The Power of People Operations, Delegation, and Avoiding Burnout

If a business is like, I feel like we have so much potential, but we're not optimizing it. Like, the CEO is working 80 hours a week, but the team doesn't know what they should be doing, or there's friction or there's lots of turnover because the CEO hasn't really had time to sit down and be like, let's talk about every single one of your jobs and how they interact with each other and who you report to and how you report to them and you know, little things like that. There's so much opportunity to just kind of get away from the gray area and make it as black and white as possible. So then our people can really lean in to what they enjoy doing every day and what they're great at doing every day. So then the stuff that we have to do that we don't really love doing is just a little part of it instead of the whole thing. And it creates a lot more of an environment of growth and buy in and retention. So then your team is actually growing alongside your business and you're able to make an impact not only just for your clients, but also for the people that you manage.

Hey. Hey. We are back with a special conversation station today with kira from the paradigm.com and this is such a beautiful conversation. I found myself as we went like, yeah, I've been in situations like that when I am have been in work environments that were not totally aligned or I was in a different season of life. And if you are thinking about building a team, if you are on a team that needs some help or if you have a team that you are leading. Kira has some incredible thoughts for us. She's got a decade of experience in people operations in the corporate world and she is no stranger to the sensitive issues involved in the human side of running a business. We are unique as humans, so stuff comes up and yes, there's a lot to learn from hiring, onboarding, training and managing the performance of over 500 employees for a multimillion dollar business. She founded Paradigm to bridge the gap between corporate HR policies and the modern needs of online entrepreneurs. Because Google might have almost all the answers, but it doesn't have what your unique business and your unique team needs. In this conversation we're talking about values and how to pull values through into action and bring them to life in your business. So we're talking about working virtually with a team and what you might need to do before you hire a team or check yourself if you've already got a team and you haven't done these things or if you're seeing some breakdowns, this is going to be good. And I cannot wait to hear what nuggets you pull out in this episode and what you apply in your business and in your team. We're going to dig in, going to let Kira kick it off by sharing a little bit more about her background and how she got to where she is today. Kira, welcome to this episode. Thank you for being here.

Oh my gosh, I'm so excited.

Me too. I love what you are up to. Can you share for everyone who's listening what you are all about and what you do?

Yeah, well, in the short version is that maybe five or so years ago I was actually after working in small business for almost 10 years and managing a team of 50 and never delegating a thing in my life and taking everything on my plate, I got to the point of such a bad emotional mental breakdown that I ended up being diagnosed with PTSD afterwards. So in long story short, I am super passionate about helping people, especially women, realize how many opportunities there are out there to get support and how much your bandwidth and your reach and your impact can expand when you approach life in a way that is open to delegation and teamwork and kind of meeting people halfway and the openness and the vulnerability that comes with that. And all of that has kind of manifested in translating my business experience in small business and an online business over to HR consulting. We call it people operations. Put it into ChatGPT the other day just to see like what does ChatGPT think the difference between HR and people operations is? And it was kind of what we think, which is it's a holistic viewpoint. So when you're running your business, when you're thinking about it through people operations lens, you're thinking about it from the operation side versus just I'm trying not to get sued side. So yeah, and it kind of opened up a lot of doors to work with lots of different entrepreneurs and people and to talk about this message because truthfully, like, I don't know, I don't know if you've have, if you have experience with this, I'd love to hear what your thoughts are on it. But if I have a male client and I tell them, yeah, we need to hire somebody to take this on, this is not your responsibility. They are like, okay, but if I have a female client, they're like, no, it's okay. I can fit a 20, 20 hour a week job in my day. No big deal. So.

I have even touched myself sometimes, even Though, like, I have an incredible team that I get to work with and still I'm like, oh, I can do that. No, no, Amber, you do like slow down and check with team too. Because sometimes team, like, yeah, throw it on over. So we kind of have to watch for each other. And there's interesting research. Have you ever read the book Business Brilliant?

I haven't. No, I actually haven't. Super great book.

If you are listening and you have not read this book yet, I have absolutely talked about it before, but I highly recommend it. A friend of mine, Lewis Schiff, wrote this book and it's the research really about middle class and self made millionaires and billionaires and different mindsets that we have as we are creating careers and businesses. And it is definitely a diy. It's a middle class mindset that keeps DIY in it too. Like, I've got that. I can do it. I can learn that. Versus self made millionaires and billionaires are much more likely to say, let me bring in the expert.

