How to Break Perfectionism and Avoid Burnout

Get ready because everything is about to change. There's a new way of living life and doing business that will blow your mind. This is a podcast all about the timing of life and the timing of success. It's what we call the Right on Time life. And you are listening to the Right on Time podcast with Amber McHugh. Hey there, Amber McHugh here. I am so excited to be hanging out with you today. In today's conversation, we're going to be chatting it up with Dr. Morgan Levy. And if you have ever felt like you try to take time off to recharge, vacation, maybe you've got teed up, maybe it's just the weekend and you can't do it. You can't refuel, you can't re energize because your brain keeps going. Maybe you've got guilt about being away from work. Maybe you just can't turn it off. In fact, winter break of this past year, it was so clear and so distinct to me. It took me a solid six days to unwind. Now, fortunately, it was about a two and a half week break that I had there. The kids had off school, the holidays, like, man, it has taken me a long time to unwind this year. Usually it does not take me that long, but it was taking me much longer to unwind. I think it's because we were running right up until the end and my adrenaline was still going. We had a lot of big stuff going on. But if this has ever been your experience, like, oh man, I'm trying to recharge but I come back and I don't feel energized. I cannot turn things off. You are definitely going to want to listen in. Morgan knows how difficult it can be to cultivate balance in an achievement driven world. You in fact may be a high achiever who needs the skills to stop putting on a performance in all aspects of your life and really breathe in to the life that you want and the life that you want to build. So I am just so excited for this conversation with Morgan. We dive into what is burnout, what is perfectionism? And what are things that you may want to think about and do to start to untangle and look at what perfectionism is rooted in. That really resonated with me. And dive into how we can start to untangle this. Let's do it. Let's get into this combo with Dr. Morgan Levy. Dr. Morgan Levy, thank you for joining us. How are you?

Oh, I'm good. Thank you so much for having me here. I'm so Excited.

Oh, my gosh. So pumped. You have so much expertise around something that is really coming up for people in a big way right now. Burnout, as well as perfectionism just comes up for so many people all the time as we're trying to move things forward. So this is going to be an awesome episode where we get to dive into some of this. And how do we define these things? I just wanted to start there at the top of the, like, how do we talk about burnout? Perfectionism? How do you think about these things?

Yeah, great question, because especially burnout, it's such a hot, like, topic these days, and people talk about it in so many different ways, but really, burnout is just this chronic syndrome that we get from the burden of working too hard without any rest. And then perfectionism is when we have really high expectations for ourselves and for others that are just impossible to meet.

Oh, my gosh. Do you find that these two things are intertwined?

Absolutely. So, so many people who are burned out could get that way because of their perfectionism, because they're not able to meet the standards or the expectations that they set for themselves, because they're just impossible to meet.

Impossible. Where does this come from? Why do we do this to ourselves?

Yeah. Oh, I love talking about this. So with perfectionism, what I've noticed is that a lot of people when they're young, they received a lot of praise for doing well in school or achieving things or, you know, reaching goals. And so they begin to learn, like, okay, if I do these things, then I get praise. And then as a kid, we sort of internalize that praise as love and worthiness. And so we just start to learn that the more we produce, the more that we do, the more love we get. Even though that might not necessarily be the case, that's what we sort of internalize. And so we keep doing that because we think in order to get that acceptance, that worthiness, that connection, we need to produce things.

Wow. I was just reading a book. This brings to mind two things for me. The first is that I am reading the Optimistic Child is the name of the book. Have you heard of it?

I have not. Let me write that down.

Okay. Yeah. Martin Seligman, I always worry I'm going to say his name, wrote this, and he is deeply immersed in the positive psychology space. I'm reading this book, and one of the first things early on that they talk about is how when sometimes parents will say to children, like, oh, you're doing great. You're doing great. Okay, you're struggling with that. Let me help you with it. And then we just go into that space of positive, positive, positive, the encouragement that you're talking about. And he talked a little bit about some of the negative effects that they can have. Like, maybe they're struggling. Like, be there in it with them. Don't ease the burden. Do you think that's somewhere related to this as well?

Exactly. And that also sounds like that ability to tolerate discomfort when we're always sort of, like, taken out of it, we don't learn that we can handle it. When we're given that chance to make mistakes, to fail, to feel anxious even then we learn that we have the skills to work through it and to move through it.

