How to Stop Micromanaging and Start Leading

You have a business. Becoming a leader is a whole different ball game. Sometimes it's painful. And so we want to learn the road to make it less painful so that you can be a successful leader. That's what this show is about today. On the Scale or Fail Show. Welcome to the Scale or Fail show. I am Alyson Maslin. I'm a business growth mentor and serial entrepreneur. I love business and I love paying it forward and making the road easier for you the business owner. And that's why I highlight business experts who around the world to give you the tools and strategies you need to create dramatic success in your life. And so today I'm super excited because I have an amazing expert on lean leadership and this woman is a friend, she is a client and she is in demand all over the world for what she does. So definitely you're gonna wanna listen to the whole show. So Cheryl Jackiel is the CEO of the Lean Leadership center to help CEOs of people centric companies to optimize how they work with their people. She has over 30 years of experience with continuous improvement cultures and talent management systems. We're gonna talk all about that today. Sheryl has made countless significant improvements in reducing operating costs and leveraging a world class cultural culture to grow your business. As the author of Lean human resources redesigning HR practices for a culture of continuous improvement, Ms. Jakeel brings a tremendous passion for continuous improvement to her clients. So Cheryl, welcome to the show. Thank you, Allison. Thank you. It was a mouthful. But you've been busy over the last 30 years. You got lots to talk about and you know, how does. I was thinking about this as I was thinking about, okay, where are we going to go with this interview? And I was thinking that, you know, you talk about leadership and I think when we're younger you think, okay, well someone's just born that way. How did you. Did you wake up one day and say, I want to help people with leadership? How does that happen?

No, actually the part of this, you know, in terms of this being lean leadership that I felt madly in love with it. I mean, when I found it, I was like, I was hooked. I've never changed ever since then was really, it was becoming exposed to environments or a workplace that was shifting how people worked. It really wasn't so much about the leadership, it's what it did for everyone else. So I was working in a manufacturing environment and I saw people whose jobs was to drive a forklift or to pack cups. At the time I was very happy. I was educated because I Knew I didn't want to do that for a living. But what I saw from Continuous improvement was that really changed their roles. I saw people who had always just had this really simple little job all of a sudden, solving problems, running teams, understanding the whole business, talking about customers. When I saw the quality of life that they had. I've devoted the rest of my life to promoting environments that really make the most of their people. Not just because they can do accounts payable or they're a salesperson or they have a simple task. It really embraces everything human beings bring to the workplace. And so I'm so passionate about it.

I'm excited to dive into this and learn more. I've always thought lean leadership was just incredible. Really tapping into the creativity of your workforce because that's where the genius is.

You.

You know, and I definitely don't have all the answers. So why don't you, why don't we back up and just share? What is lean leadership? Can you give us like, that's just.

Really fundamentally, that's a style of leadership that's gonna be very much what I call bottom up. It's instead of top down, it takes us that typical triangle and it flips it upside down. The role of the leader is to support their team. The closer you are to the customer, the higher up the food chain you are. So it's ever delivering value to the customer. And so the leadership model is those. It's really shifting your understanding. Your role is to help serve and support and build the capabilities of your team. Because if you're the chief problem solver, everything routes through you and it bottlenecks there. And people have so much to offer. I mean, they all have a genius in them. There is no problem any business doesn't have that their people couldn't solve if you just let them. The closer they are to the work, the better they are to solve it. So really lean leadership is just really a highly participative, high performing team workplace. Like that's the gist of it.

Yeah, Well, I mean, that's the kind of. That's the kind of car I want to drive, so. Or actually be a passenger of.

Let's.

I'm saying that correctly. Why do you think it's so important for business owners to learn these practices?

Because fundamentally, I mean, it really helps expand your idea of what your team is for. You know, a lot of people say, well, you got to get their roles clear, you got to get a job description, you got to figure out who's, you know, and a Lot of times, from my experience, those role definitions are so narrow that it leaves the greatest waste of all in almost every business is the waste of their people's talents. It's not that struck me as people think this is like the study of how to be more efficient. It's really how to unleash all that capability. And that takes, that's what makes it so important. If you have any people in your team, you are likely wasting some of their abilities just by the nature of things. It's really, how can I just exponentially unleash more of their capability and learn how to do that? There's people all over the world, on all continents, every country, every company. The best companies in our world are still studying how to do this better. Anybody's figured this out. You just have to do these little things. It's an art form to figure out how to unleash all that capability in your people.