Oh, I love this. I've been needing something to cite, so I will definitely be looking into that. Most of the books that are recommended to me are like a little bit more old school, like leadership advice from like older dudes that like, don't really get the new way of working, you know. So I love to hear that. There's different ways to think about it that are a little bit more clinical. But also I can't wait. What'd you say it's called Business Brilliant by Louis Schiff.

You got it? Yeah.

Okay, cool. Writing it down.

So good. I can't wait to hear what you think of it. Yeah, so good. It really, I read it years ago and it shifted my perspective a lot on how we show up and how we serve and how we build businesses. Now I'm curious, your business, the small business that you mentioned, what was that?

So I work, I still work there now, technically I'm the coo, but I only show up once a week and manage my team of managers and directors. But we are a private indoor swim school focused on infants and toddlers for drowning prevention. And here in San Diego, it's a really competitive industry. There's like 30 swim schools just in our county alone. But there's that like tens of thousands all over the country. And so it's just been. It was such a funny thing to like fall into after my corporate career, but it was. I mean, I always think that we don't. Especially if you're a small business owner or you have a Smaller team or whatever, you kind of have to know a little bit about everything. Whereas when I was in corporate, I was siloed and so I knew a lot about one thing. So I think that's what kind of kept. I mean, I like to joke that I just didn't want to be in a cubicle. So I would have done any. I would have taken a, you know, 80% pay cut and done anything to stay out of the cubicle. But it ended up being the greatest experience because I could decide, oh, I want to know more about this or I want to learn more about that. And if you have an empowering boss, then, you know, it kind of takes you through that whole journey and you can learn as much as you want about anything.

It's so true. I'm curious about how you fell into this.

So I, we talked about this a little bit offline, but I went to school in Santa Barbara, I played water polo there. But I started competitive swimming when I was five. So I've always just loved being in the water, love being near the water. And when I was trying to escape my corporate job, I had convinced a few of my friends to basically quit in six months or something like that and travel through Europe. But I literally couldn't stand to be at this corporate job anymore. So I just looked up part time jobs that I could do so that like, my soul wouldn't die. In the meantime, while we were saving money, money, like on the side after going to this like terrible soul sucking job all day. And there was a swim school like two miles away and they were just looking for instructors and they were able to like, give me a few classes here and there. And essentially once I, I spent the summer there, I got to quit my other job a little bit early, hang out, like, have adult summer break when I was like in my mid-20s and we traveled. When I came back, they were like, yeah, we still need you while you're getting back on your feet. I mean, I came back from backpacking through Europe after three months with literally $12. And that's only because my mom forced me to, like, because I wanted to do it all on my own. Back then I was like, I'm not taking any money from my parents. And but my mom was like, you can't fly across the country with, you know, negative $30 in your bank account, so I'm giving you $100. And I was like, oh my God. So when I came back, I was so broke, I was like, fine, I'll work here for a while. While I look for a new job, probably in sales, you know, that kind of a thing. And it ended up like I had a fork in the road. I had to decide at some point, do I want to keep going with this small business where I get to make such an impact? And they were offering me managerial roles and lots of different opportunities versus making three times as much money jumping back into corporate. And I just remember it being such a big decision. It was so long ago now, over 10 years, but I was like, it's just such a big decision to make. And for my young brain that came back from traveling that had no money, I'm so glad that I went the harder route because I would have bought that company that I originally had gotten the other offer for, had like since gone out of business. It was a startup, it was an app. It probably would have meant more corporate trauma, like the whole thing. So I'm just so happy that I took the harder, more poor route for a while. All the things I've learned.

So I love your journey and your story. Okay, I'm going to ask one more question about your past before we re enter the present day. And what were you doing in corporate?

