REIA 90 Hugh Carnhan and Dane Logan: Can You Walk Away From Your Business for More Than 30 Days?

Welcome to Real Estate Investing Abundance, the show for busy, fulfilled professionals like you to learn how to develop financial independence built on solid passive real estate investments. Now, here is your host, Dr. Allen Lomax.

Hello, enlightened investors. I'm your host, Dr. Allen. Can you walk away from your business for more than 30 days at a time? If you can't, let's take a look today at how we can restructure our business so that we can do just that, to live more abundantly in all areas of life. By the age of 28, Hugh Carnahan transformed 3 companies into lean manufacturing. His greatest achievement was taking a manufacturing operation from a 22-day cycle down to 3 hours and reducing transportation waste from 1,280 meters to only 36 meters. Implementing the operational changes cost the manufacturer $20,000 to save them $7 million annually. Dane Logan is a real estate investor, aspiring author, and a cat dad. Dane, through partnering with Greater Ozark Realty, is on a mission to change lives through responsible investing and sustainable development projects. His background stems from technology and human growth and development, And he believes if you want to excel in business, first you need to grow the people. So, Hugh, let's start off with you and share with us a memorable experience from your formative years that helped you to be the person you are today.

Well, Dr. Allen, thank you so much for having me on. We really enjoy listening to your podcast. And a memorable experience from my formative times is I was in military school from age 10 To age 22. And well, I went to a senior military college as well, and that was the tail end there. And so all through that time, it emphasized a lot of team building, a lot of discipline, and— but they just spent that time developing people. And almost all of it would continuously always revolve around leadership, and everything kind of came always full circle regardless of what was being taught. back to leadership as the core of everything. So that was a very memorable time for me. It was the first most of my life.

Interesting way to begin life. Not many of us go through that military school experience there. I'm a little surprised to hear that that's where you began your educational career there. Well, Dane, let's go to you. And Dane, share with us a memorable experience from your formative years.

Yeah, of course. And again, great to be here with you, Dr. Allen. Mine's not as interesting as Hugh's. Mine's a little bit more simple. I tended to fail a lot at everything early on in life. I really tried to get a foothold in so many things, but I had so many interests. And so I experienced a lot of failure early on, but I was too hardheaded and persistent to kind of stop there. And when I decided I wanted to get into tech, I had no experience at all in tech. And I spent 5 months convincing the first tech company I worked for, that I was good enough to even be brought on in an entry-level position. And that's where my persistence and stubbornness really took off. And my career in tech is what launched me finally to my first real taste of success and being in big professional settings with, you know, organizations all across the world. So that, I think, is what shaped me and my drive and ultimately what led Hugh and I to partnering at Greater Ozarks Realty.

Well, tell me more about that partnering experience and how you all came together, and how did you realize that you actually were going to be partners and that it could actually work out for the two of you?

Well, I'll start off. We actually started off as friends, and that can be a very dangerous thing if you're getting into business with friends. But we were out in San Diego at the time. I was previously married. I was a male military spouse. After the military school, I didn't want to wake up and exercise, but I ended up marrying a gal that was in the Navy. And that's how Dane and I actually initially met, his wife, Alicia Tackett.

And my wife is also ex-Navy. So we were both male Navy spouses. And my wife's like, hey, you might want to meet my friend's husband. He likes brewing beer and some of the stuff I like to do. And I was like, I would love to meet him. And it was such a rare thing for both of us to be stationed out there and be able to click on a lot of our hobbies. And that's really where we connected at first. It was pretty cool.

So that gave me a glean of insight into Dane. And then I saw him being extremely capable where he was working there. So I actually helped try to recruit him into my company that I worked at there, which was a big tech company. And he ended up getting a better position elsewhere, but it was just that character and getting to know people. Flash forward years later, I had walked away from the corporate life, went into manufacturing, And while I was in manufacturing, started down the real estate path, which is a funny story. But as I did that, I kept listening to podcasts such as yours. And one of the recurring themes was, I wish I would've scaled sooner. I wish I would've scaled sooner. And so even though I was way earlier, I've just started my real estate career with 26 single-family houses by that time, I thought, even though I just started, it's time to bring someone else in because every successful, extremely successful person, That's what they ended up doing is they scaled bringing a team on. So my mind went to Dane and I reached out.

