The Bay Area Artists Keeping Creativity Alive | Kelvin Curry & Raymond L. Haywood

Welcome to the Legacy All-Stars Podcast. We feature inspirational stories from people who dedicate themselves to helping others. Here is your host, Alan Pavlosky.

All right.

Welcome back to the Legacy All-Stars Podcast. I'm your host, Alan Pavlosky. Today we have a very special episode, one that's close to my heart because it sits right at the intersection of art, community, and legacy. I'm joined by two remarkable gentlemen, both celebrated fine artists based right here in the East Bay Area, Oakland and Berkeley respectively. Kevin Currie is a painter and visual storyteller whose work has resonated across the Bay Area and beyond. Raymond L. Haywood is a fellow artist and creative force who has not only built a distinguished body of work, but has also embraced the tools of the modern era to amplify art's reach and impact. What I find extraordinary about both of these men is that they don't just create, they give back, they mentor. They pass the torch, if you will. They understand that the real legacy isn't just what you hang on the wall. It's who you help to carry the cause to another level. Calvin, Raymond, welcome to the show.

Thanks for having me, Alan.

Yeah, pleasure. All right. We're going to do a round robin on some questions, but I'll ask each of you individual questions as well. So this is a two-part, two-answer question, one from each of you. Raymond and Calvin, take us back to the beginning. What first drew each of you to the world of fine art? And what did the East Bay look like as a creative community when you were coming up? Raymond?

Yeah. Wow. It's so much to just kind of take in. But, you know, growing up in Berkeley, Telegraph Avenue, parallel being in Oakland, so Black nationalism, being around creatives, I was just in a creative space and I never thought I would become an artist, but I was very focused on creating and building and making. And at that time, there was just a lot of political upheaval. I was born in '63. It was just, you know, the environment I was in was creative and thinking. And I think my art practice is based in kind of coming up with theorems that I want trying to answer through my painting process or my sculptural process.

Mm-hmm.

Calvin? Yeah, you know, we're in the same generation. I was born also in 1963 and I grew up in East Oakland and it was a strong sense of community. I was raised by my mother and grandmother and my grandmother was a devoted, devout Christian woman. And from a very young age, she would take me to church with her. And I remember as a child being influenced by the gospel music and looking through the stained glass windows that were in the church at the time, or on, off West MacArthur. So that had a huge impact on my creativity. And also as a kid, I was always reading comic books. I was a big Superman and Batman fan. So I would draw comics on paper as a kid. And my grandmother and mom, they took notice of my creativity, so they kind of pushed me. So for me, it was a pretty early decision. Even when I look back at my grammar school, all my marks, my grades that I got were all— I always excelled in arts. So it was an easy decision. And also community. And you start— I would walk to school, home to school, back and forth. And it was a community. Everybody knew my mom. My teachers lived in the community. My principal was a friend of my mother's and it was, it was really connected. That's kind of where it started for me. It was community, family, and music. It was a combination of things.

Lots of influences that were positive. And this is kind of what the show talks about is that both of you are now mentors and influencers to others that are trying to follow in your footsteps. So that's a great segue. Kelvin, you've spoken about how artists like Ernie Barnes and others in Los Angeles shaped your vision. Can you talk about the mentors who helped you see the path forward and how that experience stays with you? Yeah.

Uh, I met Ernie Barnes back in the early '90s at a group show called the Artist Salute to Black History Month. And during that time, it was like the largest exhibition of African American artists west of the Mississippi. And they had the established artists and the legendary artists, which Ernie Barnes was at the time, in a separate area, but we're all in one plaza. And I can remember as a young artist looking down, we were on the top level, all the emerging artists were up top. So we could look over the rail at the other artists that were established and well-known. And I remember looking at their work and, uh, talking to them and getting advice, seeing their work in television shows. You know, you'd see like the Cosby Show was big back then and you'd see Arnett Honeywood's piece on the wall in the Cosby Show. You'd watch the Fresh Prince of Bel-Air and you see Paul Goodnight's work in the Wall, and all those artists were also in the show in LA. So that was a powerful influence. I saw where they went with their art, so it gave me hope that I could actually make a living as an artist.