Oh, my gosh. I've been working through a somewhat uncomfortable situation leading up to us sitting here the last week, week or two, and hearing you say those words. Okay, this discomfort is okay. I don't like it, but it's going to be fine. It's going to be fine, ultimately. So what do we do to, like, move into a space? No, it's fine. Like, how do you cope through these things? I mean, I've been doing something like talking to people who are encouraging and will help me navigate. I did meditate a little bit. I've been doing some research to kind of calm the rational side of my mind. So there are some steps I'm taking. What do you think of these steps? What would you recommend when people are in that space of, like, this does not feel good.

Yeah. So what I recommend is to sort of sit in it. And I think the steps you're taking fit with that. And that's when I would recommend practicing mindfulness, which is just sitting in the feelings and being curious about what you're feeling, even though it might feel really terrible without trying to push it away. Because the more we try to push things away or ignore it, the more it just bottles up and builds up and makes us feel worse.

Yeah, it's hard to ignore sometimes when you, like, have that feeling. Like, I can't ignore it. Like, it's so uncomfortable. So, you know, you talk about something like creating those mindfulness shifts to navigate this discomfort. What are some of those things that you pull through from a strategy and recommendations?

Oh, yeah. One of my favorite techniques is called the stop technique, because a lot of times when people practice mindfulness, they think they have to meditate, but you don't. And so it stands for stop, take a breath, observe, and proceed. So you stop, you take a breath and then observe. That's when you're really practicing that mindfulness strategy of just noticing, going through your senses. What do you see? What do you hear? What do you taste? What do you smell? What do you physically feel? What does your body feel like? What are you thinking in that moment? What emotions are coming up for you? And without judging them, just simply noticing what's happening. Because by doing that, you're able to then practice that mindfulness and ground yourself a little bit more. And then you proceed and move forward.

Okay, this makes a lot of sense. Stop. Take a beat. Observe. Proceed. What is happening? Why does this process work? Like, why? Like, okay, all right. Take a beat, everybody. Or just by myself, really? Everybody to myself, everybody. Amber, take a beat. Why does this work?

Well, for some people, I guess it depends on the situation too. But if you're really overwhelmed, it might not necessarily calm you, but it can calm you. But it's about sort of bringing you into the moment so you don't start spiraling. You're just noticing what's happening instead of it just escalating and having you react in a way that you might not want to react.

Okay. I have certainly been in and in conversations with people and myself, been in those spaces where, okay, I'm smiling early right now, like, my thoughts are going to not healthy places, and that's not productive. And then, you know, emotionally, like, okay, this is a level of anxiety that isn't helpful. But how would you define spiraling? What does that spiraling look like? Did I describe that right?

Yeah, yeah. So when you start thinking, like, for example, oh, no, I didn't get this done on time. Now I'm a failure. What are they going to think of me? I feel terrible now. Why do I always mess up? Like, sort of just going on and on with that self criticism instead of just saying, you know what? I procrastinated. Right now I feel really anxious and upset and like, period, I feel anxious and upset. That's it. We don't have to then judge ourselves for it. It's almost like just acknowledging what's happening in the moment without judging ourselves.

Okay. That's so hard sometimes, though. And I'm pretty good at now practicing. My sister actually said this to me when she's like, man, no judgment there. I'm like, nah, is what it is. Like, what are we gonna do? Because when I go to that space of judgment, I find that it again, it creates a little bit more, okay, uncomfortable feelings in my being. But it's really hard sometimes. Like, I'm good at it. But then other Times I'm like, oh my gosh, I just went there, I went there and I couldn't even control it. How do you start to shift from having a mind that is judging a situation yourself, judge others wherever the judgment is placed to not. And is judgment ever good?

Right. So that's such a good question because we're going to judge. We're humans, we're going to judge ourselves, we're going to judge others, but then it's almost like catching ourselves judging and noticing. Okay, I'm judging myself right now. Let me go back to practicing that mindfulness. It's definitely something that takes a lot of time and it's not just so easy of all of a sudden, okay, I'm mindful. I'm never going to judge. Like, that's not realistic.

What are the negative effects of judging?

So when we're judging ourselves or others, that's when we have that inner critic. We can start experiencing burnout. We'll procrastinate things. We're not productive. We can't focus. It could harm relationships.