I was working for a for profit university, like a University of Phoenix type thing. Okay. And I was, it was like left college. Somebody was like, oh, they hire everyone here, just work here with us. And it ended up being, we called it, like, I'm not gonna say the name of the company, but it was like a club. Like literally like I made so many friends still to this day. I met my husband the very first day of my training. Didn't know he was gonna be my husband at the time. Like we weren't, we didn't like immediately start dating or anything. I was like very committed to being single. I just graduated college, but it was so high pressure, so toxic. So like we had directors that would just like slam their laptops on people's hands if they were taking notes too loud in meetings. Like, it was just like the quintessential like horrible place where as a 23 year old super high performer, I was crying on my way home from work every night while like 45 year old men were getting praised and they were producing like a fourth of what I was producing in front of people. And so it was just such a. It was about three and a half, four years and I had switched departments at a certain point where I went into more retention and training and helping the sales team learn how to retain their people and train the managers. And so that Kind of lent itself to me getting my master's in organizational management. And I love to say that it was just like a. This is not how it should be. So how should it be? At the same time that I was working at this company, and of course, the reason you stay in those companies is because they were paying for my degree, that I was in a good position, I was young and it was fun and I had all these friends around, but then I was being tortured with my actual job every day. So it's really crazy to have this reaction of I'm gonna go make 12 or $13 an hour and teach swim lessons every day and that'll be better even if I can't eat. Like, that will be better than all of this. So I feel like that's. I really dragged that energy through my career, just like trying not to have to recreate that stuff. And it's really hard to do, especially when you're in small business balancing so many different things going on. But, you know, like I said, long story long, I feel like I took so much from that experience and just, I know that work can be fun and you can enjoy it and you can, you can love the people that you work with. You can be friends with the people that work for you. Like, you can have all those things. It doesn't have to be like this weird thing that, like, is like, don't get too close to people. Like, that's not what life's about. I don't know. So we're trying to challenge it a little bit. And I think if you're smart and you're intuitive and you pay attention to yourself and you develop yourself, like, you can have whatever relationships you want with your team and it's not going to be a toxic environment. So that's how I'm here.

Could not agree more. I am so loving your journey. I'm loving that you took that intentional break knowing, like, all right, I'm not going to make what I was making, but I'm going to get to the right place. I'm going to just take a beat in here because I feel like in this moment in time that we are in, we're all like, we all move at a very fast pace. Everything is moving at a rapid fire pace. And there is a lot that is lost because we don't have the space and the time to process, process, think, be still to make big decisions like this. So I just love that you took the time to do that and it turned into something so incredible. So the, the companies and the projects that you work on now, what do they look like in the people operations space? Because this is, this you mentioned and ChatGPT confirmed, like, this is a little bit more nuanced.

Right.

As we think about hr, talent management or these other terms that are used to describe the people, people in how we work with people in organizations. So can you give us some tangible examples of like, all right, this is what we're talking about.

Yeah. I mean, that's the unique thing about it is that we've been able to dabble in all sorts of different businesses. So whether it's a business hiring an employee for the first time and trying to navigate the contractor versus employee rules and laws, and maybe they've gotten in trouble and they're going back and trying to restart, or bigger businesses that have hired employees but then have not really structured things in a way that everybody is giving their most, the most or the best that they can because they're not clear on what their responsibilities are. It's, there's a place for our services kind of in all of those places. It just kind of depends on what the business needs and usually they don't know. So if a business is like, I feel like we have so much potential, but we're not optimizing it. Like the CEOs working 80 hours a week, but the team doesn't know what they should be doing, or the team is everybody's, there's friction or there's lots of turnover because the CEO hasn't really had time to sit down and be like, let's talk about every single one of your jobs and how they interact with each other and who you report to and how you report to them, and little things like that. There's so much opportunity to just kind of get away from the gray area and make it as black and white as possible so that our people can really lean in to what they enjoy doing every day and what they're great at doing every day. So then the stuff that we have to do that we don't really love doing is just a little part of it instead of the whole thing. And it creates a lot more of an environment of growth and buy in and retention. So then your team is actually growing alongside your business and you're able to make an impact not only just for your clients, but also for the people that you manage. Because providing a place that's safe and that's where the HR piece comes in. Because our special sauce is the compliance. We'll build your company policies, make sure they're informed by your culture that you want to have people think you just download an employee handbook and then you talk about your company culture and meetings, but they are one in the same. So the things that you are holding your people accountable to are the things that build your culture. So I think that's where every business can really benefit from that clarity and that distinction and that kind of like taking a step back and looking at it from a high level perspective in order for their people to understand the little things that they should be doing every day. But if you're constantly just worrying about replacing people, you're never actually building a culture because culture is built by people, not by pieces of paper and what you're selling or whatever your footprint is in the world or whatever the case may be. And so we really want to look at it from a perspective of what's optimized for the company, but also what's going to keep the people engaged. And sometimes that means those people aren't going to be the right fit. But shying away from those discussions is what creates toxic work cultures and that sort of undermines everything that you've put into your business in the first place.

