[ENTREPRENEURSHIP] Ep. 455 How to Scale Your Business Without Burning Out with Allison Maslan

Welcome to the U Turn podcast, my friend. This is Ashley Stahl. I'm your host and you are in the right place if you're ready to create a business, a career, a personal brand, or just a life that you're so proud of. And every single week, we want to support you by bringing you PhDs, subject matter experts, psychology practitioners, business leaders, all here on the show to elevate your success in business and also in life so that you can leave the legacy, you can amplify your authority, and you can really skyrocket the amount of opportunities you're creating for yourself in your career, whether you're corporate or you're a business owner. And if you are new here again, my name is Ashley Stahl. I'm an international bestselling author of the book U Turn. Get Unstuck. Discover your direction, design your dream career, and most Importantly, I'm the CEO and founder of Wise Whisper Agency. I'm a top 100 TEDx speaker on the Internet and I was so inspired to create Wise Whisper and help clients craft their signature talk. We've helped hundreds of clients craft their talk rock. And we've also helped so many of them land spots on some of the biggest stages in the world, including the TED and TEDx stage. And so I am here on a mission to help every change maker I know impact millions. Also, before we get into this episode, shout out to our friend Andy B. Mackin, the artist that has gifted us this sick new music for the podcast. Let's get into this week's episode, U turn Friends, it's Ash here and I'm really excited to bring someone so special on the show. People have been all around me mentioning her name, singing praises about her network. She has an incredible network called Pinnacle Global Network. I'm going to ask her all about it. Her name is Allison Maslin and if you haven't heard of her before, today is the day and we are going to talk about all things business. Not only is she the CEO of Pinnacle Global, but she was recently named one of the top 10 female entrepreneurs to watch by Forbes magazine. She is the Wall Street Journal best selling author of Scale or Fail. Very important thing to talk about, which was endorsed by Damon John, who also endorsed my book Small World and Barbara Corcoran of Shark Tank. She's built over 10 successful companies over the past four decades. Over the past 15 years, her and her team business mentors have helped over 150,000 founders scale their businesses, fast track their success and create more meaningful lives. And a lot of this comes through her company, Pinnacle Global Network, which is one of Inc. 5000's fastest growing private companies. So today we're going to talk about business habits, scaling, empowering yourself, empowering your team. Without further ado, thank you so much, Allison, for being here.

Oh, thanks, Ashley, for having me. Excited to be here.

Me too. I mean, honestly, any woman who owns a network, I have a little kids, a kinship with them. Like, I don't know if you know my friend Tracy Holland, but she's really big in. In this sort of a thing. And there's something special about you all who are here to build community and create the value that comes through that. And I was just talking to a fractional CFO yesterday, and she said to me, have you heard of Pinnacle Global Network? And I said, that's funny. I'm talking to Alison tomorrow.

Oh, really? You're making an impact.

Yeah.

Good. I think community is so necessary, and as a business owner, it can be very lonely, and things are changing in the marketplace minute by minute. So when you can have the certainty of having a community, having the, you know, support, it really helps you to navigate in growing your business.

I want to go back to when you did not feel like you knew what you were doing in business and maybe something happened that shifted things for you, moved things along for you. What was that thing? Because I feel like people have big breaks or little breaks when they keep going. Can you take us into that tipping point or that moment where you shifted?

