Revitalizing the Southeast: Grant Reaves on Flex Industrial Goldmines and Wealth Building - REIA 461

Welcome to Real Estate Investing Abundance, the show for busy, fulfilled professionals like you to learn how to develop financial independence built on solid passive real estate investments. Now, here is your host, Dr. Allen Lomax.

Hello, enlightened investors. I'm so glad you're back with us again today. And welcome to Real Estate Investing Abundance. I am your host. And we have an exciting An interesting topic for you today. We're going to be talking about the flex industrial and looking at using supply and demand imbalance to generate profits. With us today is Grant Reeves, and he is the managing director of Stoic Equity Partners, an investment firm that specializes in value-add flex industrial real estate in the Southeast. Stoic Equity Partners currently controls approximately $90 million of real estate through both syndication and through funds. So welcome to the show, Grant, and we're so glad you are with us. Let's just jump right in here. And a lot of us aren't really certain as to what Flex Industrial is. So just Explain to us what we're talking about here.

Certainly. And thank you, Allen, for having me on. And so flex industrial, how we look at it, and there are certain people who call it Class B industrial, shallow bay industrial, contractor garages are all kind of what we would consider flex. But it's essentially a multi-tenant building made up of individual office and warehouse suites. For instance, we own a 48,000-square-foot building up in Little Rock, Arkansas. That's made up of 16 individual 3,000-square-foot suites, but it's one, um, one 48,000-square-foot building, one facility.

Yeah, yeah.

Okay. And so some of these can be either front load or rear load. So you will sometimes see them where they'll have like the office entrance right next to the roll-up door for like a grade-level door. Um, most of the stuff we like to purchase is more of your kind of more traditional flex that they were building in the '80s and '90s that kind of just has a general office facade look on the front, or Kind of almost retail-ish, but it then has dock highs and roll-ups in the rear so that inside the space you can have— obviously it's flexible, that's why they call it flex. So you could have 40% of the space be office, 60% warehouse, or any ratio variation thereof.

Oh, okay. So you're, you're not, uh, in new construction here, you're buying, uh, secondary properties and revitalizing those and restabilizing them and bringing back to the market. Is it difficult to find these properties to revitalize and bring back, or is Is there a substantial market out there?

There is a substantial market, just like most asset classes right now, though. It is a little bit difficult to get sellers and buyers on the same page coming out of COVID I mean, it doesn't matter if you're a multi-retail, whatever it is, sellers still want to believe it's 2021 and buyers want to go back to 2018. So it's a little bit of a difference there. We do see a lot of deal flow by really focusing in on a select number of markets in the Southeast. We primarily play in secondary markets, so more of your Birminghams, not so much your Nashvilles, for instance. We have really good ties with our brokerage community in those select markets. So we see a good amount of deal flow. Obviously, just like any investment firm, we underwrite a lot of deals that we don't make offers on. A lot of the offers we make do not land just based on seller expectation of price. But there is a lot of deal flow out there. We would like to be in the new construction phase one of these days, but as you Mentioned in the intro, the supply and demand supports new, new construction as far as occupancy goes, and, and there are tenants to fill those spaces, but rates just don't currently meet what it would cost to build those facilities.

Mm-hmm.

We buy things at approximately $93 a square foot is what our, our average is in our portfolio. But it costs every bit of $140 to $160 a foot to build new construction flex and On that, in-place rents in most markets are 8 to 12 in the markets we play in, and you would need to be 15 plus to make new construction viable. So that's kind of why we, why we buy existing. There are— the marketplace and who we usually buy from is usually kind of legacy owners.

Mm-hmm.

We just bought a deal in McDonough, Georgia, which is south of Atlanta, that was a few gentlemen that, that built the facilities back in the '90s. They're now in their mid-'80s, so looking to retire and kind of move on to the next phase of their life. So we buy a lot from those kind of owners. It's a lot of more, I'd say, mom-and-pop kind of owners that either built it or bought it 20 years ago, 30 years ago, and have held it for a long time. Their rents are usually a lot lower because of the fact that their basis is really low in it. I mean, they paid 1990s prices, so they might be sitting there with rents in the $5 range when the market's $8. But to them, at $5, it works really well for them because their basis, again, is $30 per foot. So why not?