So this is so good. And I, I mentioned before we kicked off the recording, we didn't talk too much before it was getting good. I'm like, we got to hit record. This frequently happens. And like, whoa, stop it all. And I, I was mentioning that like the, the things that you are talking about, I am so on board with. And I think that one of the challenges is that when we're in small business, we might think, oh, it doesn't apply to me or oh, I can wait on this, or but by waiting on thinking about, okay, what are everyone's roles and responsibilities, including mine as yours as a business owner and write your team or your OBM or you know, even va like, what are we all doing? And if you take a beat and really say, all right, this is what we're all responsible for, okay, here are KPIs and here's how we work together. And here's where things interact. And we recommend something called a project charter before each new project and at the beginning of working relationships, sit down and define project Charter. How we work together, meaning how do you like to communicate? Where are we going to update on to do's? What if, what if things go wrong? Like, what do we do then? So what are we responsible before? But also how do we do the work? Because it makes everything so much easier. So as you think about like small Business. And I want to sort of break this down because there are big business concepts, but we want to pull from them and use them in small business too. And I'm. So I just caught the eye of your pup back there again. He went back to his position.

He's always involved somehow. Oh my gosh.

So cute. So as a small business, let's take a small business that is business owner and one team member. How do you apply these principles when it's just like me and my, my, my right hand, my, my best connection on the team?

Yeah, I mean, it's funny that you ask that because I actually think that it's way more important to define these relationships when it is a smaller team than even when there is a bunch of people involved. And that's because you are everything and you're everything to the team, which means that you can accidentally silo yourself into a situation that's super uncomfortable for your team member. And that's going to in turn be a really huge problem for your business. Because if you've got two people working in your business and you're acting as a true CEO, they're probably doing most of the work and the delivery for what is actually making money for your business. And if you're creating an environment where they either don't know what's expected or you're accidentally. We call it toxic flexibility. And we get this a lot from modern CEOs that are trying to figure out what it means to have a team in this day and age. And after there's been, you know, I think Covid sped us up by a decade in regards to remote work. And so we're all trying to figure it out. There's nothing to be ashamed of. But we think for some reason we're supposed to know how to be a leader and a manager just because we hired somebody. But we call it toxic flexibility because the CEOs are like, this is what I would want. I want to have, you know, completely flex schedules or Fridays off or, you know, client meetings only in the mornings or, you know, whatever the case may be. And sometimes that, that thing that we think, we think is flexibility doesn't really work for a team member because they don't really understand when they should be showing up, when they should be carving out the time. A really good example is we had a client that was, had a part time employee and they were like, yeah, you can work whenever you want. But this employee was, they were the one that scheduled the call with us. They were like, yeah, I really love my job, but I'm never off because my boss will contact me or text me at any time. And the boss on their side is like, you can work whenever you want, you have to answer when I call. And so it creates a little bit of a toxic relationship because the only way out of it is for that person to go to hr, but they're the only employee, so who are they going to go to? And then it's awkward because they're like, hey, friend's friend who I heard about on Instagram, can you pitch my boss? Because I don't want them to know, you know. And then we get a lot of inquiries and you know, different meetings with different CEOs and you know that they have the best of intentions. Like this CEO wants her person to feel like I can be an adult and make my own schedule. But it creates a situation where neither of them know what's really expected of them. And so then when you really get down to it, the CEO's frustrated too, because they're like, well, I am entitled to all of your time because I'm entitled to none of your time. And so it just kind of creates this bad circle that we don't realize. At the end of the day, the CEOs like, I just want this to work for you. I know, I trust you. That's what they think that they're doing. But meanwhile, the employee has their phone always on. They're never actually able to walk away from it. They don't want to disappoint their boss, they want to move up in the company, they want to be promoted, they want to have full time hours, they want to get a raise. So they're trying to constantly show that they're going over and above, but there's no boundaries. And it just creates such an awkward situation. And the thing is, for us, we can't just CEOs, meaning like the people in charge, we can't just quit our company, but our people can quit. And sometimes they're going to find a way to leave instead of having those hard conversations. So we really think that even if you, if you have a team of two or three, or you have a couple contractors, a couple employees, there really should be solid expectations laid out there. Even if it's just a couple little guidelines and a way for your team to seek support instead of quitting. Because there's a thousand different jobs out there calling their name every single day. So we want to make sure that we're the person that they not only want to work for, but Also the company with the values that they can stand behind and they feel like they're making an impact every day. And we do that through our cultures.