And it's constant because I think even doing this, it's easy to slip back into old ways. Right. So you have to stay top of that all of the time.

Right.

So, and when you, when it is a company that's more top down, which is generally how a lot of companies are, you know what happens when, what happens when that becomes the priority?

I mean, again, in a lot of companies that even think they're trying to do one thing, they still have a lot of top down leadership. I mean, all of a people follow suit. They know what you expect of them. So if it's like, keep your head down and get your job done, they keep their head down and get their job done. But from my experience, it absolutely demoralizes people over time. The more top down it is, the more they're like, even if the thing I'm doing, I think is wrong and hurts your business, I just do it. Because that's what you told me to do. You said, just keep my. Just do what I said. And so then you're not. They know that they're not invited to give their all. And it's well known by the way, having people more engaged drives higher levels of profitability. No doubt about it. And just the other way, the more disengaged they become, the more you're just like, just do your job. And I don't care what you think. The more they, you know, you're really losing an opportunity to build a more profitable business labor market with people moving around. And the millennials really don't like it. Yeah, yeah, we're going to want a place that they contribute that their opinions matter, they're being asked. And when they suggest things that people are taking it to heart and seeing how they can use those suggestions.

Yeah. And I think too, I mean, this is something as a leader in my company, I've had to work on a lot because sometimes it's habit and if someone comes to me with an idea, you know, a tendency is, oh, we've done that, or yeah, great, that's not going to work for this. And you know, you don't want to do that because then even if it isn't the right fit, you know they're not going to be super motivated to do that again. Right. If they're going to get knocked down.

Yeah. And Allison, I so appreciate you saying that. What I know after 30 years of working on this and even talking to businesses that are super sophisticated at it, they're all saying actually developing that style of leadership, really tough. It is hard to make those a habit. In fact, most people I know that are good at it still say they realize they're uncomfortable a lot of the time. Letting their teams do it on their own makes them. They know they're not going to do it quite the same way they would have and they might make mistakes and that's just a hard piece to get over. So one of the things I really try and promote is leaders and business owners talking to each other and sharing that journey and sharing that struggle and, and sharing ideas. I think community support, even inside of organizations really helps because when we pretend this is easy, it's just not the answer to this. It doesn't mean you can do it.

Yeah, I think it's just something that you have to be conscious of all the time. I have this leadership assessment in my book, Scale or Fail, and I pretty much flunked the entire assessment in my own book. I mean, it's something that I just have constantly have to work on. And you know, especially our team members that have been with us over years, I would hope they've seen some involvement and improvement because my team is super important to me. And so what are, where does someone start? Like, what are the things that the business owner needs to do to help boost their culture to shift with this people first mentality?

One way I think that's helpful is really paying attention to how each person in your business connects to the vision. Like a simple way I do that is you have. It's not just tell them what the vision is, that's you giving them the answer. Give them a way to feed back what they hear that to be so like an exercise they'll do is everybody writes on a post it note what they think that vision means and how they see that playing out. What would that be like? And then they put it on the wall and they organize it. It's not about having the answer they come up with. It's that they need to connect with it or what do you see to be your part of it. There's all kinds of processes they can do. Little videos of how they think they fit in or little pieces. But it's trying to make sure for however many people are in your business, each and every one connects to what they contribute to that and just giving that a voice. So that's one of the best ways that drives engagement and an environment that's more participative that way from just connecting them to what the bigger pictures I see.

So they feel part of it. Right. We did this morning. So we do every week we have a two hour meeting with our team, the mentoring team. And I mean, everybody's always on that call. We have a lot of fun. It's just a great way that we connect. But what we did this morning, interestingly enough, I was not even thinking about that. Putting two and two together with the show is I talked about our three values and do what you say you're going to do, give first and be a catalyst for growth. And I had them go around and share what are their values in their life? Like what are their top three values that they live by and how does that connect with what we're doing in Pinnacle? So it's a little bit of a different twist of what you were saying.

Is that one way to do it in a year's time, you can do it different ways. You could do that today and in June do something else. I mean, try different things. You don't get it done, you're telling them something and they get a chance to connect.

