Scale Your Dance Studio Part 1: From $0-$250K

Hello, friends, I'm Amanda Barr.

And I'm Rebecca Lou Brennan. And welcome to Dance Principles United, the podcast.

Together, we are passionate about helping studio owners with the business of running their studio.

Join us as we talk everything from marketing systems, studio culture, motherhood, life and everything in between.

This is the Dance Principals United Podcast.

Hello, everyone and welcome to a super special episode of the Dance Principles United Podcast. And it's super special because we're all together in person here at the Sofitel in Darling Harbour, Sydney. How are we going?

Amanda and Bec, super excited to be here. We love the Sofitel doing a bit of a conference together which has been amazing and learning. We always talk to our SGC peeps and tribe members about their learnings and talk to you guys and we're doing the same. We're learning from our business group. So it's been awesome.

Amazing. Yeah, absolutely. We definitely practice what we preach and we're doing this one virtually this conference. So we decided to get together in person because we know that that's how we're going to get the most out of it. And we would have loved to have been in LA where the conference is happening. But this is the second best, right, Manda?

Absolutely. I think that's really important because we know that sometimes when we watch Zooms, you know, your computer pops up and then the kids want something from the kitchen and then you know what it's like, you're just sitting on your desktop and you're kind of scrolling on your phone. So instead we've hired a boardroom space in Sydney. We plugged our zoom screen into the big screen so we could be completely present at this online conference. So I think that's a really. A big thing, right?

Yeah. I think being present is the key. Absolutely. It's so hard to be present in today's world. It's like it is so difficult.

Absolutely.

So if you are listening on, we're not going to be talking about our conference today. What we're talking about is look to toot our own horn a little bit. What we know that makes special working with Dance Principals United is that between the three of us, we've pretty much experienced every single level of dance studio ownership that there is right from starting out with, you know, you know, 0, 30 students, 20 or 30 students, right up to those 700, 800 student plus studios, bringing in well in excess of a million dollars in revenue and everything in between. So we're going to do just a little bit of a mini series, I guess, over the Next few podcasts talking about that, talking about Amanda and Beck's experiences with the different stages of growth and building up of their studios.

Absolutely. I'm excited to get into it.

Yeah.

So we're going to go talking about sort of where, where we work with some studio owners who are just starting out. Right. And their studios are in that phase of, let's just call it. We're going to talk about like revenue levels for, for this podcast. I think that's a really easy way to put it, guys. Revenue is obviously just all the money that we bring in. So all the money that people pay us for fees, costumes, like just money into our business. So the first level we're sort of talking about is 0 to $250,000 revenue in your studio. So for a lot of people, that's sort of, you know, just starting out, getting going the first few years. Or maybe it's like if you're still running your studio as a bit of a side hustle or something like that. Lots of different, different places that people are at. So can you guys sort of talk about that first sort of t of your studio growth will maybe start with you? Manda, if you can remember back to, to the start.

Well, that was a long time ago. It was 20 something years ago and I was super young. So when I opened my studio, I took over someone else's lease. I think I had seven students from them when I took over their lease. But I did a big marketing campaign. I opened in the July school holidays and I think we ended up with about like 40 ish and then finished the year on about 90 ish by the end of the year to do the concert. So, you know, it was a pretty steep growth year in that I was also, just to be completely transparent in high school, which is obviously things that were okay then, which is not probably okay now. Maybe not, but I had the deal from my mom and dad that they would sign this lease for me, help me out with some startup money with the deal that I finished high school and got good grades. So I had that going on as well. But you know, it was interesting. I'm trying to think back to where I kind of hit that $250,000 mark. And I think it was probably about maybe year three or year four, which is when I finished high school and put my all into it. And I think that's the big point, right? Like it's what you put into it because when I was doing it as a part time, I was getting part time results when I started Doing it full time. I got full time results.

That was one of the comments in our coaching groups. Chat part time. Part time input equals part time results.

Yeah, yeah, I think that's so, so valuable. And yeah, when I was doing it as well as high school, I was getting results. When I put my full focus into it, I was getting much better results. So I think I was probably, as I said, hit that around that sort of year four or something like that, but I was putting everything into it. Like, I don't know. What about you, Beck? When you were kind of at that stage, were you putting everything into it?

