Dr. Michael Gerharz on Stepping Off the Hero's Pedestal to Lead with Resonance

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Simplicity is much more like the entrance to complexity. You need to find simple words to make sense of the complexity. First of all, for ourselves, but then again, you need simple words, like in the case of your students, to spark their curiosity for it, to give them something that they can understand so that they utter the magic words, tell me more. I want to learn more about this. This is so fascinating. I want to understand what's underneath. And when we manage that, well, we are right on the way into the rabbit hole. And that's where the place for complexity is.

Step into the world of success with your brand amplified. The ultimate podcast designed to unravel the intricacies of thriving businesses. I'm your host, Anika Jackson, and I'm on a mission to uncover the stories, strategies, and secrets that have propelled entrepreneurs and business leaders to success. Welcome back to Your Brand Amplified. Here's a hard truth for every founder listening. You can build a brilliant brand, but if your message doesn't land in the moments that matter, the investor pitch, the launch, the keynote, that brand never reaches the audience it deserves. My guest today has spent his career solving exactly that problem. Dr. Michael Gerhartz helps senior leaders communicate in the moments that define how people remember them, the ones where you lie awake the night before running through what you're going to say. He's the author of The Path to Strategic Impact, endorsed by Seth Godin and read in over 30 countries, and The Aha Effect, He hosts the Irresistible Communication Podcast, which I love the short form, very quick, 2 to 3 minutes, now past 300 episodes, and runs the Clarity Lab, where C-suite leaders prepare for their highest stakes communication challenges. Here's what I also love. He holds a doctorate in communication networks, grew up with a guitar in his hands, and even co-created a children's book series. His core idea is one that every entrepreneur needs tattooed somewhere.

Yeah.

Don't persuade harder, resonate stronger. Michael, welcome so much to Your Brand Amplified.

Hi, Anika. It's great to be here.

I'm really excited and delighted to have you here. Communication is something that so many people take for granted, but so many people don't get right in those moments that matter. But before we get into this, talk about your background. You were in computer science. So how did you translate and move over to Communication and find your path towards making impact.

Yeah, yeah, not the first thing that you think about when you think of great communicators. So, computer scientists are not usually the usual suspects, like, but yeah, well, I mean, first of all, coincidentally, my area in computer science was communication systems, so I was always kind of attached to communication, but of course that was machine-to-machine back then, but like what brought me To the path, to the point where I'm today is, I would say, pure frustration with all the great ideas that I have seen thrown into a trash bin because no one cared for finding those better words. Sometimes people would just believe that the idea would win on their own. Sometimes they would wear their professional tech jargon, eloquent-sounding language as a badge of honor. but that made it impossible to understand for the layman. And I always thought that's just a waste of time and resources and passion and blood, sweat, and tears. And that's why I went looking for a better way, first for myself, to make better presentations, to write better papers, to just communicate better about my ideas, first for myself, but then People quickly resonated with that. I started a blog. I think it was one of the first German blogs back then on presentation, and that's how the first clients found me.

And it's so fascinating because it truly is, especially back then, very important, but also today we're seeing it even more when people are turning to their computers to write things for them, when people are not able to translate language between the coders and the engineers and developers and the C-suite, and the C-suite needing to get their point across, but There's another part of your story that I mentioned in the intro. You started with a guitar in your hands. You moved into the computer science field, even in communications, machine-to-machine, but you also have a children's book series called The Grumble Troll. So, you advise CEOs and you write for 5-year-olds. I'd love to hear about the connections that you've found between this creative world and this technical world and weaving that into strategic thinking. Whether it's for a 5-year-old or for a CEO?

