Why Growth Doesn’t Happen Alone (and What Actually Creates Transformation) with Jaclyn Orent -Ep-564

What does resonance really mean? What does resonant relationships mean?

Well, it's not a random word.

It's actually been studied, and resonant relationships is made up of 3 things. It is made up of shared vision, shared compassion, and shared energy.

At the highest levels of leadership, success can feel strangely isolating. Conscious Collaboration in a World Built for Competition explores why visionary leaders often feel alone And how peer resonance may be the missing force behind lasting impact. Welcome to Streams to Impact, brought to you by Steve Talker Capital. I'm your host, Dr. Allen. There comes a moment in the life of many high-capacity leaders when achievement no longer feels expansive. It feels isolating. The titles are earned. The influence is real. Yet the inner circle quietly disappears. You're surrounded by people, but rarely met in the deeper work of vision, responsibility, and consequences. Today's conversation explores a truth many leaders sense but rarely name. We live in systems built for competition, yet the most enduring change emerges through conscious collaboration. Not networking, not alliances of convenience, but resonance. Being seen leadership that no longer has to be carried alone. Before we begin, I want to invite you into Beyond the Paycheck: The Financial Clarity Compass, a mini instructional masterclass I've created for high-achieving professionals who want their money to work with the same intelligence and intention they bring to their lives. This private educational experience is my gift to you, and you can claim it at www.go.steedtucker.com/beyond-paycheck. All information shared on Streams to Impact is for educational purposes only. It is not to be construed as investment Financial, legal, or tax advice. All investments incur risk. You should not invest if you are not prepared to lose 100% of your investment, and you're always encouraged to consult your legal, accounting, and tax advisors before making an investment.

Many leaders reach the top only discover that the higher they rise, the fewer places there are to stand in truth, reflection, and, uh, Shared understanding. Today's guest has devoted her work to addressing that paradox. Jacqueline Orndt is the founder of the Cultural Catalyst Network, where she supports visionary leaders who feel isolated at the top and helps them create lasting change through peer resonance and conscious collaboration. Rather than reinforcing the myth of the lone visionary, Jacqueline works Centers on how— what becomes possible when leaders are met, mirrored, and strengthened through authentic connection. So Jacqueline, welcome to Streams to Impact. We're glad you are with us today. So my first question is, as you look back over your life, what was one experience that quietly but profoundly shaped who you are as a person, Probably long before you could name its significance.

Well, Allen, I just want to say thank you for having me here today. When it comes to an experience that profoundly changed my life experience was actually after about 15-plus years in sales. I had an experience when I was leading a sales team to basically realized that I didn't love what I was doing, even though I was good at it. I've been in sales my entire life and my— I come from a sales background. My mom is incredible at sales and my dad was in sales leadership. And so I remember having that experience and being like, oh no, like my whole life is about to crumble because my life was built around this position in order to make an impact. And I remember the night that I had that experience with my coach and then realizing that I had no vision, right? As a visionary, your vision is what drives you. So I had no vision. So it was just like a black screen in front of me. And I've been there before, but it's not a fun place to be. And then I ended up going on a journey that basically had me start working with very specific leaders, leaders who are in what I call critical systemic leverage positions. I got that term from Dr. David Hawkins, who basically leaders are in a position to make the greatest amount of impact just because of the sheer influence that they have in their position. And I got to see what happened when I worked with leaders in those types of positions. And what I saw for the first time blew my mind, Allen. It was literally beyond anything I could have ever imagined. And I actually find the mind to be limiting. in terms of what is really possible. And that first experience that happened after I left sales leadership eventually led me to found Cultural Catalysts because I believe that we are at a tipping point in history right now. And that's actually what the science of change actually says is that we are at a tipping point in history right now. And I believe leaders are in, I believe, a morally responsible position to either be part of the positive change that we get to make or be part of the negative change that we get to make.

What a story. And yes, we do seem to be at a really critical point in history and at a point where the human experience could really go drastically one way or the other. And at those At points in time, there definitely is opportunity. There definitely is crisis as well. So yes, leadership is needed more than ever, and it certainly seems to be lacking at the world and national level in so many ways. So I'm glad you're here with us today to talk about this really important topic. You say that leadership isolation is something many high-capacity leaders feel, but really they rarely articulate.

Mm-hmm.

