Why Athletes Choke Under Pressure (And How Champions Respond) | Dr. Haley Perlus

Welcome to the Legacy All-Stars Podcast. We feature inspirational stories from people who dedicate themselves to helping others. Here is your host, Alan Pavlosky.

Welcome back to the Legacy All-Stars Podcast, where we spotlight remarkable people committed to making the world a better place through their work, their service, and their impact. I'm your host, Alan Pavlosky. Today's guest has dedicated her career to unlocking the full potential of the human mind in sport, in business, and in life. Dr. Haley Perles holds a PhD in sports psychology and brings a rare combination. She's a former elite alpine ski racer who competed at the world championship level, a professor, a bestselling author, and a performance consultant to some of the most recognized organizations on the planet, including NASA, the US Air Force, ESPN, and Marriott International, which is a mouthful. There's a, that's a lot of impressive contacts. Her philosophy is simple and powerful: perform with heart, win with mind. Haley, welcome to Legacy All-Stars.

Thanks, Alan, so much for having me. And I love the fact that you found that, you know, perform with heart, win with mind.

Love that. I extracted that from some things I'd seen that you had said, and I just love that philosophy.

Thank you. It's actually a funny story about behind that.

Yeah, tell me.

Kind of thanks to AI, I was doing a lot of inputting and researching, and I just had this friend who had done this and I wanted to do it. And I asked ChatGPT, to take everything that is written about me or shown online, because that being online and social media is one of my biggest mental blocks that I had to overcome. And so I asked ChatGPT to create an illustration of what it knows about me online with my life and values and work. And it gave me this beautiful image of this girl with a ponytail, kind of athletic, standing on a rock with a mountain in the background and a lake. And then it said, perform with heart. Win with mine. So I didn't come up with it, but I feel like I was the creator of it and that has stayed with me. So now I use it.

That's beautiful. That's great use of AI. I think people using AI for the purpose of kind of taking their content that they have created and encapsulating it into a really digestible form is really powerful. So that's a really cool story. You know, it's funny because I had similar situations. I've never been a behind-the-camera kind of person until I started this podcast. I was always— did public speaking and I've done other things. And I worked with athletes for 30 years plus, you know, working with them to make sure they were the feature. And I was definitely reticent before I started the show on whether to make it a video podcast or whether to only do audio. But I really found that connecting with the guest is much more powerful in the video form. So that's something I had as a similar experience.

I couldn't agree more.

Yeah, for sure. Let's jump in. I really want to get into the weeds with you here on some of the things you're doing that are so powerful. Take us back to the starting gate, literally, because you were a competitive alpine ski racer before becoming a sports psychologist. What did that experience teach you about the mental game that you couldn't have learned in any other way?

Not only it taught me about mental toughness, it basically showed me that I wanted to be a sports psych gal. When I was 12 years old, I was competing in the Juvenile World Championships. And the quick story is right before I was about to compete, my coach pulled out a $100 bill, placed it in front of my face, and told me that he had bet on me to win. And so in that moment, we're at a fork in the road mentally and emotionally. I'm either going to feel real angry at him, anxious, scared about what's to come, worried, afraid, or I'm going to feel challenged and passionate and competent. If my coach believes in me, doesn't that mean I'm doing something right? And in that moment, I remember thinking, wow, my coach has high expectations. Why shouldn't I believe in myself if he believes in me? So I tell you the story because it has a good ending. I won, but my coach came down, congratulated me. And even though he kept the money for himself, he said to me, it's amazing what your performance can be when you get your head straight. And then 2 weeks later, he brought a sports psychologist to come and speak to my team. And back then that wasn't really common. I just thank him so much for— I don't believe he would have put that pressure on me if he hadn't already trained me to embrace pressure. And then having this sports psychologist come and speak to us, I put the two together and I went home at 12 and I told my parents that I wanted to be a sports psych out when I grew up. So since then, every time I feel pressure, I've always been someone who thrives in it because I know the power it can give us. I know the invitation it's giving us.

Yeah, that story is really powerful for me. And one of my favorite sayings in life is, when the student is ready, the teacher will appear. And it seems that your teacher appeared right at the right moment and that the student was actually ready to receive that information. So that's a great story.