Great question. And that's not the usual connection that you would draw. So, what I think is interesting here is not so much that you need to find simpler words to communicate to 5-year-olds, but more that you need to find the core of the idea and make that simpler. Because in the professional world, we tend to do the opposite. We overcomplicate things. We even wear it as a badge of honor if our project is more complex than the past or our partner's project. And I love that quote by a famous computer scientist, Dijkstra is his name, who once said that on top of things, complexity sells better because Because that communicates sophistication. But when you communicate to 5-year-olds, they couldn't care less. They immediately dismiss all that. You bore them for 2 pages, game over. On to the next book or on to the next game. They just don't have patience for complexity. And so that's, I think, something that we can learn from communicating for 5-year-olds. What is the simple core of your idea and how do you make that accessible in a way that we immediately not only see it, understand it rationally, but also can feel what that means?

Yeah. I see the same thing with my university students. A lot of them don't have backgrounds in digital media and some of them aren't communicators by nature. They They've been in other fields, but they've decided to go into digital media management and studies and taking big ideas and complex ideas about these topics. I have to simplify them because otherwise they're not going to understand them. They're not going to understand how to express what they're trying to achieve to the next person who could be a client, who could be a potential sponsor or funder for their business. And so there is such this through line between what you just said about Writing these books for 5-year-olds and then how we communicate our messages to the masses.

I think there's— so what strikes me very often is that there's this battle between simplicity and complexity that people like to stack them up against each other, like as if complexity will be the opposite to simplicity. I like to see it completely differently because for me simplicity is much more like the entrance To complexity. You need to find simple words to make sense of the complexity, first of all for ourselves, but then again you need simple words, like in the case of your students, to spark their curiosity for it, to give them something that they can understand so that they utter the magic words, tell me more, I want to learn more about this, this is so fascinating, I want to understand what's underneath. And when we manage that, well, We're right on the way into the rabbit hole. And that's where the place for complexity is. In a lot of professional communication, we treat the mass like, no, no, no, I got to give them the complete picture. But yeah, yeah, do that, but not right at the beginning.

Yeah. And I do think this notion of don't persuade harder, resonate stronger is really interesting. I'd love to push on that a little bit and ask what exactly that means to you. What's the line between the two? And what do we need to be telling people? How do we move through a moment? Maybe you can share an example of a moment where people learn to stop persuading and start resonating and how that changed the trajectory for them.

There is a really fascinating example in my book from Paul O'Neill, which I just love because it's just such a brilliant example for that resonance principle. Paul O'Neill took the helm at Alcoa at a time in the '80s when Alcoa was struggling significantly. And he was giving a press conference and like what almost every other CEO would have done in that situation is like the usual stuff, like cut costs, make like a marketing campaign, like a sales initiative. Like all the usual stuff that you do when things don't go well. And of course, you'd persuade your team to go that route with you. Like you give them all the data, like the business is doing— the market has changed. And you show them the charts that show how bad the situation is. And you even might incentivize them to try harder or to swallow that. Earnings cuttings, stuff like that. But but he did none of that. Like because like what happens when you hear stuff like that? The story someone explain the new direction like that. Of course, like you you you pull back. Like yeah, I mean yeah, these are your reasons, and I know that that this is bad, and and I don't disagree with you. But like that's a management problem that. That's not my fault. And Polanyi really saw that. And he did something truly astonishing. He went into that press conference to announce his new strategy. And the words that he used were something along the lines of, I want to talk to you about worker safety today. My intention is to get to zero incidents. And with that, he meant zero incidents in any of Alcoa's plants. Like in an industry that's known for super high temperatures, heavy machinery, where not one week would go by in any of their plants without an incident. And now this guy tells me that this would solve our business problems? People in the audience were actually fleeing the room to call their clients to sell their stock. That's a verified story that like they thought that this guy is nuts. What's even going on here? So what they didn't see, what O'Neill saw, was that this was like what Charles Duhigg calls a keystone habit in his books. Like that he aligned the business interests with the personal interests of the workers. That like his reasoning was like, if we care for the safety of our workers and they come to work knowing that they'll go back safe home in the evening, well, they'll invest more back to us. But more importantly, when we teach them to pay attention to something that pays towards their personal interest, they might just use the same attention to detail to other areas of the business. And that's exactly what happens. Like the quality improved and within a year, revenue turned around, profits turned around. And after, like, I think the revenue quintupled in the time that O'Neill was at Alcoa. So that's resonance. Like, that's not trying to give my reason, put my reasons upon you, but that's trying to understand, okay, where does what we want and you want align? And how can I speak to that and then find words that actually make sense and feel right to the people that I'm communicating to?

