Shannon Atkins Wants Dance Studio Owners to Stop Stressing About This...

Hello friends, I'm Amanda Barr and I'm Rebecca Lou Brennan, and welcome to Dance Principles United, the podcast.

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This is the Dance Principles United podcast.

Well, hello friends, it's Bec here from the Dance Welcome back to the Principals United podcast. I am so, so excited to be joined today by the incredible Shannon Atkins. She is one of the biggest, most influential people in our industry. She's had a huge career and we've been so excited to actually chat together. Hi Shannon, how are you?

I am great, Bec. I'm so excited to finally be here.

I know, finally in the podcast studio. We've talked about this so much and here we are, which is amazing. I am So excited to share with everyone your journey because I think it's such a huge thing. And then we'll chat lots of stuff at the end. So I think you guys are going to really love this. But I wanted to start with, where did you grow up dancing? Tell me all the things. How did that all start for you?

I started in a little town hall in Lismore. Yep. With doing half an hour of tap and half an hour of ballet per week on a Saturday. That was it.

How old were you when you started?

I started when I was 5.

Yep.

And we did these exams, which I don't know if they still exist. BAL, which was the British Australasian Limited exam. Yeah, I don't know if—

I think that is still around.

Yeah, I mean, maybe very small, but they had exams in ballet, tap, they had character exams. Oh yes, jazz. It was very, um, it was very structured, but just 30 minutes on each. And then I think we added doing national character, it became an hour and a half of dance. For the longest time.

That's crazy. So you grew up at that studio your whole life?

No. So when we were 8, we moved to the Gold Coast, right? So we were in Sydney and I think I did a little baby ballet class. And then just when my parents divorced, we moved in with my grandmother and then we just went down to the local hall. And then when we moved to the Gold Coast, we'd been to the Lismore Steadford and watched some kids and Mum was like, I think this one's a good studio. And then we were in, like, it was— we went up to this studio, it was Diane Talbot Dancers, and it went from a 0 to 100. We were doing nearly every single day and multiple solos and all of— we were in.

Was your mum a dancer?

Yeah, she danced growing up, and she actually ended up buying the dance school of that owner much when I was about 15. Oh wow. And she owned a comp as well, or at a Bedford.

I didn't know any of this. This is so crazy. Okay, so you were a big comp kid? Yeah, loved the competitions. I know it's changed a lot, hasn't it? We were talking about this the other day, like we had cassette tapes back in our day and, oh my God, mailed the entries, and just so different to what it is now. But you did really well in the comp world, right?

I did. I mean, it took a little while though. So yeah, I ended up at one point I had like something crazy, like 25 solos, which the kids today would be like, what? Yeah, I did. I had— because there's championship sections where you have—

yes, I remember. Yes, I used to do this. You do ballet demi, then ballet and demi again, two different routines, and then you'd have lyrical contemporary and then lyrical contemporary again in the championship.

And the jazz.

Jazz.

Oh, and I had, I had a tap, a waltz tap, a fast tap, a tap medley. Yep. And then another slow and fast for the championship. Yeah. Song and dance, song and tap, and an extra for the song and dance championship.

Yep.

Yep. We were just one of those studios where a lot of us had every category, right? But we didn't replace them every year. Like, you keep— I have my walls tapped for like 4 years. We just add in some, some wings, some trickier things, and then—

crazy. So then did you go to full time?

No. So I did, I did really well, particularly in my I progressed to doing really well. So I think for me, that's personally, I'm glad I peaked when I did because I kept interested, I kept having a goal. So I started to do really well. And then by the, by my final year, I like, I really was doing well in everything. And then at the end of, I guess, grade 12, I was already doing— we had some pro and musicals on the Gold Coast that I did as well. So I did 42nd Street when I was about 14. And I got to choreograph Oklahoma on the Gold Coast with a pro-am company.

Yep.

And we definitely had other things going on, not just the Steadfords. But when I got to the end of grade 12, I just, I thought, I want to be, I want to be a lawyer. But I know, and so, and I was really, really academic and went to an academic high school.

Yep.

But I was working at Movie World on the Gold Coast as a performer, right, which which was The Route. That was sort of like a pathway for a lot of performers that lived on the Gold Coast. A lot of people have gone on from there to do amazing things.

