The SECRET To Selling A Product - How To Sell To Anyone | Jennifer Hudye & Allison Maslan

Is your copy not converting? You think that you're speaking directly to your customer, but they're not hearing you and you're not getting the sales or the traction that you want. Get the answers, get the solutions right here, right now on the Scale or fail show.

The way that I define it is that the goal of content is for people to understand you. The goal of copy is for people to feel understood. Copy is shining the spotlight on your ideal client and really taking them through a journey to coming to the best decision for them. Whereas content can be information education, two different skills. The consistency with sales and copy is you got to take people through a specific process to help them come to a decision.

Welcome to the scale or fail show. I am your host, Alison Maslin. I'm a serial entrepreneur. I am your business growth mentor. I'm the founder of Pinnacle Global Network where we mentor business owners all over the world. Today, we're going to give you the answers that you need so that you can convert your copy into customers. That's right. So that your customers actually hear what you're saying. Saying when you get this down, your sales are going to go up. So you're going to want to stay with us the full episode today. And I'm so excited to have one of the top copywriters in the world, Jennifer Hoodie, who is the founder and CEO of Conscious Copy and Company, one of the top copywriting companies in the digital marketing world, where she helps entrepreneurs communicate their vision and message in a way that inspires people to take action because that is what you want to happen. Her clients have included household names like Strategic Coach, Joe Polish, JJ Virgin, Bulletproof Coffee, Brendan Burchard, Sally Hogshead, Cameron Herald, and many others, including me. Plus, she is founded and co founded four businesses and she's spoken at some of the industries biggest events. Jennifer Hoodie, welcome to the Scale or fail show. I am so happy we finally got you here.

Mm. I'm so grateful to be here.

Yeah.

So, you know, I'm really excited because I don't think that business owners get how much money they could be bringing in if they just got their copy downright. And so we're gonna give you all the answers today. But how did you get on this journey? How did you start out to become the copywriter that you are today?

Yeah, I had no intention of becoming a copywriter when I started out, but I actually grew up in a family of brilliant entrepreneurs and I was actually the only one who decided to step away from the path of the family business. That had been around for over 35 years. And while I was a business student at Arizona State University, it became my mission to prove to myself and my family that I could really create my own path as an entrepreneur. And so I would stay up late after class. I would just start trying to figure out, okay, what is the business that I want to build? And then I had an idea to build an online business helping women with fitness programs. And so as I was starting to build this business, I did what many newbies in online marketing typically do, and I poured thousands of dollars into building my product, which was my fitness program. So I brought in professional videographers and got fancy PDFs made. And I was like, I need a logo and a website. And there was part of me that was kind of shying away from the marketing part one, because I was like, oh, if I just. You know that old saying, if I build it, they'll come. If I just build a phenomenal product, people will just find out about this, and of course, they would want to work with me. So I built my first product, and I did my first launch, and I built it, and they didn't come.

You're sitting there twiddling your thumbs.

All right, I did all the work to get ready.

Yeah. I remember the week of my launch, I had, like, a couple sales trickle in. And I remember having this thought, like, okay, maybe it's the course. If I just make some tweaks to the course, that should do it. And right before I was going to go and spend even more time and money and energy into building out my program, I actually stumbled upon a podcast on the topic of direct response marketing, which was this brand new concept to me. And the two hosts were talking about how if you wanted to sell more of your products and services online, you needed to master this skill called copywriting. And that was, like, brand new to me. I didn't. Up until that point, all I knew of the term copyright was, like, that legal term to reserve a word or a logo. And they went on to explain how copy is, like, really written words that say sell or persuasion in print. And it is one of the most powerful things that you can learn as an entrepreneur because it leverages both your time and your money. So I was like, wow. It was like 18 months until I was getting ready to graduate, and I just felt like this fire under my butt to be like, I gotta figure this stuff out. So I went and purchased all of these courses on copywriting and direct response marketing, and I started to put them into Play. And the next launch that I did, there was 300 people on my email list and I sent out a couple emails and in less than 48 hours, I had sold out 30 spots, which was my goal to my program from just a couple emails. And I'll never forget that evening where I just was seeing all of these sales roll in to my inbox of like people purchasing. And it was in that moment that it was like the clouds parted, I swear. And I was like, this, like this skill is going to help me write the ticket to my own future.

Wow. You know what?