Did they personally take you under their wing at all and give you some advice?

One artist did, Nathaniel Bustian, who lived in Altadena, and he studied under— I can't think of his name right now. Uh, who's the famous artist from the Harlem Renaissance? Charles White. Charles White was his mentor. And this group's exhibition was 12 days long. For 12 days, Nathaniel talked to me every day for 12 hours for 12 days straight.

Amazing.

Yeah.

I, I remember telling him that I was so honored to be in the show with him that I didn't really, it didn't matter to me if I sold a piece or if anybody said it, cuz just the, just being next to him was just enough for me.

Yeah. What a great privilege.

Let me just add this. My mother-in-law at the time, was a collector. She had the biggest collection of Black greeting cards that I'd ever seen. And that was like big because I'd never seen greeting cards that were done by African American artists until I met her.

So that was big.

Yeah, that's great. Raymond, you've navigated the art world across multiple decades. What do you think has changed most about the East Bay art scene over that time and what has stayed beautifully the same?

Well, I'd, I'd start with Oakland was a real creative space that I really cut my teeth. Laney College. I was— lived at the Vulcan Foundry for a decade. It felt like you had more access to artists, you had more access to peers. When I went to Lady College in '85, '86, David Bradford was a teacher there, pretty esteemed and established, and he mentored me a little bit. Also, San Francisco had a lot of artists, you know, there was a really wild art scene, so you could go to the city, you could see things. Oakland had a lot of different art, Berkeley had different things, and it felt like there was this triad for me to kind of explore. That isn't as accessible or isn't— I think the artists have been priced out of the Bay Area now. So they're going to Vallejo, they're going to these different places. And once you lose kind of mobility to get to the artists, you lose that community. And I think, you know, the art of the African diaspora is pretty amazing. We had our 29th show. A lot of the artists had been together, you know, we've been together and now we're the elders and we're trying to lead these other artists into it. And I really, my main message in this opportunity to be on the podcast would be, Talk to the artists in your community at all levels. Encourage people with a positive word. If you have some negativity, keep it to yourself because we're all vulnerable when we start. We're all vulnerable. I'm vulnerable here. So, you know, just try and keep— pass it forward, pay it ahead.

Well, this question is for both of you. What does the greater East Bay and specifically Oakland mean to each of you as a place that shaped your art and your identity? And Raymond, you kind of gave a little bit of an answer to that already. So let me go to Kelvin on this one.

Like I mentioned earlier, just being in the community back When I was young, Oakland was really, really colorful. For example, my high school, I went to Castlemont High School and I was class of '81. And at that time, there was so much talent in my high school. It was unbelievable. There was Dwyane Wiggins who played with Tony, Tony, Tony. There was a Castilleros Choir that was singing at the White House. Sports, there were a number of athletes that were going off to college and getting scholarships. That was big. And then also there was a sense of style and there was a sense of grit being in East Oakland. For example, my, my, I have a brother, he passed away, but he was almost 2 years my junior. We grew up in the same household, but totally different identities. And he would, he would, he had his own separate identity. I had mine. His friends were still my friends. My friends were still his friends. So socially, we still had this connection, even though we were all individual. That helped me develop my own identity and my style as an artist. That was part of it. And I've seen, seen East Oakland change, just being part of the community and watching it change from the '60s the '70s, the '80s, all these different, different changes in the community. And, and my art just went right along with it.

Yeah. Let's shift gears a little bit and talk about art as social impact, cuz that's a really big topic. Both of you create with intention. How do you think about art as a vehicle for social change and what responsibility comes with having that kind of influence? Raymond, let's go with you first.

Okay. You know, I think as a young artist, I was working with beauty as my kind of focal point. And then as I've experienced life in the United States, I feel like I'm a product of California, Southern California. I realize that creating something that has your own voice is really a political act. When you have an opportunity to share with people, then the artist has a responsibility to be ethical, share integrity, even if the message is controversial. And I think about that along with the evolution of your ideas change. I was a graphic artist initially, and now I'm doing abstract work. And in that process, for me, it's really the process of making that's like theology. I relate it to theology. I relate it to a practice. This is very calming. And I think the social aspect that I want to kind of empower people is that art is available to everyone if you take an opportunity to kind of get some knowledge.