Yeah, I think we all kind of think we know what we're doing until we realize we have no idea what we're doing. And that can happen at various stages in your business growth. There's a saying, new level, new devil. So if you haven't been there before, this is, you know, there's always new challenges, new things to learn. But the big shift for me was quite a few years ago in my early business, I had. This is Pinnacle Global Network is my 10th company. So if I. I'm taking you back to my first company, which was a full service advertising and PR firm. And I was helping my. Me and my small team helping companies to grow through our marketing services. And we worked with Ben and Jerry's and Supercuts and Charlotte, Russ and Allstate, these big companies that had thousands and thousands of employees. And I was kind of honestly flying by the seat of my pants. In the early days. I had a knack in marketing, but I had no idea how to grow a business. And I definitely didn't know how to scale a business. So as it was growing, it started growing bigger than me and I just didn't know how to manage it all. And I was a bit of a control freak. I thought that I had to have my eyes on everything and, and everyone, which is impossible, you know, as you grow. And so it started to really break me down in complete exhaustion and stress and panic and then frustration and resentment and, you know, all the different phases I went through. My daughter was just under 2 years old at the time, so I was, you know, trying to manage being a mom and I felt like I was failing at everything. Even though the business was succeeding on one level. We were taking care of customers, making money, but I was imploding internally. And so what happened was I ended up having a car accident just because of the stress and exhaustion that almost, you know, I almost didn't make it. It was pretty severe. So when you have a wake up call like that, it really is the universe going. Something is not working here, so you need to rel and see is this the direction that you want to go. And so the thing is that I knew I loved business, but I knew I didn't want to live like that anymore. And if I was going to move forward, I needed to figure out a better pathway forward. And so that really became my, my search to figure it out. How do you scale? How was it that my clients had thousands of employees and they were, you didn't see the CEO standing over everyone like an orchestra leader, you know, and that was the beginning of, of our scale up method and, and how I went on and built businesses that didn't depend on me.

This is an interesting thing for us to talk about is scaling because I think a lot of people get their ducks in a row maybe as a new business owner or a seasoned business owner, and they think it's time to scale and then they come up with all these problems, right? Like maybe they scale too fast and they're not keeping any profits. All the profits are going back into. Then there's cash flow chokes. Maybe they need to trial people and they trial five people and all of the people fail the trial and now they just spent a bunch of money. I know in my experience with scaling, I had a webinar that in like 2015, it was the beginning of Facebook ads. I put my webinar up and we did about five or six million dollars off of a E course on how to get a job. And I didn't know how to manage money. I didn't know had a managed team. I was like 26 years old. And I ended the business with half million dollars of debt because my webinar stopped converting, so we stopped being profitable. I held onto my very expensive team. I kept spending on ads, and next thing I knew, and you know what it was, people would say to me, you did it once, you could do it again. You could fix this. And what I really should have done, looking back with the wisdom I have now as a businesswoman, is I would have said, wow, that's so great that that worked, and what a profitable funnel. Let me cut this off right now. Let me cut this team and keep this million or $2 million profit to myself and let it change my life. But instead, I kept fighting. And so I would love to kind of get into the head of somebody. It sounds like your agency was working. I know a lot of PR agencies that they struggle with retention. I hear that all the time. So I'd love to hear, number one, like, why do you think your firm and your agency was working? Like, that's not always the story of a lot of people where they're like, oh, it just. Clients keep coming, and I'm so busy and I need to scale. We hear, like, clients just keep slipping away, but we're doing a good job, but they don't see us important or whatever it is. So can we start with why do you think your agency was doing so well? And what would be the first or second thing to start to think about, to start to scale?

Yeah, I think we did great work. I mean, if you, you know, we. We did very creative campaigns. And this was in the 90s, so this is pre. All the stuff that we have now. Yeah. And so it was. You really had to get creative and come up with big campaigns to make these clients stand out. And we were doing well at that, to a certain capacity. You know, that was where, you know, things just started to implode because I was having trouble having. Getting my hands around everything, which I shouldn't have been doing in the first place. But I didn't know that at the time, because with leadership, what you want to do is bring up other leaders, empower your team. So that's what I would. If I were to go back now and really understanding what scaling is, would be build that leadership team that is not. They're not just implementers, but they're strategic thinkers and strategic decision makers to be able to meet with the clients and come up with campaigns and, you know, determine what is, you know, the next right step for them or for the company. And I just, you know, I was in my own way. And I think a lot of business owners are. And you know, what we had been doing was working. Same thing for you. What you had been doing was working. But there's a saying when you think.