Right.

And it's paid off. you know, they have no debt or anything like that. So it's a good opportunity for us because we're able to go in and give them a good exit while also having good upside for ourselves to be able to do some renovations and take that property to market.

Well, I'm surprised that, that that's running $160,000 for new construction. Where is the cost in that? Is— I mean, I know material costs have increased tremendously, but I mean, it's basically a warehouse, right? I mean, you're not— so where is the cost in that?

Yeah, and $160,000 would be on the top high end. That's what we've seen for like tilt wall construction, like very nice facilities. I mean, a true metal building facility, you could probably get more like $135,000 to $145,000, really $140,000 kind of frame. But metal building supplies are very expensive still. Site work is still very expensive. Concrete costs are still very expensive. HVACs, that's the other thing is while these are just warehouses, you do still have to have individual HVACs or split systems or something for each of these office spaces. So the office piece is a big expense on the overall build cost. But yeah, it seems really inflated and we run the numbers a lot looking at it because we'd love to build. Like, we look at a lot of places and we're like, man, this needs more flex. But you end up running the numbers and every time it ends up coming into that frame. I'm sure there's possibly some people out there that figure out how to do it a little bit cheaper. So I'm not trying to say that that's universal, but that's just what we see throughout the Southeast. And I do think that eventually the market will get there. I mean, We are in South Alabama, which is a very high-growth market where we live. And Fairhope has, I think, tripled in population in the past 15 years of a lot of northern and out west people moving here. And there's just a lot of demand for all asset classes of real estate, and especially flex, just because there's no existing product to speak of. So in these type markets in the Florida Panhandle, just any kind of high-growth market that doesn't have a lot of existing supply, I think it's kind of one of those deals where you can build that and be able to make the numbers work in these type markets. It's just really more of your established markets like your Jackson, Mississippi or Baton Rouge where there is supply. It's kind of hard to come in and double the market just because construction costs are higher, right?

Well, what is driving the demand in this market? Why is it growing? Why is it increasing?

I think there's a few different drivers on that. Population growth, obviously, in a lot of the markets we play in. So we do play in of stabilized markets on the total MSA. Like, take Jackson, Mississippi, for instance. The total MSA is pretty stagnant in population. But if you start looking at select pockets around there, like Richland, for instance, we own a facility which is south of Jackson. That industrial market's really blowing up right now. There's a lot of new manufacturing coming in there, so that's increasing demand. On the north side of Jackson, we own a property in Ridgeland, which sounds similar but it's different, and that has a lot of housing going on. So a lot of new housing, being built up. So new construction, that kind of thing. A lot of, like, there's a new Costco next door, new Chick-fil-A, like new retail coming in. So there's a lot more demand for home services businesses. A lot more people are just starting new businesses in general, kind of moving up the ladder of starting kind of their own mom-and-pop shop. And then this is kind of the first space they need is usually like a 3,000-square-foot office warehouse. So we see a lot of kind of newer businesses. We do see some e-commerce, which has been interesting. In that Ridgeland facility, for instance, we have a boutique that's a women's boutique that they, they take pictures pretty much, I guess, just on Instagram or TikTok or social media in general and drop ship it out of the back of their warehouse there. So if you walk in, they have lights everywhere, they're taking a lot of pictures and just posting them online and selling. It's all digital women's boutique and that's being run out of office warehouse complex.

Wow.

Interesting.

Yeah, it's a little different.

Yeah, just a lot of things, you know, I guess, you know, I typically wouldn't, wouldn't think of in conjunction with who's going to be using those spaces. I mean, I can see contractors and—

Yeah.