I didn't know that story about you. That is, that is such a powerful story to show the power of copy. And we have something else in common, Jennifer, and that is that I went to Arizona State and they have one of the best journalism schools in the country. So you were around all these writers. But of course, journalism writing is very different than direct response.

Right.

But I started my first business when I was in school at Arizona State. Now I'm much older than you, so we're talking decades before you had yours. But I just think that's, that's so interesting. But you had that, you know, fire in your belly to do this and to learn that at a young age is, you know, it really is such a gift.

Yeah. And I mean, I had so much stuff come up around it too, because I'm actually partially dyslexic, so. So I never considered myself a writer. I was in the business school at asu, but I was like, okay, well if this is the skill I gotta learn, I'm gonna learn it. And realized that I didn't need to be a good writer to be a good copywriter. And so I ended up building that little business as a multiple six figure side hustle in college. And shortly after college, I was running it full time and I started having different people in my industry reaching out to me, saying, hey, we see what you're doing with your funnels. Like, would you be open to helping with our funnel? Would you open to be. To strategize on some of our copy? And it was through that process that I just like fell in love with this skill because I really see it as a vehicle for helping entrepreneurs get their products and their services into the hands of people that can really use what they have. And so fast forward five years later and built the top copywriting company in the industry. And I've gotten to work with some of the most amazing people, including yourself. And it still is, you know, I still have that core Belief that if you have something you really want to share with the world, this is the vehicle.

Yeah, that's an incredible story. And I've been able to be part of your growth and watch your growth, and it's been super inspiring. And, you know, think about it this way. When you master sales, in a sense, that helps you in every area of your life. It helps you in your business, it helps you with your children, it helps you with your spouse. It helps you just out in the world. And to be able to take that skill and get it onto paper and then make it so it sounds, you know, like you and genuine, it really is an art. And we're going to talk about that today because it's. I really believe it's like one of the top three skills that you need in your business to be successful. So what have been some of the challenges, Jennifer, along the way, you know.

On this journey that you've been on?

One of the biggest challenges that I've experienced as an entrepreneur, and then even in copywriting as well, is like, not knowing what I don't know. And I feel like in every single industry and category, there's, like, what the mainstream teachers and then there's what actually produces results. And so, like, even back to my story, where I feel like I spent so much time doing all of these things that weren't actually going to help me produce results. And then, like, along the path, learning, selling, and like, okay, if I really want to grow my business, like, I gotta master this skill. And so I feel like, especially with having business coaches and mentors, that's my greatest blind spot of just being in new territory and not knowing what I don't know. So I'm constantly trying to work with people and mentors and coaches and consultants that can point out my blind spots for me. And then the second thing I would say is getting distracted, like the shiny object syndrome. Seeing something working and being like this is amazing. But what about this thing over here? And just, I think some of the time that I've spent on getting distracted and, like, what would have been possible if I just continue to focus in on what worked? That's my commitment right now. Is simplification.

Yeah, I definitely think that's the word, the theme of the times that we're in right now. And I love that you shared what you went through, because I think a lot of you that are listening right now, tell me, let me know if this is true about you, that you're sometimes getting ready to get ready. You know, I'll Be ready to launch when I have. Once I have all the pieces together, you know, and have it perfect. Whereas if you just put it out there, like I say, don't worry, be crappy, Just put it out there and then you'll get the feedback and you know, you can perfect it along the way.

Otherwise you just. You're waiting forever. And I think. I don't know.

That was in your case, Jennifer, but I think for a lot of people there's a fear of really putting yourself out there. So if I just take the time.

And work more on the website and.

All of those things, it feels like you're accomplishing, but you're not really accomplishing what you truly set out to do.

Yeah, yeah. Just like taking that imperfect action because it's all just testing and feedback. And that's one of the biggest things that I've learned in marketing. Right. Like you could be the most brilliant marketer, but like the testing is what actually tells you if it works or if it doesn't. Like, you can be stuck in theory all day and of course you want to stack everything in, do everything that you know to work. But at the end of the day, like the market is going to decide.

Right.

And it changes.

Right.

Like what's happening right now. So let's talk about copy and content, because I think people think it's the same thing. Can you share with us the difference?

Yeah. This is one of the most important things I think to really understand in building out marketing because oftentimes I'll talk to business owners and entrepreneurs and they'll be like, oh, we need to update the content on our website, or copy. And they'll kind of use them interchangeably, but they're actually two different skills. The way that I define it is that the goal of content is for people to understand you. The goal of copy is for people to feel understood.