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That many of you may have heard is what got you here won't get you there. And that's why there are many phases there. We see five phases for scaling a business, but there's just, there are these evolutions and you really, the company has to restructure itself at these phases of growth. And because we are creatures of habit and we do what we do and what we know, it's, it's hard for us to let go. And that's where I think the big sticking point is.

Yeah, I love this. And I feel like I was reading a newsletter the other day, I think by Cody Sanchez, and she was talking about how every business has hammers and nails. The hammer, she says, is the owner that drives it in, it drives the vision. The nail is the thing that holds it in place. Great team members. And sometimes, and she was talking about how sometimes you, as a hammer, you take advice from nails. And it's really the hammer's job to see the whole picture. Right. It's the entrepreneur's job to see the whole picture. I've really struggled with this because I think the women on my team are spectacular and I value how intelligent they are. So I, and I do see that they've run many businesses. My operations persons are brilliant. And so for me it feels natural to say, well, what do you think of this strategy? What do you think of what you're seeing with customers? What do you think? But sometimes, and maybe it's not necessarily from this team, but I've been on many teams. I will hear feedback that inside of me. I don't want to agree, but I don't want to have such an ego about me that I'm not seeing what the people around me are sharing. And so I've constantly struggled as an entrepreneur to find that sweet spot, spot of trusting my vision and ability to see but, and, and not poo pooing the wisdom that might be around me. So I, I love, I would love your feedback on this dance because it's really hard sometimes to trust yourself, especially when it comes to strategies like I've done strategies where I can see there's one little tweak and it's going to work, but it hasn't been working and the people around me are like, it's just not working. Toss it. And I have to dive deep inside of my own intuition and keep going. So, yeah, any, any feedback on that for entrepreneur?

Well, it really is a balance. I think the thing to understand first of all is whatever your big vision is, and you've got to have complete clarity on that so you know exactly where you're going so you can communicate it to the team. But there's a part of the evolution of your company where the vision has to shift from your vision, Ashley, to your company's vision. So I had to go from the Allison vision to the Pinnacle Global Network vision. And so, for instance, one of the things we do with clients and we encourage them and we have in our company is called a vision committee. And so we have a volunteer board. And their role is to be galvanizers of the vision throughout the company. And I'm not on that board. So it really is that it has to have a life of its own outside of you. Now. You ultimately are going to make the final, final decisions now, even with a full leadership team. And you know, we have leaders that they're making decisions all day long without me. But when it comes to direction of the company or adding a new revenue stream or something that's, you know, pretty pivotal, I get to have the say in that. Of course, I get to have the final say in that. I do think that it definitely is tricky because if someone brings you an idea, for instance, of a new revenue stream or a new marketing strategy, oftentimes the first thing that comes up within us, and I've experienced it many times myself, is, oh, we've done that before. That's not going to work. That doesn't work in my industry. And so forth. So I have learned to stop and recognize that that's coming up and really listen. And if I'm not sure or even if it's maybe a no, I say, you know what? Let me think about that and get back to you. Because oftentimes when I can give myself 24 hours, 48 hours, or just some time away, I look at it differently. And we've had some of the best ideas for our growth and changes, really, from the team, and I love that. But if, you know, and in the early or years, I would say, oh, no, that doesn't work. You know, we've done that before. I might cut them off something, you know, and that doesn't inspire them to continue to be creative around being the vision forward. So I think it's just. It's a good balance, but it. It needs to go in that direction, and then that will free you to really be thinking about the big moves for your company. Yeah. You know, the big, you know, new direction for where you want to go.

I have a friend who's a mom, and she had this really honest conversation with me recently over coffee. She has a company with like four employees, and so it's. It's small. It could be bigger. She's doing great work, but she literally leaned into me and she said to me over coffee, ashley, I want to be honest, I just want to make a ton of money from this company and be a mom. And I. And she said, and I have no idea how to motivate my team with a vision of me making all this money. And I'm somebody who has so much respect for people getting what they want out of the things that they're creating. So to me, I have absolutely no judgment if she wants to have a cushion in motherhood. What do you say to people who maybe they have a vision and it's harder to get other people behind it?