And people who— I could see online businesses who have various different kinds of products that they're, that they're shipping could certainly use a space like that. But a lot of times, you know, people could just use their garages. So it's kind of surprising to me that that there has been such a boom in this, uh, in this particular—

And I think that's kind of the step up. So if you were, say, take that women's boutique, right, that was probably started by a lady in her garage that started out doing that. But as she wanted to scale, have enough room, have employees show up to a place every day, you need to kind of have a physical location. So that is one thing that we like about Flex is that if you need to have a decent portion of your workspace be warehouse, Unless you're going to go work out of your garage, which really isn't ideal. It's really kind of protected from the work-from-home piece just because unless, you know, if you need to make, to have serious storage or light manufacturing or something like that, you really need to have a physical location, right? So we do see a little bit of protection from the work-from-home piece. We do have some other kind of interesting tenants that I can quickly touch on. So we'd see some life science kind of space. So we have a CVS subsidiary as a tenant, and they have a clean room where they compound, like a compound pharmacy, and they mix IVs and put together prescription drug packages for the entire state to, to distribute to nursing homes. So all the nursing homes that are in their network, every single night at 1 AM or something like that, they pack up a bunch of trucks in the back and they ship them throughout the entire state. But it's all being— excuse me— run out of a flex industrial warehouse. They like that because it's cheaper rent than obviously being like in a a more high-tech office building or retail location. And also, it's a little bit more under the radar because they have prescription drugs there. So they don't really want to be advertising where they are. So it's kind of a good, good place for them.

Well, in terms of finding these properties, what generally goes into a renovation? What are you stripping it down to the studs and starting over? Or what's entailed, generally speaking?

So we usually do— a lot of times we have to redo roofs. A lot of buildings that we buy are kind of in disrepair, just kind of some deferred maintenance. A lot of times that's roofs, a lot of times that's resealing, restriping parking lots, repainting the exteriors, upgrading some landscaping, kind of just general real estate CapEx kind of stuff. But it does help drive rate just because this is a place where people go and show up every day to work. And a lot of people look at industrial and they're like, well, it's industrial real estate, it doesn't have to be pretty. But if someone goes there every single day to work, you want it to look nice and they want to go to somewhere that's, that's a nice place to work, right? So we find that very important. The other thing that we do is we pull out office space in select deals. Some space, some buildings we buy don't need this, but we've bought quite a few that do, where they were built in the '80s or '90s. And over the past few decades, as office space, you could charge more rent than you could a flex space because office was in high demand. People would build out these suites as 80 or 90% office. Well, as office has gone down in value through COVID, a lot of those are sitting vacant. So we've bought complexes like the Ridgeland one I was telling about, when we bought that deal, it was 74% occupied, but all the, or most of the vacancies were heavy office build-out. So we've gone in there and ripped out a decent amount of that office, turned it back into more 50/50 office warehouse flex. And I think we're at 93 or 94% occupied in 18 months by doing that. So that's really been a really good strategy for us. Which kind of going back into buying these from the sellers, a lot of sellers, they have these deals paid off, they've been cash flowing for a long time. So They would have to pull out of their own pocket to be able to do these renovations. We're going in, we're buying, and we're wrapping in some construction money into our new loans. And so it gives us the ability to kind of have the funds to be able to do these renovations on the front end. When the seller, if they did them, while they could have increased the value of their properties, it also would take them pulling out half a million dollars, whatever it is, out of their own pocket to put back into their property, which a lot of times they don't want to do. So it gives opportunity for us.

Enlightened Investors, if you haven't done so already, be sure and click that like button and also click that share so others can take advantage of the content. And finally, be sure to subscribe so you don't miss a single one of our upcoming episodes. Well, it's, it currently is low supply and high demand. Where do you think that that is going to be going in the next 5 years? Is the supply going to stay underperforming and demand high, or is it going to stabilize?

