Are Dance Comps Getting Out of Control? Here's What Needs to Change

Hello friends, I'm Amanda Barr and I'm Rebecca Lou Brennan, and welcome to Dance Principles United, the podcast.

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This is the Dance Principles United podcast.

Well, hello friends, it's Beck here from the Dance Principles United podcast. I am so excited to be joined by an incredible, incredible business owner. This is Ellie from Carnival Dance. How are you, Ellie?

I'm good, thank you for having me.

I was so excited to have you. Now, I first got introduced to Carnival, I think only last year.

Yes.

And it is one of the best competitions I've ever, ever done. Um, and I was really shocked to hear that you've only had this competition for a few years. Is that correct?

That's right. Yeah, it's, uh, uh, we've had seasons now. So we're going into our third season, started in 2024.

That is insane because it is so well run. It is so professional. I'm blown away by it. We're doing it again this year for troupe. We're so excited. My soloists love it. Um, so yeah, I thought we would chat to you today because I want to talk all things comp and all things you. So why don't we start with your dance journey? You grew up dancing.

Yes, that's right.

Yeah.

Well, thank you for the wrap there. Obviously. Yeah, we're trying to do things a little bit differently with Carnival and really elevate the comp scene. My, my background in dance, I started when I was 4, like most of us do, fell in love with it. Yeah, I had a, you know, I grew up in the Southern Highlands, I should say that. So it was a very, very small dance school. Yeah, I had a teacher there that made me fall in love with dance.

Yeah.

And yeah, so I moved on at that point. The only goal I saw in mind was going to Burnt Street Studios. That was the one and only goal. I couldn't see beyond that point.

Sure.

Um, and that happened. I went, I ended up going to Burnt Street Studios, did the 12-month full-time course. And yeah, so that's kind of where my love of dance got started. And after that I went on to, to do a bunch of dance contracts and things like that. So yeah, yeah, that was it.

Who was your teachers at Brent Street, like what? Oh yeah.

Um, so the most influential, I'd say we had Brenae Ritchie.

Oh yeah, at the time. I love her.

She was amazing. Jason Winters was still doing his J-WOWW Winters course.

I love Jason. He's incredible.

Yes. Um, Cameron Mitchell was super involved.

Yeah.

Lucas is now the owner and director.

Yeah.

He was a teacher at the time when I was there.

Yeah.

So I, yeah, there was a, a bunch of icons. I was actually, and I know now Cassie is probably one of the most influential in the studio she was in my full-time year, right? Hey, yeah, that's crazy.

It's crazy how that all turns around. You see, you went and did some dance contracts. Yeah, loved it. Came back to Australia, COVID issue.

Yes. Yeah, so during COVID yeah, um, goal at the time I was doing my visa to go over to the States, right? Yeah, so I'd spent— two of my dance contracts were in the US, so I traveled the US for 2 years on a show and then, um, fell in love with the country. I did a few other contracts and I was like, not— US is where it's at, that's where I want to go. Absolutely. Um, working on my visa, COVID happened, that all just got, you know, stopped. So that didn't end up happening. Um, and then obviously we were kind of here in limbo not knowing whether we could travel or not for a few years. Um, I ended up having a baby.

Oh, did you?

Yes, yes, I had a baby during that period.

Yeah.

And, um, I guess that was my main pivot moment in my career of like, okay, so what does this look like in the dance world?

Yep.

After having a family, you're limited with how you can travel and things like that. So it was a huge pivot period for me, and that's when Carnival was born.

Yeah, right. Yeah. And so you did a lot of comps growing up? Yes. I did a lot of comps growing up.

Yes.

So the difference in comps from then to now is so crazy.

So, so different.

Yeah. Did you do solos?

I did.

Yeah.

I wasn't like an every weekend solo kid. I'd probably do like 5 or 6 a year.

Yeah.

But that was just like, it was a school hall and literally, yeah, you'd bring in your CD and no one was allowed to touch the CD before you came in because if there was a scratch on it and it jumped when you're on stage, like it was the worst thing.

Yeah.

Obviously things have changed since then. Yeah, that was—

yeah, it was a long time ago. This is how old I am. Back in my day it was a cassette tape and I remember we used to cut the music by pausing and then unpausing the cassette tape. Not in uni. Yeah, that's how you cut it. You had like a double cassette. This is how old I am, guys. Showing my age. You had a double cassette. Yeah. And this one would be recording. Yeah, play this one, and then you'd have to pause where the cut was, and then you unpause it.

