https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqiDk-9vztM

Welcome back to another episode of the Ally from Corporate Podcast. In this episode we're going to be talking about the psychology behind power dynamics at work and how to navigate them. Today's guest is Melody Wilding. She's a two time best selling author. She's an award winning executive coach and a professor of human behavior. For over 15 years she's helped high performers at top companies like Google and JP Morgan transform workplace dynamics and fast track their careers. She's the author of Trust Yourself and Managing up, which I have a copy of and I'm Loving. So far she teaches professionals how to master their own psychology and the psychology of those in power. Very valuable if you are any sort of professional in today's fast paced world. Melody's work has been featured in the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal and Harvard Business Review. And I could go on and on about her accolades, but I'm thrilled to have you here today. Thank you for joining us, Melody.

So excited to be here with you. Thank you.

Yeah, absolutely. So when did your book come out, Managing Up? It's recent, right?

Yes, it just came out in March. So as we're recording this, it's been out just about four months.

Cool. Congratulations. What has been the feedback you've gotten from people that have bought your book and read it? Has it been a success in your opinion?

Knock on wood. Yes, the feedback has been amazing. And you're always nervous whenever you publish a book. The first book, I thought it was just because I was a debut author. But no, you're always nervous putting your ideas out there. You know that as someone who is a creator and you work for years on a book. I spent four years writing this multiple full drafts that I just basically threw, threw out and started fresh every single time. And so to hear people are enjoying it and I think what's been most meaningful and the biggest piece of feedback I get is people love the scripts. There is. And I went through painstaking effort to make sure that there was lots of different phrasing for all types of different situations for different objections or what do I do when this happens or that happens. And, and what was really exciting is actually earlier this week I got a message from someone who said he got a 20% raise using one of the conversations, actually the money conversation in the book, which is all about boosting your salary. So those are most meaningful to hear that people are not just reading it, they're actually applying it and actually seeing results. That's always the best.

That is so cool to hear. I always try to have guests on this podcast where we can give actionable homework for people. And then. And so scripts are a perfect example of that. So if you want to give any of those today or little snippets from your book for what people can do if they're facing this challenge at work or going through this situation, that would be amazing. So I have some of the chapters of your book here that I would love to ask you about. But first, can you define for us what managing up means? So I'm in my first. Pretty much my first big role as a manager right now. I manage a team of six mechanical engineers. And so I'm sandwiched in between some senior leadership and my team. And I think I know what managing up means. But I'd love to hear from you, kind of like how you define that.

Yeah. And I would love to hear how it's been for you now that you're in the thick of it because you're having people manage up to you, but then you also have to manage up to your leadership. So it's a good case study. I very simply define managing up as how do you navigate and build relationships with people that have more positional power than you? And primarily that's going to be your direct supervisor, but it should not only be your direct supervisor. And we can talk about that because you. You really limit yourself and pigeonhole yourself if you just. If you make your boss your single point of failure and the only relationship you have. Uh, but I think when it comes to managing up, we often equate it with sucking up, brown nosing, ingratiating ourselves. We often think it's only about just making your boss look good. That can be a nice side effect of managing up. But I am a huge advocate and believer in the idea that managing up is actually something you do for yourself to make your job easier, to get the clarity you need to be successful, to set boundaries and limits so your work can be sustainable, so you can get the recognition, the respect that you deserve. And that's very counterintuitive because we're. We often think of managing up as very other oriented.

Yeah. Yeah, I definitely agree. So I recently talked to my team, my employees, about the power that they have at work, because sometimes when we are individual contributors, and I've spent 11 years as an individual contributor, I definitely have felt like I have no power at work. I'm a worker bee. Or I've heard it put, I'm in the trenches. And also the words individual contributor makes it seem like you're not Even a part of a team, you're just a lone wolf out there. But I recently talked to my team about what power and what authority they do have at work, and they loved that conversation. Um, we also went over how you can. I don't want to call it exercise your power. That sounds like kind of like dictatorship, but how to leverage the power that you do have to make an impact at work, get things done, and have the visibility so that you are promotable someday. But nobody really had that conversation with me. I kind of wish they had, because I'm kind of unclear about what power I have at work. So I want to dive into the power dynamics. What power? I mean, when we talk about power, it almost has a negative connotation. I kind of think about ancient Rome and slaves in Egypt. That's kind of what comes to my mind when I think about power. So how. How does power really work in the workplace? Is it an unspoken thing? Is it. Is it like a. An obvious thing that we should all see clearly? Talk. Talk to me about that.