Yeah, I mean all like the keywords that come up so often when we're working hard at something or trying to get somewhere we want to be going. We're in that space of judgment and then judgment and perfectionism. Closely related.

Yeah, because most of the time perfectionists don't actually think they're perfectionists because they think a perfectionist is somebody who's completely organized, they never make mistakes. But that's really not true. Usually a perfectionist is just somebody who really evaluates their self worth and other people's self worth based off of their really impossible to meet expectations and standards. And then that's where that judgment comes in of thinking, well, I'm not good enough or they're not good enough. And then it also creates a like inauthenticity in relationships because you might worry about being your true self because you don't want people to see mistakes. Because if they see mistakes, then they might not value you or love you or find you worthy, you know, in this.

So I was recently checking out some of your stuff on Reddit and I gotta say, as you're listening to this, and if you want to go deeper with Morgan, I mean Morgan, you're going to tell us all the places to go deeper with you. And also I was going into some of your Reddit threads like, oh my gosh, these conversations are supportive, they're loving, they're kind, they're thoughtful. You were driving a lot of that. And also other commenters were also pretty supportive. And then contrasting that with a space I was in this weekend checking out a couple of things like, oh, my gosh, people. People were not being kind to this person who posted a question. You know, it doesn't even matter what the question was. She was feeling nervous. You know, all sorts of things happening in her post and then some kindness. But a lot of judgment, a lot of criticism, a lot of right. Really things that would hurt. I mean, it hurt me reading. I was hurting for this person. It was an anonymous post. And we are in spaces where, man, judgment just floods in from people you don't even know. You post something on the Internet and it can come fast and furious. So how do we, in this day and age, when things are coming in so rapidly, when there is such a strong judgment being made by people you maybe have never even met or had a conversation with, how do you regulate when there's such an intensity?

I know. It's so hard online. People find it so easy to be really hurtful when, you know, they could stay anonymous. And most of the time they would never say that to your face. It's really hard. Yeah. But, you know, I don't know if I have an amazing answer to that, but I would say. Well, one thing I actually like to keep on my desk is like a brag book about positive feedback I've received to sort of remind me of, you know, how, like, some of the good things that have happened that have made me feel good in moments like that. And then also setting not, you know, it's hard. I was going to say setting boundaries, but realistically, I know a lot of us are. It's going to be difficult to sort of put that away and not read the comments, but reminding ourselves like, they're just people. They're just people, too.

Yeah. A little grace, a little compassion. Yeah. And to be fair, in this post I was reading, some people did chime in and say, oh, man, maybe we should have a little bit more grace. It did not reset. So that was there. You could see that other people were feeling this, but there was a deep intensity. And that happens in spaces online. It also happens with ourselves. Right. Just not even talking to anyone. We're just going through those thoughts on our own. And I love what you shared about perfectionism. Not necessarily being like, when I think of perfectionism, like, okay, that thing can't go live, or I can't send that email until I read it 10 times and I get all typos out. In fact, that was me for a Long time. And then I just. I'm like, I did what I did. Matt, can you come in and hit send? I grabbed my husband. Grab. Work with the team. Someone, Anyone. Like, can you read it? Okay. And then can you just hit the send button? Because there is that look. But I do not have perfect pages. There are typos. Right. There are, like, my keyboards flipping from French to English on my phone. Like, I can't win. And every time I see a typo, I'm like, oh, I. Oh, what are they going to think about me? What are they going to say? So does that come up with some of the work that you do or people are questioning before we even do the work?

Yes. Yeah. And that's why a lot of perfectionists procrastinate, because they would rather avoid something than just start doing it and noticing all the mistakes and the flaws that might be coming up because of how we would evaluate ourselves on our work and what we do. I also want to point out, because I've heard this a lot, too, perfectionism isn't always a bad thing because it does help us with our success. So it's about learning where we can use it and where it might not be so helpful.

Okay, so what is. Yeah, what would be productive? Like, all right, you're torn, right? Okay, send it. No, don't send it. Like, if we think of the simple email, send it.

Don't.

Like, you're stuck in that space between, how do you know when. Like, all right, this is becoming unhealthy. Is unhealthy the right word? Or unproductive? Or how do we differentiate between helpful perfectionism and then when to, like, we gotta move on.