Absolutely.

I was there performing and teaching throughout uni, and I remember when I was about 19, I was choreographing that dance school, which was the, you know, the famous Paradise Performers. Um, you know, Michelle Hopper went there. A lot of really iconic dancers grew up there, and As soon as I walked in the door on the first night, she said, can you teach? So I was already teaching elite performance groups when I was only about 19, like the older kids as well. And just at the end of the university degree, I got approached by somebody who said, look, could you— would you want to start a studio? And I thought, like, I really wanted to do law, but I thought, I'll just give it one year. I'll just open a studio for a year. No, like, ah.

That's insane. So you never did anything with the law degree?

No. I mean, it's helped, trust me.

Of course, of course. But that's insane. And just going back to your teaching, do you reckon like because your mom owned the studio you started teaching younger? Were you just a born teacher? I feel like for me, I was— I mean, my mom didn't own the studio, but I feel like I was just a born teacher. Like I just went into that classroom, I was teaching at 14. Yeah, normal back in the day.

Yeah.

And I was choreographing at that age and I just feel like I'm at home in that classroom. Were you like that?

Yeah. And I taught at the school I was at too. I didn't actually really teach for my mum. I didn't like— I wanted to still be dancing myself. It was when I went to Paradise Performers that I taught a lot there and started doing a lot and ended up doing heaps. And she really showed me the pathway on how to teach, which was great.

Yeah, it's amazing to have a mentor like that.

Oh, and just— it was strict and it was a bit scary, but it was still— that was the way to go. But yeah, I think, look, the choreography, the teaching, the way with the kids, having that natural gift to get kids to work hard, to have kids have to like you and respect you. I think, yeah. And I'm very— I'm just a really driven, competitive person, so I wanted the best for every single person. So I think that combined. I also just think sometimes you get thrown into a path rather than the path finds you rather than you finding it. And it just— everything flowed, and I've just had such massive success that's always unfolded, sort of proving to me that this is the way my life is meant to go.

I love that. But I feel like you probably trust— yeah, things as well. So you opened the studio. How long did you have it for?

Well, I had a little team when I was at uni called Dynamite Dancers, right? Um, from like— I think that was 2004 to 2007. Yes, while I was doing law. And we did a couple of groups as well. And then I opened the school 2007, and then I sold it at the end of 2014.

Okay, so 7 years, so a pretty long time to have a thing you loved most about the studio and thing you hated most.

I loved just each week coming in, seeing the individual progress of each kid.

Absolutely.

You know, and seeing each journey and just the, you know, going to the comps. We had so much fun, you know, and you grow really close and very attached to seeing— to those kids and seeing it through for them. Um, and just also the routine. Like, I could live locally, you know. Now obviously that's just not what I do. And you had a routine. This is what you do on a Monday, and this is what you do in July. It's this comp on this weekend. Like, you had a structure for your year that didn't vary too much. So that was great. I enjoyed that. Yep. Hated Oh, I just felt a lot of pressure and I was young. I was only 31 when I sold. So you got to think, I'm in my 24s opening a school and being a school where there's a lot of success. I felt a lot of pressure and I'm sure no one meant it from parents. I know, you know, you have your years and we started on top, which I think in hindsight is very hard.

So hard.

There's the only way to go. And I had started just kind of with really elite kids that I'd taught that had followed me from different places during my uni days. And so, you know, to then add in all these kids that wanted to come into that, it just— you can't, you can't do the unthinkable. And then you had back then parents not wanting to do Sundays or anything extra, but they wanted those results. Really hard. And I just, in the end, just the pressure basically from parents I totally agree.

And I feel it today. Like, and I think any high-level studio feels it is so hard. And the standard now is just getting crazier and crazier. And the expectations on me as a studio owner to have these kids at such an elite level at such a little age, it's out of control. I talk about this all the time on the podcast. Like, it is so out— I don't have an answer for it either, Shannon. I'm not saying that by any means, but if you want kids to be competitive, they have to be at this insane elite level. Like, you're judging, you know, these kids are— it's crazy.

Oh, any of them, there's a good— you know, there's so many working hard and putting it in and putting in the, in the work. And any of them, depending on who the judge is and what they like, could really be the winner. And I think that's what people don't understand. Oh, 100%.