Well, you're not alone in feeling weird about it, right? And I think what can be tricky for so many of us is that as you rise, and I know this is something you talk about a lot in your coaching and on your other podcast, is as the higher you rise, the less important only your technical skills become and the more important your relational and your influence skills become. Yet no one teaches us this other piece. So it's really common to hit this ceiling where you feel like you see the people who are high performers at some of those higher levels, and you think, did they get some lesson or some guidebook that I just. I was absent that day. I missed that. And it's because they. They understand how power works within organizations. And you're right there. There are people who misuse it and treat it in a very Machiavellian sort of way. But power exists in any human systems. And so if we ignore power politics, it's not necessarily noble. It can be very naive, because it's going to happen around us regardless. Do we want to engage in it in a way that does have high integrity, in a way where we're trying to steer the outcomes to be beneficial for ourselves, for our. Or do we just want to put our head in the sand? So when we talk about power dynamics, to your point, there are some that are. I guess you could call. Call them hard or explicit power, and then there's kind of soft or implicit power. So hard power is things like role, title power. Someone's rank, their position in the hierarchy, their seniority in terms of their tenure in the organization. Someone who has been there six months has very different level of power and social capital than someone who has been there, just broadly speaking, six years. Right. And so, so yes, someone's rank, someone's title, those are hard power. But there's also forms of soft power. And that could be things like your access to information, your. The level of relationships and connection you have with other people. Because I was talking to a group of my students about this yesterday about how if you are someone who fills what's called structural hol in your organization, basically you're a bridge builder between different, like nodes or parts of the network, like let's say between two different functions, for example, or between your team and an external vendor or customer. It's a very valuable place to be and a, a power lever that you have. So it could be relational, informational power. It could also be what they call, like charismatic power. Or based on your personality that just because of the way you show up and build relationships and relate to others, you are able to command likability and power through that likability. And so all of those things, some one person could have all of those forms of power. And I think the, the ultimate move is knowing what to use when, because there are situations where you want to use your role power and your ability to, to tell people to do things, because you can do that. And there are things like another form of power is the ability to reward or punish people, for example, and we want to be extra selective with those, especially punishment. But there may be other levers where you, you want to use some of that relational or informational power. And even if you are lower on the hierarchy, you can still build those, those soft metrics.

Wow. So the thing that you just said that stands out most to me is the likability. And then the opposite of that to me sounds like maybe like insubordination. I've witnessed some insubordination at work. And for anybody who doesn't know what that means, it's kind of like if you're talking to your manager or anybody higher than you and they're asking you to do something and you say no or like, no, I disagree. And it's not just you're sharing your view and having a dialogue, it's like almost like indignant. I don't know how to describe that very well. But do you talk about insubordination at all or like, you know, the opposite of people pleasing when managing up like, how do you know when to say no when you're managing up? And how do you make that graceful or tactful?

I'm so glad we're going here because this was. There's an entire chapter in the book called the Boundaries Conversation, and this was one chapter that I thought I was going to enjoy writing, but not many people were going to care about. And it's the number one chapter everyone asks about.

Really?

Yes. And I think it points to this tension that we all feel where especially there's intersectionality here, like your gender and your race. And there. There's all sorts of factors that may make it hard for you to say no on top of just. It's. It's. How do you. How do you decline a request from someone in power without being insubordinate, without seeming difficult? And there is that fine line between, you want to be a team player, but you don't want to be a pushover. And that takes finesse, because no is not a complete sentence. In the workplace, that may be true in every other aspect of life. But at work, if you were just to tell your boss no, they'd be.

Like, wouldn't get opportunities in the future.

Exactly. And people would think you're rude. A lot of not good things could happen.

Right.