Yeah. Calvin?

As far as my art, I don't consider myself a political artist. I'm more of a, on the spiritual side. In my opinion, as far as my art is concerned, it seems like for me that change starts with the man in the mirror. You know, I'm, I'm quoting Michael Jackson. It's funny cuz the movie is out now, but to take from him, um, the change starts in the mirror.

Yeah.

The change starts at home. So as an artist, I'm just recording my human experience in how I've changed and evolved. And hopefully that comes through in my art that is transparent, it's authentic. It will resonate with others, that the change starts with you.

Yeah. Let me ask you a follow-up question, then I'll ask Raymond the same question. Can you share a specific piece of your work or a moment in your career where you felt your art made a real difference in someone's life or their outlook? Calvin, you wanna start on that one? Yeah.

Just recently, I just did a, a group show at Women's Cancer Resource Center, and a couple of patrons were in the reception and they came to me and was telling me how much my art had touched them and how they, they understood what I was saying. And, um, cuz these pieces, the pieces that I had in In this particular exhibition, I wrote quotes in there. Sometimes I'll write a quote from a philosopher, from a spiritual leader, and I'll include that in the art because I'll see a connection in it. And this series was called Compartmentalization, and it's— I've used it as a coping mechanism to journey through life. And the people that were at the art show, they kind of picked up on it and said, wow, this really touched me and moved me. Thank you for showing this. I love when that happens. It happened there. It happened at another artist talk at the Hercules Library, and I got approached by two women there also saying how my art touched them and how they were moved by it.

That's great. Raymond, do you have a story that would be relevant for that?

Definitely. I was invited by my best friend, Mark Harris. He curated a show at the San Francisco Arts Commission in 2023, I believe, on— and the subject was James Baldwin. And just the invitation to kind of consider that amazing artist. One of my abstract sculptures was related to Strange Fruit and the whole nexus of lynchings. So I made this abstract piece. I think the ceilings were like 3 stories and it really hung down. And then I had a wall didactic which talked about it. And I had a lady come up. I had a number of people come up. And after they read the didactic, one lady was weeping just in the context of the narrative that I'd shared. And, you know, then I guess she came in naive to the piece. You know, she saw these hanging things and then when it gave it, you know, there's like a, I don't know, a transfer of the emotions of how impactful that history is, and then you see this artwork that was related to it. And that was really moving to me that I could come up with an idea and make these physical things that would, you know, not intentionally make someone cry, but hopefully have an effect. And it did, you know, that was pretty moving.

I mean, any emotional response is powerful, but bringing somebody to tears just definitely speaks to the power of your medium. Raymond, you embrace social media and technology as tools to amplify artists' reach and impact, not to create art, but get it into the world. What have you learned from that? And what would you tell younger artists about the balance?

You know, it was funny when computers kind of, I don't remember when I got my first Apple, but I literally spent 3 months with it in the box. I was afraid of it. And now I just engage AI and I use it to tailor words so that they're more acceptable. I use it to research ideas. I've kind of gone down the rabbit hole. Of, you know, what does this mean and what does that mean? And I could just quickly get content and then speak with people in the community. I think the technology is, to me it's abundance, but it's also learning how to use it. Kind of like the brain. I don't know what the saying is, the percentage of my brain that I use, but I think technology, AI, all those things are tools. And if we shy away from them, then we're, we're not empowered. So I think it's, it's a huge responsibility to try and get as much knowledge as you can. About these different things. And if it doesn't work for you, then you move to something else. But I think the language of technology is the language of today, and we can't be outside of it.

Yeah, well said. Thank you. Let's talk about mentorship and the next generation. We know you're both deeply involved in mentoring young artists. What does that mentorship look like in practice, and how do you show up for the next generation? Raymond, you can start.