Like, you can have 20 kids in a section, all 20 could get first.

I know. And then you get a parent come up to you and, what feedback do you have for me? As if because the kid was fifth, that it— that's not a failing. Yeah, that's just how it went that day.

Yeah. You know, splitting hairs, isn't it? Like, it really is splitting hairs. It's crazy. Absolutely crazy.

Yeah.

Insane. So finished up with the studio and then you just became this massive international star. That's— that was pretty much the next step, so was it?

I mean, during the studio too, I started the Queensland Conservatory of Musical Theatre course, the university course in Brisbane that's had so many leads in musicals. So I was doing that dance program too during my studio.

Of course you were.

And I know, and choreographing musicals for them. So I've always really loved musical theater, right? I don't know how I was doing all of that. All I can say is you maybe more energy in your 20s. I don't know.

I don't know that you've stopped.

No, I have stopped. Um, uh, let's— yeah, so then I, I just thought, I'm 31, if I really want to experience living overseas, and I always had it in my mind that I did, I thought I have to do it now. I have to make a big and a few things again, a few signs. I always look for the signs. My studio venue, we had lots of issues on the Gold Coast with car parking and they were then the person that owned it was selling it. And I thought, this is either make or break. You're going in on a big mortgage to build a new studio or you're going to sell or close and just bite the bullet. I'd been going over to New York. A few people had, I had in classes had said, if you were ever over here, we would love to use you for this project, that project. And I thought, you know what, I want to— I've always felt this great attachment to New York. If I want to live there, it's now. And I just went— I worked with a really great life coach and we worked through the visa process. It arrived on the day that we manifested it. And I know that that probably sounds really crazy. The visa went through, the sale of the studio went through. A lot of things again really lined up for me. And devastating to have to sell and move on. But yeah, I went overseas and again, I started at the bottom in New York. I really did. I was teaching at rec studios. I was down in the depths of Brooklyn teaching, you know, kids in schools. Wow. And really worked my way up. And then doors started opening and, you know, and actually, I know it's horrible to say, but the pandemic really helped me elevate as well.

Yeah. I, I'm the same. Like, the pandemic was probably my best time in business, and it sounds silly, but it's because I had the space to actually create in my head what I wanted to achieve. Does that make sense?

Yeah.

And you're running all the time, you don't have that space. But during the pandemic, for me anyway, I had the space.

Yeah.

But what was it for you?

Well, for me, I think I was very— I was very willing to put the hard yards and hours into Zoom, right? And I had I had American, European, and Australian people that were all in lockdown.

Yep.

And I was good on Zoom and not everybody was, and a lot of people didn't like it. And then I broke my leg and that was even better. I remember the lady that was running, hosting my BDC classes. We always had a host. Yeah. And I actually ended up finding out it was, it was Frank Hatchett's daughter. Like someone really famous was hosting and she, like when I broke my leg She said more kids have come on, like more, because I was teaching, because I figured out a way to get a kid on, teach them before the day before, and they could demo. And she said, I think that they like it because now you're not dancing and looking behind you. You know how we were doing that? She said you're sitting and watching, and these kids want you to watch. These— not kids, dancers want you to see them. And so we had like pages of Zoom. Like, BDC was like, we can't believe this. Like how many come each week. And I just think then when I got back, it was so many people like, well, we need to meet you and dance with you in person now. And I was getting asked here, there, and everywhere because of that.

Wow. I think that like, it was incredible at that time because people just wanted to connect. You know, we kept every class going at Paws, every single class, and the kids turned up every single lesson because they were bored at home and they wanted to connect with each other. The fact that you found that is so amazing. Yeah, amazing. So that's when you started judging, or were you already judging?

I was already judging. Yeah, I was definitely already judging. But I didn't— the pandemic brought me back to Australia too. So I feel like having left in 2014, I hadn't— I'd only come back for like 6 days, or I wasn't really teaching in the current climate of Australian dancing. And so that allowed me to really connect with everyone here. And judge here.

Yeah.

And I think too, it was great. The comps were like, well, you haven't been here in like 6 years. And a lot of these comps, I remember Get the Beat did its first year, for example, one of the big comps when I was like, when I was ending my studio, that was their first year.

Right.

And I think it was one of my students won. It was like a small comp. They only had solos and it was either Karen or Hannah won.