Yeah. So I would look at the specific situation and say, like, okay, is this good enough for this moment? Can I send that email or submit this document or whatever and still achieve what I want to achieve? And if you can, then do it if you know realistically, okay, no, I need to do a few more things. And that's when you move a little bit further. But I've noticed it also shows up a lot outside of work, at home. So at work, sometimes it makes sense to have more of those perfectionistic tendencies.

But.

But at home, maybe you don't need to have everything organized in a perfect way. You could let it be good enough.

Yeah, good enough. Good enough. I love that lens and that question of asking, like, okay, is it good enough? And when I worked through my MBA program, I was speaking with one of the mentors in the program, and they were a student who had graduated a couple years prior from this program. And. And we were going through a session and she shared, you know, you pour a lot of time into your work. And I was. Spent a lot of time on it, doing a lot of things, having a lot of fun with it. She said, I bet you could put a little bit less energy, effort. I'm into this. And you'd still be doing pretty good. Like, I still think of this. Obviously that was a long time ago and it still comes up. But, you know, it reminds me a lot. And I'm wondering if you see this too, if you see something else. But I've read recently burnout levels are like, they just keep ticking up. Right. As we look at 2018 data. 2019. Okay, 2022, of course. And then. Right. They just continued to. Especially with women who are being pulled in so many different directions. We're at home in a lot of instances, caretaking as well as trying to work and sort of carrying the things that we typically carry. And again, increased intensity. But it's increasing. And I find that with that there's also this lens of like workplaces looking for opportunities to. So, okay, how do we help people with this whole person mindset? But when we're. We've got a lot of entrepreneurs who are listening right now. When you're not going into a workplace every day, Even if you were going into a workplace and they were trying to foster an environment that helped you thrive as a whole person versus just engagement and productivity at work, it's still hard to reconcile this. But then when you're solo doing it and you've got to do it all for yourself, for lack of better set of words right now, how do you start to make that shift or what perspectives do you have on like this culture of perfectionism and burnout and what it's doing to us?

Yeah, it's awful. It's really hurting a lot of us. And I think you bring up a great point about it impacting women a lot. Because it's true. True women are expected to function in so many different roles and it can become very overwhelming. So one of the strategies that I recommend, which the research actually shows is pretty helpful, is taking. And it's really hard to start implementing, but for every 90 minutes of working, to have 20 minutes of intentional rest. So doing something that is restful and revitalizing.

Yeah. Yeah, I love it. Why is that? Where does that come from? Why 90 minutes break, the alternating and then the intentionality around that.

Yeah. So there was some studies, you know, I'M not a neuroscientist, so I won't be able to get into the nitty gritty details of it. But that our brain and our body, it goes through different cycles and that's the natural cycle of like recovery for us to, once we sort of exhaust ourselves, to then recharge. Yeah.

I've been looking at flow research recently and flow state, for anyone who's listening, are those moments when it's beyond peak performance and there's those moments when imposter syndrome melts away and you lose track of time and you are just in it and you're feeling it and it's flowing and you're like, okay, I got this. And one of the pieces of research was diving into also breaks. And an author suggested that, okay, when you get in that space of flow and like the creative, the work is flowing, the writing's flowing. He said what he does is he steps away from work when it's flowing. He's like, it's flowing. I could really stay in it. And I'm going to have to go back to it and look when it's a timeline and we'll link up this, the research and the book that I read this in in the show notes. I don't want to mix up the name right now, but when I'm in flow state, like from a work perspective and I'm writing, my family might come in and I'm supposed to be going to dinner. I'm like, I can't. It's finally coming. I'm feeling it. Like, don't talk. Don't break my routine and my rhythm. But he said, get up and walk away in that moment when it starts to flow, like maybe make a couple of notes and then you sort of return and you can get back to that space of it flowing again very quickly. But I really reacted to that. I was like, it's finally flowing. You want me to just walk away?

That's fascinating. What if I'm not done?

What if it's like really getting good at that 90 minute mark? Would you. What do you think of this research?

I know, that's so interesting. That's. That's such a good point. I'm thinking myself how I would feel. Because you're right. When you're in that flow and you're doing something, you just want to stay in it. I definitely want to have a look at that and read that. That's so interesting.