Well, it was kind of funny. He reached out and said, hey Dane, I know you're in Japan. I just read this book called Rocket Fuel. You've got to read it. And he was trying to put the ideas in my head first. And the whole preface is, you know, there's a visionary and there's an implementer. And he was this incredible visionary. And that's what he had set for his company. And he saw me be someone who can really implement and go to action with things in previous roles I did. So he did a lot of convincing. to get me to move from Japan to Missouri, which was a big jump. My wife had separated from the Navy. We didn't know exactly where we were going to land. I've never done anything in real estate, kind of like Hugh. My background is tech. And I was like, no, that's the industry I'm comfortable with. And I have a lucrative career that's drawing me back there. But Hugh is as persistent and stubborn as I am. And now I am here working with Hugh day to day running the business.

That is quite a huge jump from Japan to Missouri. And yeah, that must've been quite a job at convincing Dane to take, to go with you in a new startup when he had prospects within a tech industry that he was comfortable with. Well, take us back, Hugh, back to the beginning of you were working at a W-2 job like many of us do, and you went from that W-2 job and became— A millionaire in 15 months. So take us back to the beginning there.

Sure, absolutely. So for me, it all started back when I was in the manufacturing side, right? I left corporate America to small business USA and was enjoying that, but I did everything that you're supposed to do that we're taught from a young age, right? Go to school, get good grades, go to college, get good grades, you know, go get this fancy job.

Invest in your 401.

Invest in your 401, you know. I had the buy-in and then I was there. And I was about 27 at the time, 28. And at that time I was running an international company or helping to run an international company, going back and forth between China and the US with 350 employees. And it was pretty gratifying, but I just woke up every day and I just thought, this can't be all there is. And also I can't stop working because you're now in the grind. And so At that point, I started just looking and branching out, and I stumbled across what's called 2 Second Lean. So I had that feeling for a while. 2 Second Lean is— go check it out. It's Paul Akers. He wrote a book, just a genius guy. And the book 2 Second Lean is a dumbed-down version or a simplified version so someone like me can understand it. But it's basically a very simple way to implement lean manufacturing principles without all the fluff and jargon. And so then I got into that space and applied it, and I started transforming the manufacturing facilities in China. Well, it's universally applicable. It doesn't have anything to do with manufacturing. It has to do with process. And so I started thinking, can I apply that to my own life? And can I apply that to finance? And then so my grand idea was that I was going to buy solar panels To put on my house. And that's my— I have no idea about real estate, so I'm going to buy solar panels. Well, I bid out several contractors. I'm trying to help every contractor that comes lead with value. I start teaching them about 2-second lien. And then this guy says— he pulls me aside. He won the contract. He won my bid. And it was going to be $180,000 to install solar on the facility, on the house. And he basically pulled me aside and said, Hugh, Do not buy solar panels from me. Go to YouTube, type in BRRRR, check out the BiggerPockets podcast, go buy real estate and use that to pay for your electricity. It makes more economic sense for you. And I was like, that's an extremely strange thing for the owner of a company to say to me. Well, long story short, 6 months later, he goes out of business, but I decided to go and start learning about real estate. I had no experience. I found out about it through BiggerPockets. And then I found out about the BRRRR strategy. And then from the BRRRR strategy, I then applied the Lean thinking from 2 Second Lean against my personal finances and against the BRRRR strategy, which those of you who don't know is already an extremely powerful strategy. And it was just like wildfire, just scaled at enormous rates. And I never bought a house before. I never bought a house at all, not even to live in for myself. And the first acquisition was 26 houses. And then we— scale and bought more and just scaled further.

Led you into commercial, which then eventually led him down the road to hotels and the hospitality side, which is when we partnered together. So applying those— that method is what grew that portfolio exponentially where he could bring on a partner. And, and that's where we really—

While we were doing that, I was still doing a W-2 job at the time. So this is, you know, after-hours stuff. Like most of us start in the W- W-2 space. You start as a W-2, and then while you're working that, weekends and evenings, you're trying to figure out the real estate side. And so it was that standard push, but then it was, hey, every very successful real estate teams, their biggest advice is, I wish I scaled sooner. So here I am, I think I was like 10 months into it at the time, and I thought, all right, well, I'm going to scale. I'm going to bring people on even though I can barely afford to keep my head above water. But that's what the smart people, people smarter than me, had told me to do. So that turned out to be a very wise business choice.

But when you turn the system on, you have to be ready, because the moment I showed up here, Houston says, I don't know what I'm going to have you do yet. I know that we have a vision and I want to grow this company. And in 7 months, we've doubled our core team, added 15 employees, and acquired, I think, 6 more properties?