Yeah, I. I think that that's a challenge for a lot of companies. So the first thing is, you know, if you're thinking about this woman, for instance, so her deal is that she wants to make a bunch of money, and there's nothing wrong with that, but your team isn't going to be super motivated that you want to make a bunch of money. I mean, yeah, not that they're not going to work hard, but I can't say that they're going to get out of bed going, I really want to make her a lot of money.

That's what I told her.

Yeah, I think it's getting to the deep you got to get to a deep, there's got to be a deeper why there has to be a mission. What is the impact that you're going to make for your customers, your employees, your communities in one way or another. So for instance, in our company, we help CEOs scale and it's transformational because when they get out of the day to day and have the scalable company and yeah, they make a lot more money, they're able to make a difference for, you know, their team and their families, their team's families and their vendors and their company. It's just so far reaching. And at the same time, as we grow, our team grows and they get to have a transformational experience together as well in giving back. And so I think you've got to find that emotional driver number one. And then number two, it's important to find out what are the dreams of your employees.

Yeah.

What is their vision? What do they want in their life? And if you can find an intersection between your vision and their vision, that really is the fuel to the fire to move it forward. Because if they can see that, you know, by growing, this helps them do this, and if they do this, that helps the company do this, then you've got a great symphony happening.

I love the word symphony for that. It's interesting. Like, I've had such deep loving bonds with the people that work for me and I never really see them as working for me as much as with me. And I know that that's hard for some people to create. Do you have any thoughts on how you can find unicorns? Because I know a lot of people want to find that amazing hire that can change their life. And I have plenty of those at my company that I'm very proud of. I don't know what I'm doing to have them. I can't give a tip. The only tip I've I can excavate is when you get one, ask them who the best one they know for that Other thing is that you need and top talent recognizes top talent from the past 10, 15 years of their career. They'll say, there's one person this good and it's that one, and you find them. But other than that, like, do you have any thoughts on how to recommend people find them?

Yeah, I'm, I'm a big believer in energy in business. So you know, what you put out there, you get back. And so if you have a strong culture that is captivating, you're going to start attracting people to you and you're going to have, you know, you've got to get that good base, of course. But when they're out there, like you said, talking to people and so forth. But it's, it's the vision. If your vision is so attractive and your culture is captivating, meaning people are working together, they're collaborating, they're making a difference in the world, they feel like that they're really contributing. The word is going to get out there. But if you're placing ads and things like that, you want to lead with your culture, not the position that you're trying to fill. And, you know, because these employees, they're looking for a home, they're going to spend more time with you than often family members. So they want to find a place where they can feel connected, where they feel like they can really contribute and make a difference. And so if you're not leading with that, then you're just competing with everybody else that's offering the same type of employment. You're not going to find superstars that way, you know, so the other thing too is it depends on the type of position that you're looking for. I personally, for the leadership positions. And this is. Once you have grown to, you know, a certain level in your business, you're scaling up. I like to bring in people that have already scaled up a company very successfully because they've been there and they, they know what that landscape is like. They, they know they can do it and they're bringing that to you. These are very quality people and they, again, culture matters. They want a place that they feel like that they can be really appreciated and that they can get to get to work and make a difference.

Okay. You talked about the five stages of scaling. I don't know if we have time to go through all of them, but I would love to just get a little overview for my note takers who obviously they need to pick up the scale or fail book, but would love to just hear a little bit more about those stages.

Yeah, how about I'll just move through them very quickly?

Yeah, let's do it.