So I personally think that in the markets we play in that are growing, I think that we'll just use an example, right? So if we're looking at Jackson, Mississippi metro, for instance, there's a lot of new industry coming in there. Amazon's building a few billion dollar data center, and there's a lot of other big stuff happening. So as demand continues to grow there, Current in-place rents are about $10 a square foot triple net. New stuff, you might be able to get $11 or $12, but we'll say $12 for nice stuff. I think how that's going to go is supply will stay consistent for the next 2 to 3 years, maybe a little bit longer. And then someone eventually, as you see rates continue to rise— so if they're today for the nicest product are $12, let's say in 2 or 3 years it's $14. I think at that point you might see someone step out there and go build a new product. And be at $16, and it'll bring the whole market up with it. I think that if you start seeing a lot of new construction and people are advertising new construction at $16, $17, whatever it is at that point, if you're sitting next door at $10 a square foot or $12 a square foot, obviously you can't match them because they're brand new, nice product, but you could maybe go 20% below them. So maybe you're going from $12 to $14, and then your competition's at $16. You just increase the value of your property by What is that, 18%, something like that? So that's really where we see it. So we want to go acquire as much as we can, and as the market continues to tick up until eventually new supply starts coming in, and when new supply starts coming in, it really raises the floor for rental rates. I feel like we saw that in self-storage. Self-storage for a long time was kind of similar to that coming out of the recession. There wasn't any really new supply coming in, rates were low, and eventually people started building to be able to meet the demand, and the rental rates just really skyrocketed because of the cost of construction. It wasn't necessarily that, that rates were that much higher. It was just like, that's what it costs to build it. So you have to be able to make a profit. So therefore, rates just end up having to go up.

Well, you had mentioned triple net. And that's a little surprising to me, given the clientele, that they would be interested in triple net. Are most of your facilities triple net? Or is it select clients? Or how—

I would say Approximately, I'd say 70% of our square footage is triple net. 30% is more like a modified gross or a base year kind of structure. It is a little bit harder to explain to a smaller tenant that says a 3,000 square foot office warehouse how the pass-throughs work. We do find it very important though, and it is a huge value add if we can convert a facility to triple net or buying one that is already triple net. Most of the ones that we've bought have been triple net. There's only, I guess, Mm-hmm. 3 that I could think of that have been modified gross. But in the Southeast, with insurance currently doing what it's doing, is the biggest thing. Um, I don't know if you've seen this, but insurance in the Southeast, through really nationwide, but especially on the Gulf Coast and coastal markets, has exploded. I mean, we've seen insurance go 3x over the past 2 years. And so by being able to have this as triple net, you can't— it does, does weigh on your rental rates because a tenant can only afford so much, but it is nice to be able to pass that through to the tenant. But yeah, we do primarily see triple net in most of our facilities, which is really nice.

Well, triple net, of course, varies from lease to lease to a total classic triple net where all of the costs essentially are passed on to the tenant, to all kinds of variations in that. Where are you, generally speaking, on that spectrum?

Yeah, so I mean, if you were looking, I guess you could technically say it's more like a double net just because of the fact that we're usually in charge for roof and structure and parking and that kind of thing. But the 3 nets are CAM, common area maintenance, taxes, and insurance. And so usually we see a CAM reconciliation passing through 100% of taxes, 100% of insurance, and then kind of more the routine maintenance piece of the CapEx, right? So In that you can't pass on usually like a new roof that's going to be on the landlord, but you can pass through like the monthly landscaping is being passed through as a CAM charge usually.

Well, that's nice to know that. Well, and that you had mentioned self-storage and in self-storage and in multifamily, one of the things that is— that has changed, particularly in the self-storage industry that used to be a mom-and-pop industry, Over the last 5, 6, 7 years, that has changed considerably. And it's institutional players that have gone into that and has, has changed that whole market really considerably. Do you see that happening to the flex industrial spaces? Or do you think it's going to remain in the realm of mom-and-pop?

I think it'll get more institutionalized, just because I think that we're not the only— we're not the smartest people in the world. I think other people have figured out the supply-demand imbalance As well, so I think we will see a lot more capital come to flex industrial. The one thing with self storage, so we own some self storage. That's what we started, and we had a couple hundred thousand square feet of that, and then transitioned to the flex as that market kind of overheated. But in self storage, what they really were able to figure out to be able to institutionalize it is the operations piece and being able to use a lot more technology and virtual management. Some things like that have really come a long way for flex specifically. It is still pretty fragmented and localized. Like your brokers locally in, in the Memphis, Tennessee market, like that's who runs the flex world. You don't have a few guys that are doing leasing all over the country because it's small spaces, right? So it will probably remain more fragmented than like self-storage got super institutionalized. But I do see more money flowing into flex, whether that's through more like PE shops like us, more kind of just high net worth individuals. Maybe some institutional kind of quasi-fund or, or, you know, REIT or something like that will get more involved in that space. But I don't see it going to the level of, of institutionalization that, that self-storage did. Like, our play is not to, to go buy a few million square feet of this and then have one large exit to an institutional person. I mean, that would be great. And if that happens, awesome. But I don't really see it.