Well, I bought my studio and I was teaching at it full time. So I was teaching probably, you know, 30 hours a week at least, maybe more. I was taking the majority of the classes at it and I think it had seven. Well, I remember exactly. It had 79 students at the time. And you know, that was probably a pretty big thing for me to take over the lease and all of the things because it was a proper premises. So we. It had two studios there. So to take that over and Yeah, I just took it over and started from there essentially. And I think I did work super duper hard in the first couple of years for sure.

Absolutely.

Yeah. I know I was teaching all the classes, doing all the things, but I think the admin side of it was really tricky for me.

It's interesting, right, because we kind of started having this chat off mic before as well about how much that's changed.

Yes.

Because we're both talking 20 plus years ago. I think the systems have like. There was no Facebook, there was no Instagram, there's no social media marketing. But there also was barely even. Were you saying about email?

There was no email.

Like, you know, it was still newsletters that were printed.

Correct. And written letters to parents and. Yeah.

Feeds in an envelope and all of that.

Feeds in an envelope. Yeah, it was a. It was a lot easier in a lot of senses as well because I think it really did come down to when I was running it, how good of a teacher I was. And that was really.

That. Yeah.

And I was a really good teacher. And that's what kept all. I didn't. One single kid. I do love teaching. I didn't lose one single kid at the time of the takeover because I was teaching the majority of the classes. So I think it was quite simple in that sense.

Absolutely. And I think the like, I guess that's kind of bringing into another conversation. Right? Like love it or hate it, this is the world we live in, you know, we could all talk about how could the good old day, whatever. But that's not the case. So there's no point talking about that. I'm very much a let's not dwell in the past kind of person. The current landscape is that parents have high expectations and there's a lot that goes into the admin side of a business and you don't have a choice. You've got to do it now to thrive. You've got to do it. There's absolutely no choice about it. And to start with, you know, what you might have got away with 25 years ago is not what you're getting away with now. You know, there's no cash in an envelope. That was actually just off. Can I just talk off topic?

As if I could ever stop you.

Talking like you say that. But my dad built a software system for me. I just, just, I'm just telling Beck this more, more than anything to when we started and that was like revolutionary.

He would have been.

He built me a whole file make a pro. It was called filemaker Pro and he called it Dan Sensations like and built me a software system that allowed me to do their fees terminally and to automatically bill them to take do class roles. And he kept building it as he was going. And it was like when I would tell people that we had like a software system that my dad had designed.

For me on a computer.

Like it was absolutely like it was. And we did everything and like our invoices were. And because I'd, you know, I'd taken over the lease of the studio and there was you know, only seven people but then we actually had a whole heap of kids join us from another studio as well. And the fact that we like had proper printed invoices that were written up properly like it was mind blowing. Right.

We would not have had any of that. I think we had the invoice book.

Yeah.

The handwritten app, everything out and I don't, I don't even think we had a computer at the studio.

Yeah. It's crazy how much things have changed. Right.

It's insane now that you're thinking about it and saying it like that. It's like. That's right. I forgot.

So trying to try to bring our listeners back into, back into 2024 and if they're sort of at this phase of their studio growth journey now, you both sort of touched on it. The fact that especially at the start a dance studio is always going to be an owner operated business.

Absolutely.

It's something that I obviously work with studio owners a lot on their numbers, and the biggest thing that drags down their profits is hiring too many staff and wage bloating, I call it. You guys both talked about the fact that you basically got in and did an overwhelming majority of it yourself, both from the teaching and. Or the admin side. Could you maybe just both expand on that a little bit?

Absolutely. So I think I probably taught those first two years, as I said, I was kind of part time in the studio. I probably taught about maybe 60 to 70% of the classes myself. And I did 100% of the admin. And I did 100 of the admin. Just to be super clear. I know this is kind of like going into the next one. I did 100% of the admin until we were at like 750,000 sort of thing. Like, for a very long time, I did that. Yeah. So I guess that's kind of. And I did most of it myself. I got in there and I did the hard work. I don't know about you. You probably taught every class, right?