So we have to be so much more tactful about it. And in that chapter, there's a few different strategies I talk about. The first one is just ask questions first. Most of us, when our manager comes to us with yet another request, we fall into one of two extremes. We either the people pleaser in us just has the knee jerk. Sure. Yeah, sure, I can do that. Like, before I do. Yes, me too. Before we even think about it, it's like out of our mouth. Oh, gosh, now I have to. Now you've backed yourself into a corner. Or we're already kind of at the end of our rope and we snap back at the other person and say, don't you know all the pressure we're under? We can't possibly take on one more thing. Neither of which serves you. So ask questions first. Buy yourself some time to kind of recollect yourself. And questions also show you're approaching this as a collaborator. In the book, I talk a lot about moving from this subordinate mindset to a trusted advisor mindset, becoming more of a partner to your manager, which subtly levels the playing field. It starts to level out some of that hierarchy. And when you're a partner to your manager, you're not just they don't. They Say jump. You don't just ask how high. Instead you're engaging in an exploration and a negotiation around that priority. You want to understand who else is this visible to or who else is involved. You said you need this soon. What do you exactly mean by that timeline? What's driving it? What factors are going into it? Do you see this being a one off request or a new response? A group of responsibilities that you need us to take on because that affects our bandwidth as well. And I want to understand that. So I could give you the most accurate answer possible. And so you're approaching it more as a collaborator and you're getting more information about the request because you may not know on the outset if it could be very valuable to work with another team or to have someone on your team be exposed to a different skill set. That could be something you want to make a concession for. So ask questions first. But nevertheless, we all have situations where we still have to set limits. So how do you do that? I think you'll be a fan of this, which is the trade off approach, which is essentially creating a forced choice to say if we add X then Y needs to be adjusted. So I hear these are both important. We've been focused on X since we talked about that at our last staff meeting. Adding yes would change the timeline in this way. Are you okay with that or what would you like us to deprioritize, reprioritize, hand off to a different team, slow down on however you want to phrase it? And you can say, my recommendation would be we do this. Are you okay for us to move forward with that so you can inject your perspective? You don't have to just be totally differential, but the subtlety is you are setting up the frame that you're subtly saying both of these are not possible. And you're also placing the final decision making power back in the hands of the person who ultimately has the higher positional authority. So you're still honoring the hierarchy without just rolling over.

Yeah, I like that. And I had two situations. I learned that what you're talking about with asking more questions and asking for more context when you get a request from above. I learned that the hard way twice this week at work. I misunderstood two different requests from two different people above me at work this week. And it wasn't a disaster. Nothing, nothing blew up, Nothing went up in flames. But afterwards, both times I realized I should have asked more questions. And so I'm glad we're talking about this because it's a theme in my Life right now at work. And so this is our first piece of homework for everybody, regardless of if you're an individual contributor or in a leadership role at any level. If you get a request from above, ask at least one more question than you think you should. And something that we didn't just talk about that I think could be a benefit from asking more questions is if you ask a question like, what do we hope to gain from this? Or what impact do we hope to see from this? Whatever the response is, you might have some other ideas for how you could accomplish the same thing. And so then it becomes a negotiation or a brainstorming session, and maybe there's another win win situation that the person above you making the request hadn't even thought of. So I'm going to take this homework and I'm going to ask more questions at work. Sometimes I see it as I don't want to be difficult and ask questions, but I love that we're having this conversation because it's a reminder you're not being difficult. And I like the advisor topic that you mentioned because, yeah, I'm not just a worker bee for people above me. I'm a advisor, I'm a partner. And I can be strategic as well. I don't have to just say yes and jump through hoops. So that was. I think that's chapter four in your book, the boundary conversation. So I want to go back to chapter one, the alignment conversation. Sometimes we can. We can think that we have alignment and agreement and then realize down the line, oh, we did not have alignment. Um, what does alignment look like at work? And how can you be sure that you have alignment? I mean, is it just over communicating and saying the same thing over and over until everybody agrees multiple times, like, what. What does alignment look like at work?

