Yeah.

And trust builds because they start to realize I'm not the only one who feels this way. When certain deeper questions come up or I don't have to pretend I'm not being judged or corrected. And then conversations happen naturally. People lean in, you know, not because they're told to, or they're supposed to, or they're in a group where they're supposed to confess, you know, but because they feel safe. They feel safe enough to. And so stigma starts to drop away. And so many people say that they've shared more than they've ever shared with anybody in their life when they're playing and nobody has to respond. I mean, it's just. You just get to share and you can feel the energy of very deep listening and that's healing in and of itself.

Why was it important that these games could be used peer to peer without requiring a therapist present?

Because healing happens in relationships, you know, pretty much even if you have a therapist. It's. Studies have shown it's really the relationship. I mean, obviously the person has to have skills, but it's really the relationship that heals. So as humans were sent the message that meaningful conversations require an expert. So there is a growing movement of peer to peer that started a few years ago, and that is growing. But this idea that you have to have an expert creates dependence and distance and especially for people who feel already marginalized or intimidated by systems, which is all the places I've worked, which is a vast number of people, and they don't feel comfortable going into a therapy office or, or being in a group. They're full of shame and so many different things. So when they sit with people with lived experience. So like I have a prison reentry game that's in about 800 prisons. That's this one right here. I also have a, a virtual one and they just sit together and they answer these questions with people who have experienced the same thing and same thing with military reintegration. This is a peer to peer, and I have a couple's version.

Oh.

Since we've been Talking about, keep it real game. And so this is used in over a thousand colleges and hundreds of high schools and boys and girls clubs and organizations. And I'll show you some more games later on. But, you know, when people sit together and they listen to one another with intention, they realize, I don't need to be fixed. I can support other people without having all the answers myself. And that my voice matters here. So people feel valued for being part of that circle. It removes the barriers of cost and access and stigma, allows conversations to happen in living rooms and dorm rooms and locker rooms, community centers, wherever. They don't replace therapy. I was in therapy for decades, and it was very necessary. So they don't replace therapy, but they extend healing into everyday life. So that really is my niche, that very little else is doing right now. And they teach people to treat one another differently. And different relationships with the people who play with each other, they have more of a respect for. For each other.

Got it?

Yeah.

I want to dovetail into your work in prisons and reintegration, because just to go back to your previous comment, you talk about the different games for different settings, and of course, there's no single solution for every person, and there's no single solution for every scenario. So I'm struck by the fact that you've created these really meaningful games for different environments. Can you share a moment of vulnerability you witnessed inside a maximum security setting?

Yeah, I've done a number of workshops. Maximum. I had the opportunity to train all the counselor supervisors at Rikers Island. And like everybody says, when they first see the game, they don't get it. Like, you have to see it in action. So when we went in and it's a structured dialogue circle, so the way it works is, well, the games have different dynamics. But in this situation I'm going to talk about now, it was 10 men. They each chose a card. There's six questions on a card. And they each chose one of the questions that they wanted everybody to engage in. So one person answered and another person answered. And then there was one man who had his arms crossed and his eyes down. And he spoke and his voice shook. And he shared that he still dreamed about the people that he hurt, not in anger, but in grief. And doesn't surprise me because I've been in these settings often, but there's so much support that the men would show each other. And nobody mocked him, and nobody shut him down, and just the room really, really held him. So that's the kind of thing that happens in these spaces because people Witness each other as human beings.

Right. That's great. You often ask participants, have you ever thrown a lifeline? What have those responses revealed to you?

That's one of the questions in the recharge game that I just held up. So that question came up. So it was drawn in that same game. So these are all men serving long sentences, and they're labeled only by their worst acts. And every moment, pretty much, they're treated as if they are their worst acts. And almost every one of them, in fact, every one of them recalled moments where they helped somebody else survive. You know, protecting a younger inmate or supporting a cellmate or stopping from someone from making a bad decision or family member. So this reveals harm in humanity can exist in the same person. And the systems never ask them about those parts of themselves. And then, you know, when they realize that they've also been a lifeline for somebody else, I think that also builds in more respect and really brings some calm into the situation. So my games, you don't need a therapist to play them. So I don't see most of the people. These games are used by hundreds of thousands of incarcerated people, so I rarely get to see the responses. But I hear that relationships really change. The impact is dramatic, and people start supporting each other rather than backstabbing each other. So just having a little humanity can make a big difference.

That brings me to my next question, and that is, how do these dialogue experiences support dignity and. And reintegration after incarceration?

By allowing people to reconnect with who they are in many different aspects rather than, you know, just their conviction or just their trauma or just their, you know, people get very identified with that, and that becomes such a large part of their identity that so many other aspects go away. And it also, as they're part of the circle, it reminds them they're. They're capable of empathy and connection and reflection and that they can be heard and they can hear other people without defensiveness. And, you know, these are muscles also they really need on the outside. So this is really not paid any attention to, for the most part in reentry programs. The need to communicate, the need to be able to listen to people and hear and have human communication. And so, so many people get out and they're not able to do that anymore because they've stopped doing that while they've been in prison. And it's a huge problem. I want to say something else about that. I think one of the most damaging aspects of incarceration is that people are not seen and that Erodes hope. And hope is really important. So being witnessed really restores hope as well. Yeah. Okay.

Let's talk about youth inclusion and bullying. It's a really important subject that everybody needs to hear about. What shifts when people of different backgrounds truly listen to one another?

So do you want to talk about bullying or do you want to talk about when people have different backgrounds? I think those are two different questions.

They are, but I think we can answer each of them one by one.

Okay. I think when people of different backgrounds really listen to each other, the first thing that starts to leave is fear. Because we just naturally fear people we see as being very different from us or think we're not going to understand. And that just brings up as a species, that just brings up a lot of fear. So when you have emotional proximity and you're hearing people's real stories and real emotions, empathy is brought forward. But bullying is a global crisis. It's really pronounced in middle and high schools, and that's globally. All schools are recognizing that as their biggest problem. There's very little to address it. I just came out with Call it out, an anti bullying game. Just finished it, just had it digitized. So that's going to launch with an organization called Humanity Rising out of Chicago in May. And we're going to have thousands of nice. It's built to be peer led, student led. So the students will run groups in their high schools and then also bring it into the middle schools, get a lot of feedback, they'll do videos. We want to create a whole movement. But bullying doesn't just stay in childhood. That's the problem. It evolves. If you grow up, being bullied or bully becomes workplace harassment, online abuse, gender violence, racism, exclusion, and systemic harm. So it's normalized really early, unfortunately, and it's becoming worse and worse. And then it teaches people cruelty is acceptable and that silence is survival. So my anti bullying work just starts with consciousness. And the Call it out games helps people name what they're seeing, understand the impact, practice speaking up safely. That's a big part of it. And recognize the role not just as targets or as perpetrators, but as witnesses. There's a whole term called upstanders now. So we're really trying to create a whole culture of upstanders. And we're not asking just why do people bully? We're asking what happens when people feel unseen, unprotected, unheard, powerless. And yeah, again, it's like the earliest way that people learn to use power, even children, to silence and dominate and erase each other. So that's pretty important.

Thank you for joining us on Legacy All Stars. Today is part one of a special two part episode with the founder of Transformation Games, Leslie Robinson. I hope you enjoy the episode.