The Dance Concert Traditions We Need to Question

Hello friends.

I'm Amanda Barr.

And I'm Rebecca Lou Brennan, and welcome to Dance Principles United, the podcast.

Together, we are passionate about helping studio owners with the business of running their studio.

Join us as we talk everything from marketing systems, studio culture, motherhood, life, and everything in between.

This is the Dance Principles United podcast.

Well, hello friends and welcome to the Dance Principles United podcast. I am here with the incredible Nathan on our very first— that's weird that it's our very first trip away together, just you and I.

I know, I know, right? So we are coming to you live from sunny New Zealand. We are here on a, look, really fun trip. Like if you are, if you do follow us on socials, you might think we're just on a bit of a junket and I could understand why it just looks like that, right? But we're on like a, basically it's a moving mastermind. So we're here with 5 business owners, like including us. So just a really small, tight-knit group of people from different, different businesses, different walks of life, people that are operating at quite a high level.

Yes.

And we're actually, we're being little sponges basically. Like we're being able to get lots of great value and lots of great input on just business in general. Right. And then obviously us workshopping how we can think we can apply it to, To DPU, to Paws, just to give all of our clients better experiences. And look, there's a little bit of bougieness in it, I suppose, Bec. Is that fair to say?

Yeah. Well, look, it's a bit random because we're trying to get our Qantas points up.

Yeah, our status Qantas.

At the same time. So that's a part of this mastermind. And so we're kind of going, well, tomorrow, for example, we fly Auckland to Sydney. Then to Brisbane and then to Sydney.

Yep, yep. So we are getting around. But look, it is, you know, that notion of as well, like we're doing it in business class. We're very lucky. We got to experience the first class lounge at Sydney Airport yesterday.

That was epic.

As well. That was pretty epic. But, you know, we are not just here drinking champagne, even though some of the reels, especially that I'm putting together, might show that. We are doing actual work while we're here too. But we're So we're going around in between the flights, we're sitting in the business class lounges, we're networking, we're working on the business, and we are getting stuff done. And it's just that notion of extracting yourself from the day-to-day for us to be able to, to get out, to put our heads together, and actually do some shit that's moving our business forward, right? Which we know is so important.

It is so, so important. And we had, um, some amazing times with the other business owners yesterday, but it was very funny because within the first You know, couple of hours of meeting them, we realized that one of them has a child in dance, of course.

Everybody does.

Everyone does, yes, of course. And he was just complaining so much about dance in general. And, you know, his child absolutely loved dance and she loves doing it and all of those things, but he was really complaining a lot about some of the things that, you know, we just do for the sake of doing in dance. And it's always good to hear a different perspective on things, right, Nath?

Absolutely. And this is basically what I would— this guy Christian is what I would consider all of our ideal client avatar.

Oh yeah.

Is keen for his daughter to have access to great dance classes where she has fun, but wants good quality as well and is happy to pay for it. Is a high-level business owner himself, high disposable income, and is willing to spend what it takes to to get his daughter good training, but had some great insights on things around especially concerts. And that sort of got us thinking about the podcast episode that we wanted to talk about, is stuff that we are continually seeing dance studio owners do, or dance studios do in general. And sometimes, you know, it's our job when we're working with studios is to sometimes just pause and ask, Oh yeah, okay. So why do you do that? And what's the answer we often get back?

Well, because it's always been done that way, or it's what our studio owner did, so therefore we're going to do that. Or because we think about what our ego wants over what is actually a fan's first experience. I've actually just done this call for Tribe for the last 2 Tribe sessions on concert. And is it a fan's first decision? We actually played a game on Friday, Nath. called the Fans First Game. Not really a game.

Yeah.

But it was just a self-reflection. And then I just popped lots of questions at our members of, is this an ego-first decision or a fans-first decision at the end of the call? Which was quite fun and hilarious. But he was just saying, Christian was saying that the concert goes for so long. And I think he said 2 hours, which we know ourselves is not really a long concert in the whole scheme of things. I don't know if you flagged that as well. A 2-hour concert and he had to watch dance after dance after dance come on. And Lavender, his daughter, was in the second last routine. So he had to stay the whole time and how much torture that was. And we had a little giggle to ourselves because we, we know that now. But, you know, back in the day, I did not know that, Nath.