That is so brilliant. How do you think he found that connection point?

Well, I wasn't around at that time. I was a little child at that time when it happened, so I have no firsthand knowledge. But I would assume, judging from the experience with my clients and those of them that managed to achieve similar things, what they usually do is they have conversations with the people that are affected by their decisions. And that's something that often happens. Like, we go to the retreat with the board and we think hard about the new strategy, but also how to communicate the strategy among the team, like behind closed doors. But words that resonate aren't found by thinking harder. They are found by listening better. Like, you listen for the words And of course, first of all, the problems that the people we're communicating with use and have.

Yeah. And this is where it can be really difficult if you have done the listening and you know what you're trying to say, but then getting to actually saying the right words and moving people, doing, making that shift. What do you think is really going on with executives and founders when they can't quite get to that point? When they think they have it, but they don't know how to communicate?

It might be a couple of things, but one of the most common things that's going on is that we still care too much about ourselves and how we come across, which means that we reach for the professional-sounding language, the approved language, the proven way to say it. And if in doubt, like the more vague way to say it so that we can't be nailed into a corner. And that leads to a way of communicating that, first of all, doesn't feel really like us. It's not something that we can fully stand behind, but it also hides the things that we actually want to say behind that professional surface. And one of the most efficient ways, effective ways that I cut through this is when someone comes to me with exactly that problem, which is quite a common one actually. Like, I know exactly what I want to say, but this is so— So the question that I always ask is, so what do you want to say? In that moment, like, this is the safe space in my coaching office or in a Zoom room. It's a safe space. The same when you talk with friends, like, you just say it in plain English using simple words. And more often than not, like, at least 90%, these are the words that end up in the talk. Like, this is how they explain it in a much more simple way by just plainly saying what they mean in using just simple language rather than the professional jargon.

Yeah, and having somebody like you helping guide them gives them permission as well to get rid of the jargon and feeling like they can't be vulnerable and actually resonate.

That's true, yeah. That's an effect that I sometimes see. It feels like the chains are broken. Something is lifted off their shoulder because like it's real. Another effect happens when you detach yourself from your slides. Like the way that PowerPoint is often used has the same effect. Like it forces you to that strict sequence of bullet points often. And like it forces you to use a way of speaking that you never would use in any natural conversation. And just loosen that and just put the most important things on the slide, but then just tell your story the way that you would in a normal conversation. That just feels so different. And that leads them to explain it in a, first of all, much more passionate way, but oftentimes also a much clearer way.

And you have created a framework around helping people get these messages out. And resonate in the correct way. Can you talk a little bit about the framework and what that looks like? Because everybody who's listening has a business, is a founder, is trying to figure out how to communicate effectively.

You mean the PATH framework?

Yes.

Well, that's the core of the book, The Path to Strategic Impact. It has that nice double meaning that, like, a strategy is about the path that we're on. But it also happens to be an acronym that combines those 4 basic communication principles that are not only applicable to strategy, but I'd say in communication in general. Like, if you just check those 4 principles, I think you'll just have much more impact with your communication. And those 4 principles are P stands for plain and simple, the one that we already touched. Like, can you find words that everyone on your team and everyone that you're addressing really can understand and repeat in their own words? Like, plain and simple instead of tech jargon. Then A is actionable. So are these words crafted in a way that I know what to do with it, or are they like just just a fancy vision that that sounds good but no one knows how to act on? T is a transformative. So do I believe that this will actually change things so that I'm motivated to give it my all? And H heartfelt. That's the one that surprises many people. Are these words that that we truly believe in and that align the team's interest with the business's interest so that they believe in the mission just as much as we do.