Okay. You know, it's interesting you asked about mentorship. I've hosted a number of artist salons, and that could be taken loosely. I had this one that initially started is, it was called Invisible Atelier. It was African American men, and then it included African American women, and that was about professional development. That went on for about 3 years. We had some exhibitions that were really successful, and some of the younger artists really grew. And then January 2026, I was thinking about questions, and I was thinking about community, especially in these political times. How do I meet new people? How do I get myself out there? So I've established the WY Salon. Which happens once a month and anyone can host. I have artists that I know in the community. They can be bakers, musicians. So I asked them, if you were going to host Alan, you could contextualize, you know, 20 to 30 minutes. We meet and greet, people talk. The last one was at the Point Richmond Art Gallery, and the gallerist didn't really say too much. You know, she didn't have a lot to say, but to me, mentorship is inclusion and accessibility. And I want to always present a professional persona that allows for that, that people can come up and talk to me, that I'm not, you know, high and mighty, et cetera. Wherever I show, I want to be accessible to people.

Yeah. Calvin?

Yeah. To piggyback on Raymond, he's right. Accessibility, you know, and just communicating with them and just being there. This past our reception at Richmond Arts Center, I mean, we had a ton of new artists and I made it a point to, you know, check out the new exhibitions and meet some of these new artists because they need to know what it is and what we've been and what we've done and the history behind it and the connections to other artists and the ones that have passed on. You know, we have the history to pass on to them and they have the technology and the technical savvy part and they're into social media and they know how to connect and all this stuff on Instagram. They know how to do all these things. And the elders like Raymond and I, just by us being there, communicating with them, sharing with them our journey, how we put it together and what we've done and where we're going and that we're still here.

Yeah.

So yeah. So I would say sharing and communicating, observation, participation.

Yeah. I had a prior episode that featured Don Reed, a friend of mine in Oakland, you know, and a lot of the same subject matter came up with him about the contributions that he's making through different community organizations to help artists get the opportunity to participate in the art scene. Not just in fine art, but in performing arts, et cetera. What do you see amongst young artists now in the Bay Area and what gives you hope and what keeps you up at night in that same subject line, Raymond?

You know, there was a, there was a talk at, I forget the name of the, so the Point Richmond Library had artist satellite show and I met a young lady there and her work was very dynamic and she was very colorful. And then artists at this, I think it was called Kilowatt, a coffee shop. Just seeing people really be out here in a different way on social media, TikTok, it feels like there's no limits. And when I was discovering, you know, what is an artist and how do you move and how do you present, it didn't seem that wide open. And now it seems like there's no limits, which is kind of my foundational aspect of art. I think there's no rules in art. And to see people really embracing that and sharing, especially the diversity of the artists of the African diaspora. You can see sculpture, you can see drawing, you can see painting, you can— there was one award— awardee that was wearing like this Egyptian stuff and his work was just fire. I just, you know, like the ideas. So anytime I see new work, that gives me hope that people are investing in sharing their true voice and not a voice that's kind of conditioned by society's construct.

I love that. That's great. Kelvin.

Yeah. Uh, also Raymond, I don't know if you noticed that one guy, I can't think of his name, but he was in the, in the show also. And he had this pack of Newports that he enlarged.

Right, right, right.

I thought that was amazing. Yeah. I was like, that is really great. I wouldn't think to take an everyday object like a cigarette wrapper and then put an illustration with it. So when I see things like that, I'm inspired. I'm like, yeah, okay. Okay. They're pushing the envelope, you know, they're doing experimentation is where it is. Yeah, it's a beautiful thing to watch.

You mentioned this already, Kelvin, and I'm gonna delve a little bit further into this, but for both of you, is there a young artist who you've worked with and mentored that whose growth has genuinely moved you? And what did that experience teach you as much as them? Raymond, you wanna go first on that one? Sure.