Very true. I was ready and eager. And then similar to you, because we've been sharing a little about ourselves, you know, I loved— I was good. I was on the podium and I was and still am athletic, but I always had these daydreams. Of helping other people put medals around their necks, whether it was a sports medal, business medal, you know, achieving their fitness goals. And I know that for you, you want to help impact others. So that's always been in me. And I think I just fell in love with the mindset piece. And so putting those two together, here I am.

Yeah. That's amazing. You built your career by going where the competition wasn't, creating sports psychology programming in spaces that didn't have it yet. How did that entrepreneurial mindset shape your journey?

Yeah, it's kind of funny. I think I took more of a trailblazing approach. And I probably learned that from maybe my father who was just, you know, he started his own business and just, I don't know that we ever had these conversations. So maybe it was just observing and modeling. And I did get my, well, I was actually still doing my PhD, but I was a group fitness instructor and indoor cycle instructor. And my eyes were on these fitness conferences. And so when I started feeling ready to go and public speak and ready to go and teach, instead of going where all the competition was, which was the sport conferences and the sports psychology conferences, because I had this interest in fitness and wellness, I went to the fitness and wellness conferences and they didn't have sports psychology. So I just asked if I could bring motivation, if I could bring arousal control, if I could bring leadership to those conferences. And then with regards to becoming a professor in sports psychology, I didn't call up the schools, the universities that already had sports psych, I called the schools that did not, and I asked if they would be interested in having an elective sports psychology class. And I was fortunate enough that, you know, one in particular was interested in it. And so I, I kind of looked where the competition wasn't and I created a path.

Yeah. It's the old baseball saying, hit them where they ain't, right? Right.

There you go.

I want to shift gears a little bit and talk about your approach to the mental game and really get into the granular detail about how you positively affect others and their mental performance. You talk about embracing pressure as a performance enhancer rather than a threat. For the athlete or business leader who tightens up in high-stakes moments, what's the first mental shift they need to make?

To change their story about pressure. The anxiety, which would be the perceived threat, the anxiety can help and create— and I'll do it physically, I'm really tensing my body— can create us to contract. And what that does is freezes our operational skills. Whether they're mental or whether they're physical, whether you're a sport or a business person, right? So they just, everything contracts and it's like, it's almost like you choke, you get cut off. And so there's no mind-body connection. The body doesn't know what to do. The mind doesn't know where to think. If we embrace it as a challenge, if we embrace it as an invitation. So another slogan, if you will, or quote that I'm working with now is pressure is not the enemy. Pressure is the invitation. And for anyone to sit down and say, okay, why do I feel pressure? What is it inviting me to do? Now we're embracing more of an expression of our operational skills instead of a contraction. And if you're feeling pressure— well, actually, I take that back. Sometimes we're putting unnecessary negative pressure on ourselves, asking too much too quickly. So let's calm down. Let's slow it down. But on the flip side, maybe you are ready for this new level, ready for this new goal, ready for this new promotion, ready, ready, ready. And so what is pressure inviting you to do? Well, it's inviting me to feel confident. It's inviting me, you know, make that step forward to see what else I'm capable of. It's inviting you to realize how much you care, realize how much you want this. So that's what I believe when it comes to pressure being a performance enhancer. And if we do look at athletes, The best athletes are not always the greatest competitors. It's not just about being a good athlete. You gotta be a good competitor. Competition is where the pressure is. And the greatest competitors probably compete better than they practice because they embrace the pressure of that competitive environment.

Yeah. The moment is never too big for those that can handle channeling that pressure, but there are people that you see in sport, in life that crumble under that pressure. And I think that's a really astute observation about how people respond to those, those pressures in life.

And I will say it's not about being perfect. The best performers in the world, do they feel anxious? Absolutely. Do they have this tug of war between threat and challenge? Absolutely. But more often than not, they know how to work through it, embrace it, accept it, and focus in on the task at hand.

Yeah. Well, you know, I've had those situations where I've, in my past, I felt a little paralyzed by things that I've kind of integrated a mantra into what is well-known saying. I didn't make this up, but perfection is the enemy of the good. And I think if we are all focused on taking action and utilizing what is good rather than what is perfect, then we get a better outcome.

Perfect is really the greatest way to hold ourselves back.

Yeah. Let's talk about mental toughness. What is mental toughness really? And why do you believe it's a trainable skill rather than something you either have or don't have?