I love that you gave this great example from the book that clearly outlines each piece of the PATH framework as well. What do you think is the hardest part of the framework for business leaders?

That's an interesting question because the honest answer is it depends. You'd say that it's, or most people think it's plain and simple, to really use simple words to explain complex ideas. But that's not what I see. So sometimes, so more often it's like in a very strategic, in the traditional sense, businesses, it's often the heartfelt part, like that it's very rationally argued, but Really, the team doesn't see. So yeah, but yeah, why should I invest my passion into this? But then again, you have the more idealistic companies, like many fundraising organizations or nonprofits who have no problem with heartfelt messages, but they struggle to break it down into something that really leads to action. So yeah, we believe in the cause. But what do we need to do to make that cause happen? So, for those, the actionable part is the problem.

Yeah. I'm curious a little bit about that moment when the investor is about to pitch, somebody is about to have a keynote, there's a big announcement, as you mentioned, with a company. And that's kind of what you've built the Clarity Lab around, these moments. So, when the leader has to walk in, Right. And when they come to you for that career-defining talk, you talked about asking them, what are you really trying to say? What is the message you really need to get out? Can you talk about one of those sessions, you don't have to share names, of course, where you had somebody come in with one idea of what they were supposed to say, and they left with something completely different?

One thing that recently happened was that someone was a bit insecure that he did not have enough data to support his point. And they were like wondering how to strengthen their case, how to make it like more airtight when that wasn't the issue at all. Like, because like everyone who had just once seen the problem that they were addressing would immediately believe like the anecdotal evidence that they already had and the preliminary data that they had to support What was needed was to really make them feel that they have the exact same problem that this person was talking about. And what they ended up doing was not start the talk with a shocking statistic or a number of charts or tables. They left the beamer off and just told a personal story about how they messed up as a leader. How they thought they were improving the quality by doing all the usual stuff like quality metrics and goals and review meetings. But it turned out, and the moment that we spoke about it, he realized that this was just like persuading the team to push harder when they were already motivated to give it their all. So when he realized that, that The exact thing that he was trying to do to improve the situation in his company was actually making it worse. And speaking about this moment when this struck him, like, I messed up, I failed my team, that was what changed the entire talk. And that was like what eventually led to people coming over to him after his talk at the conference to congratulate him for the best talk of the conference. Like, it was a packed room of 400 people and like people just loved the vulnerability that he showed. But also like it didn't stop there. I mean, that's the important point. Being vulnerable at the start and sharing that personal story allowed him to go into the complexity and explain what he actually did, what the solution actually looked like so that people who found themselves in the same situation pushing their team and making things worse As a consequence, people who found themselves in that situation could apply the same learnings to their teams.

Wow. What a powerful moment that was. Just the way you describe it, I can picture myself being in that room. Dr. Gerhartz, what about yourself? Have you been in these situations where you've had to apply the same framework to yourself in a business situation?