I like that. Yeah.

So it's like you want them to know that you hear them and that you get them.

That's copy.

Copy is shining the spotlight on your ideal client and really taking them through journey to coming to the best decision for them. Whereas content can be information education. Usually you're shining the spotlight on yourself. And the example that I'll often give is it's kind of like selling and communication. Like, someone can be a great communicator, but they're not great at selling. But someone can be great at selling and typically they're a great communicator. It's kind of the same with content and copy. Two different Skills. The consistency with sales and copy is you got to take people through a specific process to help them come to a decision.

Yeah, I love that. Can you give an example, a little bit of what you mean?

Totally. So one of the first, when I'll review someone's site oftentimes, and you can do this on your own of your, your own website. Go and look at the homepage and see how many times you use the word like I. And we can help you do this. And we're the experts in this and here's some fun facts about what we do and how we help people versus copy. Shining the spotlight on the person who you're attracting in, say you're selling.

I.

Don'T know, let's pick something. Say you're selling business coaching, right? Then you want to be focusing the spotlight on say, the business owner that may be coming to look for help. And so it may say, you know, are you tired of working day by day and only to see your business stagnant and plateaued another year? And then there's a process which, you know, we can dive into where you first want to address what is their core problem or their core pain point that they're going through and ask it in the form of a question where it may be, you know, do you feel like you're working more inside of your business than on your business? Do you feel like, you know, you started a business to create freedom and you have anything but that? If so, you're not alone.

Right.

Compared to content may just be like, you know, I'm Alison Maslin and here's some fun tips about how you can grow your business. Both are super valuable and copy and content actually interchange a lot. But it's kind of like different thought process.

Yeah, great, great example. That makes so much sense and I haven't heard it explained that way. That's perfect. And so that leads me to what do you see in working with so many business owners? And probably every day you're reading stuff going, ah, what are the biggest mistakes you see people make when they write their copy?

The first one, the first mistake I would say is not following a proven structure similar to sales. It's kind of like, you know, if you, if you show up to a sales call and you're just kind of like, so what's going on? You just hope that you have a conversation and maybe it'll turn into them being a client or maybe not. That's what I see. A mistake happen a lot with business owners and their website where it's kind of just like everything about them and their company thrown up all over their website in no particular order. So really making sure that you're taking them through a process to come to a decision whether it's on your sales page, a landing page, if you're asking for a free gift email, there's some specific keys. The second thing is the mistake of not speaking in your ideal client's language. And I see this a lot. Oftentimes when we're experts in our own industry, we'll tend to use technical jargon that we just assume that our ideal clients know and understand. And when we do that and they read it, oftentimes it will either speak over top of them and they'll read it and they'll say, I don't know what that term means. So that probably isn't for me. I see this a lot in the health field where there will be doctors and they'll. Right. Like, do you have an imbalance of your microbiome? And although that may be true, that they have a, you know, their ideal client has a imbalance.

Right.

They're probably not using that term.

Yeah.

So instead.

Yeah, but what the heck is that?

Yeah. So instead, like, using their language, it's like, hey, what are the symptoms that they may be experiencing? Hey, are you waking up with brain fog? Do you have unexplainable weight gain where you're not eating anymore but you seem to be gaining weight? Are you feeling sluggish and exhausted throughout your day? Using, like, how your ideal client would describe their pain points, their fears, and what it is that they want in their language. And the hint here, because I often have people ask me, well, where do I find that out? And the simple answer is, you ask.

Them, yeah, I know. Isn't that so wild? And then, you know, even though I know that we forget and we just spend so much time trying to be mind readers when all you have to go is, you know, what are your biggest struggles?

Yeah, they're like begging to tell you.

Yeah, I know, it's crazy. And this is the stuff. I teach this stuff. And then sometimes I will even forget that. It's like, we're almost so wired to make things harder than it really is.

Totally. Yeah. Yeah. And you.

And would you say too, using the words that they say, you know, so that people can process the information, you're not just talking about their pains, but you're actually using the, you know, language that on average that people, you know, your ideal client are using?

Yes. Like for batum, if they Say something specific. And you hear that consistently amongst your ideal clients, like, take that word for word and then put it in your copy. One of the things I share a lot in our different programs and workshops and stuff is good copy doesn't necessarily come from inspiration. It comes from really good research. And oftentimes we're like, waiting for the messaging gods to come down and download into us exactly what we're supposed to see, say, on our website. When really it's like going back and look at the sales calls that you've had with your clients. Find the consistency amongst what they're all saying, because they're all saying probably very similar things if they're your ideal clients. And then you take that and you put it into the structure.