Right. Well, I so appreciate that. And we were talking before about being. It's hard because we're generally control freaks, right. We're afraid something's gonna go wrong, something's gonna slip through the cracks, and so you become this micromanager. So for all of those that are out there going, that's me, that's me. Like, how do we get beyond that?

Well, one, just realizing that's a normal way to feel. So realizing when you release that. But the other thing to keep asking yourself, do you really want to be that when you're not present, your team wouldn't know what to decide. Like if you don't let go, it's just like when you raise your kids, if you don't ever let them have the house to themselves, they're never going to know what to do when you're not home. So you really want to create a workspace that you know, when you're not there, they know the values you would have used to make the decision and that they know what to do when you're not there. And so it's just realizing there is no actual way to control it all and it's helping them make good decisions when they're up to bat by themselves, knowing that like the customer comes first. So common principles are always do protect the customer. Customers come first. So really letting them know how you would make a decision that would protect the customer. Letting them know that, you know, it's really figuring out how to support them in making good decisions, talking to them about what they need to make good decisions and realizing you don't want to be the only one that makes a decision. You want to give them the tools to make a good decision.

Right? Yeah. And so, and as we talk on the show about scaling a business, the idea is that, you know, the CEO, the founder is able to step back and, you know, be gone and the team really steps up. I mean that's really the idea. What do you think about. I used to think, Cheryl, that if I just tell the team and if I continue to show them and tell them and show them and tell them that they will get it. And then I have this aha. That. No, actually that's the reason I have to keep showing and telling and showing and telling them because they're expecting that I'm going to show and tell them.

Yeah. So there's really, it's a style of leadership called coaching. A coaching style, there's two key skills. One is asking questions and we try and just remind people it's just an open ended question. So instead of I just keep telling you something, I ask you, like what do you understand this to be? What would you do? Ask more questions to find out what they actually are understanding, what are they getting out of all this? So ask questions. And then obviously after you ask a question, you need to listen really carefully to what's being said. So a lot of leaders, if not almost everyone I've ever worked with, including me, needs to do more listening. Just once you ask those questions, then help share back with that person what you're hearing them say. Not just paraphrasing it, but really here's what I'm getting out of what you're telling me and work from there. And that's where most. And if you say, well how am I going to do that? You can put reminders on your walls like ask more questions, put them in your planner. Who, what when Remind yourself, ask more questions more of the time. I see leaders get this idea right away, but remembering to ask the questions is really, it's building that habit. It's really getting that habit in place that I ask questions more than I tell people what to do.

Yeah, for sure. And maybe even saying something like well, what do you think the best approach would be? Or do you want to put a plan? Why don't you put a plan together and come back and present it to me?

Yeah. A lot of times when people are coming to you for the answer, they're mostly needing reinforcement that you believe in their decision making. They're really looking for you not to give them the answer. Where say I know that you know how to make good decisions. So go ahead. I trust that you'll know what to do to make a good decision. The more you reinforce that, that self confidence that they do know what to do shows up more of the time.

So is there an example you can give? Like, I don't know. I mean I think if companies really see how much they're missing out on opportunities. Like where you've worked with a company and did this and then the employees came back with some amazing golden nuggets that really had an impact in the business.

First of all, I've seen employees solve every small problems, medium problems and any large problems. I've seen them be able to solve really every conceivable problem a business produces. A lot of it is. So I work in a very specific kind of methodology where we teach employees how to get clear what the problem is they're trying to solve to how to get to the root cause of it. So what's really. And basically the root cause is code for if I change this, how will the problem never repeat? So how do you get at I'm actually fixing the real thing. Then they talk about and they explore all the options. So they work, it's a team based environment and they get facts and they understand their options. Then they make choices and then they try, they experiment, they try different options. Things work or they don't and they learn to always measure or assess whether the things they're trying work or not. What you'll find they can't break anything to speak of that way. And actually customers really like it when they come in and know that your whole team knows how to solve problems and cares about the business and helps solve issues for the business. That's just a whole lot better looking than it's all like because I'm so great or we have this few talented people and everyone else just does their job. They love knowing 100% of the workforce is helping make it happen.

Yeah. And you just feel it, you know, you definitely feel that energy.

A lot of those are team skills. It's learning to help your team function like a team. Any one of them can lead. How do they have meetings, how do they brainstorm, how do they make choices? Those are the skills that will help them solve any problem. The tougher the problem you give them, the more shocked you'll be with how fast they can probably come up with some things to try and sort it out.