Yeah, and let me back up and say. So we talked about the boundaries conversation. You're mentioning the alignment conversation. So the book is based around these 10 conversations to manage up effectively and get what you need from the people in charge. And the first five we're talking about, two of them are the most foundational. These are what really help you set up that basis of trust, rapport, credibility, that pave the way for the other ones that are more advanced. So visibility, advancement, money, all of that jazz. And it all starts with alignment. Because if we're not rowing in the same direction as our leader or the rest of our team or our boss's boss, then it's really easy to feel sidelined. It's very easy to feel like I just was working on this for three weeks and now you're telling me the priority has changed and you feel overlooked, you feel resentful. And so we want to make sure you are working on high value promotable work, not just spinning your wheels. And that's what the alignment conversation is about, what you are working on and understanding what does success look like, look like in this role, in this project in particular. So, and the thing with alignment is it's always changing, it's always evolving because your manager is privy to conversations and pressures and they have pain points that for whatever reason they may not be great at articulating or may have just never come up in conversation. And so this, this conversation is about going deeper than just saying, well, what are our objectives for this quarter? Because if you ask a surface level question, you will get a surface level answer. And so the alignment conversation is really trying to get in your manager's head to understand like what are the metrics or what are the topics that are coming up most often when you're talking to your boss or when you have to go report back to this customer or sit in front of the board because guess what, that is where a lot of your managers attention is going to flow. It's going to give you insight into some of the things they may be a bit more anxious about or maybe a bit more likely to micromanage you around so you can anticipate that you can get ahead of some of that. So that's one of my favorite questions there, as is I love to ask what does good performance look like? And then pause and then ask what does great performance look like? Because that helps you get past, you know, the technical surface level answer. It helps you get at some of the behavioral or like character assets that makes someone a high performal performer in this role or what success looks like on a certain project. It just gets to that deeper layer of the onion.

I like that. That's super helpful. You mentioned micromanager. I think a lot of people listening right now work with or for or under a micromanager. Do you have any tips for us?

I do, I do. And, and I'm just, it's, it's so tough working for this type of person. And I'm going to give you a quick tip and then a little bit of a more in depth answer.

Okay, perfect.

The quick tip is usually our first instinct is to not show our work to the micromanager because we're worried about them poking holes and things. And so we squirrel away and we're like, I'm going to dot every I and cross every T and I'm going to make this perfect before I show it to them. But what can inadvertently happen is during that time, the micromanager clamps down more because they fear ambiguity. And when there's ambiguity and they don't know what's happening, oftentimes that's when the micromanagement ratchets up and they're like, where is this at? I thought you were going to have it to me on this day. And make sure you include this and they get more on top of you. And so counterintuitively with a micromanager, you want to show your work earlier. And a strategy I recommend in the book is do something like create a mock up, or if you're putting together a slide deck, put together a skeleton of that or an outline of that and approach that person and say, here is how I'm thinking about this. This is rough around the edges, but I've taken into consideration some of the things you mentioned are important to you in the past. Like I've taken into consideration that we want to avoid these types of words with this client. And we want to make sure we've, we're mentioning this objective because I know that's important to this executive sponsor. Whatever it is you want to show you have attuned to some of their concerns and get their feedback now so that you can bake that in to what you do next and that'll help.

Them feel like they have some level of control, which I think is kind of what a micromanager stems from.

Yes, exactly. And the, the bigger or the longer answer here starts to get into the second conversation, which is about styles. And what we often perceive as difficult behavior is often a matter of difference. And because we may have one preference for how we approach work, and if we are someone who tends to move very quickly, we're more comfortable with things, shipping things before they're like totally perfect. We may perceive someone else who moves a little more slowly, who asks more questions. We may perceive them as a micromanager, like, why are you slowing us down? We need to move quickly. Are you asking so many questions because you don't trust me when to that person, that's how they process information. And I, I'm one of those people. I want to understand, for me, I want to understand the context, how we got here, what factored into this, who's on board. Whereas when I work with people who, in the model in the book I call commanders, they're like why are we wasting so much time on this? Let's just go. Let's go. We'll figure it out as we go. And that's where some of this friction comes in. So if we understand that, we may be approaching this because we have to. Our defaults are two different communication styles. You stop taking so many things personally, and you can make selective adjustments. I'm not saying you have to, like chameleon, turn yourself into somebody else overnight. That's not what I'm saying. But you can make small tweaks that will make your communication and the way you manage projects with this person go so much more smoothly for both you and for them.

I will take your advice. I don't really work for a micromanager right now, but I'll take your advice because, I mean, we have micromanagers in our life. Even outside of work, sometimes family can be micromanaging. And so I like your advice of show your work often. I had an example of this recently where somebody at work was working on a document and they worked on it for a little too long without giving updates. And I felt this micromanager creep into me where I wanted to ask them, hey, how's it going? Do you need help? Can I see a draft of what you're working on? Have you even started? When do you think you're going to be done? And I thought to myself, if I were doing this document, would I want my manager asking these questions? No. But also, I probably would have shared with my manager, hey, I've got a draft going. Here's when I think I'm going to be done. Can I send it to you next week for review just so you can let me know if I'm on the right path or if I'm kind of like in the weeds and you can steer me back to the right path. So I think that that's a great tip, showing your work, and I think that that will give the micromanager a sense of control almost. Not in a bad way, but just. Or maybe they'll feel like they're well informed and they don't need to micromanage. So I have. Yeah, go ahead.