Yeah, that's so interesting. And if you have a sales team, go to your sales team and say, you know, let's go back through, write down five bullets from each call on phrases that they're saying, and let's pull them. Or even, you know, asking people in Facebook group things like that. So, yeah, that's super important. Now, in the times that we're in with COVID and all of the changes, there has been more sensitivity out there, more people affected by everything that's going on. What are some of the things that you're learning right now? As far as, you know, this work before, don't say that now. What are your thoughts?

The biggest thing I think, to factor in in these times versus, say, even a year ago is really understanding what drives your ideal client or who you help with now versus before. So, for example, say if your ideal clients are business owners or entrepreneurs, in the even a year ago, they maybe have been using words or terms or been more driven by things like, you know, 10x growth or, you know, growing revenues. And it was more about, like, expansion and scale in certain ways. And now, or, you know, even a couple months ago, they're using more terms around security and safety and certainty. Certainty is so key and like cash flow. So even if you have the same type of client and you're helping them in the same way, understanding what's driving and motivating them now versus before is one of the biggest ones.

Yeah, yeah. And, you know, we're kind of in the thick of that too, with the events and things that we're leading. In fact, we just had a meeting with our team yesterday talking about copy for an event we have coming up in a few months, and we've led this event for 10 years. This is our 11th year, and we had to really look at. Okay, is the messaging going to change?

So yeah, and it's been changing almost like month by month this year. So like staying on your toes and really factoring things in is really key. The other thing too that I would say that is so important now more than ever before with your copy and with your marketing is really leading with value, leading with providing free educational information that will help your ideal clients up front and then always guiding them back to your offers. Just because people are a little more skeptical now and they need a little more tender loving care up front. But you want to make sure that that value is very strategic and it's still always guiding back to your offers.

Right?

Yeah.

Don't forget the offer. You know, there was statistic that I read recently was that 90% of the sales will not go through if you don't ask for the sale. You know, oftentimes we feel like, well, we just tell all about the product and they're interested. If it's a fit, they're going to go, yeah, I want this. But you actually have to ask for it, which is the call to action. And that's you have that in copy, you have that in a conversation and you also have that in copy. And I think that's another big mistake too because I see that a lot of on sales pages and websites, there's no call to action. You notice that?

Yeah, yeah. And if there is a call to action, it's like a maze or like some sort of game where I feel like they're trying to like trick people into or not trick them into it. But like it's like what do you actually want me to do here? Like what am I clicking? And in call to actions, you want to make them super clear, make it impossible to misunderstand and guide them to what their next step is and make sure that every single piece of your marketing, whether it's asking for the sale or not, has a call to action.

Yeah, yeah, no, that's a big one. That's a big one. That's like doing your whole offer and then forgetting to like, you know, take the step. Now you know that, that last step. And speaking of steps, you have a five step process and I'm really excited for you to share this. I want to learn it to communicate your message through content and copy to get people to take action. Can you share that? Do you mind sharing that today?

Yes, I would love to. This has been a total game changer for me because in all of the years of writing copy, studying copy, being in the trenches of some of the biggest campaigns. I really saw that there's five. I call them copy tools. So similar to if you are building a home, you need five tools in your toolbox. There's five key tools like the hammer, you know, you need the saw, the screwdriver, etc. To build whatever it is you want to build. And when it comes to your marketing, there's five Cs, and in this specific order. And anytime you write, if you could just think about these. Okay, do I have each one of these? You're making sure to, you know, set up your message to convert from the start. So the very first one, the first C, is to capture attention. If we don't capture attention, nothing else matters. Robert Collager, which is a famous copywriter, used to say, if I had a dollar to spend on advertising, I would spend the first 80 cents on the headline. And as humans, our attention span, a goldfish attention span is 8.25 seconds. A human's attention span is 9. Excuse me, a goldfish is 8.25 seconds, and a human's is 9 seconds. And if we don't capture attention, nothing else matters. If we don't know how to hook them, they're not going to read anything else. So how can you capture their attention? Through a clear headline that addresses specifically to your ideal client that you can help them or it's something that they're interested in.

Yeah, I think that. And that is you spend so much time on the other part. And if they don't, if this doesn't grab you, that headline, like, I think of it like talking through a megaphone specifically to that ideal customer. That's so important.