No, absolutely. And so, like I said, that got us thinking about— we put our heads together and we're like, what are the top 3 things that we constantly hear from dance studio owners that when we ask, you know, why you're doing it, the answer we get back is, well, because that's the way we've always done it. Not because, because it works really well. And it's one of those things. There are some things in our businesses that we do because we've always done it. And then we look at the results, we look at the outcomes, and the outcomes are fantastic. So If something's working and working really well and growing your business and making you money, well, of course we want to keep doing it that way. But too often we're chatting with studio owners and we ask that question and we hear the, well, that's because we've always done it that way. And then when we dig a little bit deeper, we actually find that it's not working out that well for our business.

Yep.

So these are the 3 things that we keep coming across that studio owners do because they've always done it. I'm doing air quotes if you're not watching on the YouTube, that sometimes Sometimes can be hindrances to our business rather than helping them.

Yes. And there's lots of things we do in concert that is that. But I think the length of the concert is something we don't think about. Something I said to our Tribe members and SGC members of late is, have you actually gone and watched a dance concert lately? Because I have, um, in the last few years and it is a big eye-opener when you go and watch a dance concert. You are now watching dance concerts.

I'm a dance dad.

Yeah. And so it's very different experience being in the audience over being backstage where it's crazy and exciting and all the things are happening and you're super busy. But being in that audience and watching a dance concert is absolute fucking torture.

No.

And it is.

And I love dance. I'm obsessed with dance. Nath, as you know, last night we finished our dinner with everyone and I said to you, I'm gonna have a glass of red and watch Dance Moms. So I'm obsessed with dance. If you look at my Instagram, everything is dance related. There's nothing more I love than dance. And there is nothing less I would like than to have to sit down and watch a 2-hour dance concert. Even if it's high level, it is way too long. And I know that now, but back in the day, my concerts, Nath, would go for about 4 hours and everyone was involved in the concert. And I thought it was a wonderful experience and it was not.

No. And that's, yeah, as a dance dad, like I think last year's concert for us was about 3 hours. Now I've got 3 girls, in troupe. So I was— I had something to watch, someone to watch. Gosh, that's a bit rude to the girls. But every, at least every 3rd dance.

Yeah.

I don't think there was a single gap of more than 3 dances in the concert.

Right.

So I was like constantly on. And by the end, even watching my beautiful girls do their thing and have lots of fun on the stage, I was like, oh, it must be nearly time to get like, by interval even, like I was like, You know, the reality is that that's people's attention span too in 2026. 100%.

Yep.

We're all scrollers. We've got, you know, social media companies know that people's attention spans are shorter and shorter. That's why 15-second video clips are a thing. Like, all of these things contribute towards that. So the one thing that we say, and we know that it's controversial, is thinking about the length of your concert and whether That is something that's serving you and your business? And is it driving more or less ticket sales? Because I always try and bring it back to numbers and money. And I honestly think that the longer the concert, the less tickets you will sell.

Absolutely agree.

And that ends up hurting you on the bottom line. You don't make as much revenue, you don't make as much profit because you don't sell all those ancillary tickets. You don't get Grandma and Grandad coming along as much. You don't get the uncles and aunties coming along. Because word gets out that they've got to sit through a 4-hour extravaganza or a 3-hour extravaganza, and it's just a little bit too long and boring to see nephew or niece for their 2 or 3 routines.

Yes, and the last thing I want to say about that is we as studio owners think that if it's not as long a concert, parents don't see that it's then valuable. We think that more time equals more value, but it's the exact opposite. It's actually less time equals more value. And they're going to feel much better and much happier being there for an hour over being there for 3 hours.

I think there is a, probably a little bit of nuance in that in terms of you can just be smarter around how you structure it. So like if you get all the kids into one concert and it goes for 3 hours and You've done— you run your numbers and you've got to charge $57 for that ticket. That's understandable and okay. We need to run the numbers and charge what we need to. But if you break it down into 2 shorter concerts and split it into 2 halves of just an hour and a half on both of them, well, could you charge $40 for each 1.5-hour show now?

Hmm.

Charge a bit less? Absolutely. So essentially you're charging and making $80 revenue from that same length of time in the theater and everybody's happier.

Yeah.

I think that's where it like, yeah, I don't think you could charge the same amount necessarily all the time for a 45-minute show as a 3-hour, but you can be smarter around it.

Yep. All right. So that's the first one. The first one is think about the length of your concert. Um, and that's something that we've always done. We've always done the big extravaganza. I did that when I was little. The second one that we wanted to talk about today—

We were chatting about as we were walking up Mount Eden yesterday.

Yes.

It came to us, was talking about— and this was one you said was super like mind-blowing, slash you could see people's uncomfortableness and twitchiness— but talking around costumes, especially for your preschoolers and rec students at concert time. Do you want to explain to everybody what you've decided for concerts?