Yeah.

The big thing that they had for the first time. And showcase— like, I'd had winners in 2009, like Dance of the Year, but I hadn't really been back, and social media had connected everyone so much more. So I think that got me out here in Australia as well, because I was like, great, here we are, and all these new studios have popped up, and I was able to really make the rounds here, which helped my name here.

Yeah, that's so incredible. So tell me about judging, because you're an incredible judge. I know my students absolutely love your feedback. What are you looking for when you're judging? What do you love? Tell me all the things.

When I'm judging, honestly, all the kids, as I said, they're so good. I want them to feel super supported when there's a judge. Like, we're here to— they're kids at the end of the day. Yes. So I want them to come out, see me, really see me smiling and really engaged. But I want to give them constructive feedback because whether they're going to win or not win, I think at least they're going to get my comments. And even the winner will get, will get things to work on. And I think if you can give them that and give them what they're doing really well, because everyone needs— they're all putting in the hard yards.

They are.

They need to know what they're doing well. The teachers need to hear what they're doing well.

Yes.

They need to hear. But then if you can give them the tips to work on in a nice, constructive but nice way that they're going to respond to, And again, sitting in that chair, I've been told all over the world the kids get excited when you're there. They know that you are so invested in them.

Yes.

And I think I love judging for that reason, and it just gets hard because I do so much teaching. Um, and I, it does get hard because it's, oh, Shannon knows this one, that one. That doesn't even play into it for me. No, it really doesn't. I sit and look at the kid on the day with what they're doing. And what I'm looking for is someone— I mean, it's great if— I mean, great, do your backflip, nail it. But I want to feel something. I really want to feel something from a kid. I love— I get— I know, and it doesn't happen all that often. I get goosebumps. Some very rare. Yep. But when it happens, I'm like, okay. And I wish the kids knew too that one little wobble or one little— like, sometimes, yes, it's splitting hairs and you might have to go back to, oh, they both gave me goosebumps. What happened, did someone wobble? But they punish themselves over that.

Yeah.

And I'm like, that is really not going to make or break, you know? And I wish they knew that because they're humans on the stage and we know that because we've all— well, not like it, maybe not everyone has, but we— I've danced, I've been in their shoes. That doesn't take away from whether or not you can see they're an amazing dancer or performer. But like, I was, you know, I've been thinking about recently with the Olympics, with the ice skating. I wish more and more that we were allowed to connect more with the dancers as judges.

Yes.

Because at a big comp like dance, you know, for these kids, Dance Through the Year or Champs, that is their Olympics, you know, that is where— and their parents, and we're putting in the hours like it is the Olympics.

Yeah.

So I wish we were able to, as a judge, connect more with them, and you would trust the integrity of the judge to go in. Because at the Olympics, I noticed the ice skating judges go in and give them go in and watch their routines and give them feedback.

Yeah, right.

I love that. And then they're like, imagine a month or two before, you know, you know who the judges are going to be and they're going to come around, or one or two of them are going to come around to your studio if you want that.

Yeah.

And give feedback. Incredible.

I think that's so missing in so many aspects now. Even the RAD, the examiners used to talk to you at the end of your exams, and now they're not allowed to do that anymore. So it's like, where do we as teachers then get feedback? But you know what else I think would be amazing about that is that the kids then would probably see the places as not so important. Because you and I both know no one's really going to care— no offense— when you get to cruise ship audition whether you won showcase nationals or not. It's not going to mean anything. None of that is going to matter, but what you— except what you do in on the day in the actual audition room. And that confidence from those judges seeing and actually being in the classroom with you would be insane.

And it'd be great for the teachers. Imagine, like, I come in and again, it's—

I still—

it's an opinion-based sport, but I do know that I have had the, you know, I've driven myself to go around the world and really see what's out there. So imagine I'm in there with the teach— the coach as well, the teacher, and I'm like, oh, look, this part really sit that well on, on dancer X, you know, and then, then they, they rock up at finals or Dancer of the Year and they're like, well, there she is and I'm going to show her that I've really worked on it. And they can— the teacher and that dancer can elevate because isn't that's what it should be about, elevating the dancer.

Yes.

And usually on those panels. So just say I've gone in or I know the kids because I've taught heaps of places. I'm not the only one on the panel. Like, it's not You know, I can't rule how that's going to go.