We acquired— we have 31 single-family homes now. We then took over 2 more motels and a hotel, and then 2 apartment complexes.

And then the most recent acquisition, which I think I'd mentioned it on the bio, which was the missile silo. And so it just spiraled into something almost— if it wasn't for the system in place, It could have gotten away from us really quickly.

Well, tell me about this system. If you can just break that down into understandable, simple language here, what is the system?

So the system is called 2 Second Lean, and it is completely built around building a culture of continuous improvement. And the entire system is dedicated to building a culture continuous improvement to where every part of our company is always working to improve their systems and processes. And what it leads to is you have a lot of critical thinkers on your team. Actually, everyone, the fundamental core, we have no job position titles. Dane, what is your title?

A process engineer.

Everyone is a process engineer. Whatever they do is a task. It's a byproduct of their real job. Their real job is a process engineer. Everyone in the team is that way. And their job is to think first. And a byproduct of that is whatever their job is happens.

And to give you an example of what that means, Allen. So if we were to hire someone at the hotel, and typically she'd be a housekeeper, we would, right up front in the interview process, say, you're not coming on as a housekeeper. Your job is to improve your job And the byproduct is like he was saying, turning rooms, doing this or that. So we put this system into place and we noticed neither of us had ever run a hotel before in our life. And it's a very active asset, which is not in our wheelhouse typically. But we thought, let's apply the fundamentals and see if we can turn this into a semi-passive asset. So we trained the culture of continual improvement and taking ownership, right? With very minimal oversight. And what we found is every single thing improved property-wide, every process, every person's attitude. It's remarkable when you tune into the morning meetings and seeing people laughing and enjoying themselves, working less but getting 3 times as much done, and just buying into this incredible culture because it serves the people. It grows the people, which was our unified mission. You grow people first. And this is literally the mechanism and the vehicle that helps you do it almost better than anything I've ever come across. Actually, better than anything.

2 Second Lean Step-by-Step is a Well, literally step by step, it is the playbook of what to do to build that culture in your company. It's extremely simple. However, it's not easy. Very simple. Most people fail to implement it because they try to overcomplicate it or they don't do exactly what it says. They do close to what they think would work and it ends up kind of spiraling out of control. But you basically, you develop the people, and as a byproduct, you have very, very little problems. Every day, the very first part of everyone's job, they're not allowed to do any of their job, whatever their job is, doesn't matter, their byproduct, right, their task. They can't do any of that. They're not allowed to do any work. They can only, for a certain period of time, improve how they would do their job the rest of that day. It might be labeling something. It might be moving a piece of equipment. It might be going online and ordering a piece of equipment. It might be cleaning a surface or oiling gears or something.

Thinking through every single thing they do and how to do it better.

And then giving that time first for them to fix their own problems.

Yeah, which is ultimately what led us to the ability to step away from anything we do 30 days at a time if we need to. So the real key ingredient was, could we step away from Our businesses instead of— Hugh's mission really is to end entrepreneurial enslavement. You don't want to leave a job to buy a busier job and really struggle as a business owner. And so we stress-tested this. We've been in business for a very small time, have more work than we've ever had, more moving parts. And we said, okay, team, with little notice, what, less than 24 hours of notice, we said, hey, everyone, Dane and I are gonna be completely unavailable for about 30 days, for a few weeks, right? At first, I left town and then he left town. Then we collectively were out of town working on other business things. And we thought, let's put it into practice. And we were blown away that when we had come back, not only did the company not burn down, which was amazing, people had stepped up to greater than they had done before. And we had to catch up with all the improvements they had made while we were gone. So it was running better. And we realized that we have a magic ingredient that a lot of companies are missing, especially business owners and busy real estate people. Even when you're building passive income, we know a lot of incredibly successful passive investors who end up working 20 to 30 hours a week still. Because they're still, you know, for whatever reason, their system is still missing the fundamentals of what we believe 2-second lien offers and some of processes we've come across. So pretty exciting.

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Yeah, this is very exciting to me because I certainly do believe in the empowerment of people for the betterment of not just specific individuals, but for the betterment of Everybody. So if you can just real quickly, you said you, you hired a housekeeper and first thing you told her, you're not hiring her as a housekeeper, that she's a process engineer and her job is to improve, uh, her job continuously. Uh, that's interesting in theory, but tell me, this first housekeeper that you hired, How did you just take her through that training process?