You're kidding. Oh my, but how long did that take to edit a track?

I, I got pretty good at it. I used to do all the editing for my teacher. I started teaching when I was 13. Yeah. Um, and I was teaching classes on my own when I was 14. I just think I was a born teacher. Yeah. Um, and we had the paper entries that you had to post.

Wait, what? What does that look like?

There was no computers, there was no email. Yeah, yeah. So we had the paper entry, so you had to all fill out the paper entry and you had to post it to those companies forever. Yeah. And then they would post you back the program. Wow. That's how it worked.

And there were no late changes, I'd imagine, back in the day. No, like, they just wouldn't change it.

No, absolutely not. And there was no mobile phones. Yes. None of that when I was growing up. Yeah, it's crazy, right?

Ours was definitely a printout paper. We were definitely not following along on a live schedule back then. My mom would do all of that. I don't really know what effort she went to to do that. Probably the dance teachers did it back then too. Yeah, just probably enter all the kids.

Yep. Yeah.

Um, now the parents are a lot more involved in their kids' entries. Oh yeah.

Yeah. So crazy. So crazy. And then just how much the standard has changed. Mm-hmm.

Insane.

Insane. Yeah, I feel like that is getting crazier and crazier, how high level these kids are. I mean, back in my day, if someone did a cartwheel, it was like, whoa. Yeah, same.

You know, if you were getting a barani, like, people would bow down to you.

That was, yeah, in my day, unheard of. So I grew up with— actually, Lucas and Josh Horner are the same, were the same age as me. We would go to the same comps because we all were on the Central Coast together.

So you—

so we would be in the same comps. Yeah, on the Central Coast. And Josh and Lucas, I remember because they were boys, had some acro tricks. Yeah, maybe, maybe a side aerial, maybe. Yeah, but you know, that was impressive. That was, that was so impressive. Yeah, that was it though. Yeah, that was it. Yeah, but now it's like a C0E is doing a backhand split.

I say this all the time, I'm like, where do we go from here? I'm like, we're at this incredible standard and level. And I, I don't, I don't know where we go from here. There's obviously a lot of studios doing amazing jobs with their studio.

Insane.

Um, kids are committed way more, I think, than they used to be. Like, kids will now be in the studio 20+ hours a week because they want it so bad.

Yeah.

Um, which is obviously incredible. They've clearly been inspired from generations before, but, um, I don't know where we go from here. Yeah, I think If anything, and this is just my opinion, but I think maybe we scale back some of the tricks and we bring dance back onto the table. Not that, you know, the tricks are a part of the routine. Yeah, but they can't be the routine.

I totally agree. But yeah, I think if you look to America right now, that is what's kind of starting to trend over there is there's a lot less tricks and a lot more of the actual dancing and choreography. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, and I, I do hope we get to that as well because it is a lot on these little bodies.

Yeah.

You know, when they're having to do some pretty insane tricks, and I know that they're malleable and, you know, they can do that stuff at that age, but yeah, it's a lot. It's a lot on them. Yeah.

Yeah. I think like obviously there's, um, place and there is categories that like that let that shine, of course, but I think with time to come. And this conversation I have with a lot of people at the HOMCs, obviously we're there for a long time. We speak to a lot of people, speak to a lot of our judges too. This is a lot of the feedback from the judges is that they would really like to see more scaling back on the tricks. They still want to see them. They still think they're impressive, but it needs to be a continuum in the routine, not like, let's stop and do this trick.

Absolutely. And we also know that the majority of contracts, you're never going to use those tricks. I guarantee you didn't— weren't asked to do fouettés in one of your contracts. Yeah. And like 90% of, you know, contracts don't need to do that. Although I have to say, I was on a cruise ship in Europe and they did Cats and there was fouettés in Cats and there was some bigger tricks in there because I guess the dancers coming through now can do the bigger tricks. So yes, you are seeing more shows utilize bits and pieces of skills. Yeah, but still 90%. I mean, you're probably never going to have to do a kick turn in, you know, like, yeah, maybe, but yeah, I doubt it. So yeah, it is kind of— I like that judges are looking at it more that way. Tell me some judges that have done some really great things in your comps. Oh my gosh, I saw your lineup because you just got this photo out.

Yes.

Oh, you get the most insane judges. Yeah, it's crazy.