Well, Grant, how would a person who is interested in getting into this space, what are suggestions that you have for them?

I would start with the local brokerage community. That's who operates this property. So say in your local market, if you wanted to get into the flex space and buy a facility yourself, I would start talking to your local Cushman& Wakefield broker, your Cushman& Wakefield broker, go on LoopNet, CREXi, whatever, and look for the for-lease listings for flex space. Those brokers are going to be the ones who run with Flex Industrial in that market. And so that's the people to reach out to. That's what we've done. We have a really good broker relationship. through our markets. But that's the nice thing about it, it's very localized. So you have to know— it's hard, but it's also somewhat of a barrier to entry. You have to know who in Birmingham runs with flex because that's who you need to talk to be able to find property. If you don't want to go buy it yourself, obviously we have funds and we have syndications. We'd love to talk to anybody on that side that wants to get involved from our standpoint. But definitely the local brokerage community is who controls flex industrial right now, which I think will keep it fragmented and keep it The question I had just slipped my mind.

So sorry about that.

No worries, it happens.

Well, oh, so the question that I was thinking about is, as I'm thinking about this space, I'm thinking, I don't even know where these facilities are. You know, I'm just not aware of them. I mean, I'm sure I probably drive by them and don't even know what they are. But Yeah, where are they and how come I don't know what they are and where they are?

Yeah, exactly. I mean, it's definitely a very niche piece of industrial real estate, but you see them a lot in business parks. It's usually where we buy a lot of stuff. So where you see a lot of really bulk distribution or manufacturing, like heavy industrial facilities, there usually is some flex tied into there. Sometimes in office parks, you'll also see flux be a part of it there. But also, you'll— you— there are probably plenty of places that you drive by that you kind of will look at and be like, that just kind of looks like a weird kind of retail office center. But really, if you go around back, there's warehouses in the rear. And so they are kind of hiding in plain sight as well. But it's kind of like, what's the principle that if you buy a red car, you see red cars everywhere? You know, that's how we feel because I see it everywhere.

But yeah, it's definitely one of those that if you're not looking for it, you won't see it.

Yeah.

And so you're looking at markets that, that are growth markets, but you, you, you are focusing on secondary markets rather than the primary markets. And I think what, what you were alluding to, the reason for your doing that is because there's less competition in the secondary markets and you are finding price points that are just more favorable to what it is that you're doing in the, in the rehab market. Is this, is that correct?

Yeah. And I feel like you can buy more in-place yield in, um, in those type— in the more the, the secondary kind of less, um, glamorous markets. Like, I kind of feel like if you're buying, say, in a Nashville or Austin or South Florida, a lot more of that play is buying really low cap rate with the thought that I'm going to be able to sell it again for a really low cap rate in 3 to 5 years.

Mm-hmm.

While that's great and many people do really well at that, Not saying that's a bad plan, just I would rather be able to have good cash flow day one. And so I might buy, instead of buying a 6-cap in Nashville, I'll go buy an 8-cap in Memphis and be able to cash flow that 8-cap and have a lot more of my return structure come from the cash flow throughout holding the asset rather than just a large sale there at the end at a compressed cap rate. It's just kind of a different play. I feel like In more of the premier markets, you're playing more of an appreciation side, and more of the kind of boring markets that we play in, it's a little bit more of a cash flow yield play.

Well, have you ever considered or have you ever done a big box conversion to flex industrial?

I have not done it. I would like to. I think that there are buildings out there that will probably lend themselves well to it. It is expensive to do because you have to do firewalls in between and making new entrances. And you'd have to have the right piece of land to lay out to be able to have your dock access be correct. Because like a lot of kind of a, if you took like a, just trying to think out loud here, like a bulk warehouse, it's a tilt wall construction. You might only have docks on one side of it that, that is on like the short side of the building, but really need to be, to have docks around the long side so you can split it up horizontally. Right. And so we have not found one. I do think that would be a good place to be able to meet the supply and kind of start building, able to build some out. But we have not been able to figure that out yet. But I have seen like some people do it with big box retail, even like take an old Walmart and put dock highs along the rear. And it's a little bit different of a space. It's more, I'd say quasi, like it's larger spaces. It's like 30,000 square foot spaces, but still it's a repurpose of it. And I do think that there is some value there. Obviously larger industrial, like distribution center industrial is also doing really well. So there's not a whole lot of those. sitting around vacant for really cheap. So, you know, you'd have to find— your basis would have to be pretty low, I think, to be able to make that work, just because of the cost of building it out. But I do think that's a possibility.