I think. Well, apart from things I can't teach, like tap, I absolutely did teach every class. Every private. Every preschool class.

Yes.

You know, that's what I'm saying.

Oh, that's a big one. Every preschool I did.

Because that's why I. I do say this to our clients a lot, because I know I talk about, you know, all the time, preschools on at my school every single morning, and I'm not there. But it definitely was not like that. For the first, probably 15 years of me owning my studio, I literally taught every single preschool class and every class in general. And absolutely, like, I was doing the costume invoicing, I was doing the normal invoicing. I was doing all the things. I'm not saying I was doing it well, but I definitely was doing absolutely everything.

Absolutely. It's that hard thing, right? Like, if we're talking under $250,000, you.

Know, 10% straight away for GST. So you're down to $220,000.

That's it. Right. If you've got a lease, that's a good chunk of that change gone on that. That's before, you know, we're talking revenue, don't forget. So that's before we've talked about, obviously, if you need to get in. You know, for me, I always had to have ballet teachers in the fact.

That if your studio does run two or three rooms, obviously, you guys. When you guys were saying that you guys are teaching in studio One, for example.

Absolutely.

You need to get somebody in for Studio 2 and 3, because you couldn't hologram yourself just yet.

Well, yes, but under 250,000, we didn't have Studio 3, for example. It might have been too just sort of thing. But yes, absolutely. I didn't have hologram. My dad was good, but he did not make holograms. But, you know, like, I think doing it all, but yet really thinking about the fact that under 250, as I said, you've obviously got the GST, you've got other staff, you know, teachers to pay, you've got your rent. Like, by the time you've bought some costumes out of that, you've paid your theater venue and stuff, like, you know, you need to be making 50,000 as a kind of minimum to live in the world these days. Right. Like, absolute. That's still like penny pinching. So there shouldn't be a lot of room. And I think that's one of the biggest mistakes I see studio owners make is giving other people their wage. I find that that's such a big thing. Right. Like, if you've only got X amount left, like, don't forget, every cent you give to another staff member is money that's coming away from you and not in your pocket, not in your family's pocket, or even if you're, you know, don't have a family, not in your pocket.

Yeah, I still think about that today.

Yeah.

You know, when I'm doing wages today, I'm like, it's. It's insane sometimes how much money you are giving out in wages.

It could be straight into you if you did that little bit more work, if you worked. I always think about that, right, like, you know, we see a lot of the times, do you own this bring in admin too early? And I think if you're underdoing, if you're doing under 250,000, you shouldn't. You should be doing all your admin yourself. Just to be super clear, you should not be having admin help. And I always just think, okay, so if you brought in someone, but could you do that work in five hours a week maybe? Does. Is that mean get up earlier? One hour a week, you know, one hour a day, Sorry. And doing an extra one hour a day, like, and then being able to take that extra money, like, that is such a big difference. I don't know. Does that make, like.

No, Absolutely. And I think that sort of leads into my next question. I think a lot of studio owners, especially that we work with Very closely. I've seen both of you guys and talk a lot about the end of your studio owner journey because that's lots of what we share now and especially both of you within your studios. Amanda, towards the end, because we've sold. We sold our studio, obviously. And Beck, you're still currently in your studio at the moment. And a lot of what you talk about is the leadership of your team and the fact that you have brought on team members to handle more of the admin, more of the advertising, more of the different things that go into running our studios. But, but once upon a time, especially when you were back in those early phases, like you even talk about, Beck, you were the one sitting there learning how to run Facebook ads. Amanda, you were the one that made sure you understood your dance studio owner software. When you switched over to Jackrabbit, you didn't outsource that to a staff member.

No, absolutely not.

You made sure that any new system that you bought on place, you were the one that understood it best. Then you would outsource it to somebody else. Could you maybe both? Yeah. Talk about that, sort of how you started out doing all the things well, before you started outsourcing.