Alan, I look at mental toughness— well, I'll be honest. I really don't like the term. It's not about being tough all the time. Mental toughness is showing up even though you don't want to. Mental toughness is accepting that there's going to be some discomfort, maybe even some pain. Mental toughness does not mean you always have to be confident, right? So just accepting that there's going to be some mental, emotional, and physical discomfort. And mental toughness is willing to endure, endure that discomfort, not just accept that it is, but like ready to like, you almost want it. That's what I think mental toughness is. And mental toughness is not also— so you're asking me what mental toughness is and I'm kind of telling you, but then also telling you what it isn't. Mental toughness is not always being positive because it's okay to be negative. I can have negative thoughts and still consider myself to be mentally tough. It's allowing yourself to feel all the emotions. Doesn't mean you're mentally weak, you know, but it is— mental toughness is about being able to reset.

Yeah. Yeah. Part of being in the moment is being willing to be vulnerable and being honest with yourself at those tough moments. But too many people think that mental toughness is being macho and putting this front on. And I think your point is well taken that it doesn't have to be— it doesn't have to look like a certain thing. It doesn't have to look like you know, flexing your muscles and puffing your chest out to make it look like you're false bravado, but really focusing on allowing yourself to be in the moment and feel what's really going on is really powerful.

Yeah. And it's that reset you talked about, you know, perfect is the enemy of good. You know, to be honest, I strive to be perfect in everything I do. And I think that's okay, but I don't demand perfection because I know it's unrealistic. So I strive for perfection, but I also strive to be the best recoverer I can be instead Sports, the best athletes are not the perfect athletes, they're the ones that best recovered when they had the, you know, in those split moments. And so that's what I think mental toughness is too, in business, in life, and obviously in athletics, striving for perfection, but also knowing I'm ready to recover from any mistakes or any setbacks that I may have.

Yeah. You developed what you call the Peak Performance Triad. I'm fascinated by this subject. I really want to hear more about it. It talks about competence, capacity, and culture. Can you break that down and how it applies beyond sport?

Sure. So competence is, you know, well, you mentioned, is mental toughness a skill? Yes, it is. And I believe that we can develop motivation. I think we all have the ability to be motivated and there are ways to figure that out. I believe that we all can develop confidence and that's a skill. Concentration, that's a skill. Anxiety, emotional regulation, that's a skill. And those are all our mental and emotional competencies. Now, in order for us to let those skills out and be operational, we need to have energy. And energy is our capacity. And so our physical energy, our emotional energy, our mental energy, and our spiritual energy, that's our capacity. If we don't have the energy, then how can we think a certain way? How do we change our emotions? How do we get ourselves to get our bodies up and out and go for that exercise routine? How do we show up and have a board meeting, you know, ready to deliver and real focused if we don't have the energy to do so? So that's the capacity. And then the third piece is really having that, you know, we don't do anything alone. We're always a team. So it's the group dynamics and it's the harmony, it's the culture and it's the climate and it's navigating and communicating with each other and negotiating.

Yeah. The culture part is so underlooked sometimes, right?

We're getting better at it, I believe. I think it's actually becoming a popular topic. At least I'm seeing that and I'm actually partnering with culture experts. To bring some of this work to executives, for example.

Yeah, I want to talk about another one of your concepts that's really fascinating to me. Your Optimum Energy Flow program is used by elite organizations worldwide. What is optimal energy flow and why is managing energy more important than managing time?

And that's something that I learned from my mentors, and it's a company, Evolve Leadership, that I partner with, and we really embrace this concept, which is the time versus energy. If it's okay, I'll go there first.

Yeah, please.