Well, that can happen, too. It's actually, in psychology, it's called the IKEA effect, which comes from IKEA furniture, which is the idea that they found that when people are a part of building something, they tend to feel more satisfied with it. So to. To your point, if your manager feels like they've had an adequate level of input. Right. And they feel like they have their Arms around when to expect something, when an update is coming. And you should contract around those things early. Like if you know your manager has some of those tendencies, then up front say, what level of oversight do you want on this? I'm thinking of checking in on these interviews on these intervals rather. Is that comfortable for you? How do you want to let me know if you want more detail here? So just have those conversations up front. It just, it saves so many, it saves both of you so much stress in the end.

Yeah. And I can see how feedback would be important if you went through a process like this and you were not giving updates at the intervals that your manager was comfortable with. And so a conversation you could have afterwards, if you did feel micromanaged, you could say, hey, I felt, I felt like maybe I didn't check in as often as you would have liked. Can you give me some feedback about how this should go next time? So do you talk about that in your feedback conversation chapter?

That's right, yes. Because.

Yeah, tell me a little bit about that.

Yeah, the feedback conversation. We often think of feedback as something that rolls downhill. We, we don't talk a lot about upward feedback. Right. And it's so important for a few reasons. I'm sure, Allie, you're a great manager. We need more managers like you. And I'm sure you would agree that you value when people come to you and say, hey, here's what could be better.

Yeah, always.

Yeah. And you, of course, you want them to do it tactfully and diplomatically and not be like, this sucks. Just, it needs to be helpful. And so people, leaders want, and there's so many studies to show this, that leaders want more feedback than we, as the employees tend to think.

Really?

Yes. And interestingly, I was doing a talk earlier this week and the executive sponsor was there. She was a woman who was very seasoned, very senior in this organization talking to this erg. And when we got to this conversation, she said when she does internal interviews for internal promotions, one of her knockout questions is she. First she asked the person, okay, what do you think is going well? What, what feedback do you have for, for us? And of course, the person says all these wonderful things and then she asks, okay, what's not going well? What should be different? What criticism can you give us? And if the person gives her a half hearted answer, they're out. Because at that level, she needs people who can speak truth to power and who are, who are willing to take a critical eye to things and who can articulate that in a, in A very diplomatic way. And so it's more valued and it's the fastest way to make sure you don't breed resentment in your role, that you can speak up about these things. Of course, it can be very loaded. So when it comes to the feedback conversation in that chapter, I talk about this. ABC model A stands for accusation. And this is something you do privately before you have the conversation. But get clear on what. What is the accusation you are making or the assumption you are making. Let's use the micromanager example. My boss is micromanaging me would be the assumption you are making. Usually it's some like label, negative label about someone's behavior. B is for behavior, which is how do you know there being a micromanager? What's the behavior that tells you that? So maybe they're asking for approval on every slide before it goes out to a client. And then C is what's the change that you're requesting? And in this case, the change may be, I would love to sit down because maybe something has changed. And I would love to talk about all of the accounts I have and what level of oversight you want for each of these. And so when you have the conversation, you start by setting a shared goal. And the shared goal can be as simple as, I think we can both agree that we want to do what's right by the team here, or I think we can both agree that we want to enjoy working together. It could be as simple as that. But you want to put yourselves on the same side of the table rather than against each other. And then you get into the behavior. I've noticed that over the past couple of weeks you've been asking for me to send you all of the slides for this particular account. Has anything changed? What would be helpful for me is to sit down in our next one on one. I can bring everything that I oversee right now and we can revisit what level of detail you want for each of these. How does that sound? So much more constructive than just saying you're a micromanager, which whacks your boss into a corner to defend themselves.