That's a great, great question. So for me, I had already led several companies through lean transformations. So as a prerequisite prior to them joining our team, they have to read 2 Second Lean and the book Extreme Ownership before they even show up for the interview, because we're going to ask some questions about that. And then step 1 is 90% of the time, 99% of the time, They'll never make it through that step. So the people who actually do make it through that step and make it to you are probably a little bit more engaged. Well, when they read 2 Second Lean, they still have no idea about it because they've never put it into practice. Well, we have a lot of experience with that. So when they show up, we then immediately begin training and we just train them in lean thinking. We never talk to them about what their specific job is. Because they're coming here with those skills. A lot of them are, or even sometimes it's better that they show up and they're a blank slate. They've never done it before. And we start building the SOPs or standard operating procedures around it. But what they do does not matter. How they think matters. So we spend an intense amount of time in training, approximately a week of just retraining people how to think about how to look at a problem, about how to look at the way they pour their coffee. Because those principles are all fundamental and the same. Then we can go do the— in my opinion, it's kind of funny you say this. In my opinion, the part that doesn't matter is the operation of the hotel or any of the other assets. What matters is, do the people doing it critically think, and do they have the tools needed, and are they aware of the responsibilities and their expectations? Mixed into, peppered into all of this, if you're not failing, you're not trying. So I fail and we all fail 30 to 40 times a day.

And we encourage them to try, even if they fail, something new. He's leveraging what a principle of 2 Second Lean is, wasted employee genius. And so we really leverage their personal genius to operate things better. And the mechanism that we use to sustain that is we run an hour morning meeting every single morning, company-wide, an hour of our time. Very sexy. Not talking about logistics, not talking about boring stuff, talking about lean thinking and sharing improvements. And that's what continuously perpetuates that culture of growth and improvement and the desire to be— one, it's kind of interesting. You see people, we had, A woman named Lisa. She didn't even actually work for us in the beginning. She happened to be with someone who worked for us, and she was around one of our motels all the time. She would barely look at us in the eyes. She had a real fear complex of even having a conversation with us. Fast forward to today, after Lean training and being around the culture for only 6 months— well, she was a little longer, about 8 or 9 months, right?

8 months.

She is now the site leader, the manager of a 40-door motel. She's running morning meetings on her own, has a staff member that she directs, and works with us regularly.

And the people that we— that when they begin, they may have never touched a computer before. They may not really understand phones.

She's never spoke in front of anyone.

No public speaking. So we take them through the beginning of that process of training. The week-long is more of a crash course to get them familiar with the terms. But every single morning we have the— what's called 3S time in the morning: sweep, sort, and standardize. They're not allowed to work. They only make improvements. That's for 30 minutes, followed by 1 hour. That 1 hour of time is just personal development and leadership training, is effectively what it is, in disguise. Guess who leads those meetings?

The people on your team, I'm assuming. You're not the teachers.

Exactly. They're the teachers. They begin to teach each other. Why would you— how much do you retain when you are just listening in a school, like classroom setting?

I think they're saying something— when you're listening to a lecture, I think it's somewhere between 10% and 15%.

Yeah, if there's no language barrier, that is correct. What is the retention if you are doing something or engaged with questioning?

If you are engaged and it's still a teacher-to-student kind of situation, if you're engaged in that, I think it goes up to It's about 30%. 30%, yeah.

And then what is it if you are teaching?

If you are teaching, then it is totally reversed. You're retaining probably about 70 to 80% of the—

It's often 90% retention. That doesn't even mean that you have to be a good teacher. It just means that you're attempting to teach. So the structure, the secret weapon in the morning meeting is our morning meeting, it cycles through who's leading the morning meeting. And because every week or two you're coming up and you're presenting the material, Even if everyone else gets— doesn't get— you're not a very good teacher, or you're brand new at it, just because you're trying solidifies that way of thinking. You cycle through that about— you know, you, you're on our team for about a month, 2 months, 3 months, 6 months. You have ingrained and internalized a way to critically think and view the world that is not available— Through normal teaching of any kind. Entrepreneurs, entrepreneurs, we all understand it because we are the people that are constantly trying to teach our employees. We know a lot about that thing that we want them to do because we had to do it and we're trying to not do it. Rarely will we turn the tables and say, all right, I just did this, now you show Sally how to do it. And Sally's going to teach Jim and I'm not allowed— and then, and then I'm going to watch what Jim does. Because Sally needs to be able to train. Now, so it's not only one person teaches the other person, the system is set up where one person teaches the other person how to teach another person. And that's the, that's the real, you know, where the rubber meets the road there.