And I'll just ask a very open-ended question to everyone who's listening and watching. Think of a moment in your life where you didn't have a lot of time to get something done, but a lot of energy. What was the result? What was the experience? Not a lot of time, but a lot of energy. We're productive. We get things done. We focus in. And when you compare that to a moment where you have a ton of time to do something, but not a lot of energy. What's the outcome? What's the experience? Well, we binge. We don't take action until we wait until the last minute when we don't have a lot of time and then we create the energy. So when we're looking about peak performance, of course time management is important. I'm not dismissing that, but you cannot best manage your time if you don't first best manage your energy. Energy is the only resource that we actually have 100% control over. So first let's create the energy and maintain it. And then use that energy to best manage our time. So that's with the energy versus time. The optimum energy flow is something that I created because in my education and my experience, of course, I'm a psych person. So I look at our thoughts. So what happens is, is we go and live out in this world and we, you know, we sense things. We look around and using all of our senses, we sense things. And then we make sense of that thing. And that's the story we tell ourselves. That's the thought. And those thoughts directly influence our emotions, how we feel. And those emotions directly alter our physiology, our heart rate, our skin conductance, our muscle tension, the neurotransmitters and chemicals, hormones released in our body. And then that physiology, that biology impacts our behavior and performance. So thoughts impact our emotions, impact our body physiology, impact our performance behavior. And that when we can optimize our thoughts and optimize our emotion and our body, then we have an optimal energy flow.

Beautiful. Couldn't have said it better myself. You're the expert and it clearly shows. So thank you for that. Let's shift gears a little bit and discuss the convergence of sport, health, and business. You've consulted with the US Air Force, NASA, Marriott, Deloitte, ESPN, a laundry list of amazing organizations. What surprised you most about applying sports psychology principles inside corporate environments?

That is the exact same thing. We're either just using our body and the skills that our body has, or we're using our operational skills to get a job done. But in all industries, there's competition. In all industries, there's goal setting. In all industries, there is emotional regulation. In all industries, there is confidence and competence. And I mean, it's the exact same thing. There is one difference. In sports, we train more than we compete, perform. And depending on the sport, because it does vary, but some sports you're training 90% of the time and you're competing 10% of the time. In business, we don't have a lot of opportunities to train. We are always competing. We are always performing. So that is a big difference. So in the corporate world, the business world, we really have to take advantage of those training opportunities. We cannot waste any of that energy and any of that time. And in the overall all life and health and wellness, again, it's kind of the same. We're always, always on. And so there's the only difference, but in everything else, it's the exact same. And, you know, I was privileged to be introduced to that. One of the first sports psychologists who became my mentor in the end, Dr. Jim Lehrer, he wrote a book called Stress for Success. He's written, I think, 14 books, New York Times bestseller, and we just lost him. And so his legacy lives on. But when I was 17 years old, I was reading his book, and at 17, I thought that I was still only going to work in sports. And then as I'm reading this and I'm listening to him apply sports psychology to business and life, I became very clear that I can do the same and that I want to do the same. And so I have followed in his footsteps.

That's amazing. Sorry that you lost him and the world lost him, but that's a great legacy. And that's what this show's about, is, uh, building a legacy. So I'm positively affected by that relationship. Many Legacy All-Stars listeners are entrepreneurs and business owners. Where do you see the biggest mental performance gaps holding business leaders back from their potential?

I think the biggest performance gap from leaders is that we have to understand that not every— and I'll just use a broad word— failure. Not every failure has to attack our confidence, has to attack our vision. You know, we talk about this word imposter syndrome. We talk about, you know, am I ready? Maybe I'm not good enough. Nobody thinks they're good enough. Welcome to the club. Everybody doesn't, you know, to some extent doesn't feel like they belong. Welcome to the club. But we can reduce that by not thinking that every, again, mistake, or maybe it wasn't even a mistake. Maybe it wasn't even in our control in the first place, but we now have to shift. We now have to detour. Maybe we actually even have to like take a couple steps back. It's just not there for us yet, for whatever reason. It doesn't have to attack our self-worth. It doesn't have to attack our self-efficacy. I think that's where we go wrong. Sometimes a mistake is just a mistake and it doesn't have to mean anything more than that because then we can stay focused on, hey, what's the next move? And we don't have to, we can quiet our minds down and we don't have to even dive into anything regarding to motivation or confidence or, you know, not feeling good enough. Doesn't even factor in. It's just a mistake. It's just a failure. It's just a setback. Let's keep going.

Yeah. I mean, look, own the mistake, live up to it, you know, own up to it. Organizational dynamics often see people, people who call themselves leaders that are not vulnerable enough to show their team that they can own a mistake. And I think what I've seen is that when you're willing to own your mistake and own up to it and really communicate that effectively to your team, the team is inspired to do better. And so I really love the fact that you utilize that. Concept in your teaching. It's amazing.