Yeah, sure. Multiple. Very often. Like, one of the most enjoyable memories that I have myself where I applied this, although I didn't call it that way back when I used it, but I think it were the same principles, were when we pitched our first toy license to the market. Like, that where the Grumble Troll is from the children's book series, that's actually a little side project that I run with my wife or ran with my wife where we launched a couple of toy licenses. Like, to our own surprise as much as the industry's surprise, as total outsiders of the industry, suddenly we had like 3, 4 top hits in the German toy market. The first pitch was, like, as I said, as a total outsider, we had no connections whatsoever into the industry. We knew no one. But my wife had this brilliant idea of a toy that then came on the market as the Twansters. They were actually available in the United States too, but I think they're out of market as of today, like some 10 or 11 years ago. So she had this brilliant idea, which she had developed as a sewing pattern for workshops that she did back then. And then we sat in our garden to think about, like, this is actually a great toy. Like, it should be in more children's hands, not just like the children of people who know how to sew this thing. And so we just wrote a mail to one of the large toy manufacturers in Germany. Actually, a very, very well-known brand here. And like, if we had asked any consultant in the industry how to write a pitch, I would bet serious money that they would have told us that this pitch has no chance. Like, that we should go into the details, that we had to elaborate the manufacturing process, that we had to elaborate the market trends at that time, that we had to outline product roadmaps and revenue forecasts. and all that stuff. We did none of that. We just said like, we're a couple from Cologne. Here's our idea. We attached a video. It's a reversible plush that can change its moods. It's what we called it, the Moodies. You want to check it out. But basically that's it. Like, I mean, it was like 3 or 4 sentences more, but not more than that. Like just plain and simple. And so what we did was by that, like the next morning we had a mail like, please send us prototypes. The week after, We were negotiating a licensing deal, and it was one of the big announcements at the Toy Fair in Nuremberg the year after. Like it was really like we were blown away by that by that experience. But I think what happened was that like we detached ourselves totally from the equation. It wasn't at all about us. Like and that that's something that many startups struggle with. They have that desire that people. appreciate their effort, appreciate the brilliance of the idea. We did none of that. Like, we just, we let the final product speak for itself. In the video, you saw the children playing with the toys. And what this did for the manufacturer was that it pulled the future into the present. Like, they saw how this product would work in children's hands. And so, they basically already saw the money because, like, if children love it, they will buy it. And so, that was plain and simple, just a very plain message, heartfelt through the smile of the children in the video. And that's just one of the applications.

That's— I mean, you are the case study, but not only that. It's such a clear illustration because that's such, as you mentioned, an unexpected outcome. Most people, most inventors, designers would not be able to write to a major company and get that kind of response so quickly.

Yeah.

And you said you didn't really have a name for it at the time, but was that part of helping you develop what this looks like, how you use it for the CEO clients?

Yeah, I mean, it was certainly like, So it came through— this is one of the major problems that I help people with. Like, they have these brilliant ideas, often it's like strategies or pitches, and they need people to act on this. And over time, it turned out that it's often the same 4 problems that we need to approach, like make it simpler, make it more actionable, like what are people actually supposed to do after the talk or after they hear the pitch? Like, what are they supposed to tell their colleagues about this in their own words? Like, and do they believe you that this is going to change things? Is it transformative? And like, do they click? Like, is it heartfelt for them and for yourself? And so, and then at some point, like, I don't know when exactly those things strike. So that is one of the mysteries, how these creative Things click. Like, I think I used, like, so one of my signature phrases that I often use is to light the path. Like, that's my ideal for great communication. Like, not like teach or explain, but like light the path. Here's something I see, I help you see it too, and then I trust you to make the decision to walk that path. And at some point, like, that just clicked. Like, wait a second, Like we can use that path for those principles.

Yeah, that's really wonderful. I want to talk a little bit about your podcast because it is unique. Most people don't do a very short-form show like yours where you're talking about perhaps one idea. So I was listening to a little bit of it before we jumped on today. So can you talk to us a little bit about What was the impetus behind starting Irresistible Communication and thinking about, all right, let's make this a 2-minute podcast as your goal?