And really, at the end of the day, once you learn to see the world through a lean lens, you notice you start doing it in your personal life. Every employee experiences this. It's the funniest thing. They come back to work Usually in a week or two after, and they're like, you guys would never believe this, but I went and rearranged all this stuff in my house and it saved me all this time. And they start doing it naturally in their own day-to-day lives, not just in the professional setting. And it's helped us approach all the businesses that we run or acquisitions or teams we build. It has really been that secret ingredient for us. And it's been amazing because again, we were kind of scared. Okay, we're about to really do this thing. 30 days, walk away.

How much planning did we do before we took over the hotel?

Oh, this was awesome. We, we asked everyone in the room, we said, how much time do you think it took us to plan and strategize when we took over this hotel? And everyone's like—

Let me ask you, Allen.

How much planning did you do before taking over this hotel? Well, from just talking with you, I am assuming Not much at all, which is extraordinarily unusual. So yeah, so tell me about that.

You're right, it was zero planning. We'd never run a hotel. We showed up day one like, all right, we're gonna teach you all Lean and we're gonna ask a lot of questions. And our hotel, from the research that we're doing and the comparison, is running, in my opinion, more than 3 times, 3x better than any high-end 4 or 5-star hotel just because we've applied the Lean culture. And these people, I would drop into any world-famous hotel and I bet they could teach seasoned hoteliers how to do a better job, which is pretty remarkable. It's a big claim.

The operations-wise.

Yes.

The operations. It's not that we're fancier or have the great service or a better restaurant. It's literally The way our employees think is important. So step 1, day 1, we walked in and I knew I was going to do one thing. I fired everybody on the spot and then it shocked them. And then I was like, luckily for you, we just had a bunch of positions open up and the position is called the process engineer. So it's whatever your job was, process engineer. And it really just— when you say, hey, my job is a process engineer, that is my purpose, that label on you is a big deal. You know, you're talking with some folks that don't have formal education sometimes, and you say, oh, I'm an engineer. Well, you truly are an engineer, the way you reshape it.

And our best ideas have come from new employees that have been there 1 or 2 days that we immediately implement. The best ideas go to the top. So we're in morning meeting and someone's like, I kind of had this idea for an improvement. And Carol or Anna, any of these new people coming on, And it has literally changed the way everyone works overnight. So it's this great culture where even new people feel valued, and it's helped us, again, maintain far outside of our active investments. We now have time to not be so stuck in the business. We get to work on the business and do the things that are valuable to us.

Well, it's really very exciting. I'm sure we could talk all day about this. I like your screening process. Having everybody who applies read 2 books. I am sure that eliminates your hiring pool by probably 90, 95%. Not many people. I mean, if you're hiring professionals and trained professionals who are actually looking for professional jobs, that's not unusual. But when you're talking about hiring people who are not educated, that's probably a really, really big deal. So that's probably a good screening process there. Well, tell us here before we have to get off the air here, I am really curious about your last acquisition here, the missile silo.

Yes, we have scaled to buying missile silos now. Well, historically, there used to be 72 back in the '50s. It was an intercontinental ballistic missile, an Atlas Class F missile silo. And our lean systems and processes picked up that it was going to be going for sale. So we do unusual things because it's more fun that way. We're going to all be dead at some point, and why not have fun beforehand? So I have a realtor whose sole purpose is to find us a cave to buy. Not a man cave, but like a cave cave.

Like a Batman cave.

And he comes out one day and he's like, well, it's not a cave, but will this do? And I was like, let's do it. So on the dime, in the middle of— right? Day-to-day business. We just drop everything and we activate our systems to go, which means that the business has to keep operating while we're gone. So we immediately drive out in the middle of Kansas and we effectively do one of those, we don't even have a checkbook with us, but we're going to make the offer on the spot and get it locked up. And we don't know what we don't know. So I'll make the offer, get it locked up, and then do the inspection contingency and back out later if needed. But the more important thing is get it locked up now. And those investors who are more successful, or fortune favors the bold, will tend to do those things. So it was that we had feelers out, and the moment something happened, we immediately took action. There's also a core principle of Lean. The only way to win is to do it right now. And so whatever we do, if it's something small or large, the only way to win is to complete the action immediately. And so we were able to run out and start—

Well, we would've— speaking of doing it now, we found out that other people were making plans and arrangements, big investors to get out there. But because they couldn't just drop what they were doing and jump on their private jet or take the drive, because of our mobility and flexibility, we really won the bid, which was great. We got so lucky.