This is so good. And I think it's such a great example. I mean, there's been a lot of conversation in the last, I don't know, five or so years even in small business about values. Right. And pull your values through and, and Delivering happiness was one of the first books I read about values and bringing values to life. And I think you are bringing to light such a great example here of, okay, we've got a, we've got a core value of flexibility maybe, but we got to define it. What does that look like? Because I just, I've been in that place that the team member who reached out to you, can you pitch so and so please? And I've been there and it's like you're always on and as soon as you get the text message, it's like, okay, alert. Because I value flexibility. So I, I want to be flexible when they message okay. But the adrenaline immediately for me would kick in. I'm like this, oh my gosh, I cannot live like that. And I have to put my phone on dnd otherwise, even when my team reaches out because there's. Most of my team is still awake and working when I am winding down for the day. Okay, dnd because I'll pop right back up myself. And of course it's normal business hours for everyone else. So I don't want to say like, no more, no more, no more work.

Yeah, that's such a good point. It's more important for us sometimes to just, just not only to set an example of like what we're comfortable with and what we are going to, how we are going to show up for our team because otherwise there's, it's already hard to turn it off. When you're a manager or you're, you own the company or anything like that, you're always, you know, your mind's always working, you're always thinking of ideas. Like, you never know when it's going to be Saturday at 11am and you finally think of the name of your course or whatever, you know, So I feel like there's, it's really important for us, us to as leaders, to preserve our energy and our energetic space that where and where and how we show up. Otherwise we're going to be halfway all the time. And I mean, one of my employees who is like my right hand at Paradigm, my company, she, we, I don't text her at all, ever. We always are on Slack. It's a rule that I made right when I started my business. We. If it's about business, we're talking on Slack. Unless it's an emergency, in which case I get a text, what, twice in the year and a half she's worked for me, or it's like something funny and social and it's a meme or something like that. But even then I'm trying not to text her because I don't want her to have that cortisol spike of why is my boss texting me? What did I forget? That kind of a thing. We have to be really picky and choosy about an understanding of the impact that we have on the people that work for us. And I think that sometimes we forget they're reliant on us for their living, they're reliant on us for their. For money, for the way that they interact with the world. And it may not feel like that every day when you're just reassigning tasks to them or, you know, popping into Slack or, you know, shooting them a quick message or asking them to go over and above for a client or something like that. We may just think like, oh, it's no big deal, it's just work. But really, like, that's their livelihood. And the impact we have can either be net positive or it can be net negative. And if it goes in the negative, you can bet that they're going to be looking for a way out because they're not going to have that conversation with you. It's not their job. It's not their job to show up as a leader and be like you, listen, you need to lead better, you know, so we got to take it on ourselves.

So good. You also mentioned the virtual elements of this and yeah, the. The 2020 season and beyond totally raced this in for so many organizations, but a lot of people in small business and especially in the online world, we're already working right remote and maybe doing it well and maybe not. And I think we've all got an opportunity to learn. All right, how do we connect? So what recommendations and strategies do you have? I mean, you already said one like Slack, like, define where you're communicating and how you're communicating. I love that. Keep it social in text unless it's an emergency. And if you've got a social relationship or Slack. But what. How do you go about setting up, you know, the virtual work environment?