I know. Yeah, we are so lucky. So, so privileged. And it is obviously important to me, the caliber of judges that we have at our comps, um, when creating Carnival. Like, we're not the first comp to ever exist, we all know that. Yeah, we— but I do have to have some guidelines to what makes us different, and one of those things is our caliber of judges. I think that's really important. I think these kids being on the stage are being seen by a judge. They're given 3 minutes for their routine. If they're doing multiple routines, it's more than 3 minutes. But they have that time with a judge. And these judges that we get are booking, these judges are working, they remember those kids. I have— I have had a judge that worked with us and he adjudicated a dancer. This is in Melbourne, and he was on the panel and a, um, the touring choreographer for Annie the Musical, right? And his kids were the same age for the kids that were auditioning for Annie the Musical. 2 of these dancers got booked on Annie the Musical.

Wow.

And, you know, whether the comp had anything to do with it, but it's gone from comp scene to now we're working professionally together.

That's incredible.

In a production. And that's important to me. Like, I'm on— the talent is incredible. And what I'd love for the comp to do is to bridge that gap for being seen in this space.

I love that. Yeah, I love that. That's amazing. And one of the things I love that you're doing in the comp and I We chatted about this before. So Bibi, for those of you who may or may not know, Bibi is obsessed with singing. That's always been her thing. Dance has actually not been Bibi's thing, which I know sounds crazy.

She happens to be really good at it.

Well, she wasn't when she was little. So believe it or not, when Bibi was little, about 6 to 8 years, I— well, one, she didn't start solos till she was 12 because she was too lazy. And two, I used to say to my staff, I can't believe I have a child who can't dance. So yeah, she was backline about troops, um, and very not into it, just there for the socials. You know, she really only started to work hard at age 12 and then really accelerated to get— but she's saying the whole time she was singing since she was 4. She's had an incredible singing teacher her whole life. And you're now doing this Broadway thing, which is so good. I'm so excited. So do you want to tell everyone about that?

Yes. So, um, throughout the last 2 years, they've obviously seen a certain style of dancer get highlighted at our events. Often we'll see in a championship section, it's, you know, it's very often a contemporary or a lyrical routine, a very technical dancer that is highlighted with the highest point score or maybe the winner of that section. And it just got me thinking that it's the same kind of kids, although there's equally talented kids in a different area.

Absolutely.

Arts, right? That just aren't getting that stage, um, that being for me Broadway, which is what we've now called Broadway Bound, um, which really highlights the kids that are performing, performing artists, yeah, that are singers, actors, dancers, have the triple threat, um, and so kids that's goals are to go into musical theater and things like that, which is a different goal set to a lot of you that's going into the technical contemporary world.

Yeah.

Um, so we've created Broadway Bounce, which basically is a section. It has 3 parts. The performer has to perform a musical theater improv section, a song and dance routine, uh, and a vocal section and a vocal routine as well. So they're going to be scored on all 3 parts. Um, and yeah, it's just gonna be, uh, an award that's given and highlights those performers that have all 3, the triple threat.

So And also, I hope it encourages more of these kids to sing because we know that when kids have singing behind them— and it's interesting, I, um, interviewed last year one of the people who are on the panel for all of the musicals, like one of the audition people, and she said, we're never looking for 20 stars in a musical. We're looking for 2 or 3 stars.

Yeah.

And everyone else needs to be able to sing and back up. Yep. They don't want backup singers to be these incredible, incredible singers. And I found that really interesting. I've never thought of it that way, you know. So in other words, they don't all have to be this insane Casey Donovan. Yeah, they just need to be able to hold a tune. But not enough of them sing.

Yeah.

And so many of them, they'll say, oh, my child can't sing, but they don't realize that you have to learn to sing the same way you have to learn to dictate that same time. But unless you're tone deaf, which is very, very, very rare. Yeah, you can hold a tune and you can learn to sing. You may not be natural at it. Yeah, but you probably weren't natural at dance to start with either. Yeah, you know, it's such an important part. So yeah, I'm really, really excited that you're doing that. Yeah, um, I think that's huge.

Yeah, and look, it's a new section for us. It'll take some time for people to grab on to what the idea of it is. Yeah, um, I think also, you know, when we go to comps and we see certain types of kids highlighted, it inspires the other kids to want to move in that direction.

Sure, I love that.