Yeah, I love that. So you talked about earlier, don't come up with the role first like that. You're really limiting. So where would you start? You know that you have job to fill.

I think it's not so much I wouldn't have roles, but what I would look to add into a typical idea of like have a sales clerk or I have this, you know, I just have a person does my accounting or I have a person just does this. How do you create roles that the rest of the person their problem solving, their teamwork. One thing a lot of employers don't require is people work well as teams that they need to be fully involved in the business that we want your whole self here. And these kinds of companies that want to pursue a continuous improvement approach. Everybody's 100% on the ownership page. You all own it. We are all part of the vision, we're all making it happen. So yes, you do have a role. Maybe you help pay bills or you do answer phones or do customer service. But every role includes in it problem solving, teamwork, helping make sure the customer needs. So it's more enlarge the roles instead of just not having them defined. Just make them big enough. People can do more than most people think think they can. They live up to your expectations, raise your expectation and they will live up to it.

Wow. Yeah, that's interesting I think because I know in the past I've been guilty and in the earlier days, especially because, you know, limited budget, let's find that one person that can do everything. They can do social media, they can do the website. But you know, all of that and that's a little. Then you're Kind of setting somebody up for failure.

Right. This is more the teamwork. And, you know, one of the things we've probably been talking about, about scaling is being able to have the processes and that, you know, you have standard ways things are done. The one main way you can involve them is help them develop those processes as a team. Have those teams, those processes recorded like on the walls based upon teamwork. And then when things don't work right, those are opportunities for the team to go back and say, where did the process let us down? What changes do we need to make to the process? Actually, your problems are great food for their ingenuity to solve it. And the more they know it, it's not a matter of who's to blame. Lean environments never focus on blaming people. They blame promise processes. When the process lets you down, we all work together as a team and we fix our process.

Yeah.

That solves everything there is. I mean, that's what we do. That's how they solve even really big, nasty problems. It's all getting to what in our processes has to change. So make it. Your whole team owns your processes. It's not the owner that owns the process.

We just started not long ago, like a month ago, instilling a systems meeting. And so we were doing it weekly. The team has decided that we don't need it weekly. It has now been put to monthly. But it's just something that we, you know, over the last several years. Yes. And we do have some systems, but there are others that just haven't happened. And so I think it needs to be on the forefront. I'm not on that. I'm not on that meeting. They're owning it, you know, and they're finding their creative ways to do it. Like our creative director, Jared, he's doing his systems on video and explaining how things work. That's better for him.

Yeah. Their own way.

Yeah. I love this. I'm already getting some ideas here. You know, like we're doing our big company meeting coming up next month and, you know, I really need to bring them more into leading it than me. Just had that. Aha. So thank you, Cheryl. And so, and then how can. What is the best way to support the leader to implement this?

And actually, you know, there's the higher level. The group that tends to struggle the most are the middle level leaders. They're the ones that tend to feel like kind of they get squeezed in the middle a bit, but all of them. One thing I do is I like to hook them with other leaders. I've spent a lot of my career visiting other companies that pursue this leadership and hooking them together. There's a lot of places they congregate, but basically it's getting support in different ways. Whether it be what you read or who you connect to. There's certainly even podcasts and webinars. I do find that when you're around inspirational businesses like, I have an upcoming event, I'm bringing 50 people in to see three world class cultures. And the main thing they're there to see is not what products or services they make, they're there to look at how they lead people. And mostly everyone in the whole group will all be struggling with the same issues. They all say, oh, we're the same, we have the same problem. And it's through that support. I think basically give them enough support. Don't expect they automatically know what to do.

Yeah, well, that's what we do in Pinnacle too, right. Because anytime that you're with somebody and they have life challenges, they've been there, done that, you feel at home because they get you and then they can also help you come up with solutions. I think scratching your head and trying to figure this out on your own is painful, right? You just kind of keep coming up with the same advice over and over and over. And so the best way, so let's say someone is listening to this interview and they're like, okay, I love this. What is the best way to, you know. Because I think doing a dramatic change all at once might kind of be like, what is going on here? So would you say it's just, you know, one area of the company at a time? How would you go about this actually?