Yeah, well, I think, you know, keeping in the theme of this podcast, I guess, is, you know, very much so. I did every single thing and I knew how to do every single thing. I would never outsource anything until I had a complete understanding of that. Nathan brought up, like Facebook ads, for example. Such a good example. Or software, but also in terms of, for me, you know, I don't have a strong ballet background, but you know what? I made sure I understood. I made sure I understood that rad syllabus like nothing else. I understood how exams work. I would never have relied on a teacher or an employee. And I've seen other studios. It's interesting because I've seen someone recently burnt by this going, oh, I didn't know that they needed to be taught exercise, whatever for their exams because I didn't read the syllabus. I don't understand. So for me, it was very important that I understood. Yes, I wasn't teaching the ballet syllabus, but I understood exactly what the requirements were. Same with cheer. I didn't teach cheer, but I. I made sure I had the best understanding I possibly could so I could always be checking in on my team members and not just relying on someone else.

You wouldn't get your qualifications as well?

Oh, yeah, I went and got my qualifications even though I had no intentions of ever for this is for cheer, for example. I'm a CHEER certified coach because I want to make sure I understand what I'm giving away before I give it away.

Right, absolutely. Well, I know, like, yeah, Facebook ads is a big one because I had to learn a lot and, you know, I find it really difficult to get my head around any of that stuff that took me a long time and consistent going over and over and over it, which I know people still have to do now. I just.

Yes.

Yeah.

It's just like you do. And I know that when we bought the software system in, we didn't have Jackrabbit, but we had dance Biz, same thing. I knew that inside out. I was the one using it. No one else was using it. So, yeah, definitely, I can. Yeah, I forget about this stuff.

Here.

I, like, forget about that. But yes, that was absolutely the first, probably, yeah, 12 years I was the person doing all of that stuff.

Absolutely, absolutely. Because that's the way that you don't get burned. And that's what, that's what I see, unfortunately, too often with dance studio owners is that, um, we end up seeing them having spent and a lot of the times unfortunately, wasted loads of money on getting somebody to do the Facebook ads. They've been taken for a bit of a ride in that. We're just using that because it's an easy example.

Yeah, absolutely.

Because they don't understand how to, when they do bring somebody in, how to ask the right questions. When you first bought somebody in Beck, you were up to date on Facebook ads. You would have been making sure that you could say, well, hang on, I've done this. I know that it should be a little bit like this. Like, why is it not.

Like, how can you level up my general expertise? I think that's the thing, right? Like, you have to have a general understanding of it and then you bring someone in to level it up.

Yeah, absolutely. And that, you know, you guys both talked about knowing those systems inside out and that's what would have. Maybe I'm putting words in your mouth, but maybe I can ask it as a question. How do you think that helped you then? And I know we're going to go into this in like the next episode, but how did putting in the groundwork at this lower level, the 0 to 2,250k revenue, help you get ready to push on into the next sort of level of your studio?

Oh, I think, you know, obviously it was a long time ago for me, but teaching me that hard work pays off and it's One thing that I really teach, you know, I was teaching, talking to my daughter about this the other day. My, my eldest daughter, academically is very intelligent. But I told her that, you know, we were having a conversation about, you know, how I've been successful is through hard work, not through natural ability, which, you know, is the same as academics, is the same with dance. Right. But, you know, hard. What's that quote by the, you know, some famous NBA players? Like, with very few exceptions, the hard, you know, the hardest worker is the most successful or something like that. I can't think of the quote off top of my head, but it is that, right? Like it's hard work pays off. And I think that that really taught me that at that 250, because I wanted to hustle. I wanted to work hard so that I could push past that. I wanted to push hard so I could make the money that I wanted to make and that I deserve to make. Because if you're working full time in your studio, you deserve to make more than $50,000 a year because it is a hard job with a lot of qualifications. I think that's a big thing for me. You deserve all that money. You've done a lot of training, you're an expert in your craft and you deserve to be paid for it.

Oh, I'm so passionate about that now. I definitely wasn't at that time. Yeah, I didn't care about money at all. It's interesting how much it's flipped for me, but I'm thinking about this now, but I really didn't. I. All I cared about was the win. They're getting kids to be that elite level to getting them careers in dance to that whole side of my studio was so much more important to me. But I, I totally agree with you with the hard work stuff. And I talk to my students about this. Every single day is hard work equals success. And anyone, if you're looking at anyone successful in life and I can vouch for you and I and anyone else. I always use the Kardashians as an example because everyone thinks the Kardashians live this beautiful, glamorous life where they're just chilling, you know, in drinking champagne on.