Okay. So phase one is the seeker and this is the startup and everything is on you. You're excited, you're putting your ideas out in the world, but there's no scaling happening here because it's you and you and a partner. Then you move into phase two, which I call the pioneer, and that's where you're in the thick of your business. You're getting your hands dirty. You're really optimizing your products and services. You're starting to build a small team, you're getting more clear on your avatar. But this is where business owners get stuck when they feel that they have to have their eyes on everything. Like I was talking about being that control freak. And so if they don't ever get beyond that, they're going to stay stuck in phase two. And you're at about 500k to a million in revenue at this point. Now, if you start, if you continue to grow and you're adding on team members, you're going to move into phase three, which I call the ringleader. And the reason I call it the ringleader is because it's a bit of a circus. In phase three, you've got more people, you've got teams within your team, like maybe, you know, marketing team, a sales team, admin team, finance team, so forth. And the biggest mistake that business owners make here is that you are bringing people on the team before you understand what success looks like for the role. So if you're going to bring somebody in, let's say a director of marketing or you're going to bring somebody in, in accounting, you need to be super clear on what they are reaching for. Like, if they hit their goal and they're super successful, what exactly does it look like, down to the metrics, down to your bottom line. And the formula we look at is that every employee should bring in three to ten times what you pay them to your bottom line. And so how, in what way? So if it's customer service, they drive up your retention 15%. If it's accounting, they save you 300,000 in the budget. You know, so there's, there's all different ways to approach it, but you need to be super clear because if you're not, then you get frustrated because they're not meeting your expectations, but really they don't understand your expectations. So then you jump in to save the day because you're, you know, like, this isn't happening. And then you're up all night, you know, fretting about it with your significant other or your mother. Yeah. And so this is where business owners get burnt out. You know, they're on that hamster wheel and. And so forth. Now the shift that has to happen to move into phase four is you've got to shift from being a boss to being a leader. So you start empowering your team. Instead of telling them what to do, you stop giving the answers. You help them to think for themselves. Like, what would you do in this situation? How would you handle this? Or put a plan together and present it to the team. And you start to cultivate these leaders, these shining stars that start to rise up and they start asking the important questions like, how do we increase profits? How do we create a better customer journey? And so at this point now, your vision and your values become so entrenched in the company. You move into phase four, which is co creation phase. And this is where you're working with the team, like you said, to develop and implement the vision. But now you can start to slowly step back because your team's got it handled. And that's such a powerful feeling. That's how I'm able to live in Mexico five months of the year while my team is running the company. And I can be the visionary CEO focused on the future of where we're going. And that takes us to phase five, which is where that's the goal. It's, you know, a successful company is not one that just makes a lot of money. It's. It's one that is founder independent. Because at that point you have choices. The, the company's worth a lot more money. Because if I want to buy your company and I see it's going to tank the day you leave, then I'm not going to be interested. And only 17% of businesses are saleable. So it's super important to start developing your business that way. From the get go. Is constantly thinking, how do I replace myself in this and this and this. So phase five is the visionary phase. And that is where, you know, you now have this team managed company that can run without you and you can, you know, I love my business, I love our community. So I'm, I'm still here and, and part of it, but from a, from a different perspective. I could sell it if I want. I, I don't want to. But you can acquire other companies, you can add other revenue streams. You could bring on a CEO and move to the chairman of the board. You have choices at that point.

So that feels so good. Even if you're about stage five, I'm like, I want that. For everybody listening, a couple questions just about that journey. I feel like I know a lot of people and I've been one of them. Where I go from stage one to stage two, you were talking about, or maybe it was stage three, where it's 500 to a million and you don't want to be a micromanager. I'm actually the opposite. I'm not a micromanager. The problem is I delegate and I oversee, but I'm very Trusting. And sometimes what's got me stuck in my scaling stages is that I believe people that come in as new hires and they're like, I'm an expert at this, I've got this. I'll let them ride for a while and then I'll check in and be like, oh no, this isn't, the results aren't happening. And then I need to go back in and do the job myself or something like that. But it's absolutely not my default setting to be the micromanager. So what would you say around like, I guess, finding the right talent, like we talked about finding unicorns and culture, but like really making sure you have people that you can step away with.