I mean, I think a lot of times opening up the floor, just start figuring out how to have more two way conversation. Where can you start to invite people into new spaces? You might try it in a place, but it's really not going to necessarily rock your business upside down. If you start saying, you know, at a town hall meeting or a group meeting, I want to hear more from you. The main thing I'd say, if you're going to open the dialogue, listen to what's being said to you. Only go as fast as you can, actually really listen and respond to what's being said. So you can actually damage your culture if when you ask for suggestions, you're not prepared, if you're not going to listen to anything. So just make sure you're prepared to listen. But other than that, they will start to share. Even if you said, I want to make this more participative. Your team will solve that. They will start to share with you what they think that should look like. There's nothing we can't guide you through if you just ask them for their help and they will start to give you ideas.

We make it so much harder than it needs to be. And then the last thing I want to just touch on is the word culture, because I think a lot of times people think culture is, you know, beer parties and ping pong and maybe that is part of it. Well, how do you see company culture?

I mean, culture Just first of all, you have a company culture whether you're aware of one or not. It simply means what are the patterns of behavior that are true in your business? By optimizing culture, it means you make a decision of the kind of culture. So when you just talked about the values you have, that's being really intentional about the kind of behavior you want to see. So values are a great place to start with. And again, lean cultures or continuous improvement cultures, focus on customers come first. We work by standard processes. We're a team. We solve problems so they don't repeat. And the role of leadership is to inspire and support. It's not to tell people what to do. Leaders are here to help everybody do their best work, really.

So to see yourself not as a boss, but a coach in a sense. Right? To elevate other people or to raise the energy around you.

And if you don't know what that means, that's really normal. The Coaching Habit is a really good book to start with. Almost every client I have is all reading the Coaching Habit. It's a really simple little book that talks about how to ask better questions and how to make that your habit. So that's a helpful tool that you might want to reach out and take a look at.

That's really a coaching habit. Okay, so Cheryl, you are brilliant. This, you've been doing this for a long time and I know you're generally working with, you know, some bigger companies. But if some people want to reach out to you, learn more about what you do, what's the best way for them to reach out?

Just go out to my website, www.leanleadershipcenter.com and reach out to me, even through our Facebook group. First of all, I will certainly either help you directly or refer you to other options or places, books to read, other resources. But you know, I've had people reach out to me, even in small businesses. I'll do everything I can to support you. I do some public workshops at times. So maybe, you know, I can support you that way, but I can usually help people make some changes, even if it's giving you some ideas of where you can go visit other companies and see some of this real time and get some new ideas of how you might. How you might do it. So there's lots and lots and lots of resources.

And you have a book, and then you're writing another book. What's the book called?

Yeah. So my book, Lean Human Resources, is really all about these cultures. My expertise is really in human resources and these styles of cultures and where those two come together. So, by the way, you could also reach out to me. I have people call me all the time looking for different kinds of HR help. So if I don't know the answer, I could probably direct you to someone who does schools, management. All of that kind of stuff is. Is in my bailiwick, so. And again, we're all in the Pinnacle family, and I get a lot out of this environment. I'd be happy to help just if I can help you anyway.

Yeah. And Cheryl has been in Pinnacle, what, two years now? Almost. Coming up on two years, that's Pinnacle Global Network. That is our private mentoring and mastermind. Do you mind sharing a few words on how Pinnacle has been for you?

Yeah, it's been, you know, I think it's taken me a while to understand what it means, but my original reason still holds true. Most of the people in my life, my fellow, even business friends, are all working in corporate America. And even the ones that are entrepreneurs, they're either in a business that's fairly far along. I needed a place to connect with people who were doing what I'm doing 24 7. I'm trying to figure out how to build my business. And I needed a place that that's what everyone else is doing, too. And that's really. The longer I'm in it, the more I know that's why I'm here, is I need to be getting that information. I need to be basically sharing that journey with others on the same journey. And this has been a great place to find lots of them at one time. And I realized it just they weren't in my path very easily some other way. I just didn't have another easy avenue to find them. So it's been worth it to me for that reason.

Yeah. Fantastic. Well, we love supporting you, Cheryl, and it's been really exciting, so. And I got to go to Chicago, and that was fantastic. So, anyway, thank you for taking the time and this is so fascinating. I love the topic of Lean Leadership and you are the expert. So anyway, thank you for.

That was fun. That was pretty fun. Yeah.