So how do you understand leadership isolation, and why is it so common among people who are outwardly successful and probably outwardly Yeah, well, why I speak to this aloneness that the leaders often experience but don't necessarily talk about is because in the last many years as I've been working with leaders, one of the things that I got to see in my personal practice was a very high-functioning, very influential, very successful leader have this exact issue, like literally right in front of my eyes. She was like wanting friends, fronting friends who could match her. And, what's so interesting is in the last many years as I've been working with leaders, I actually applied to grad school to go measure how consciousness is the root of systemic change. And, in doing so, I got to meet Richard E. Boyatzis, a renowned Case Western University and Harvard University professor and researcher who spent the last 60 years researching change. And, he actually read my thesis and he was like, you are accurate. And, referenced what I was talking about in my thesis and then pointed it back to the theory that he was talking about.

And then he basically was like, I will not talk to you until you read my magnum opus.

And I actually got a little humbled by that because I wasn't expecting that to happen. I thought the work I was doing was revolutionary and I didn't want to iterate.

I wanted to innovate.

And so I asked So basically, I ended up reading his book, The Science of Change, which he had literally released like the month before. And in this book, The Science of Change, it's how change actually happens from the individual to the dyad, which stands for couple partnership, to the team, to the organization, to the community, to the country, and all the way up to the global processes. And he spent the last 60 years researching this. And so I actually let go of grad school and went and I was like, you know what, maybe I actually have something to learn before I go do some research here.

And when I actually read that book, what was really interesting, the key things that are actually needed for change at a cultural level for some of us, we want to be participating in that, is 2 things. We need resonant peer relationships and we need a social identity group that has a collective shared vision, purpose, and values that we can align with. And so what does this mean?

What does this mean for your listeners? Well, the first step of the cultural catalyst system is to identify as a cultural catalyst. And what is that? The cultural catalyst is an identity. It's an ideal identity and outcome in one statement that some people are gonna raise their hand to and be like, that is me.

I'm a cultural catalyst. No one's given me that title until right now, but that's exactly who I am.

That's exactly who I wanna be.

And when they put their hand up and say, I'm, I wanna be that, that is actually the first step to joining a social identity group of others, other cultural catalysts. And when you have a social identity group plus the resident relationships, and this is what's so interesting, and when I got to realize what was happening with my client, Resonance, right? What does resonance really mean? What does resonant relationships mean?

Well, it's not a random word.

It's actually been studied. And resonant relationships is made up of 3 things. It is made up of shared vision, shared compassion, and shared energy. And what was most interesting for me with my client that I was working with and the high-level leaders I was working with, one of the things I was seeing was that they were surrounded by mentees contractors and employees, but they're not really surrounded by people with their same level of competence. So there's all this talk of go find someone at the next level, go find someone that can pull you forward. But what they're actually looking is for peers. And what the science is telling us is these peers that have the shared vision of our, in our case, being a cultural catalyst, having the shared compassion of having a similar level of competence, challenges, things that they can be compassionate towards each other. And the shared energy is actually shared activation. So, the shared activation that happens between humans is actually what creates the fuel for the change process to keep going. Because when it comes to creating a new sustained desired change, sustainability and creating a desirable change is literally against what our body and our nervous system has been programmed to do. So, when it comes to actually making a change, well, that means we need to be around the right people. And so, what we say in Cultural Catalysts is that the Peer resonance within cultural catalysts, in our specific case, is the missing infrastructure that you might not know that you realize. And so when leaders are like, I can do it myself, and they can, right? Like, they, they've gone through more than most people can. They have the grit and the tenacity and the, and the ability to go into the, the struggle and sit there for long periods of time. And just because they can doesn't mean they need to.

What the science is saying is that they actually need peers to fuel them in their change efforts.

So their human desire to have peers, Not just a human desire, it's actually a scientific need to create cultural change.

Well, that certainly makes perfect sense to me. And so I guess what I'm hearing from you is that it's not likely that they're going to find this resonance with other cultural leaders within their own organizations. Is that correct? Or—

Yeah. And actually, one of the things that we talk about in our masterclass is, well, how what got them here won't get them there. Right. And the purpose of the cultural catalyst identity is literally the first step in the science of change. It's connecting with an ideal vision of self.

And part of that is looking at 10 to 15 years in the future and prospecting into what are my values? What is my contribution? What is my legacy as a cultural catalyst? And so, Because it's in the future and they are not that person yet, the infrastructure, the peers, the friends, the employees, the contractors, the mentors that they have around them right now might not necessarily be in alignment with where they're going.