Yeah, we have to have a good relationship with failure. And one of the ways to do that is to acknowledge that it happens. But the other way to do that is to not like let it penetrate into your, your being. Another mentor of mine, Dr. Jack Gropple, who is funny enough, was partners with Dr. Jim Lehrer. He has this quote, show me a performer or competitor, business or anything. Show me a competitor who's not afraid to fail. And I'll show you a very dangerous competitor. And it's not about dismissing it, as you said, Alan, owning it. And then, so what? Let's carry on. Let's learn from it. Let's make sure we reduce the opportunity for it to happen again, but it doesn't have to cut us to the core.

Yeah, sure. Sports is such a great metaphorical representation of that. I mean, you hear people talk about, you know, Babe Ruth struck out more than any other player. You hear about Michael Jordan missing more shots than any other player. I mean, these are all lessons that are taught in sports that you can't really get necessarily anywhere else. And it reinforces the concept of being able to be willing to fail and own up to that failure, but don't let it distract you from your end goal. So great, great topic. I love this topic. I wish everybody would just embrace what could be considered a failure and consider it putting a coin in the bank of success.

And I know you have a passion for your youngsters too, with your school. And, you know, not that I work with a lot of young, young athletes, it's more of embracing that, but I was speaking with a young athlete yesterday. She's 12 years old and she's got great talent, but she's afraid to make a mistake because she's afraid of her teammates calling her out and letting her teammates down or them talking badly behind her back. And I'm not going to tell her to not be afraid of that because I think it's real, especially in today's world. We can be nasty. We can be real mean. And so it wasn't that I was teaching her not to be afraid. It will never happen. Don't worry. The lesson that I believe that is an opportunity here to have is, I get it, people listening and watching, I get that you're afraid and it's real because I'm afraid too. I don't want to make a mistake, but I want success more than I fear anything else. And in the moment, that's the question that you have to answer. And that's the question I asked this 12-year-old. I know that you're afraid of that. I get it. I'm not going to tell her to not be afraid of something that does exist and that can happen. But let's make a decision right now. Do you want to succeed? Do you want to go out there and score a goal more than being afraid? And that's a question she has to answer. And that's a question we all have to answer for ourselves.

You know, you probably answered my next question already, but I'm going to ask it anyway because I think there might be other factors that could help people, especially youngsters. Youth sports is close to the hearts of many in the audience, including myself. What mental performance habits do you wish were taught to young athletes that most programs still overlook today?

Well, I think this whole fear of failure and fear of losing, I don't know that we're going about it the right way. If I can be completely honest, I like the idea that there is a first, second, and third place. I think that's the reality of life. I think when you leave sports and go into business or go into life, we do have top-performing companies. Not everyone gets a reward for effort. So I believe we have to teach that, but how do we teach that? We all teach it by not fearing anything else and not just showing up and getting a reward for effort. I do believe we have to understand that mistakes happen and that failure is part of the gig, but I don't know that we teach that by, you know, high five for showing up today. I think we still have to take responsibility for high standards of performance. And there's that lesson in there. So it's tricky.

Yeah. I've never been big on, uh, participation trophies. Let's just put it that way. I don't think participation trophies don't exist in life. They don't exist in business. They don't exist in education. They really shouldn't. It doesn't mean that the person that is not winning doesn't gain the opportunity to learn from what we talked about, which could be a perceived failure. Participation trophies have probably been the bane of the existence for kids and teaching them accountability.

Right. And I still think You know, we create these high standards of performance. So how do you want to show up? What do you want your teammates to see in you? What do you want your coaches to see in you? Nothing to do with the results, nothing to do with outcome. It's your character. It's how you're going to be a teammate. It's how you're going to apply that effort. And I think those can be acknowledged. Those can be acknowledged. And that takes the focus off first, second, and third place. But doesn't remove work at first, second, and first place because it still exists in this world. It's the reality of—

Yeah, most definitely. I want to talk about your book, Personal Podium. It's about using your mind to maximize your potential in sport and life. What a cool concept to have that personal podium and kind of put it into the sports context. What's the one concept that has produced the most transformative results for readers in that book?