Sharkta Norcom is a friend and he approached me when I was at American Steel Studios under Steven Bruce. We were having an Art of the African Diaspora talk and Stephen said if anybody had questions, Arthur was the only one that raised his hand and I had offered, you know, if you want to talk to me. So he came up and I didn't know I was going to mentor him, but in our friendship, you know, he would ask questions, he'd come to my studio. Now he has a practice in Berkeley as well. It's, I think mentorship is really kind of a circle. I have some knowledge, we bounce ideas, I challenge him with professional aesthetics and different things. He does watercolor. He's more of a graphic artist, you know, his whole process is more direct and planned and mine is the complete opposite. And it's just been inspiring. I can take on some of his practice. He can share in mine. And, you know, the respect that he has for my time, it kind of throws me sometimes cuz he'll be like, well, you have, you have all this knowledge. And I'm like, well, I'm older and we have more knowledge together than just me by myself. And it really ignites my creativity to be in community. And I've learned that after 5 years of being a high school teacher, all the young minds, to be in community at 63 with 14 to 18-year-olds is kind of surreal because what their focus is, is not what I grew up with and trying to be inclusive and empathetic with the world that they're living in now in relation to how it affects me as a creative and person. African American male, you know?

Yeah.

Yeah, for sure. Calvin, do you have a story of somebody you've been partnered with or mentored or have witnessed from a younger generation that has really grown or inspired you or moved you?

There's one artist, I hope I'm getting his name right. I think his name is Cairo. He goes by Cairo.

Yeah.

And he does, he does these collages and it reminds me of Romare Bearden. And when I met him, that's the first thing I said to him. And then to see his face light up, to see me connect his work with an artist from the Harlem Renaissance, let him know that I get I get what he's doing and I understand that he's going somewhere. You know, I let him know that you're on a path, man, and you're on the right path. I don't know where you're going, but I can tell you're moving, which is the biggest part of being an artist is to keep growing. Anything doesn't grow dies. So long as you keep it moving, your art will thrive and grow with it. So he asked me about what I was doing when I was his age. And I remember telling him when I was, I told him, and he used to, the look on his face, I said, when I was your age, he's about early 30s, and I told him, when I was your age, I was doing 40 shows a year. And he was like, 40 shows? Because there's only 52 weekends in a year. And I was, yeah, mostly every weekend I was somewhere. And, uh, so just telling him that, hey, you just gotta, you gotta get out there, man. I know that young people are into the internet and, you know, putting their things on the internet. I get that. But I was trying to let him know that we're still As humans, we're still social creatures and people want to be around you. They want to feel your energy other than just looking at it on a computer screen. I encourage them as a young artist, man, don't leave no stone unturned. You know, show your work everywhere and anywhere you can, cuz you never know who's gonna see it. You don't know what you're gonna get from certain venues. And, uh, I just told him, you know, some of my stories of how I got into certain shows and he was like, okay. You know, he, things we hadn't thought about, you know?

Yeah.

Like I did a lot of outside festivals for years and those outside festivals got me into shows that I never wouldn't have got into had I just knocked on the door, you know? I did a group show at Stanford University just from being at a show in San Carlos on the sidewalk. I got a solo show at HP way back in 1999 just because I was doing something in San Jose that somebody saw me.

Yeah. That personal touch is so important. I mean, you know, as an artist of some sort, a musical artist myself, but also as a lover of all kinds of art, I'm inspired by touching and feeling and being a part of the conversation with artists. And I think that really helps corroborate your point is that, yeah, I'm not a fine artist. I have a, what I joke around as a drawing disability, but, uh, I admire people that have that skill, but just be able to connect on a personal level with people that are creating that art is just really powerful. Yeah. Let's talk about staying in the game, cuz that's a very big battle for experienced artists, for younger artists, and it's not easy to make a living in art. So it can be incredibly challenging financially, emotionally, logistically. How did each of you stay in the game through the difficult seasons? And what advice do you give artists who are struggling to keep going? Raymond?

Wow.