Boats, on their really, really comfy looking couches.

I always say to my students, they are, I think, probably the hardest working family in the whole of the world right now. And the thing is, they are hustling every single day. They are working massive hours. And if you don't think that, you just don't realize that hard work does Equal success. And you, you have to. Have to realize that to get there. I couldn't agree with you more on that.

Yeah.

But, yeah, I was never focused on that money. I did want to grow my studio absolutely at a point, but probably for the first five or six years, I was so much more focused on other things, which was silly because you. You have to have a balance. You've got to realize that then what happens is. And what happened with me was I started to resent it and I started to hate it. And then I was crying and upset all the time because I wasn't making any money off the thing that I was working my guts out for. So it's a silly way. If you're a starting studio owner and you are at that point, make them both equal. That's a big, huge bit of advice.

Yeah, absolutely. And that, like, you basically, basically started answering my next question that I was going to ask Beck. Making sure. How did both of you. We talked about, like, we're talking about revenue, obviously zero to 250,000. But a huge part of making, of having any business run is there's a big difference between revenue and profits.

Yes.

And we wanted every stage of your studio owner journey to make sure that your business is profitable. And when we talk profit, we mean the money going in your pocket. So that can include your wage. So, like, thinking back to it, Amanda, do you sort of remember how profitable the studio was when you were starting out those first few years? You were maybe at a different phase in your life because you would have been reinvesting hard.

I was reinvesting hard. And, you know, I can't sit here and pretend like I could tell you the numbers off the top of my head of what I was paying myself. But I know that I was watching the dollars and cents. I was watching how many people I was employing. I was, you know, doing the cleaning so that I could save money. I was very adamant. I wanted to buy a house by the time I was 20. And I was very, like, set on that. I didn't get it till just after my 21st birthday.

What an underachievement.

But, you know, I was watching every dollar and cent, so I can't talk about the exact figure. And also, you know, money's changed, obviously, but I was watching what I was spending because I wanted to put as much into my pocket at that point as possible whilst reinvesting it and continuing to grow my business. I wanted to, you know what I wanted to do? Could I just be completely honest?

Tell me.

I wanted to prove to all those stupid people that were saying to me, oh, a dance. You're. You're in a dance. And what else? What are you going to do when you grow up?

What's your real job?

Are you going to go, what are you doing at uni?

Right.

And I was at uni as well. Just. But I had all of that. Oh, so is this just to get you through uni? I wanted to prove to those people before I finished my degree that. Which I didn't do. P.S. but that this was a legitimate job, and I wanted to prove that. And I was very headstrong on those. You know, we've all had those people in our life. Right.

Like.

And what are you really gonna do? Yeah, that was my thing. I don't know. What about you?

Yeah, I wasn't like that at all.

Yeah, different. Yeah.

What was the question?

Also, it was like, we're talking about revenue, but, like, at that stage of your studio, how profitable do you think you were? Like I said, you basically touched on it just before.

Like, I wouldn't. I would. I wouldn't have even known what revenue was.

Yep.

Probably didn't even know how much money was coming in.

No idea. I would have just spent money as it was in the account. I would never, ever have even looked at that.

Would you have been paying yourself a regular wage?

I doubt it. I doubt it. I probably just spent the money out of the. Like, I wouldn't have even had my own account.

Yeah.

I would have just spent the money out of the business that was left.

Which we see people doing now, still. Yeah.

For groceries or for rent or whatever it was. I would have just spent that money out of it. I wouldn't have had any idea how many class placements I had. I would have not known none of those things. But I tell you what, I would have known exactly what exam result every single child in that studio got the year before and what. What my expectation was the year after. So it's just a very different focus for me. And, like, if I was trying to prove anything, it was probably that I could be that studio owner that got those results.

Absolutely. So we're both working hard, but on different things. Right? Like, it's that funny thing.

Yeah.

Okay, amazing. So maybe to wrap this up, could you guys maybe give us the top three tips for studio owners who are maybe in this phase of their studio owner journey? So, top three tips for moving out of this 0-250k revenue into the next phase of their studio?