So you're looking at population growth in the secondary areas and looking at cap rates. What are some of the other economic indicators and, and just purchase indicators that would indicate that this is the place you want to go?

Primarily growing industrial. Industrial use in that market's a big thing, as well as we also want to be wherever the new housing is. Where, like in Little Rock, Arkansas, we're right next to the new Topgolf, right next to where they're putting in new apartments, new housing. That's really all real estate is going to do better wherever the housing growth is, right? So that's where we like to play a lot too. Industry is obviously a big piece, but the housing piece is nice because If you have an HVAC company, you probably are going to want to have your office be near your more affluent neighborhoods. So we want to be near the more affluent neighborhoods because that's going to be where the best flex tenants are, because that's where they're going to want to have their businesses. So sometimes we own facilities that are kind of more in a little bit more of a retail area, but it works out well because there's a lot of suppliers or businesses that want to be kind of right next to the Costco rather than being in the middle of an industrial park. So it's a big thing.

Big thing. Well, Grant, we've come to the end here. So just once again, just tell our audience about your company and how it is that they can get in touch with you to learn more about Flex Industrial.

Yeah, so we are Stoic Equity Partners. We are based in South Alabama. We invest throughout the Southeast in Flex Industrial properties. Our website is stoicep.com. So S-T-O-I-C-E-P.com. My email address is greaves@stoicep.com. I'm also on Twitter and on LinkedIn. Please search for and connect with me there. And, uh, yeah, love to talk to anybody who wants to talk about good old office warehouses. We're available.

Well, Grant, one last question. How long has, uh, Stoic been in operation?

We founded the firm in 2020, started doing our first deals in '21. My business partner Jeremy Friedman and I were long-term commercial real brokers before that. So I'm a career-long commercial real estate guy, but we've had Stoic here for, I guess, about— we've been buying assets for about 3 years now.

Okay. Well, how did your career as a commercial broker lead you to this endeavor?

Yeah. So we always talked about getting on the principal side, starting to do syndications, raising some money. Brokerage is great. You can make a really good living there, but it is a very transactional business that, at least for myself, I'm sure there are people that were better at brokerage than I am, but it's transactional. Every day you're trying to make a new deal to be able to make your income, right? And we wanted to get on the principal side to be able to kind of build more of an enterprise, own assets, long-term growth. It's just a little bit better of a wealth builder. So we always talked about it for a really long time. Jeremy, at the time in 2020, had his own shop that did primarily triple net retail investment sales. I primarily did limited service hospitality throughout the country. So like Holiday Inn Expresses, Hampton Inns with Marcus Millichap is who I was with. And through COVID, I was looking at a small apartment building and to syndicate and trying to figure out a way to get into the game. And Jeremy had the idea of, he was like, well, if you know how to put those deals together and structure them and the LPG piece and modeling and all that stuff, I know of this other building. We should go do that here. And that ended up being our first self-storage conversion. We bought an old big box grocery store and turned it into a self-storage deal. So that's kind of how we transitioned. And we continued to be in the brokerage world, I guess, until really 2022 is really when we stopped selling. But it was a really good transition because we were able to— it was all commercial real estate. We brokered some to be able to pay the bills as we were getting the fund off or the firm off the ground.

Wow.

That's impressive, getting a big box and converting it to self-storage, and that was your first project. Wow, that took some balls.

It took some time too.

I'll bet it did. Yeah. Well, Grant, it's been a pleasure having you. Enlightened Investors, lots of information here today, and you know where to go to find information on Flex Industrial. Thank you so much, Grant, for being with us. And Enlightened Investors, we'll see you in the next episode.

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