Exactly. And I, I mean, I know you and I know your integrity is, you know, so strong with that. And I think, of course, you're just going to judge what is there on the day. And I also know that kids can go out on the day and crush it and other times not. And that's a learning experience as well for them. You know, they need to learn that they're not going to win all the time because they're going to go into 1,000 auditions and not get chosen as well. It's a, it's a part of the industry, isn't it?

Life.

It is life. It is life. And And I think, yeah, that would— okay, any comps out there that are listening to this, that would be so cool. Do they do anything like this in the US? And how are US comps different? Well, they're very—

we've adopted a lot of the US ideas. I know Peter was the first one. He adopted that and the excitement and, you know, it gave a real fun feel to it rather than just in a Steadford, you know. They're very, very similar and it's getting harder even over there in a bigger country they'd be like, oh, Shannon, where can you go? Oh, we can't have you there. Well, they used to be like, you were there last year, so we don't want you to go there. But the country was big enough to generally mean that you probably hadn't talked. But now that we all get flown around over there and social media, it's hard.

Yeah.

So then sometimes again, it's like, yeah, you will probably know a handful of kids because of— it's not the same as it used to be, you know, where we didn't have phones and social media. Yeah. But they're very similar. The kids don't do as many solos. They only do usually maximum 2.

Really?

Maximum. Yeah. A season.

They're elite, elite kids.

Elite kids.

Well, is that 2 plus champs or that's just 2 solos?

2 solos.

Oh, that's crazy.

There's not really a champs. I mean, the dance awards is different, but at a regional, just a normal comp. Yeah. On the— they go with the studio and it's usually over 3 days and they do every routine, every group, every solo. But because it can only fit in those 3 days, you can only really do 2 solos. There's no time. Imagine you doing 6 solos. Imagine every kid's doing their 6 solos over 3 days.

Right.

So it's, um, yeah, you're doing your groups and your solos. You're there for the whole 3 days.

Right.

But cost of entries is a little different as well over there.

More expensive. Yes.

So I think they really probably can only afford to do 2. To do 2.

Yeah. Okay.

But they ditch them. So they do 2. Learn them, what, maybe August, polish them. Then, you know, some will do conventions, but then they start their performing beginning of the year, the January, and then they do a Nationals in summer, June or July, and then those solos are gone on to the next two. Yeah, they may keep one and replace and just replace one, and so they've got two kind of going. Some kids only one.

Yeah, that's— and that like has merit as well because they can really hone in on that, whereas A lot of our kids are doing 3, 4 solos in a half-hour slot each week. It's too hard.

Yeah.

Clean it and to make it look as amazing as it should look. So that's really, really interesting. And it's similar styles to us as what we have here. It's different.

Yeah, it is similar. I think at the moment, like most kids would do a lyrical and a jazz or a lyrical and an open or a contemporary. They're sort of the 3 genres. Hip-hop, yes, but only if you are an absolute, like, elite hip-hopper or a tapper. You do those two. There's no ballets at the comps, really.

Yep.

It's real. And they're like a— a jazz is more of a— it's not really commercial over there. It's more of a broad, more of a jazzy jazz. They might do La Jazz Hot in the jazz.

Yep.

So it's that vibe. They do have a Broadway section But again, it's if they're only going to get to do two, they usually do a lyrical and a jazz or a lyrical and a contemporary or an open.

Yeah. Interesting.

Yeah.

So different. And like, you're on the panel for auditions, you're, you know, all of these. What are they looking for then in auditions?

I always think at all auditions, again, as soon as you walk in the door, you've got to know how to dress. I think the professionalism, the grooming, how you enter the room.

Trackies?

No, definitely not. Oh my gosh, don't start me on the trackies. No, it's definitely not trackies for most— well, for at least the things I'm on.

Of course.

So you're looking for the professionalism as soon as they walk through that door. Yep. And technique. You know, a lot of the time it is an across the floor exercise or a ballet exercise is the first thing.

Yep.