I was fortunate enough. I got to go to undergrad at UC San Diego, met a lot of artists that were conceptual and graduated with no portfolio. Realized I need to figure out how to make art, apprentice as a carpenter. So parallel occupation, I had a job that paid as a carpenter and became a fine home builder and made my art practice. I had the good fortune of doing an independent study with the late Faith Ringgold at UC San Diego, and that kind of blew my mind. I had a couple other established artists there. I think you have to figure out what your what is. Or what your why is, and explore a lot of different media until you come to a place where, for me, painting and making marks is really essential. When I got married in 2014, I articulated to my wife that art is really important to me and practicing the art and making the art and showing the art and sharing that is really essential to my being. When COVID hit, I will honestly say that I was confused. I thought I should give up my art. I mean, I just, I think it was probably, you know, really challenging for a lot of people, but instead I dove in. I was fortunate enough to have a studio and I applied my tradescraft in that I was working 60-hour weeks on painting and I really grew. It was a rare time that I had that. So I think the one thing I'd share with— two things: get access to other artists, people that are passionate about the arts and maybe what you do. Be clear that the relationships are the foundation of your professional career. If you lack integrity, you're dishonest, that taints your whole opportunity to be in the world. You get one opportunity to show up, you get one opportunity to follow through. And my thing is to leave people better when I leave them than when I met them.

Yeah. Kelvin?

Yeah. In addition to what Raymond said, he, he pretty much nailed it, you know, just stay creative, stay connected, and keep going, you know, and, and be prolific. I mean, most of the artists that I've ever seen that were successful, they, they created a lot of work, you know, no matter rough times or bad times, you can see, you don't stop creating.

Yeah.

It really is. Art really is a numbers game. I think a lot of artists don't understand that. It really is. And Raymond, you probably can relate to this.

Yeah.

I mean, look, look at Picasso, for example, you know, he created what, almost 50,000 pieces and probably less than 200 are considered masterpieces. So, so that means he's creating nonstop.

Uh, one thing I, I had the good fortune, or I decided to get a terminal degree in art. So I got my MFA and the professors initially said, 99% of you are gonna stop doing art after you get this degree. And that really hit me that people would invest in a degree and then stop. And then I saw people stop. And you have all these art people that it's passionate. Somehow, if you lose your fire, then you're done. But you gotta keep that fire just tended in the most private way. And to me, when I realized I had some talent, then I, I really felt like I had pressure to honor the talent and I didn't know how. So just practicing allows me to hopefully honor the talent in what I'm making. Hopefully honors the time and the people that wanna look at it.

Yeah.

Yeah. It's interesting you mentioned those people that got the degrees, uh, Raymond. That's, that's interesting because it's really the discipline and it's the consistency. Talent is common. A lot of people have talent, you know what I mean? And people don't understand it. It's, it's the people that are consistent and the people that have the discipline are the ones that really make it the long run.

Right.

So yeah, I interview lots of people on this show and that's a common theme. I mean, no matter what you're doing, whether it's a business coach, whether it's an athlete, anybody that commits themselves to their craft and stays long enough to see the fruits of their labor will typically succeed. But a lot of times you see people just give up right before they're getting ready to hit. And that's the tragedy of it. Let's talk about legacy because this is Legacy All-Stars and we'd like to talk about legacy on this show. When you think about the word legacy, what do each of you, what do you want people to say about you, about your contribution to the Bay Area, to art, to the artists who came after you? Raymond, can you go first on that?

Yeah, I think the primary thing after having the talk at Joyce Gordon and being with these people like Kelvin that were foundational to my practice and history is, is fearless. I hope that I'm fearless in my creativity in putting myself out. The confidence that I exude is a learned situation. My first show, I was standing in the corner. Super nervous, didn't want to talk. Also for my nieces and nephews, my great nieces and nephew, the work that I'm working on now is not for me. It's a potential legacy for them to commodify, to live with. Just hopefully that people are present with how passionate I am about art and that I really wanted to bring joy with my art and hopefully get people to laugh a little bit.

Alan?

Yeah, that's good, Raymond.