Yeah. I mean there's a saying, inspect what you expect.

Yeah.

And, but you know, and, and when you, when you're smaller, you're, you're gonna need to do that.

Yeah.

You're not gonna come in with a full on leadership team.

Yeah.

So I'm not in a place, my company where I'm inspecting what people are doing and so forth. Right. It's not that I'm not seeing them and we're, we've got a big event happening in a couple weeks. So there's a lot of, lots, lot of decisions to be made. I'm going to be on stage. I need to know what I'm talking about and how the space is going to look and all of that. So, so yes, it's still, you're still there. But there's, you know, you, there's four departments that ultimately you want leadership in and that's going to take the pressure off of you. You do have, you want to have people that hold themselves accountable. Ideally, that's, that's the goal. You don't want to have to be, hey, do you have this thing? I've been waiting for this thing. I mean, nobody has time for that. We're not here to babysit. We're all adults. But ultimately there are four quadrants that you want leadership in and that is marketing, sales, operations. So operations would be anything to do with your team. Systems, processes, finance, legal. So it's a pretty big quadrant there. And then the last one is whatever you sell. So for instance, you, with, with TED Talks and things, you would have a director of the TED talks or director of, you know, client communication or something like that. And we have a director of mentoring that runs our, our mentor department and the mentors that work with our clients. So once you have that leadership in place and you're not going to do it all at once. It could take a few years or you know, longer to be really build that solid leadership team. They are the ones that are inspecting, you know, they are the ones that are help directing. But even for them, their role is to build leaders within the team that are reporting to them. They, you know, because the tendency is for everybody to come in and ask them or you questions. You want to say, you've got this hard enough, you can make this, this decision. You don't need to come. What do you need to know to never ask me that question again?

Yeah, I love that. And you talk a lot about systems that facilitate scaling. So let's say that it's, you know, you've talked about services based business. I'm a service based business. I know that product might be a little bit different. When you think about somebody who's really starting to scale, what are some systems that come straight to mind that are just like the first thing in your wheelhouse that you would want to impart to somebody?

Well, for a service business, one of the scalable models that we use, and it's actually what we use in our company, we call it replicate your talent with a team. So for instance, let's say that you have an accounting firm and you're just a genius at the way you do accounting and save people money on taxes and so forth. And, and you know, you're following kind of how, how people are trained, but you have your own process that makes you just magical at what you do. So as you start to build your team of other accountants, you want them trained on your signature process. So for, in our case, we have a method called the scale it method and we take people through those five phases. Right. That I just shared with you. Now our team of mentors, they're all brilliant, they've all built very successful companies of their own. But I don't want them just to come and go rogue and do whatever they want with the clients. I want them to have a system to follow. Yeah, a roadmap to follow. Now it's nimble because all our clients are different. Different industries, different goals, but they have a process to follow. And that way the client feels like, oh, I know I'm following a system. The, the, the mentor feels like they have a system they're following and then we're able to make sure that everybody is getting a great experience. We can measure from that system. So if you have a service based business, you know, get a signature, get signature process throughout your company, how you work with how your customers are taken care of, how they're checked into, how you help them to succeed, and whatever you know, your offering is. But everybody needs to know those processes and those tools and be trained on them.

What have I not asked you about scaling that if somebody forgot everything from this episode and all they took away was one thing that you would say, please don't forget the importance of this thing.

I'd say, why, why would you want to scale? I mean, if someone has a small business, two or three employees, and you know, they're making decent money and they're, they're okay with that, that is fine. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. But the thing is that ultimately there will come a time that you have to look at your business as an asset, something that you're growing for the next phase of your life that you can pass on or you know, because otherwise you're just going to shut your business down because it's all dependent on you.

Right.

And the advantage of scaling is there's three things. Number one, you get your life back because now you have.

That's a pretty good appeal.