Great. That was great. So for those of you that are watching or listening, if you are on the audio or the video, you can find the Scalar Fail show on all platforms that have podcasts. We are there. And if you haven't read my new book yet, please grab a copy. It is called Scale or Fail, and that's what we're talking about today. And Lean Leadership leadership ties all into that. All right. And until next time, get out there and elevate yourself because you are worth it. Bye, everybody.

People always talk about they want to be part of seven figure companies. I'm now part of seven, eight and nine figure companies. I've been introduced to some of the largest corporations, Fortune 500 companies, and it's with Alice help. She's kind of expanded my horizons and my capabilities. And I think that's the most important thing where she expands. She makes, you know, what you can do and be successful at that.

Being with Alison and being able to learn who to hire and why to hire and how to develop a passionate, creative, inspired team was really, really important for me because I needed to shift some energy in my business. And I feel like with her help.

I've really done that.

Pinnacle helped me grow my company to where at this point a year ago, I made a million more than I did at this point last year. So I really wanted to break that ceiling. I've hit that ceiling for several years in a row, and Pinnacle has helped me do that by implementing the thought. It's actually just a thought process and how you view your company and how you view what you're doing. I think a lot of us entrepreneurs are hard on ourselves and are hard on our companies when it's not that we shouldn't be that way. So I think it's just looking at things a little bit differently, putting into practice the systems that she teaches us. For example, if you want an example, putting people in place to where I want my business to be at in two, three years. So I've got people right now in place.

And.

And it's wild. It's just like it's all the work is coming in and we're in place and we're not stressed out. And it's just amazing. It's just an amazing place to be.

What I love most about being in the Pinnacle is constant access to support. So whether it be my mastermind group or the recorded resources that Alison has produced for us or the constantly cutting edge information that's coming to us on social media, Facebook ads, how to conduct webinars, you name it, we have a resource for it.

So since joining Pinnacle, we've added 12 new positions to the company. We've increased revenue about 43%, we've increased profit by 111% this year. More importantly, I've gotten out of some roles that I was in like QA manager. And some of the marketing things that I was doing are now outsourced or not outsourced in sourced to a team member. And I've really focused in on running the business instead of letting it run me. Coaching opportunities out there and a lot of times I'm a little bit suspicious. It's a kind of a sales job, you know, are they, are they in it for themselves? Are they in it for me? And at no time have I ever felt with Pinnacol that my best interest was not number one priority. And it's truly an organization and not just Allison and the coaches, but everyone there. It's coming from a place of giving.

And.

Working for mutual benefit. A lot of sharing going on and that's a great team to work with.

Right off the bat.

I laid a foundation for my coaching practice and I increased my prices and within one week I had signed two high paying clients that had basically paid for my coaching program with Allison. And since then my income has doubled every single month. It's been tremendous. But being a part of the community has been the greatest asset. I've been so fortunate and blessed to befriend so many other amazing entrepreneurs, entrepreneurs who I learn from on a regular basis, who always have my back, like minded people that I surround myself with and the environment is so positive. I just cannot speak highly enough of it and I am always compelled to share it with everyone I know. I feel it is the biggest gift to introduce and share this opportunity to connect with this kind of community with everybody that I know. Don't be the company like I was being in business for over 12 years, looking back and saying what did I do in the last 10 years? Do it now. Now is all we have. We don't have the past and we don't have the future. All we have is now. I've been in business for 21 years now and I've worked with a number of business coaches and I watched Alison for four years and the results that hurt her clients had when they worked with her. And I finally decided this is the next coach that I'm going to hire because she is the real deal. She is available to her people. She absolutely cares deeply about each and every individual and the success of their business.

And you know what?

We have to in business, take risks. And sometimes taking risk is hiring that new coach. This is a risk worth taking. There is nothing like it. I can't even explain what the opportunity and the learning that comes with Pinnacle. Don't even think about it. Because if you think about it, that's the number one thing that will hold you back. Just do it. You won't regret it.

You just need to do it. I mean, you have to stop being on the fence.

You have to get off.

The fence is boring. The fence is. Honestly, I was on the fence for.

Oh, gosh.

I was on the fence for maybe two years, and it was a horrible fence to sit on. I hated the fence because the fence kept me stuck. And it was when I finally jumped off the fence that my business skyrocketed.