Well, I have certainly witnessed that in my own life. And those resonant relationships are often quite unexpected. You reach forward and they somehow materialize. Have you, in your work, have you been able to systematize that so that it's not just a happenstance?

Yeah, exactly. And that is the challenge that we're having right now with the clients that I work with. It's a happenstance where they meet other cultural catalysts right now.

It's a happenstance when they meet peers that turn them on and give them the energy to continue to go.

And, it's a happenstance that they are actually surrounded by people who can really meet them as people and not just leaders or people with a lot of money. And so, what we're actually doing with the Cultural Catalyst Network is creating a network for peer resonance for these cultural leaders to actually occur because this doesn't exist right now. Right now, there's masterminds and peer networks for business and there's peer networks for spiritual development, but there's not an integration of both scaling, cultural impact, desiring to make a cultural change, and the actual personal development that's needed to integrate the 3 of those. So, that's from our perspective. We're creating that right now, actually, because it doesn't exist. And we believe that we are part of the solution in helping our culture actually tip into a positive tipping point right now.

Yeah.

Well, what fundamentally shifts when leaders are met by equals rather than positioned as students or clients or as even the leader of the team.

Well, that's important.

So what happens when they're met by true resonance? Well, this is actually interesting. So one of the principles of ICT, the Intentional Change Theory, and we actually got to see this in the last— I just got back from a long-term immersion with a client, so I'll use this as a specific example. And what happens when she's actually around resident peers? So for example, we were sitting on the couch in her, in her living room overlooking a pond. She's got about 40 acres an hour outside of Austin.

And she was talking about her desire for friends. And I look at her and I was like, it's actually a neurological and physiological need that you have a desire for peers.

Mm-hmm.

And she was like, what are you talking about? And I was like, when you are met by the correct people, what happens is your body goes into parasympathetic response, which means rest and digest. The neural networks in your brain actually shift from problem solving and being really narrow-minded to open-minded and collaborative. And then on top of that, it— and what that creates is something called emotional and social contagion. So I looked at her and I was like, the science is literally telling you that your desire for peers is a neurological and physiological need. As soon as I said that, she relaxed. And then she was like, oh, so the peers are actually meant to fuel my personal evolution and my cultural contribution? And I said, yes, that is exactly what they're here for. And so that was a specific moment of her realizing that this human desire for peers was like needed and not just a desire, right? And then when you actually see what happens when they're around each other, there's an actual physiological shift in their, their body, um, and the way that they think literally in front of you. So for example, I got to see this client with peers right in front of me. And what was so cool to watch with them was that she got all energized. She got, and then there were all these ideas that came to, to, to fruition. And then on top of that, there was all these, there was resource sharing between the two of them. And then there was actual collaboration that was fostered between their two separate organizations. And so that right there is a specific example of what happens when your body relaxes and a different neural network, it's called the task mode network, literally turns on for collaboration. And now there's excitement, right? Now there's peers, there's excitement, there's looking forward to keep working with them and so on and so forth. So that's what we're looking for is that it's called PEA in the science of change. It stands for positive emotional attractor. And PEA is literally what Richard B. Boyatzis calls the fuel in a change effort. So imagine your peers actually is—

it's like you going to a gas station and you actually getting filled up, like you're getting gas in the tank. Your peers are the gas in the tank to get you where you want to go.

Yeah, I just couldn't agree more with everything that you are saying. And it seems to me like it could— it really happens at— it can happen at multiple levels. You don't necessarily have to be at the top of your leadership chain. As leaders, we often are not at the top of that leadership chain, but I also suspect that there are a good number of people who are leaders unaware, and they find themselves in new and different and strange situations, and they emerge as the leaders. Have you noticed that?

Well, one of the things the Science of Change does talk about is that the way to create like systemic-level change cannot just happen from the top, right? It actually has to happen at multiple different levels of the system. So, when you look at that specifically, there is a need for that resonance to occur across different aspects of the chain.

The only thing is not everyone necessarily identifies themselves as a leader.

And I'll give an example. This past week, I was working with someone and helping him embody some of the leadership codes that I've gained in my own leadership journey. And he still doesn't view himself as a leader, right?

And that's okay.

He doesn't have to view himself as a leader. We can still lead by example and share with others what it is that we are doing.

And for some, what happens is, um, our mer— if, if we wanna be like someone, so if someone wants to meet, like, to be like me or to be like you, their mirror neurons will literally go off and they'll start actually mirroring exactly what we're doing. So that's why my first principle of leadership is always to lead by example.