Well, first of all, I want to say what I used to do, because that's important for you guys to know. Because I always say to our members that we work with all the time, Nathan, there's no judgment from me. And I want you guys to know that on the podcast as well. Everything that you can do wrong in business, I've done.

Yep.

And so I used to do a separate concert for every preschooler, for every genre they did, a separate costume for every rec kid. Like they all used to get changed. It was crazy. So now for preschool we do, and for our 5 to 7 years Superstars, we do one costume, don't care what genre it is. They change their shoes, the end.

Yep.

Fucking game changer. So much easier for them. Preschoolers hate getting changed anyway. They really do. It's cheaper for parents 'cause we get them to buy their costumes. And so instead of them buying 5 costumes at $125, they buy one costume, which makes them a lot happier. And it's just so much simpler backstage. And then for our rec, our tribe kids, we will have a base. So, you know, I'll do a nice base like a Cozy G Leo or a Studio 7, whatever, a very nice quality Leo. And then we'll just buy, if they do a lyrical, a pretty chiffon skirt to go over it. And then if they do hip-hop, cool, we'll put the cargos and the bandana on and just keep it super simple. Same thing, it's just one price for parents because at the moment we've got a lot of members Nath, who's got people opting out of concert because they don't want to pay $125 to $150 for 6 costumes that they're going to wear once. And I get that.

I empathize with that 100%. Yeah, we're hearing about cost of living, we're hearing about all those things. And so again, it's just one— another one of those notions that, like you said, as we're digging into it with people, like, oh, but we've always done it that way, or it's important to me, and like I get that. So then I sort of try and always bring it down to the numbers, right? You were talking about jazz lyrical hip-hop, for example. So instead of making that parent pay 3 times $150, $450 for that costume that they're going to wear once, right? So now what would that combo costume end up being? Approx? Maybe $200? $200.

I think we'll still charge the $150 because you can get that stuff super cheap. And my idea is they just pay one, everyone just pays the same. It's just easier for my team to deal with.

Perfect. Okay. So we've already saved the parent $300. Big tip. They're super happy. Sometimes we hear people's objections like, yeah, but that means I'm not taking the money in for costumes. Like, okay, cool. Let's pause for a sec. Let's not confuse revenue with profit. Correct. We all know we're hearing from so many of you at the moment about how tough it is. to try and keep our costumes to a sensible level for us and our parents. And we know that our profit margins in our concert costumes especially are shrinking, shrinking, shrinking, shrinking. So especially if we're selling, if we're having to sell our parents 4, 5, 6, maybe we can only put $20 profit on them. That's what we're hearing from studio owners a lot, right?

Yep.

So You've only really given up 2 costumes at $20 profit. You've given up $40, right? That's nothing in the scheme of if you push ahead with making them buy those costumes. Like you said, Bec, we're hearing people dropping out altogether. So you're costing yourself 2 terms of revenue. 3 classes a week at PAWS, I should know this is $60. Hey, look at me go. Look at you. You're losing $600 for term 3, $600 for term 4. You're losing like $1,200 in revenue.

Ticket sales.

Ticket sales, like probably $1,500, $1,600, all for the sake of that $40 profit. That's like I said, I understand, guys, there's more that goes into it. But sometimes when we just sit down and break those numbers down as an extra little reference point for us, it helps put us in perspective a bit, right?

Yeah. And I also get that like parents do you know, you want the bougie costume. And for our preschool and stuff, we'll still get a really beautiful costume that they can get a cute photo in. It's not that, it's just being a little bit more mindful about those kids that are, you know, once a week. And I did have a member the other day, and they say to me, yeah, but we wear the costume again 'cause we do a Christmas performance. I'm like, yes, okay, you're gonna wear one of your costumes again. Are you gonna wear the acro costume? costume again? Oh no, no, they don't wear the acro costume again. Oh cool. Um, are you gonna wear the hip-hop costume? Oh no, no, they only wear the jazz costume again. I'm like, see?

Yeah.

It's just like, it's silly. And we even are now thinking as well, Nath, um, of trying to make at least one element of the costume a uniform they can wear for next year. And I know we do that for midgie, but for example, um, we are using TLC at the moment who do the real glittery stuff, and we're like, okay, if we get a red leo that's within our colors that has tribe and glitter across it, they're still getting glitter They're still getting a leotard, but then they can wear that leotard next year for class. So parents can see the value in that, 'cause our rec members often need to see the value, right?

Yes.