One guy actually flew out. We found out from the previous owner, we don't know costs or anything, but a guy flew out from California in a private jet in a suit, one of those guys, walked around, did all the stuff, and he said, okay, I'm going to have to present it to my board and then I'll let you know. Well, we showed up about 4 hours after that, got the grand tour, locked it up on the spot.

No board.

No board.

Easy decision. So it was kind of nice that way.

And so it's the ability, you know, the people who are ready, most the species and whatever is most readily available to adapt to change and take action sooner, those organizations or species or people tend to always be more successful because they're not as timid. And, you know, 2 Second Lean really trains us to really kind of go after those kinds of things.

Well, and I, and I think to your point, Dr. Allen, it's now we have this thing. What in the world are we going to do with an empty missile silo?

So here's my big question: what are you going to do?

Now the government Apparently won't let us put a missile back in there. Yeah, so that's off the table.

So we're gonna have to get creative. And you and I just got back from a 3-day trip, um, to spend some time thinking about the real potential. And there's a lot there, there's so many avenues, but, uh, and some of it we can't discuss yet because we're under NDA. And, uh, this kind of— but high-level thinking, we are going to make it some way interactive with the public so they can take advantage and be a part of the silo as it develops. They'll be a part of the journey on some of the Facebook as we advertise the rollout on Facebook. They'll be able to interact with the silo and some of the unique ideas that we have and possibly do some short-term stays out there. We're thinking about getting involved with some gaming companies who do very similar themes to nuclear fallout and other things like that where we draw in some really cool young energy and, and hype up some buzz around this place. But the possibilities are honestly endless at this point.

Yeah, again, the sky's the limit of what we could do. I mean, we've even looked into tokenizing it or offering it for sale in different places like that. Or we could even do survival luxury bug-out, you know, shelters. And there's a competitor who already has a proof of concept out there that Each floor selling for $3 mil apiece per floor, and it's non-financed upfront. But there's all these things we could do, and we're not going to tell you what we will do.

Not yet.

Yet.

But I will say that ours happens to be possibly the only missile silo with a picture of John F. Kennedy inside. So we were pretty excited about that, and we're just trying to have fun with some ideas. Like he said, Maybe tokenizing it because that's a new side of real estate that's pretty explosive and hot right now.

The liquidity, if you're like, hey, I own a piece of this, you know what? I really need to buy that car, or my wife needs surgery. All right, well, now someone else has it and I've got my money, whatever market value it's worth, and we're out.

Interestingly, actually, when I was in the 3rd grade, my dad's a civil engineer and He was working for the government in Omaha, Nebraska. So he was a part of building those missile silos out in the cornfields west of Omaha there.

I know exactly the landscape you're talking about.

Well, tell our viewers and listeners how it is that they could get in touch with you. I'm sure they— you have a great deal to offer them.

Yeah, one way, again, trying to keep people along the ride. So Hugh Carnahan, W-2 to Millionaire on YouTube is a great way to stay tuned essentially, to really keep apprised of the journey and some of the exciting stuff we're doing, not just with the missile silo, just everything that we're interested in, some of the things we talked about. And then the final way is if you want to reach out directly, talk to us about ideas, comments, get involved, whatever that might look like. Really, it's easy. It's either Hugh, H-U-G-H, or Dane, D-A-N-E at greaterozarksrealty.com. We tried to put it up in the back in case people can see that. Just shoot us out an email. We love to chat and we love connecting with folks. So, but yeah, that's, I guess, honestly the best way. Facebook page will be up soon and we're going to try to engage an audience in that way as well.

Well, excellent. And the 2 books you recommended today are Two Second Lean and Extreme Ownership, correct?

Absolutely.

And who are the authors?

2 Second Lean is by Paul Akers, and Extreme Ownership is by Jocko Willink.

And he was a former Navy SEAL in Ramadi. So his story is incredible. And what you can glean from the title, it's a very powerful book and helps people really show up in ways that has made a fundamental difference in our organization, coupled with the 2 Second Lean culture. It's been a pretty amazing ride.

Well, Hugh and Dane, thank you so much for being on the show today. We're way over time, but it has been a very exciting and informative show. I do appreciate you being with us today. Thanks so much for being with us.

Thank you, Dr. Allen.

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