That sounds like such a beautiful and constructive conversation to have. And I like that you start with the assumption because that can kind of be in our head. That can be something that maybe we're imagining. And then you take it to behavior which brings the balloon back down to earth. Like what's the actual behavior that they are doing? And I bet if we think about assumption and behavior, maybe they're contradictory. Like maybe I'm assuming Something, but their behavior is actually not that. And so, yeah, that makes me think, if I'm observing behavior, that's data. That's not theoretical. That's not something I'm making up in my head. That's like, you have been asking a lot of questions about this and maybe it backs up my assumption, or maybe I'm noticing a behavior and I'm assuming the wrong thing. Correct. So I really like that. Okay, so we've talked about the alignment conversation. Chapter one. Chapter two, style. Oh, we didn't talk about styles. What is this? Tell me about this.

We did a little bit. So we talked about how people, like, for example, if someone is being more critical, they're asking more questions. That may be a stylistic difference. And like I said in the book, there's these four styles I mentioned briefly. The commander, that's someone who is highly dominant, lower on sociability. So they are very focused on results. They move quickly, they aim high. They care a lot about the bottom line, less about how. How everybody feels about the situation. Then we have a cheerleader. A cheerleader is also high on dominance and high on sociability. So they're more outgoing. This is the person that may tell a lot of stories, or you can appeal to them through words like mission, vision, opportunity, possibility. They care a lot about optics and reputation. Then we have the Caretaker. Caretaker. Low on dominance, high on sociability. Opposite of the Commander.

That's me.

Yes, same. And the caretaker values stability, harmony. They want to make sure does everybody feel supported and heard. And they more so like to build relationships one on one. I. I definitely see the caretaker in you because you care so much about, like, growing your team. I do, yes, exactly. Very caretaker. And then last is controller. And controller is low on both of those dimensions, dominance and sociability. So this is the person that really values precision, accuracy, excellence. They ask a lot of questions. They care a lot about the data. They tend to move more slowly. They're very thorough. Sometimes they can come off as rigid because of all of that. But this is the person you really want. If you need help with, like, systems methodology, you need someone who's following all of the regulations and protocols and rules for something.

Wow. As you're describing these four, I'm picturing in my head all my co workers and I'm like, he's that one. Or. Yep, she's definitely in that category. So if I. And interacting between all these styles is a task in itself and oftentimes I think at work, why isn't everybody a caretaker? Like me. Do you not care about your team and how everybody feels? Or I'm in a meeting and I'm thinking, people are not feeling good in this meeting right now. Like, we need to change something. And I'm just sitting there silently, so uncomfortable. But if I wanted to hypothetically go from Caretaker to cheerleader, what would that transition look like, and could that be a good transition?

I so appreciate you asking this. Almost no one has asked me that can I switch my style? And personally, I feel that that is, like, the ultimate hallmark of professional maturity, is that you can recognize that, yes, I have, like, a baseline that I tend to default to, but responding to what the situation calls for, that is maturity. And you can absolutely do that. Right. This comes down to that skill of having situational awareness, being able to read the room. Because there may be times where you need to lean more into a Caretaker style. The team needs someone to rally them and motivate them and be more inspirational and tell a customer story about how the product helped someone so that they feel more engaged. Right. You may need to be more gregarious and outgoing in that way. You may need to care more about optics because there's something that's politically important or touchy, for example. And so it's really much more about understanding what mode is needed here to get to create the desired emotion and to reach our goals. Sometimes you need to lead into the commander side, because sometimes decisive action and someone saying, this is what we're doing. I'm sorry, not everybody is on board with it, but we're moving ahead with this. Sometimes that's what's needed.

Okay. Oh, cool. So I'm going to read the. So I've read the first few chapters of your book. I'm going to read the last five, which we did not talk as much about in this episode, but I encourage everybody to buy a copy of Managing up, because no matter where you are, I mean, everybody. Not everybody is managing down, but everybody's managing up. Thank you so much for this. I feel like. I feel like I got a lot out of this, and I think our listeners got a lot out of this as well. So before we end this episode, how can people get ahold of you?

You can find me@mountingup.com and you'll find all of the details, the links to purchase the book there. And make sure you fill out the form on that page, because we have a vault of all of the different scripts and templates and worksheets from the book that you can take and tweak for yourself. So just make sure you sign up for those.

Awesome. And if you are watching this on YouTube, I'm going to put the link to that right in the description. So thank you so much for this. This was such a valuable episode. I'm so glad you were able to join us today, Melody.

It was so fun. Thank you.

All right, thanks, everybody for tuning in and I will touch, I will catch you in the next episode.