Yeah. I'm going to confirm the book. I want to check my notes. I've read Two books lately by Steven Cutler, who's diving into flow and has set up an institute for flow and high performance. And it's either Chasing Fire, I mix up these names, which is why, or it's in the Art of Impossible. But I'll confirm in my notes and post the right resources. I'll just post them both so everybody can check them both out. But yeah, it's so fascinating because you get going and walk away. Just walk away. How does this contribute to. Okay, perfectionism, burnout, and sort of reducing that intensity that we put out there.

Yeah, yeah. So there are this 12 stages of burnout. And most of the time we don't realize that it starts with that eagerness and that enthusiasm and that overworking. So we're so excited to start working and we just want to keep doing it. We take on new projects, not realizing that that's the start of burnout.

Oh my gosh. You can't even see it at that point because to your point when you said that enthusiasm, like, oh, I have that all the time. Let's go. And I can go for a long time before I hit a wall. I think many people listening probably can. And so intentionally builds in these breaks.

Okay. Exactly.

It's hard for me. How do you feel about journaling?

Oh, journaling is amazing. If it's something that you love, go for it.

Yeah. Also, in my MBA program, the professor required us to journal because there's benefits associated. And I enjoy journaling, but it's one of those things where I don't feel productive necessarily, as I'm like, oh, I got things to do. Journal. But it was so important to the creative process to write downloading ideas and shifting out of that space of high intensity work that they made us do it in the program as part of our grade. We could say anything, Right. Journal on whatever. And I always have to remind myself there are so many benefits of this. Just like breaks, right. Take the break, do that thing that's going to fuel you. Even if, even if you have that enthusiasm right now you're like, go, just go.

Exactly. Because we can't be productive if we don't allow for that rest time. So we could view like the journaling or the relaxing as being productive in a way because it's going to help us be, you know, reach a higher performance when we do go back to work.

Yeah. It's a totally different feeling, though. And it also describes. It goes back to what you were saying about at the very beginning of our conversation about that reward that you get when someone's giving you feedback or response, you're doing great. Keep going. Okay. Like, I don't get that when I'm journaling or when I'm meditating.

Right.

So do you have any thoughts on that? Like, how do you shift from this external validation. Right. That social media that we can get so quickly today in so many places to get those hits. Sometimes intense and scary, but oftentimes. Okay, yeah, keep going. Like, you got it. How do you bring it back?

Yes, I love that question. So that's when it's helpful to become in touch with our own values and what we truly want and what we truly need. Because there's so many times we're doing things because we think we should do it. And usually if we're doing something because we think we should do it, that should comes from external sources and not truly internally.

Yeah. Okay. So I think that this idea of don't do it, like, do you think you should do it or is it really aligned? I think it's hard to differentiate sometimes because I'm like, I do not believe. And I practice for a long time, like, get rid of the shoulds. Should. But I bet I still catch myself in that. Like, I'm very tuned into my values. I'm very tuned into where I want to be going. But I bet there are things that I am doing because subconsciously, even if it's not, like, present and top of mind, like, oh, there's got to be a layer of should in there. Is this making sense?

Yes, absolutely. It could be helpful in those moments to just, instead of saying, like, I should do it like I need to, because maybe there are things we don't necessarily want to do, but we need to do it to get to where we want to go. But by changing it from that should to that need, it becomes more of an internal focus rather than the external should.

Yeah, that's good. That's good. You talk. Well, we have talked about the mindfulness and pulling this through, the STOP approach and various strategies. Right. Journaling and other things that may be helpful. Do you recommend, like, should people get formal about this? Like, should you build a structure or a framework, or should you just kind of. All right, do it. Start to just be present and when it comes up, or is there something more structured that would help people? Like, all right, no, we're really going to do this.

So you could do it both ways. I recommend starting to practice every day, even if it's just for a few minutes of mindfulness. Some people like that formal, longer Meditation, which is great. Or you could just do a few minutes of that stop technique and grounding yourself to the moment because you're still practicing mindfulness, you know, while doing that. It doesn't have to be a meditation.

Yeah. So good. How would you define mindfulness?

Oh, yeah. Mindfulness is the ability to focus on the present moment without ruminating on the past or worrying about the future.