And so then it's like, cool, you're still getting something glittery and pretty that they can wear next year. That's a cool thing for the concert. So that's where we're at with this at the moment, is a cute cap sleeve leo that's red with Tribe across it. And then they'll get their extras with it. I still think I can get that costume For $100, even with that Glitter Leo, if I'm smart and get some of the accessory stuff from Shein, then I reckon we can get it under $100 and still make $50 on each costume.

Yeah, awesome. And can you talk a little bit, Bec, around— I can hear people's and even feel it through the podcast, people's like objections and worry about like, you know, what about like, like they enjoy costuming, they enjoy putting the pretty costumes and the artistic side of it, but you still Have that and work that into your comp show. Is that fair to say?

Um, oh well, our comp— that's a completely separate show.

Yep.

So our comp kids buy their costume at the beginning of the year and they wear it 5 times. So they wear it for 4 comps— well, actually 6 times. They wear it for pep rally, 4 comps, and then concert. So yes, we charge, I think, $150 per costume there, but they get the value out of the costume.

Yes.

So I feel like no one really questions that.

Yes.

Whereas when it's the rec kids, of course there is the questioning in and around that.

Yeah, I think it's the understanding a different market. You know that your comp parents are the ones super invested in dance and they want to see an end-of-year show with the full costuming and all those kinds of things, and that's important to them. So you're providing that for them.

Yes.

But for your preschool and rec kids, who are more around the kids having fun, getting up on stage, building all those incredible confidence things that we know dance gets for them, but they don't necessarily want to have to remortgage their house to get the end-of-year concerts. You provide that for them. So I think sometimes too often we see and we're trying to jam that one-size-fits-all approach onto very different customer bases within our studios.

It's also letting go of your ego because I know those of you out there are thinking, oh no, but for ballet they have to have the beautiful ballet tutu, and then for jazz they have to have the jazz outfit, and how can you do all of that? Well, there's great 3-in-1 costumes you can get now if you're that desperate about it, but honestly, like, we just do a cute puff sleeve little skirt and no one complained. Last, last year they had rock across the front because we did a rock theme. No one complained that that was their ballet outfit. This year we're doing K-pop because that's the in thing, right?

Yeah.

So we're doing K-pop, um, and it's the same thing. It's the puff sleeve. There's a few different K-pop outfits there and that's it. Oh my God, can I tell you one controversial thing I'm doing this year that has blown members' minds? Sorry, this is totally off tangent, guys, but I have to tell you this. So we, this year for preschool and 5 to 7 years, which is our Superstars, We are doing pick your own costume. So there's— I'm not kidding.

So there's— Again, I can feel people, the short intake of breath in the podcast.

So there's— this was like, this blew up in our members. So there's 4 costumes they can choose from because, you know, there's 3 K-pop demon hunters that they love. So there's 3 K-pop demon hunter costumes and then there's a 4th white and gold, you know, when they do the golden thing. Because I'm like, some parents will want just that pretty costume and they can choose whatever they want. So there is potential, Nath, and this was the moment from the members, there is potential that there could be 15 kids on stage in one costume and then one child, God forbid, in a different costume. I mean, I don't think that will happen, but it might. And so that is potential and that is just like devastation. And when even my staff brought that up, it was like, no, Bec, you can't do that. And I said, who cares? Why does it matter? Good on that kid, she's gonna stand out. Why do we care about this stuff? Why is that important?

Yeah.

Is the question. So this could, it could be a disaster or it could be the best thing I've ever done. I'm voting for best thing I've ever done, Nath, because, you know, then parents get to choose. They get the cute photos in the costume they want. 'Cause one thing that we've had every year for the last few years is the same costume but different colors for each day. So Mondays are green. Tuesdays are blue in that costume and Wednesdays are pink in that costume for preschool, right? So then I have the parents complaining they didn't like the green costume and they don't want their child in the green. And then I thought, fair call. I would have hated Bebe in green. I would have, I would have wanted her in pink. Other parents want their kid in green. They don't want the pink. Well, do what you want.

Yep. And I think that that is super important what you're saying, that One of the reasons that PAUSE is so successful is that you are unafraid to test these things.

Yep.

And it doesn't mean that, you know, you could sit here and you will be the first one to eat your hat if after this year's concert it all goes to shit.

Yep.

And say, right, we'll go back to how, like, how it was because obviously that was working. But you're not afraid to test it because you listen to your families, you see what's happening, You don't just get the confirmation bias, because that's what I hear with a lot of our members. Like, oh, everybody says that they love it this way. I'm like, okay, cool. Like, tell me about some people. Oh well, I chatted to this one mum after concert. I'm like, hang on. You just said everybody and you're telling me you've chatted to one person about it.