Yeah, right. Probably why you got into business in the first place. Otherwise you would have a job. Yeah. Number two is that you help a lot more people when you scale. If it's small, you're limited. You know, if I was just doing the coaching, I would be able to help X number of clients. That's it. Right now we're unlimited. And then the third is that's how your, your revenue and profits start to double, triple, quadruple and really break through because now you've got this multiplier.

This has been such a fun conversation and it's got me thinking. My final question is people who scale too fast, how do you know you're doing that? Because a lot of people know they're doing that when it's happening and it's not working and they're in a bad spot. Like how do check in with themselves around that?

Well, being organized around your finances is critical. And that same saying that I said earlier applies that what got you here won't get you there. So even the finance team that you had early on, you need to have a more sophisticated one as you grow because you can, you know, really implode on the cash flow side. So just bringing in a lot of top line revenue without growing your bottom line, you can only sustain that for so long. So you want to have a healthy profitability. So you need to figure out what is that percentage of profitability you need as you scale, is it 10, is it 15, is it 20? So then if I'm at a million and I go to 5 million, I go to 20 million. We want to keep that same level of net profitability as we go along. So you just want to, you know, keep your eye on that. And, you know, sometimes it's going to go a little up, sometimes it'll be a little down because you're investing more in your business. But, but yeah, you, you want a sustainable business. There's lots of companies out there that were just, just kind of a flash in the pan and then they were gone, you know, just as fast as that. And you don't want to be that type of company. So this idea of stepping back to move forward, you know, we're always go, go, go. You know, we're like driven entrepreneurs, but you can actually move faster and a lot less stressful. Step back to assess where are we at, what do we need, where do we need to go? What do we need to do to make that happen? And that means you're going to be really strategic along the way. And that's really what we help our clients do when we're helping them scale, to make sure they do scale sustainably.

Oh, that's the, and that's the thing, like, I would love for everybody to know, where can they find you, who should be joining Pinnacle and where should they go? Because I think there's a lot of people listening that this is going to be a really good spot for them.

Yeah, fantastic. So the first start would be my book, Scale or Fail. And you can get that on Amazon. You can also check on our website, which is pinnacleglobalnetwork.com and there's all kinds of information there. You can see all kinds of videos from our clients and so forth. We generally work with business owners that are at 1 million in revenue because at that point you're really ready to scale. You know, you do have at least a handful of employees and because in, in the early days, you're just trying to get more clients and that's an important phase you need to go through. So most business owners come to us, they're in about phase three of what I shared with you, and they can be stuck there, you know, for decades. And so we get them untangled and help them to have a more scalable model, build that team managed company so that they can have that founder independent business.

Thank you so much again for coming on the show and I'm excited for everybody who checks out Pinnacle.

Yeah, thank you so much for having me. I really enjoyed it.

Foreign.

Thanks for tuning in to the U Turn podcast. I hope you learned so much in this episode and you're putting it into action today. We would love to hear from you. Slide into my DMs and Ashley Stahl or leave a written review if you're inspired. It would mean so much to us. Be sure to subscribe to the show because as you know, the more subscribers we get, the better the guests we can bring you. And in the meantime, if you're looking to skyrocket your personal brand and impact millions, head on over to wise whisperagency.com to learn more about how we can help you craft your greatest talk of your life. How we can help you get booked on some of the biggest stages in the world, even the TED or TEDx stage. We'd love to hear from you. And that's it for this week.

I can try to make you mine But I don't think you like puzzle that I'm trying to solve Always think you know it I've been thinking about you up against the wall it's too late I fell on every phone holding down on Wish I can try and make you mine But I don't think you like guys I don't think you like guys I don't think I should try I guess it's time to give up up But I want to give up give up give up no no no no Scrolling through my phone today I saw a photo of you really thought that I needed all the photos of your and forgot how it felt just to be normal with you Forgot how I felt till I saw you with what you trying to do.

Wish.

I can try to make you mine But I don't think you like us what you trying to do Foreign.

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