Well, I think you have to touch on a few different things. There has to be a way to communicate and to offer support. There also has to be a way to actually assign the tasks and assign the work and usually that's not the same place. So if you have a project management system or you assign work via email or whatever the case may be, those should, should feel different. Where, where you're communicating shouldn't just be like a, you know, place where people are going to go to find their tasks. It should be a place where they could go to find support and leadership and communicate with each other and build relationships. So even for us with our clients, all of our deliverables are totally separate from the way that we communicate with them because we want them to feel like it's an open conversation and there's updates of about their project. But there's also like, hey, have you seen anything lately that has drawn your attention to it? Or is there anything that you're worried about? Or before we log off for the weekend, we usually do this on Thursdays. Let us know if there's anything that's weighing on you or that you're waiting for that we can clarify those types of things. When you're kind of business to business or business to client, you want to have those types of conversations too, but especially when it comes to your team. And I think the other thing is an actual time to sit down and meet face to face, either with each individual person or with the team as a whole, or both, depending on how big your team is for. I always joke because there's so much literature out there. Even in my course, there's a whole chapter on how to have a good meeting and how to get the most out of people and how to make sure that you're showing up in support for them. But our team meetings are truthfully just, just kind of hanging out like, hey, what's going on with the clients? Hey, did you see this happen? Like, did you guys watch the most recent episode of Love is Blind? You know, it's very like, like an hour of blocked off time. There's kids running in and out. Like it's very much a cultural team building environment. It's not that productive, you know, like if there are questions and things like that, we put together a plan to get them solved or answered or I'll pop them back up to my to do list or whatever. And there's space for that, of course. But really like our team meetings are more about the connection and the connectivity with each other versus like what are the tasks that we have to do. And you know, I There's some people that like to kick it off with, like. Like, their win for the week or whatever. Like, our team has never. Like, it kind of just feels like a chore. Like, we're like, well, I don't know. Like, there's a bunch of stuff that's going on. Like, we just kind of. I want there to feel, like, an easy chemistry and a vulnerability and, you know, like, talking about what's been going on. If you've been going to therapy, if you've learned anything recently, like, if there's a system that isn't working that well. Like, I just. Yeah, we have an AI system. It takes down notes, and it gives us action items. They are the funniest notes ever. Like, we. I joke about them every single time. There's never anything productive in them. And I think that in corporate or even the stuff that we hear out there, it's like, oh, well, we. Nobody wants to go to a meeting that doesn't have a point. And I'm like, well, the biggest point is to make sure that you're building your culture. So some people might think this is really bad advice. This may not work for every business, but it can. Your business can be a place that you show up and you show up in person. And when you are spending the time doing that, it's literally to build these relationships with people. It doesn't always have to be about productivity. I think we missed that in the virtual space somewhere. Like, there was never. I worked remotely about half the time prior to Covid, but when I was working remotely, it was because I needed to focus, and I wasn't. That was what my time away from the office was. When I was in the office, it was about connecting with the staff and connecting with the people. So in a virtual space, you're always in focus mode unless you're connecting with your people. So it always just kind of felt. Felt a little off to me that we were having meetings that were so focused on productivity, and sometimes that was the only time we were all in the same virtual room together. So I just kind of threw it out the window. I'm like, secretly, like, writing this. Like, you know, here's how to have a really productive meeting for, like, all of our mentees and all of our students. And then on the other side, I'm like, what's up, guys? And we're just gonna chat for an hour, you know, and it's like, not a thing. We also don't work. I. We don't work Monday mornings. So this is an Exception because it's a Monday morning right now and we don't work Friday afternoons. And what I've noticed is by not having client meetings at all on Fridays and holding that boundary for the entire team, it gives them space to. If we have true flexibility, they actually do have a little bit of a rollover time. So we front load our weeks. So then the end of the week, it feels like things peter off. And so it really has helped prevent burnout, especially when we're really busy or we have a bunch of new clients coming in or, you know, hr. The HR side of things isn't always that fun. And so having our consultants have to have these tough conversations with people or be in on it when somebody is getting fired and, you know, all of that good stuff, nobody wants to do that on a Friday. So we generally have kind of set up these boundaries that I thought would be really productive and helpful for our mental health. And if they want to go out of the way, they're not getting extra praise for it. Like, I'm not going to be like, wow, great job, Kylie, for having a meeting on a Friday. Like, if you want to do that, fine, but I'm not going to be like, awesome job. Like, if anything, I'm going to be like, try to fit that in on Thursday. Like, let's work on the time management. Because we really do have to make sure that we're leading by example and holding people accountable. Not to overworking and overstressing and overdoing it, but to our culture and the standards that we've. That's what we should be praising people for. Not just that they've worked for 80 hours. Like, screw that. Like, we're not doing that here.

So again, you bring it back to the values, right? If we say we value that, okay, winding down on a Friday so you have space before you roll into the weekend, which I hugely value. Are you honoring and inviting and encouraging that, or are you encouraging a different behavior? And an example came to mind that someone recently shared with me. Their company was consistently sharing and saying, you know, quality over quantity, quality. You know, it's not about how long you're working. It's not about the hours. But any time someone worked long hours, they would celebrate it. They're like, so and so was up till 2am when they sent us their email. Like, oh, my gosh. So it's such a contrast. And, you know, I was one in corporate. I was one of those people who was up so late, like, I can do it. I can fit it in it was fun. I had the energy apparently at the time. I don't know where it came from.

But that's the thing, like to your point, like, that's exactly the reason that we have to set a new standard because it's not sustainable. Like, yeah, when you're in your 20s and your job is to work really hard and figure out what your career path is, like, that's kind of your purpose. Like, what are my next steps? What am I growing towards? What am I developing towards? But then you get into your 30s or you decide to have kids or you have a family or you have other businesses or other, other hobbies that you're pursuing. It really is not helpful for a business or for an individual to praise that being our only thing. Like it's totally. If, if that is what's fulfilling an employee to work at random hours or, you know, whatever the case may be, as long as they're hitting their deadlines, that's totally fine. But that's not going to be more valuable than the person that's fitting it into the time when we're all online or, you know, whatever the case may be. Like, I don't know, I just, it's really hard to, especially as a woman and you're thinking about how if, you know, we're thinking about having kids and getting into that place. Like, I would have really appreciated like anyone modeling this behavior when I was growing up, but I was modeled behavior of 24 hour work cycle, bothered at any moment, even when you're on vacation. That's the way you get ahead. That's the way you support yourself. That's the way you support your family. And it's been a tough journey to unlearn that. I mean, there's been a lot of therapy involved.