Which at the moment, you know, we're obviously seeing a lot of technique and tricks and stuff develop, but, you know, highlighting these dancers, kids are going to go, I want to sing, I want that moment, I want, you know, and it's going to push. And as we know, if these kids do want to move into professional careers, the ones that can sing, dance, and act are the most hireable. Absolutely. Will be booked consistently, 100%.

And yeah, So that, that's, I think, sorry, but I think you're going to be a leader in that. I really do. I think that is so, so huge and so different. Yeah. What other things are different about Carnival? Tell me like what your, because what I loved most, and I don't think a lot of, um, people do this, is the live program. Because at other comps you're like, run up and see what it's up to, run back and see what it, it's up to these.

So then run up, or the comp needs to have a runner or multiple runners if dressing rooms are in different areas.

Whereas like, I love that there's that live everything. We know where it's up to. We know when to line up. Yeah, just made everything so much easier. Yeah.

So organization is a big one for you, like just having it really organized. Um, my partner actually developed that app, so I had all these things. I was going, this is hard, this is hard, this is hard. Or it's never been like, it's hard to— like, too hard basket. It's been, how can we make this better? How can we improve this?

Yep.

So he developed the app and it does all my scheduling. It does the timing. It does music. And all of this just means that we can have a much nicer experience with our customers. If our customers need to change their music the day before, I'm not stressing too, because I've got 12 things, 12 steps I have to do to change that music. I go, great, just upload your music. It will be on the portal tomorrow morning when we turn on our app. It's, yeah, and it's not an issue.

Yeah.

And obviously a lot of, you know, there's a lot of angst and, you know, for parents that are first-time parents, you know, at the comp world, or how does this work, or how does that work? And I just really think this more simple we can make it and the more friendly we can be in their experience, it just makes a world of difference. And we get that feedback a lot.

Yeah, it is so— yeah, it is so calm, easy, friendly. I would totally agree with that. That's exactly how it felt for me. Yeah, good.

I mean, that's like, there's obviously different things that we, areas and categories that we want to make a bit different, but that's one of them.

Yeah, absolutely. Um, some great judges that you've worked with, who like, who's some of the really good ones or some of the ones that have really stood out for you? Yeah.

Oh, good question.

Probably so many of them.

Yeah, there is like a different reason. There is. So many. There is so many. Um, yeah, who, who do I have back a lot? I obviously love Ryan Sheppard. We've got him back.

Yeah, tell me about him because, um, we're talking about him because BB's in your comp next weekend, is it?

Uh, in 2 weeks. Oh, it could be next weekend. I'm losing track.

Anyway, soon. End of March. Um, and yeah, I— you said that Ryan Sheppard— yeah, I didn't know a lot about him. Yes, he sounds amazing. Tell me about it.

Yeah, so he's super involved, um, with the creative directing in Rent Street Studios. He has also had like a huge background in musical theater, was on Wicked for— I could be wrong, but about 10 years. He had a really long stint on Wicked.

Wow.

And he just— again, for the Broadway-bound section, it's good to have a judge that has that understanding totally of not just dance but singing and acting as well. So we've had him back a few times. Love him. We have Marco a lot. We love working with Marco.

I love Marco. Yeah, he just gives such positive feedback. Also really great feedback. We had him for Troop when we did it last year. Yeah. And yeah, just really, he's just such an amazing human.

He loves dance.

Yes.

And you can tell.

Yeah.

You know, and his career speaks for itself. Absolutely. But he's so influential in the Australian dance scene. He still loves it. He's such a pleasure to work with. He's not— Yeah, he's not hard. What? Precious?

Not precious. You say, right?

Yeah, he could. And because he's busy, his time is precious.

Absolutely.

But he is just so willing to be there and, um, and to just give each of the kids on the stage the time and the respect to give them their feedback.

Oh my God, you know, one of the things, just thinking, that I love is when you do that dance-off with all the kids. Yeah.

Oh, that reminds me, PJ, he's another one that I love.

Incredible. Yeah, incredible.

Another incredible soul. Um, and he just— when he gets up on the mic, everyone's jaws just drop and you know there's no noise in the audience because he just commands attention and he has something to say. He's not just talking to talk. He's like, I have something, there's a message I want to give you and I want you to leave here taking something from this experience together. Um, and he was actually one of the— I think he's the one that started our dance circle. From memory, he just got up there. I didn't ask him to do anything, and he just got the mic and he goes, can we have some backup music? Yep, awesome. And just got up there and ran the show. And I go, PJ, I love this. We're doing this everywhere.