Yeah, yeah. So capture attention. Step one. Once you captured attention, the natural next question that your ideal client is going to ask is, should I continue to pay attention here? So number two is that you want to create interest. And notice that I'm not saying, like, now you want to, like, sell your product. It's really setting the container here. So creating interest is hooking them to continue to read on. And so that may look like sharing a story, that may look like sharing an interesting fact, but something related to what it is that you're about to offer that is like a lead in so important. Number three is to clarify benefits. So one of our dear friends, mutual, dear friends, Lisa Sasevich, has a quote that I love, which is sell the destination, not the airplane.

So good. So good.

Yeah. And in the point when you're starting to talk about what it is that you're offering your product or your service, maybe you're guiding them to a sales call. You want to make sure that you're focusing your copy and your language on the destination. So what would the end result for your ideal client look like? Instead of saying, you know, you're going to get a year program and in that year program you're going to get 85 videos and 75 PDFs and three retreats, it's like, no. What is the result that they want? You know, over the course of the next year, we're going to build out a plan to help you sustainably and predictably grow your business 10x so that you can, you know, as a business owner, be working 80% of your time on your business instead of in your business so that you can spend more time with your family and do the things that you've been putting off year after year because you've been so engulfed in your business.

I mean, night and day, night and day.

Totally different.

Yeah, the second one that you just said, I mean that, that was drawing me in, like, she gets me.

Yes, yes. Yeah. And that quite that answering that question like that person should be like, do they understand me? Do they really understand my world? That's what they're subconsciously asking. So number three, clarify benefits. Number four is credibility and trust. So it's so important in our marketing to make sure that we're infusing credibility and trust. And some ways that we do that is making sure we're either including social proof, which may look like, you know, for you, Alison, I know that, you know, you have hundreds of success stories from your clients that have gone through your programs and have seen amazing results. You know, you're also a best selling author. You have had, you know, some of the best, biggest business minds in the world at your events and on your shows, testimonials and case studies from your clients. Like all of these are really, really key because people will naturally ask like, can I trust this person and will it work for me?

Yeah, it's so big.

Mm.

So big. Because you don't know the, you know, where people are coming from or what their experience has been in the past. Those are all the things coming up for them. Well, I tried this before and it didn't work or Right. And so yeah, I think that the credit and I think sometimes people are, they feel, oh, that's bragging. And I've even said to clients, hey, you worked with these major corporations. Yeah, but it was five years ago. But you worked with these major, like own that like, that was hard work and you gained so much wisdom for it. So I think this is really a big one. It doesn't mean you are bragging, you are just saying, hey, you know, I worked hard for this and I have this experience and I am bringing it to the table.

Absolutely. Yeah. And one of the things I'll often share with our clients on this too is I'm like, in this process, we want to provide your ideal client, like the person that, you know you can help. We want to provide them with every single piece of information they need to make an empowered decision. And as humans, like although 95% of our decisions are emotional, we that 5%, that's logical. That's where we go back and tell our friends and our family why we bought. And oftentimes it's rooted in this credibility and trust section where they're going to say, you know, they just got a feeling, yeah, I want to work with them. And then their husband or their wife says, well, what made you invest in that? Well, you know, she's an expert in this. She's had this person, this person, this person on her show, she has a best selling book. It's like this is giving them what they need to feel solid in their decision. And so you're just kind of getting out of your own way by providing them what they need to make the decision.

Yeah, love that.

Yeah. And then number five you touched on which is the call to action. So they're going to ask if you know, what do I do now and why now? So making it so clear of the next action that you want them to take, do you want them to book a sales call with you? Do you want them to purchase directly on the site? Do you want them to make an appointment? This isn't the time to be really clear or this isn't the time to be very clever. It's the time to be really clear. Buy now, schedule a strategy call. Sometimes I'll see people's call to actions and it's like click here to live your best life. And I'm like, okay, well am I clicking here to live my best life or do you just is this where I can go to buy Making it really clear. And then also the why now? So I think it's really important in copy to make sure that you create authentic, authentic urgency anywhere that you can, which is helping them to make the decision as soon as possible versus putting it off, which many people will tend to do. And that doesn't help anybody.