Yeah, I so get it. And I think a couple of things have happened recently. Number one, sort of going back to the 2020 season, that extended for quite a while. Then we came out of that and we get back to normal and we're in this season of normal. And I'm really observing a lot of people and specific generations saying, wait, we don't want normal. We don't want it to be like that. That was our normal. Like, we've really got to start to change it up. And I'm seeing more and more companies at a large scale level also recognize and say wait. We put such an emphasis on engagement and productivity. Right. For the sake of work. But what about the person? Are they thriving? Are they doing well? And we, you know, for years there were wellness initiatives. But it was all in the sake of saving money and it was in the sake of productivity.

Right.

But I think this is shifting now and I think upcoming generations and people overall, after what we went through, are saying, I'm not doing that anymore. Like, I'm seeing people in their 20s who are saying, you know, that's all well and good, like, okay, that you did that. Like they could do that. But I'm gonna choose to have a little bit more. I don't know if it's balance or I'm gonna choose to have a little bit more separation. I'm really gonna honor some of that downtime, which I think is ultimately gonna benefit all of us.

Yeah, I could not agree more. I mean, there's definitely something when I think about, I think people have asked me before too, like, you have a full time job, like, why is this business so important to you? Like, in my full time job, I don't want to glorify it and act like I'm working 40 hours a week and doing this. Like I am there one day a week. I built these foundations. I have a relationship with my boss. It's more of a partnership. I'm not going to say, oh, I look at all these amazing things. It's like, no, I'm there literally on Wednesdays, all day. You won't catch me on slack with my business, but I'll be there in person. I'm developing my managers, I'm developing my team, spending time with them. We have lunch, you know, I'll eat really bad food, the whole thing. But there is something that when people ask me like, well, when it's hard for your business, why, why keep going? Like when you have tough clients, when you make a tough sales month, you know, I'm paying multiple people's salaries, like, that's a lot of pressure. And it's like, because I'm so fulfilled by it. And I think that if we're able to find people that are fulfilled by their work and the conversations that they're having, not only is it more energizing for them, but it doesn't feel like they're working when they are being productive. They just feel like they're contributing to their own growth. And that's why finding aligned talent and being so upfront about your values and your mission is so important. Because then it doesn't always feel like what we've been taught work should feel like. So I'm really lucky in that I learned this lesson about five or six years ago the hard way. And now my goal is just to make sure that. But work is fun, and I enjoy my people and I enjoy my time, and I take radical accountability for the environment that I'm showing up in, not only in person, but also virtually, and creating that same space and having tough conversations, vulnerable conversations, like sticking your neck out a little bit sometimes to make sure that even if you. And, you know, we all have that feeling where we're like, am I doing a bad job at this? Like, the last thing I want to hear is that I'm a bad boss. That's all the last thing anybody wants to hear. But. But if something's off, like, approach it right away, apologize. If you put your foot in your mouth, do what you have to do in order to make sure that you're taking that radical accountability and opening up a space of vulnerability for your team, no matter how big it is. There's no space for ego when it comes to managing a virtual team. I think it's because there is so much space for ego, we can't allow even a little bit of it to slip in because it will literally poison everything. It's the same thing as, like, when you get somebody on your team that, you know, maybe interviewed really well and said all the right things and did all the right things, but you can tell, like, really quickly, like, oh, this just isn't a good fit. They're probably not a toxic person. It's just not the right fit. But keeping them there and not taking action and not being, you know, stepping into real leadership and taking ownership of the environment in which the whole team works in is going to cause a huge issue for your team in the long run. And I think that that's where the HR part kicks in, because people don't know what they can say, what they're allowed to say, you know, all of that good stuff. So there's a real crossover between the confidence that comes from understanding your legal and ethical obligations as a leader, but also being okay with being like, I think I might have screwed this up a little bit, or I think I might have made a bad choice, or I might have made a choice in haste or out of desperation. How can I fix it? Instead of just like, oh, let's just see how it, you know, blows up behind the scenes. That's just going to drag the rest of your team down with it. So that's really hard online, it's really hard virtually. But, I mean, that's what we're trying to build, like, a more open environment where people can understand you're not supposed to be good at all this leadership stuff out the gate. You're going to make mistakes even when you're great at it, so it's okay. Just, like, making sure we have a community that we can lean on is also really important, too.