And so if you haven't got that, and you can tell within 2 seconds of looking at a dancer, even as they walk across the room, a lot of heels work for females. Like, that's, you know, it's, it's a lot of that when they get older. And but technique, you need to see endurance, you know, the stamina, how they can keep developing. It's when the kids are like, oh, we've done that combo, you know, even. And that's how it is for a lot of kids. They're like, oh, we like that one. It's like, what if you were doing a show 8 times a week? You're not learning a new combo for each show. You've got to make that fresh. You got to show me throughout the day. That's why when I'm doing combos in class and they do group after group and I make sure they do it, I'm like, don't show me how you can get worse. Show me how you can keep making it better, that you're still working, that you're still trying to change it up.

I love that.

And I think, you know, a lot of the time they just want new material, new material. But they're not working. And if they're kept all day at an audition, they have to do that combo like 10 times without fatiguing out and showing us that they can get it better.

Yes.

But without a technical foundation for most things, you know, and even hip-hop, they've got to have foundation. I'm not sure, you know, there's in New York, there's a lot of footwork classes and taking it right back and house classes so that they know the difference. I don't know I don't do a lot of hip-hop, but I don't even know how much the kids would know about the differences in the styles they're doing and foundations. So, you know, I think, but first and foremost, for the auditions I run, they have to come in and they have to show that they have studied technique.

Yes. And now I'm trying to drum this into our kids all the time. And I know that ballet is often the first thing auditioned, like for Lion King. Yeah. You know, there's not a pointe shoe to be seen in that musical, but all those girls had to get their pointe shoes out. So it's like they don't, they don't see that because it's not what's cool on Instagram right now. But when they get into that world, they're going to be in for a rude shock if they haven't bothered to do their ballet training.

Well, it's going to limit them. That's what it's going to do. And I hate that. I like to think we're in Australia at the moment. The fact of the matter is the job pool is small. Shows left, right and center are getting, you know, cut and they're getting shortened seasons. So the job's up for grabs. You want to give your dancer the best chance to have a job, whatever that is. And that means versatility.

Yes.

And not just going, well, we're just— I'm just a commercial dancer, because you know how many other amazing commercial dancers there are in London and New York as well. But you may be able to get something else, but not if you haven't looked at it in years and years and years. So I think narrowing them down as an educator is one of the worst things you can do.

Yep.

Uh, because if they really want a career in this and they've sacrificed their dropped school or they've not gone on to uni or whatever it is, or they've decided that this is what they're focusing on, then they should be given the— they should be given the training and the scope to have options.

Yes. The way I explain it to my dancers is you're either this many— and my— if you're listening to this, my fingers are very close together— this many contracts if you just want to do that commercial dance, you know, backup dancer for who, and then this many if you do ballet, singing, drama, you know, acting lessons. Like, there's just so much that these kids now aren't doing because they're so focused on the trophy. But it's going to be a big issue when they get out into the real world, right?

Like, it's going to be messy. And the Instagram video.

Yeah.

Which, you know, and the comp, because comp dancing really is mostly only great for comps. It can teach you discipline. It can expose you to choreographers and all of that, give you confidence. All so many wonderful things that it does do.

Absolutely.

But I think overall training, especially when they hit a full-time level, if that's what they're doing, it really should be concentrated towards how can we open them up to get a job. Yeah. You know, and they should, when they hit full-time, I think have a good idea of what maybe that, you know, I often ask, what do you want to do? Backup dancing. And I'm like, well, what does that look like?

Yes. Who are you going to backup dance for? Who's the choreographer? Who's on the audition panel? What is the audition process for that. Like, there's so many questions that they need to ask themselves. Yep. You know, and try and find out so that they know exactly what they are. If that's really their dream, they need to know a lot more than just backup dancer.

Like, a lot of it's technical work too. A lot of it's technical dancing. It's not what they— in their little— in their small— small— not small, that's not the right word. I mean, it is hard. We live in Australia and they're exposed to only so much.

Yep.

but do they need to do the investigating?

Yes, absolutely. And as studio owners, I think we need to help them with that. You know, even whether they are going to go to a full-time school and which full-time school suits them, because I really do feel that different full-time studios suit different types of children and they need to— we as studio owners, I think it's our responsibility to find out what does that full-time offer and what does that offer and which child fits into which basket, or do they even need full-time?

Sometimes they don't.

Yeah, sometimes they're so beautifully trained and ready to go that they don't need that. And sometimes they should go to a singing and drama full— like, you know, there's so many. You work at all of the different full times, you know, like there's just different kids for different places.