Yeah, I want people to say, hey, you know, that dude was, he was dedicated, man, and he was rooted in the community. I mean, he started one place and ended up another place. And, um, hopefully it brings, you know, joy and happiness to people's lives. I had a friend of mine, just to give you an example, who bought some pieces from me years ago, and his family moved from the Bay Area to Atlanta. And he called me and said, man, uh, we moved to Atlanta. I wanna show you something. And he sent me a picture of his living room and he had 3 of my pieces, 2 of my pieces hanging in his living room. Pieces that I forgot I even did. And I'm like, yeah, I remember those pieces. What was interesting is that he didn't show me the furniture in his house or the outside or, you know, anything like that. He just, he wanted to show me the wall where the work was. So that, it just kind of touched me. I got a little bit emotional because I'm like, wow, no matter how we, you know, people move through our life, if they connect with your artwork, you become a part of their life.

Right. Right.

We change, we change homes, we change cars, furniture, but the art stays.

Yeah.

It's like when I'm dead and gone, man, somebody look at a piece and be like, man, I remember that dude.

Yep. Good point. You know, for someone listening right now, who's sitting on the sidelines of their creative calling, afraid to commit, afraid to fail, what would you say directly to them? Kelvin, why don't you start this one first?

There is no failure in art. Can't fail. There is no failure. The only failure is if you don't start, you know what I'm saying? It's like, you just gotta do it. Take the jump, take the leap.

Yeah.

And if you, if you true to your craft, if you're authentic, if you're transparent, if you believe in what you're doing, it's the same stuff we've all heard, you know, take the shot. So, and even if you miss, take another shot. You just keep going. So that's what I tell young people. You gotta find your tribe. You know, some people might think your art is weird. Other might think it's the best thing since sliced bread.

Yeah.

But you never know if you never start.

Yeah, for sure. Raymond?

I have a simpler, a simpler approach when I talk to people. Give me 5 minutes, you know, take out some crayons, take out a piece of paper. I think a lot of people have fear about them being perceived as artists or their work being judged. And my work comes from play. It's a practice that's based in joy and play. I'm not happy all the time when I'm making work, but when I meet people, I'm like, hey, you know, you could go to Blick and get a pad and get some pens and just set your timer for 5 minutes. I bet they're going to do something for 20 minutes. You don't have to do it every day, but you've started. I think the first step is just allowing yourself to make, you know, do you want to write? Do you want to knit? Just give yourself permission to do that. Don't tell anybody and see where it goes. So play, I think play is the most essential kind of social-emotional skill that we get kind of beaten out of us as adults. We're so serious about being successful and accomplished. And I think what I realize— I have a 5-and-a-half-year-old great nephew, and when I see him, the joy that he has is a joy that is reflected to me. And he wants to play. He wants me to get on the ground and wrestle with him. He wants me to look at him. And I think when I meet people and they see my art, if I can inject that joy into them, this is play, you know? And you're often asked, like, I forget the thing, how do you make money? You know, the money is not the goal in being an artist for me. The professionalism, the aesthetic being tight, just, I want it to be right for me. And then if I get an opportunity to show it, that's, that's out of my control, you know? And if the piece is gonna move somebody, that's out of my control too. I'm just the messenger. I'm not the message.

A good answer.

Well, this has been a real pleasure. We're going to share your contact information and of course tag you on everything with the reels we create on the show. But it's been a real pleasure talking to you both about this. It's very meaningful for me to contribute to artists being recognized for their talents and their skills and their contribution to an area of our society that's not prevalent enough at this point. And we need to get back to celebrating artists. So thank you both for coming on the show. What you've shared today is a reminder that legacy is never built alone. It's built through the people who believed in you, through the communities that shaped you, and through the artists courageous enough to bring along for the ride. The Bay Area is lucky to have you both, and the young artists in your orbit are luckier still. So thank you both very much.

Thank you, Alan. Really appreciate the opportunity.

Yeah, thanks a lot. I appreciate it, Alan. Thanks a lot.

Oh, it's totally my pleasure. I'm Alan Pavlosky, and this has been another episode of the Legacy All-Stars Podcast, where we celebrate those who use their success, their gifts, and their hard-won wisdom to make the world a better place. See you next time.