Well, I mean, you said it right in the question. There are not very many of those. And the opposite way of saying that is that there are very many long-form podcasts. And on any given topic, including communication, including high-stakes communication, leadership communication, public speaking. There's no shortage of podcasts and the world doesn't need another podcast, let alone another long-form podcast. But many of those podcasts, first of all, they take time to consume and to really get the gist of it. And some of those even spend a very long time on things like the intro. Like, one of the jokes that I sometimes make in the podcast is that this podcast is shorter than it takes some other podcasts to even get through the intro. And I thought, like, just, we have enough of that, like, but what we don't have is these, like, short snippets, short ideas that fit in between 2 episodes of other podcasts, like, that fit in between 2 meetings or when you're waiting in a line, like, that you can just quickly... consume, quickly understand, and perhaps immediately put into action, like paying attention to the thing that I've pointed you at. And my hope was that this has a better chance of actually changing the behavior of people, actually leading them to try those things out. Like, it's one insight, one observation, and one invitation to try this out next time.

Yeah. How difficult was it though to get the idea that you want to share, the action that you wanted to share into that's short of a segment? Because that is an art and a craft in itself, the fact that you can.

You mean how I find the ideas for each episode? Is that—

Finding the ideas, but then also making sure that you're staying within that parameter of a quick idea, because every idea, Like you said, we can talk about it further. We can expand upon it. We can do more explaining to help people understand exactly how to use it. But you've made it— it's an art and a science to be able, in 2 minutes, to communicate something that people can understand and take action on.

That's true. Maybe that's— I never really thought about that, but maybe that's where my computer science background comes in. Because that's one of the things that computer science excels in. Finding the prioritizing things, like what is the most important thing, what is the crucial thing that we need to tackle first that determines the runtime of the whole thing or that determines the efficiency of the algorithm. That is one of the things that we excel at. Then perhaps I'm also a pretty impatient person when it comes to getting to the point myself. Like, I just value it With others when they know how to get to the point quickly, that might contribute. And then I love a German or Swiss author, Friedrich Dürrenmatt, who's very much known for his super short and super concise way of writing. And maybe that had an influence in that too. And yeah, you're right. It takes a little practice to arrive there. But then maybe then, yeah, there's also a tool that you can use for that. That's, I think, like, it's a 2-stage process. When I first learned this, it like completely changed the way that I approach communication. Like, first, like a little prelude is that like my understanding of communication, the only strict rule that I really accept is that if people don't get it, if they didn't get it, they didn't get it. End of story. There's no point arguing that you mentioned it on slide 13 or that you meant it slightly differently. They didn't get that. So it's totally on us to explain it in a way that our audience has the chance to understand what we mean. Then if you accept this as the basis of how you approach communication, then there's a really great tool that I like to call the pass-along phrase. That I stole from journalism. The pass-along phrase is the idea that you think about someone in your audience bumping into someone who wasn't there, asking them, so, what was the talk about? Or, what was the podcast episode about? What are they going to reply? And there's no way that they're going to repeat 10 ideas or a verbatim copy of the 30 slides that you used. Like, they're gonna have a very concise answer in their own words. And if your piece was too complex, it might be as devastating as, I have no idea what they were talking about. There was no point. But if, like, if you start your preparation, if you start your communication and your writing from that point where you think, okay, what would I like them to respond? What would be the ideal pass-along phrase that they actually pass along to their colleague? Then you have a very sharp navigation system. Like, it's razor-sharp and allows you to strictly ask, like, does that contribute to getting my audience closer to that pass-along phrase or not? If it doesn't, it's a detour. If it does, like, reinforce it.

Yeah, that's brilliant. I'm going to have to remember that and use it myself. You have been on a lot of podcasts and talking about your ideas and books and how we can use communication to make the right impact. Is there a question that you wish more people asked you?