Oh, my gosh, this is so good. I want to go back to something you said a bit ago, which was, you have an AI taking note.

Notes. Oh, yeah.

What is the AI that you've got taking notes? I know people will be curious about this.

So it's called Otter AI, and I've had a few clients that have, like, hopped on Zoom calls, or I'd be on a sales call or something, and I'm like, there's this, like, random note taker there or whatever. But it's so fun. There's, like, when I tell you nothing productive happens in our team meetings, like, I. I don't like, to me, it doesn't feel productive, but I'm sure to the team it does because they're getting their questions answered and stuff. But it gives you, like, a bullet point if they're just kind of like another in the Zoom room, basically. And it gives you a bullet point summary and then like, a list of action items that's emailed to every participant in the meeting at the end. And it's just ridiculous every time. Like, I mean, it is like, if. If any of your audience actually, like, and your listeners actually use it, like, please screenshot it and send it to me on Instagram, because it's so funny. Like, you just don't realize the tangents that you go on. And then, of course, in between, there are questions like, oh, hey, how did you want me to handle this? Or, hey, how did you want me to. To deal with this problem? Or I think this automation might be off. Or, you know, like, all that kind of just gets, like, woven in. And then it's like, you know, we get a couple things we have to do at the end that are problems we have to solve that I don't think come up in the normal, like, meeting agenda, you know, but it's just so funny. It's called Otter AI. I think it's like 100 bucks a year. Totally worth it, even just for the comedy.

So. Good for the comedy. Oh, my gosh, Kira, this was amazing. Before we wrap, any final words of wisdom or things for people to consider as they're working with teams, working virtually, building teams, all the good stuff.

Oh, gosh. I think one of the things that I feel like is just on Repeat all the time, is that we don't have to recreate what we think it's supposed to be like at work or what we think it's supposed to be like. As a leader, that's a big one. Like, you can have your work and your job and your company feel however you want it to feel. Even if you're just a middle manager. Like you might be. Not. Not just because that's truly the hardest job in the world, but if you're a manager, then you don't own the business. Maybe you're not in charge of the culture. Your team can have its own culture, too. So being able to show up in a way that is really clear and straightforward and that you are asking for clarity and expectations to the best that you can and providing that to others. I mean, even in my personal life, it comes into play just making that there's clarity across the board. And also if you have to ask for help about management or leadership, that's not a place of shame, that's a place of strength. I think that that's one thing, especially with women. It's like, well, everyone likes. Like, don't confuse likability with leadership. And I think that you can be well loved and well liked, but still want to make sure that you're honing in on those leadership skills, especially when it comes to management. Because it. To a lot of people, it feels like a dirty word, but. But it's truly what our. I hear this the most from any team members. I love my boss, but they don't know what they're doing. And I wish they did because they have so much potential. And it's like, you know, they really. They want to be led. They want to be shown the path. Like, they want the clarity. And don't be afraid to ask for it. It's not a place of shame. It's a great place of vulnerability and strength. Oh, God, this has been so fun, Amber.

I agree. Where can people find you after this, this episode?

Well, Instagram is where I generally hang out the most and that my company is called the Paradigm. So it's got two M's at the end and we have all these cool freebies and resources and stuff on our website, which is the hyphen paradigm.com and then I'm trying to be more active on LinkedIn. So if anybody's on LinkedIn, make sure you friend me. Let me know that you listen to the episodes. What encourages me to keep showing up there? But I just get so many bots on LinkedIn. I feel like they're always trying to sell me stuff. They're like, I saw your website, and it's really bad. And I'm like, first of all, how dare you? It's literally stunning. Get out of here.

It's stunning. Go check it out, everybody. Did you even look?

How dare you, like, random dude from, like, England or whatever? I don't know. They're always some weird bot, and I'm like, are you real? Anyway, yeah, that's my rant.

Oh, my gosh. I love it. LinkedIn, Instagram, and the website for all the cool freebies. And just check it out, because it's beautiful. Oh, I cannot wait. If you are listening to this episode, you got a nugget. Tag us in. Leave a review. We can't wait to hear from you on Instagram or wherever you are hanging out. Love up your team. Stay vulnerable. It comes from a place of strength. Wise words. Thanks for being here.

Thank you.