That way we can literally activate the other people around us to want to be like that if that is so part of what's called their ideal vision for themselves.

If it's not, if leadership's not part of their ideal vision for themselves, they might not necessarily take on the feelings, the attitudes, the beliefs, and the habits to necessarily become a leader.

Otherwise, that's something called the ought self. It's what you should do. It's what others expect you to do necessarily. And quite frankly, not everyone wants that level of responsibility.

And that's okay. We don't necessarily need to do that.

However, there are people who are genetically predispositioned to be leaders. And for them, it's like, well, there can be a lot of projection that comes with leadership. So there's an aspect of making sure that those people have the support that they need to really actualize their ideal vision of what it means to be able to make an impact and to be able to contribute at the level that they want to contribute. Even though it might not be called leadership, when you have them connect to that vision of their contribution, it might require that. However, they can call themselves that when they're ready to call themselves that.

Yeah. And I think the positive emotional attraction, I think, is so powerful. And I think one reason people do not activate that is because we have been taught not to be authentic with our emotions. Have you, have you looked at that?

Yeah, it's actually, it's funny.

I was sitting down with a friend of mine who's a COO and a president of a bunch of parent companies, and I coach her CEO and founder. And one of the things that we actually got to work on was addressing that specific piece and What happened was that there was the objective to be able to scale at a certain capacity within their organization.

And I remember her saying, like, I have a certain standard for, you know, the level of performance within the people of my organization.

And I totally understood what she was saying, because in the science of scaling, you have to have higher standards for the people that are on your team in order to scale.

And so, when we actually went into what was going on, what was so beautiful to witness in her was that she actually needed to give herself permission not to change. She needed to give herself permission not to scale. She needed to give herself permission to not— basically, she just needed to give herself permission not to change. That was the biggest one. And we actually did this on Facebook Live. And once she gave herself permission not to change, then she was like, okay, now I actually have the ability to change if I want to, and I do want to change. But there was resistance to change. And You have to understand that's the biggest challenge that we have as human beings is we are inherently resistant to change depending on the culture that we grew up in. And so, once we actually gave her permission to change, she got on board and then realized that she actually needed to create a permission culture in which it doesn't matter even if the people in the organization don't necessarily want to change, at least they have the choice on whether or not to change.

And oftentimes, when they are given the choice, they often desire to change or opt out.

Right.

That's what the permissionless culture, not permission, but the permission-oriented culture sets.

And so, what does this mean about transparency? Well, she was literally leading with transparency. We went on Facebook Live. We had her go through a personal practice that had her be witnessed in what was really going on for her, because I could feel her resistance to the scaling process.

So, I addressed it straight out.

And, one of the things that she and I talked about is transparency is the way of the future. And, that's not disclosing everything, but that is disclosing what is needed to disclose so that we can actually let go and we can grow to the next level of evolution. If we're not talking about what's really going on, there might be some unconscious or resistance or things that are in the way from us actually getting into alignment with each other. And I know, for example, with my own family, I'm in the process of creating a culture of transparency in my family. And when we go into family therapy together, I go in and I have the hard conversations with them, even when it's like standing in the fire for me. Like, I'm willing to go stand in the fire Of transparency. And what's happening within my, my family unit is that people are starting to actually tell each other what's going on right now. People aren't holding back what's happening for them anymore. There's actually a level of intimacy that happens when you are actually real and authentic with who you are. And with the advent of AI where it is right now, the only thing that I, like, one of the things that I think is we're gonna really need to focus on is how we relate to each other. If we're not really being honest with each other about what's going on, it's because we're not being honest with ourselves. And if we're not being honest with ourselves, the AI is going to keep positively iterating whatever it is that we're talking about, and it potentially could prevent us from becoming who it is that we want to be. So if we're not being honest with our peers, we're not giving them the ability to witness our blind spots, which is the biggest problem of how the mind works. is just how it is. It's no matter how good of a decision maker you are, you have blind spots because there are things that you can't see. And so, if you're not acting with transparency, that means that you're not opening yourself up to be able to see what you can't see. And then, then you can't be as good of a leader as you need to be. So, this is an aspect of what I call getting over yourself with compassion, right? And there might need to be some things that are addressed within oneself to learn how to be transparent because We haven't grown up in a culture where transparency's been valued.