And it's always great to have all of those full times going. You don't want everyone going to the same one anyway because we need to have them all going so that everyone's driven to offer the next, you know, to really level up. You know, that's how humans work. Um, so I think— and it is great because because all the kids do hone in on different things that they want. And so I do think it's really awesome. And the dance here has such a good reputation overseas, like Australian dancing, you know, like they really does that. We're really on the map for it, that, um, it, it is exciting, but it's just important that it's really, I think, opened the scope. And even when it comes back to that ballet, it's not just you know, well, I'm not going to use that fouetté or I'm not going to— it's, it's about the, the injury, the strength that you build from doing ballet so that you can have a long career.

Yes.

And your body has the muscle development, the elongation. And it's like, you know, when you get up and you do, you know, as a human, you might get up and do your morning routine, whether mine's meditation, journaling. I almost feel like that lays the foundation for my day to be better. And I think ballet lays the foundation for any dancing. My friend teaches hip-hop in New York and he goes and takes when he can, you know, beginner tap class because he's like, my rhythm. I begin a ballet like, you know, ballet though, is that foundation that can make everything better because your body's stronger, your mindset. And I just think that's where they're not— the kids aren't— again, they're kids. Yes. In their minds, they're like, I'm not going to do a plié in my backup dancing career.

Yes.

And I get that they think like that. But I think if they are educated on why it's so that they— their bodies can withstand the training and the demands that they might need when they're backup dancing, that they might understand a bit better why it's important.

I love that. I love that so much. I love your coffee catch-ups with Shannon.

They're so good.

Um, you're giving so much little nuggets of advice to everyone. You— what's your biggest advice to steer owners out there?

I think again, like I was saying with the full-time, there really is a place for everyone. And it's, it's hard in this, um, I guess this FOMO, looking at, you know, other people and thinking, oh, they're doing that and they've got that teacher. I think it's really important. I remember when I had my school we like to be all-rounders and I, I liked them to do ballet and song and dance and, and all of that. And I, you know, it was sort of becoming a trend to just do jazz and lyrical. And then some of the schools didn't make them do the ballet I was doing. And I, for a while I thought maybe I'm going to have to drop that rule. I'm going to lose kids. It never works if it's not the— if it's not your vision.

Yeah, I love that.

And you won't believe in it if you're not, and you won't keep the kids anyway. You know, exactly. I think it's like my biggest advice is let them go if it's not right for them, but keep true to what your vision is for your school and what you believe the dancers are. And just every now and again, have a check-in with yourself. I used to have to do this and go, hang on, yes, this is my school and I want to be successful, and it is a little bit about me too. Yeah, but ultimately I'm a teacher. It's about these children, and they may— 99% will probably not do that much with it. Yep. But this is their childhood and how they're spending it, you know? And I kind of wish I could go back and talk to 25-year-old Shannon at the studio that was like, we have to win.

Yes.

You know, because the kid ultimately, they loved, they, they loved me anyway, you know? And I think it's, you're creating those memories that will stick with them and set them up for adulthood, whatever job they do, whatever role in life they do.

Exactly.

And give them tools they're not going to get anywhere else. Yep. Fitness, confidence. And often that studio, like I said in one of my podcasts, my Coffees with Shannon last week, I was talking to a friend and he was going through a hard time and he goes, you don't understand, like the arts. I just thought I've had a bad day, but I'm going to get to the studio. This is even as a kid. I'm going to be with my friends and we're going to put on— they're going to put— the teacher is going to put on some good music and I'm going to get to dance it out.

I love that.

And my phone's like, the phone's down. You know, and they're with their friends and they're in a special little environment that can save so many kids too.

Oh, 100%.

Not kids even leading a hard life, just from the demands of what, what life is like now.

Absolutely.

So absolutely, those are the biggest things you as a dance school, you have to remember when you're feeling, uh, you're offering the most precious commodity to these kids.

Exactly. You are the most incredible human. I have had the most wonderful time with you. Thank you so, so much. And, um, it's been an amazing podcast. I You guys are going to absolutely love this. Thanks so much for coming in.

I loved it. We could talk for hours.

We could. All right, guys, have a great week and we will see you all next week. Thanks so much. Bye-bye.

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