Yes. And I'm— I— did you do Showcase back in the day? Yeah. And I— that's what I love most about Showcase and about yours is because the kids do that dance That old dance that we all did. Yeah, but it makes it less about the placing and more about the fun of the event.

Community.

Yes. We all know at the end of the day a different judge would place it completely differently. And, you know, it is what it is. As long as I feel when I'm doing it, as long as my kids are up there and competitive, I'm fine. Yeah, I'm happy. Yeah. But when they do that dance, so that's the thing they think about and that's the thing they look back, they remember. Yeah. I don't think anyone really from that troupe comp last year remembers who got first, second, third. Yeah, like they all remember that dance battle and they are all so excited to do the battle again.

Yeah, yeah.

And you share it a lot on your socials.

Yes, well, it's obviously like a key point.

Right, yeah.

Um, and there's different things that we do that just get the kids to like relax and meet kids from other studios and realize that, hey, we all love this one thing together. Yeah, I know we have all got our individual routines and studios that we're cheering for, But you know, what has brought us together is dance, right? And we're going to take 4 minutes out of our day to all just come together and dance.

I love that. And it's like also at the end of the day, and you know this, when they're in auditions, they're not competitive with each other. Yes, they're actually in the audition together. I do feel like that side of things has changed in the last few years. I don't know if you feel that, but I know back 10 years ago, there's no way dance teachers would have spoken to each other. You know, it was so competitive. Yeah.

So you're probably better to speak to that because back then I was just a student, so that kind of, you know, that stuff probably went over my head. I was— I mean, we were just focused on getting our routine on the stage. But as a studio owner, you would know that people aren't interacting with each other.

Yeah, it was taboo. Yeah, it was totally taboo. Whereas now I'll go and chat to Ellie. Yeah, I mean, she's gorgeous and she's so talented. Yeah. Or Tara, or, you know, like, you feel comfortable now to go and talk to those studio owners.

You know, we've got respect for each other's work.

We've got respect for each other's work, and it is what it is on the dance floor. Who wins wins. Yeah. And it's not that whole, like, looking at each other going, I can't talk to you. And then I think the kids are now doing that as well when they're seeing their— and I hope if you guys are listening out there and you're someone who doesn't go and say hi to another studio owner, go and say hi. Yeah. Because it's a much friendlier environment. And it just allows your kids to then feel the same, that they can go and talk to kids from other schools, you know.

And you probably have the most in common with another studio owner than, you know, some random on the street. Like, you are living pretty much the same lives in different parts of the country. So it's like, there's so much you can share with one another.

Exactly. Exactly. Now, I know you're coming to Expo. Yeah, so people can chat to you there about how to get involved with your company. They're not coming to Expo They're crazy. They're not coming to Expo. Yeah. How can they get in touch with you, find out more about Carnival, and come along?

Um, we're pretty, uh, heavy on the socials, so you can find us on carnivaldance_challenge. Um, and then we've got www.carnivaldance.com.au is our website. We have a contact form there if you'd like to reach out to us. Um, you know, we do things like payment plans. We have, um, events up until November this year, so we do understand if you want to reserve your spot but just jump on a payment plan with us, email us, and we'll sort something out. Um, but any questions like we have, we're very happy to answer. We've got 2 full-time staff that work 5 days a week just to answer all of these questions.

Really? Yeah. That's incredible.

And that is because there is a lot of questions, but you know what, like, and I think that's important that we're there to answer them and to hold you through that journey.

Wow.

Yeah.

That's so insane. Hey, lastly, to finish off, what is like the future of your call?

Oh, big question. Um, I have big goals. Look, when I started Carnival, I pulled out my book of like my dreams and, you know, different things I wanted to do in the dance world. And this seems like the right first step when it came to, um, what stepping into the entrepreneurial space and starting something for myself. But like a big goal for me is obviously seeing this incredible level of dancers have more opportunities. Yeah. Um, what that looks like, um, is still to be determined, and there's a few different things that I'm working on in the back end, and I, I will announce some things soon. But we— yeah, like, the step is— the goal here from Carnival is to create more opportunities for those dancers. I'll say that much.

You're incredible. Well, we can't wait to hear all about it, and thank you so much for coming on the podcast today.

It's been so much fun. Thank you.

Thanks, guys. Have a great week.

Bye-bye.

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