Yeah.

So I think sometimes we listen to that confirmation bias on all the positives and we don't trust ourselves and our own judgment from what we're hearing. Anecdotally, because at the end of the day too, guys, and this is why we're not really— I'm not really a big believer in customer surveys, because a lot of the time people aren't honest and just want to be nice, especially to your face, and they're not going to give you honest feedback a lot of the time. So, but yeah, you're going to put it out there, you're going to see how it goes, and you're thinking it's going to work, which I think it's going to as well, to be honest. But if it doesn't, you're going to fall on your sword and you're going to go back to what's happened.

Correct. I think it'll work from a parent perspective. I think they're gonna love it.

Yep.

I think where it's— we're gonna have to be super careful is making sure our backstage is very organized because when we had the pink group, obviously if you're in a pink costume, you're in the pink group. That's obvious.

Yes.

Now it's everyone's in everything. And so that is where kids are gonna have to be very You know, we're going to have to be very organized in that sense, whether we have a bow in their hair that tells— there has to be some sort of situation for our backstage to know you're in Monday group, because now Monday group has 5 costumes to choose from.

Yeah, and look, and I think one of the key things that people don't talk about is you are a strong leader within your studio. You obviously take feedback from your staff.

Yep.

Because you value it. But where we see a lot of studio owners struggle with making big changes like you're talking about here is they will say to me, oh, but my teachers are dead against it. How do you deal with that?

Well, my staff are always dead against something and they were against this and they will be against other things. I guess it's just saying to them, giving them the solutions of how we're gonna make it work. And I think that's the big thing. When anyone comes to me with a problem, it's my job as a leader to then create the for them and to talk them through those solutions and to show them how it is going to work. And I'm not joking, just then I had, you know, my head of preschool panicking about this entire situation and asking me, is this outfit for this? And, you know, she's freaking out about it.

Yep.

And it's her job also to create the critical paths for backstage. So I just reassured her then and said, hey, just jumping on a few podcasts, I'll give you a call later this afternoon, I've got solutions for this. And that's literally what it is. You know, they, they need to know that, um, things aren't going to go pear-shaped.

And there's a reason behind it.

Yep. Yep.

Yep.

Yep. And they are freaking out about it.

Yeah. That's all right. That's okay. But that's like, that's what you're there as a leader, like we said, to guide them through and show them that there will be benefits to it.

I think as well, I will take the blame if things do go pear-shaped. I'm not going to say that that's their fault. I'll be like, sorry guys, completely fucked that. That was a bad idea.

Yeah. But at the end of the day, whose business is it?

Exactly. Exactly. And yeah, you've got to kind of do what you think in your business. It's, yeah, I've learned that the hard way many times.

Yep, absolutely. Well, look, we did say we had 3 things at the top of the podcast, but I think we've, as we normally do, Beck, gone off on enough tangents to keep it tight to these 2 because the other one doesn't relate to concert. I think it's a nice little neatly wrapped Okay, sure. With these couple of things?

Yeah. Well, I'd like to finish off saying this. With your concert this year, seeing as we focused on concert, just do what I did with our tribe members the other day and do a little audit and go, is this a fans-first experience? What I mean by fans-first is, are you doing what's best for parents and kids in your concert, or is it an ego-driven decision? Okay? I'm just going to mention a couple of things for you to think about. Is doing rehearsals all day a fans-first experience or an ego-driven? Because that makes the kids bloody exhausted, costs you a lot of money. Is the costuming a fans-first experience or ego-driven? Is ridiculous lighting a fans-first— There's so many things that we do that you need to just think, am I doing what's best for kids and parents here? Or are they going to go, this is the worst experience ever and I don't ever want to do this concert again. Therefore, we're not doing dance next year. Let's do netball. And, you know, the last thing I want to say is concerts should be a retention exercise. It should be, wow, this was the best experience ever of my entire life, and I can't wait to do another concert. And if that's not what's happening, then— and if you're finding that a lot of kids are exiting after the concert, you need to change how you're doing it.

Or in the lead-up to concert.

Oh, 100%, exact same.

Yeah, absolutely. So you did a great— like you said, you deep dived into quite a number of these things on the Tribe call the other week. So if you're a Tribe or an SJC member, jump onto your Tribe portal and you can watch that call back. If you're not a member and you'd like, we do have the 7-day free trial to Tribe, so you could jump on and access that call as well. Just drop us a DM and we can point you in the right direction.

Absolutely. Thanks guys. Great chatting to you today.

Thanks. Bye.

Thanks friends. Bye-bye.

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