Yeah. Okay. I'm sure you're going to have this answer. Top of mind too. And I've got some ideas and we're like, okay, this is probably the answer, but I'm going to ask, you know, somewhat of the obvious as well. What are the benefits of focusing on the present, not ruminating and stepping into that? What does that do for us?

So many things. It helps with our focus, our attention, our productivity, our sleep. Anxiety, depression. It could help with physical symptoms. It could help in relationships and being more connected with others. Loneliness. It could help. Mindfulness has really been shown to help so much. It's amazing.

Yeah, this is so good. How long if we've got those perfectionism coming up, if you've got burnout that you're experiencing and feeling right now and you start to integrate some of these strategies to sort of shift everything that we've learned and those things that are deep rooted, how fast do you see progress, so to speak? I know you can't give an exact timeline, but do you have some examples of like, all right, these are the things you can expect to see as you start to step into being more mindful, being more present, being right. Practicing some of these things.

Yeah, it definitely is different for everybody when it comes to the timeline, but people start to like. Typically people notice feeling a little bit more relaxed and at ease pretty early on in practicing it. Now they don't necessarily feel relaxed all day, but they start noticing, you know, some of the effects pretty soon. Within a few weeks, I would say.

Yeah, it's pretty quick.

Yeah.

In my experience as well, and from some of the recent research I've been reading, when you start to implement these things, it's not like as quick as my migraine medicine. It's with it, which is thank goodness. That is quick but. Right. You start to see a shift. Like my husband and I, we've been practicing lately a lot of just being present to the idea and to the moments that we have gratitude and when we are savoring and so we naturally, like savor and have gratitude, we're like, okay, we are so grateful right now and we are expressing that or oh, this is savory. And it really, I started to monitor and watch, like, how am I feeling in those moments when we are doing that and how long after? And it's exponential. Like, I can't even, like, oh, man. It just is in your being and it impacts everything. And I'm a little bit more patient. And I think in those moments, the moments when I am, as I mentioned, like this weekend, like, okay, this is not going to a healthy place. I am worried about this. I am ruminating. It stands out so much more how powerful some of these things that you've talked about can be.

Yeah. That's amazing that gratitude practice is so helpful too. And just being in that moment and recognizing what you are feeling grateful for, really impactful.

So incredible. Morgan, what are we missing here? As we think about burnout, perfectionism, starting to ease up on yourself and put some of these mindfulness practices in place, what are we missing? What would you say? Like, anything across the board, whatever comes to mind or something that you see come up a lot that we haven't talked about.

When you're practicing all of these strategies, it's normal to not be able to do them immediately, to notice that you're getting distracted a lot. It's just about setting that time to intentionally try it, even if it's really difficult or if you're distracted. It's all about just noticing in that moment that it's difficult and distracting and then going on and trying it again. I always like to say, not practice makes perfect, but like, practice makes good enough.

Makes good enough.

I love it.

Practice makes good enough. Morgan, what an incredible conversation. Thank you so much for sharing your expertise, your brilliance around this incredibly important topic. Where can people find you? Thank you.

So they could find me. My website is drmorganlevy.com so that's Dr. Then my name, morganlevy.com I have a fun little quiz on there. I have a bundle coming up. It will be coming out in April called the Mindful Professional Bundle. And I'm so excited. It's going to have resources to help high achievers, professionals, business owners, learn how to optimize their performance in work and outside of work. Because I believe you could have both parts of your identity in like, feel meaningful and fulfilling without sacrificing the other.

Could not agree more. I'm so glad you shared that. Check it out, everybody. And that's right on the front page. Yeah.

Oh, yes. Yes. Yep. Yeah. Good.

Get on over there. If any of this is resonating with you and you want to step into this more. Morgan has got you. Thanks for being here.

Thank you. Thank you. I had so much fun. Hey.

Hey. What an incredible conversation with Dr. Morgan Levy, the executive strategist for high achieving professionals. That as you can see, there are a lot of things in this conversation that I could relate to. And if there are things that you could relate to, too, I am so glad that you are here and a part of this conversation and on this journey with us today, remember everything you are stepping into, every nudge, every thing like, oh, I got to do something with that. I need to think about that. I want to try that. Listen in. You are so very right on time with that. I will see you next time. It's been great hanging out with you. I hope you have a wonderful week. Keep on keeping on.