So the one question that is probably asked too little is, how do I turn the spotlight around from myself and onto the audience? Like, because that's something that has caused, like, so much trouble for so many people. Like, that idea that as a presenter, as a speaker, as a communicator, as a leader, I would be the one standing up there on that hero's pedestal. Every eye is on me, and like, now I have to impress them. Like, now I have to show them that I deserve standing up there, that I deserve their attention. And so that pedestal is a notoriously difficult place to stand on because like it puts that burden on you. But when you think about it, no one shows up because they need a new hero, because everyone in the audience already got one, and it's themselves. Everyone in the audience inevitably will think that they're smarter than you are in one way or the other. So they have no interest in cheering for you. And everything changes the moment that you step off that hero's pedestal. That you turn the spotlight around and onto the audience and help them become better heroes of their life. So you're not so much the hero as their mentor, their guide. You light them the path, a path that makes sense, that they can take from where they stand, and that gets them to where they want to go. And when you show up as that person, Sharing what you see, just being useful to the person that you're communicating with, like that burden is completely removed. Like suddenly they are on your side because you show up to help them. Like, and that's something that would improve so many, so many talks and so many, so many meetings.

Yeah, that's something that a lot of people have trouble With when they, they know they want to share their message, but they don't want it to be about them. But you're basically saying it's not really about you. It's about how are you improving the person who's listening? How are you sharing something that they would use, you know, find useful, find helpful in their own life? Yeah. And that to me is one of the big cruxes of communication. So, and I, I don't ask that question, but I'm really happy that I asked that question to you today. So, for those who are listening, the founder who has a pitch, a launch, something big coming up, what's one thing that they could do differently as they're preparing?

Stop being right and start getting it right with their talk. Because that's something that I see happening very often, especially for smart people, like smart thinkers. Who are rigorous in their own process. They have, like, the moment that they communicate, try to communicate their ideas, they try so hard to, like, make their case, to, like, to make it airtight, to put another proof on top of the argument so that it becomes even clearer. But what they confuse is that clear for me isn't clear for you. Like that we can agree on the facts and still come to very different conclusions. Like that I can see the same things as you do, but still act differently on what I see. And a lot of time is wasted in meetings, in presentations, in arguments, in trying to get the other side to agree with me. When all that's needed to make progress will be that we agree on a path forward that makes sense for both of us. And that's a completely different challenge, harder in the sense that I have to let go of my ego. But once I do that, much easier in terms of how the talk can actually look like and what I— how I show up on the stage and what I say when I do.

Yeah, great framing. Do you have a— you've shared a lot of great quotes and different information, but I'd love to hear if you have a quote, mantra, verse, poem, a family motto, some words that continue to inspire you on your own path to helping others make strategic impact.

There could be a couple of candidates, but if it's one, it must be Miles Davis, the famous jazz trumpet player, who once said that If you play a wrong note, it's the next one that makes it good or bad. And that's something that I try to live by. Like, you try things and you improvise at times and you make guesses at what the next step could be, and sometimes it turns out to be the wrong move, the wrong word, the wrong argument. But then we have a choice, like how do we act in that situation? We can handle it respectfully, we can just listen, pay attention to the situation, ask questions back, and then how we react and where we go from there determines if it was a bad or a good move. I think that's something that we can all learn from.

Absolutely. Michael, this conversation is Exactly why I often say brand is as strong as its message, and it's only as strong as its message. I believe that we have a new ebook that is available for our listeners, The Best Talk of Your Life, the One They Can't Stop Talking About. You're offering it for free at your website, michaelgerhartz.com/yba, and we'll have that in the show notes. And we'll also have links, of course, to The Path to Strategic Impact and to your podcast. And just a reminder, everybody, The podcasts are 2 minutes long, so you don't have an excuse to not listen to more of the great advice that Michael has for us. So I appreciate you coming in, tuning in from Germany to have this conversation with me today and to give such sage advice to the listeners.

Thanks. It's been a pleasure.

Great. And to everybody who's listening to this episode or watching it on your favorite platform, please leave us a rating review. Share Michael's journey, his books, his advice with other people, and I'll be back again with another amazing guest to share their story, their journey with you, give some tips and tricks that will make your life and your work better every day very shortly. Thanks for listening or watching to this episode of Your Brand Amplified. Don't forget to leave us a rating or review on your favorite podcast listening platform. And if you want to learn more, check us out at yourbrandamplified.com.