Right. You're helping them to make a decision. Because if they don't make a decision, in most cases, it's just not going to happen. And then a year goes by or longer, and you're in the same place. So having that urgency with authenticity, I like that I think is important. Just be to the point. I know if I'm talking on the phone with someone and I know that they are a right fit for Pinnacle, our business mentoring and mastermind. I'll just say, hey, let's get started. Let's get started now. You know, like, let's do this. And I. I think there's this sense and they know that I care, and they know that, you know, we're in there for them 100%. And if you don't have a strong call to action, to me, it's. It's saying, I don't have confidence in what I'm doing.

Yeah, it's like doing all of the hard work and then not reaping the results.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. So.

And people sometimes need that nudge. Like, if they're experiencing tension, that's actually great because it's them breaking out into a new way of being and them stepping into a decision regardless of what you sell. So being, like, being a stand for them in that is really key.

So all this is so, so helpful. I'm sure those of you are listening that you're going, oh, my God, this is. I'm not doing this right. I wasn't. You know, I had step one, but I'm not doing step two or three. Oh, and also on step one, on the. What was what?

How did you capture attention?

Capture attention? Yeah. If that's headlines, it could also be subject lines, right?

Yeah, headlines, subject lines, even like sub headlines throughout.

Yeah, yeah, that's a big one. Especially with email getting a little bit more crowded every day. So what do you think out of. What's the most important thing? You know, people are listening right now going, oh, my gosh, I need to redo all my coffee. So if they do nothing else, what do you think is the most important thing for them to get right now?

Definitely painting the picture in your ideal client's language. Moving forward anytime you're writing copy, really asking, okay, how can I paint the vivid picture of what their actual pain looks like in this area that I can help them with, or what the destination really looks like? What does it look like, feel like, sound like, taste like, touch like. Because again, when people feel understood, you become so magnetic to them and they'll keep listening. So, yeah, the next time you're writing copy. How would they say this? How would they describe this?

Yeah, I love that. I love that. Well, this has been so eye opening and so helpful for those of you, I mean, listening, you're probably going, oh, my God, I got to rewrite all my copy. But hey, look, it is worth it if it is going to increase your conversion and you are going to be helping a lot more people. Now you have a gift for us, Jennifer. What is that?

Yeah, if you're asking the question or you're like, oh my gosh, okay, I gotta rewrite it all or I'm not sure where I'm doing things right or where I maybe have things off track. We created a Conscious Copy scorecard so you can pull it up and basically go through if you have a sales page, an email, your website, and just give yourself ratings on this specific scale of eight different key areas, writing your copy. And then it'll also give you ideas of what to do instead. So if it says, you know, you Rated yourself a 0 out of 12 on how to communicate in your ideal client's voice, you know, you can look at, okay, what would a 12 look like? What are some key simple things that you can do to increase it so that you start, your copy starts to convert a whole lot more. And you can grab it at Conscious Copy Cat if you want to grab that totally free gift on us.

All right, say that one more time and we'll put that at the bottom too for those of you that are watching on the video version here.

Yeah, so if you want to snag your copy of the Conscious Copy scorecard, you can go to consciouscopy co scaleorfail and that's Conscious Copy Co, not dot com, forward, slash, scale or fail.

Yeah, awesome. And we'll put that down there on the lower thirds. And if people just want to reach you directly, Jennifer, or reach you and get information about working with you or your company for copywriting, how do they find you?

Yeah, you can just head over to Conscious Copy Co, take a look around our website there. We have tons of free templates, examples, as well as the different ways that we work with our clients.

Yeah, well, wonderful. Well, this has been so fantastic, super, super enlightening. Thank you for taking the time to be with us today.

Thank you so much for having me.

Yeah, this was awesome. And I just can't say enough. I think I love what Jennifer has shared with you all today because I think sometimes we feel like writing just means you've got to be this great literary writer and you're waiting for the inspiration to come down from the heavens and it really is about direct marketing. You are finding a way to take that conversation and speak in the language that your customer will hear you and take action. So fantastic. Thank you Jennifer. And if you have not subscribed to the scale or fail show, well what the heck are you doing? It is time to subscribe so that you get the shows directly into your inbox and if you like this episode please give us a review and we have the video podcast, we have the audio podcast or whatever works for we are on all of the platforms out there. Spotify, iTunes, iHeartRadio, all that good jazz. All right so thank you for spending time with us. If you want some information about Pinnacle Global Network and to learn how we can help you to grow and scale your company, definitely reach out to us at supportinnacleg. N Com. Until next time get out there. Elevate yourself because you are worth it. Bye everybody.