That is for sure. And yes, denial is a real thing. And of course, like you just said, we can't see what we can't see. We can't know what we don't know. And the only way to open those doors, from my experience, is through that channel of transparency. Once we're transparent, then people start reflecting back to us and we can actually pass through all of that denial and find ourselves. Well, out of everything we've touched on, what do you think most leaders understand, or I mean, what do most leaders misunderstand about why they still feel unfulfilled even when they're Essentially doing everything right.

Your question is, why do leaders still feel unfulfilled even when they're doing everything right?

One of the things—

Correct.

The researchers that I've studied in the last decade at depth is someone by the name of Dr. David Hawkins. He was a psychiatrist and a physician and actually a consciousness researcher who left us with a revolutionary book called Power Versus Force. And I've read a number of his books. And one of the things that I really like about Hawkins is he has something called B, Do, have. Okay. And one of the things that I think that we as not just leaders, but as a human species, is we are forgetting that causality isn't necessarily that A creates B. That sometimes there's causality that is beyond what we directly see in front of us. And, what I'm speaking to is Newtonian physics is that this specific thing causes that. But, in the last 10 to 15 years or so, metaphysics has actually found something called chaos theory and nonlinear dynamics basically that sometimes unrelated things affect each other. And, the scientists don't necessarily like this because it affects their bell curves and the way that they study things. However— Thankfully, the science of change does address the nonlinear aspects of things.

And so what does this mean for leadership? What does this mean for how we lead our lives?

What does this mean as humans?

Well, there is an aspect of realizing that who we are is actually affecting what we do.

So if we are constantly focusing on what we do and we've constantly been figuring—

like we've done all the right things and we're not happy, that's because we're looking outside of us. for our happiness. And as long as we're focused on the doing part of it, right, we have— we've accomplished the doing part of it, and that may have led us to the having part of it. And once we have everything that we want and we need, we're still dissatisfied, right? Why are we still dissatisfied? And that's often what leads to seeking, seeking answers, seeking truth, right? And what seeking ultimately leads you to do is go back inwards to yourself and find that happiness is actually within The negativity that's within you when you let it go. And so, what I encourage and what I'm trying to say to your leaders is, yes, you've done great.

Congratulations.

You did exactly what the culture told you to do, but the culture didn't necessarily teach you how to be happy.

They didn't—

culture didn't necessarily teach you how to have joy or real love that defies what the mind really even understands love to be. And, that requires going inwards and learning how to let go of what Hawkins would say, that the love is always there. The love is like the sun that's always shining, but there's all these blocks to love, which is the clouds that are all in the way, right?

And so what we get to do as leaders to be able to lead from love and not force and actually give to life instead of take from life is to actually let go of the negativity that we've stored inside of us.

And when we let go of it, that's when we actually find what we're looking Well, Jacqueline, thank you so much for being with us today. I have one last question, but before I get to that question, just want to kind of reflect back over what we've talked about. And we've talked about the quiet isolation that often accompanies leadership, and we've explored why traditional models fall short for conscious leaders, not because they lack effort or insight, But because they're really missing resonance and being seen and met by equals rather than instructed or positioned. So we've also talked about how belonging, identity, intentional community create the conditions where real lasting change can take root. And for those who are listening who felt something resonate, In today's conversation, Jacqueline is currently hosting a free masterclass, and it is titled The Science-Backed Secrets to Activate Your Legacy as a Cultural Catalyst Without Burning Out. And you can register for this at www.activateherlegacy.com. And you'll find this information in our show notes. So Jacqueline, as we close out, when all is said and done, when you do come to the end of this life journey, what do you hope was most true about how you lived?

What I imagine to be at my end-of-life celebration is to be a celebration of the actualization of the cultural catalyst within and the leaving of a system that can continue to be used and embodied for others to be actualized in their desire to be cultural catalysts as well.

Well, Jaclyn, thank you for sharing with us today. And certainly, thank you for being our guest. And to all our enlightened investors, thank you for joining us today. If today stirred something in you, a desire for alignment, clarity, or a deeper relationship with purpose and impact, I want to invite you into our Beyond the Paycheck, the Financial Clarity Compass. It's An instructional mini masterclass designed for high-achieving professionals who want their money to work with the same intention they bring to their lives. This private educational experience is our gift to you, and you can find it at www.go.steedtalker.com/beyond-paycheck. Until next time, stay grounded, stay conscious. And keep creating impact that truly matters.

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