Great question. You know, in that book, every chapter starts out with a concept and then finishes with a story, a real story about an athlete who used the concept. I think in business and in sport, but it's— I'm embracing it a lot— is this concept of your own performance team. And so what do I mean by that? We're all on a team, right? Whether it's your colleagues at work or whether you are an athlete and you have a sports team. But that's not the performance team I'm talking about. I'm talking about your greatest coach. And for me, probably my dad, my greatest cheerleader. For me, probably my mom, the person who's going to hold a mirror up. I have a girlfriend, Judy, who holds the mirror up. Um, a jester is going to make me laugh. You know, the person who's going to connect me to people, you know, the person who's going to be a strategist with me, that would be my husband. That's my performance team. And I take my performance team to all of my career, my sport, you know what I mean? And that when my, my work team is struggling, when I'm not feeling connected to my colleagues or when I'm having a fight with my teammate or my coach, I go to my performance team and never do I feel alone.

That's great. This is all about legacy. That's what the show is all about. So when you think about legacy, what do you want the impact of your life's work to represent?

Already gave me goosebumps because I just shared with you one of my mentors just passed a couple of weeks ago of this recording, and he has a legacy. And I feel very honored because in the last few months he called me and asked me in these words to be his successor. And that's not what I believe he meant, but there are certain projects that he asked me if he can't do it anymore. So he could think of no one else to ask than for me. And I— it means so much to me to do that, and I want to make him proud. And I hope to inspire someone else that if I were to ever pass the torch, that they would feel what I feel, which is such a desire to continue on what I love most about my career and what I do, but also make someone else proud. I want to have that impact on somebody else.

Yeah. Impact. That's a mouthful.

Yes. And, you know, the greatest joy is when people who I've been coaching, both executives and sports reports, they reach out to me and they say, "Hey, I have a text from a client who reached out to me and said, 'Hey, I just had this hour-long conversation with my boss, and we were just talking about how mentally strong I am, and I just realized, wow, all the growth that you and I've done together. Thank you.'" I mean, what more can I— that helps me so much.

I mean, you can't buy that. You can't buy that kind of satisfaction. It doesn't come from money. It only comes from impact. I just love that story.

Yeah. And it doesn't have anything to do with trophies. It's just her in an hour conversation acknowledging her growth in her mindset.

Great stuff. For someone listening right now who wants to start building their mental edge, what's the one practice they could implement before they go to sleep tonight?

Start thinking about your relationship with failure. I really honestly believe, because we're always focusing on how to get more confident and how to get more motivated, which is great, absolutely great. But along the same lines, we also have to have what I call doubt tolerance. We also have to have fear tolerance. So start focusing on, you know, really the mistakes that you're making. Have they earned the right to really attack your confidence, self-worth, and self-advocacy? Or is it just a mistake that we can learn from and, you know, figure out this skill? Start developing your relationship with failure. And it's okay. A lot of people like, I don't want to talk about failure because then I'm going to be, you know, law of attraction. I'm going to be like bringing it into my life. I actually believe that the greatest performers out there have the ability to understand that failure happens. They know that they're going to be okay if it does, and that frees them up to now go and expect the best, hope for the best, knowing that they'll figure it out, whatever happens, best or worst.

Yeah. I don't think it's contradictory to the law of attraction either. I think you can understand and embrace the idea of failure or being at peace with the idea of something that happened that was negative and being in the moment with that negativity. Without losing your overall mental edge on the positivity of life. Law of attraction's real, I believe it, but it doesn't mean that you have to eliminate thoughts from your mind that can be productive. And so I think one of the things you've illustrated here is that, you know, being able to learn from the mistakes and not abandoning your efforts based on one failure is so crucial to somebody becoming a high performer.

Yeah, couldn't have said it better. Thank you for sharing your insight.

Yeah. Well, we've come to the end of the show. I'm super excited to have shared all your wisdom on the show. Thank you. You've reminded us that the greatest competitive advantage any of us can develop is found not in a playbook or a spreadsheet, but it's found between our ears. The mental game is real. The work you're doing to help athletes, leaders, and high achievers perform at their best is exactly the kind of legacy that ripples far beyond any scoreboard. To our listeners, follow Dr. Haley Perles on Instagram and YouTube at @DrHaleyPerles and grab her book, Personal Podium. Links will be shared in the show notes. I'm Alan Pavlosky, and this has been another episode of Legacy All-Stars, where we celebrate people using their success to elevate others and leave the world a better place than they found it.