Awesome. I'll give Mine. And then we'll see how yours go with it. Is that what we'll do? All right, we'll see how many. Let's see how many we get to. Okay. Short, sharp tips that you should be doing 90% of the work yourself at that phase, I think, you know, or close to, like, it's hard to, like, quantify, but you should be doing the majority of the teaching and all the administration.

If you're passionate about teaching kids dance, learn the business side now and learn the systems, learn all of those things. Know your numbers, teach yourself that stuff, because that's going to help you to scale. Otherwise, you're just going to keep teaching great dance, which is great, but you're not going to actually ever be able to get past that point.

Absolutely. And I think that comes into investing in yourself, whether that's investing yourself by listening to podcasts, which you're obviously doing, you know, learning things on YouTube, you know, joining a group like Dance Principals United Tribe, whatever that is, coming to events like Dance Teacher Expo. Invest in your growth. I think that is a really big one that I guess kind of goes hand in hand with that.

Yeah. And we're not just saying that because we run those things. We're literally saying it because that was the game. Well, for me, that was definitely the big game changer, was when I did actually start investing in my own learning, then I did start making money, and then I did actually pay myself a wage and do things properly. And that's how I've gotten to where I am now, which is why we do. Well, what I do. This is because I'm so passionate about seeing other studio owners get to that.

Yeah. So was that your second tip, man?

I don't know if that's my second tip. Can I give another tip, though?

Of course.

Let's not count the tips. My other. Sorry, we just really get off topic, so start ranting.

Welcome to my life, podcast listeners. Welcome to my life.

So my next tip is don't give away money that could be in your pocket.

Amazing.

You know, I think you really need to make sure that you aren't just employing people. I think sometimes, like, I've got to be honest, I think sometimes it's an egotistical thing that you're employing people to look like you have staff members and you're a legitimate business or something along those lines. It is much more impressive to hustle and do it yourself and put that money in your pocket so that you can grow to the next phase, because that takes money and you need that in your pocket or in your bank account so that you can grow to the next phase, if that's what you want to do, if you want to get past that 250 and start paying yourself more money.

And can I be a little bit controversial as well? I do think sometimes I see studio owners doing it just to have someone to hang out with.

Yes.

And like.

Or to like to, you know, bounce ideas around or whatever.

Yeah, I get it. But sometimes you can't afford it as well.

Yeah.

So just be mindful.

Hang out with other studio owners online instead of choice.

Exactly.

Another tip, my last one. Controversial as well.

Shocking.

Stop bullshitting yourself that you're working your guts out. Like, I just think sometimes we see people who think that they're working really, really hard, but actually they're just making themselves busy for the sake of making themselves busy.

Yeah.

And I think you have to be really about that. And there were times definitely in my studio and a journey where I worked my absolute guts out and there were times where I was really lazy as well and I, I think I bullshitted myself at that time that I was so busy. So really be self aware with that, I think. And yeah, just be careful of that. It is hot. Owning a small business is really, really hard work.

And it's lonely.

It is lonely, but it also can be the most rewarding, amazing thing as well.

Absolutely. I love that. I think that's a good thing to wrap it up on. And I agree. I think it is hard work. And if you want to put, you know, be paying yourself a really good sustainable wage, I think you need to look at what your sustainability wage is. And let's be honest, in today's climate, $50,000 isn't really a sustainable wage for a long period of time. It doesn't buy you enough anymore. Right. So you really need to be pushing past that 250 because we know that that's kind of, you know, hopefully you are paying yourself a little bit more, but there isn't usually a lot more gravy in there if you're at a revenue under 250. So you really need to push past that so then you can take your wage up. So I think know your numbers so you know what you want to get to and what the goal is.

Amazing. Well, thank you so much for joining us in this first part of our little series on all the different and various wonderful stages of growing your dance studio. And can't wait to chat to you for part two. Thanks everyone.

Bye. We hope you enjoyed this episode of the Dance Principles United Podcast. If you'd love to learn more from us, we have a special offer just for our podcast listeners. Go to the link in the Show Notes right now to get two weeks free in Dance Principals United Tribe. We would love to see you there.