From Tech to Wellness Innovation: Anna Gudmundson's Infrasonic Therapy Breakthrough

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I think life inevitably includes challenges, and I think that's part of nature. I mean, if you look at nature, If there was no gravity to fight against, nothing would exist. So I think sometimes when we think that something is wrong, when our life isn't just smooth all the time, it's really unfortunate because I don't know anyone who doesn't have any challenges ever. And I don't really think that that's the point. We only really grow when we're out of our comfort zone. We only really grow from meeting our challenges.

Step into the world of success with Your Brand Amplified. The ultimate podcast designed to unravel the intricacies of thriving businesses. I'm your host, Anika Jackson, and I'm on a mission to uncover the stories, strategies, and secrets that have propelled entrepreneurs and business leaders to success. I am on a roll today with really amazing conversations, and I know my next conversation with Anna Gudmundsson is going to be just as amazing. Anika Jackson is amazing. Thank you so much, first and foremost, for being on Your Brand Amplified.

I am so excited to be here.

And I am really going to love what we're talking about today because it is something I believe in. I've used devices for the vagus nerve. But before we get into that, let's talk about your background. You spent 20+ years building tech companies, mobile, social media, and now The Pivot to Wellness. What was that moment or experience that made you say, I need to build this company, this is something really important?

Mm-hmm. Well, I guess it's like every moment in your life brings you to where you are today. So yeah, I have a background in tech and done a number of different things there, but as you mentioned, been early in some like societally changing technology trends, including innovation in mobile very early on and very early in social media. And obviously we've seen this innovation in this technology, these technologies shaping how we communicate, how we interact with each other, changing a lot of behaviors, literally changing our neurology. Also negative effects, right? So phone addiction is real for a lot of people. Social media anxiety is real for a lot of people. So. Really seeing how technology has this incredible ability to shape us and that we have a choice. We can innovate consciously with both great commercial opportunities, but really just be smart, you know, just kind of consider the side effects and where we want our, our products and, and innovation to go. I did also work a bit early on in wearables as well. And so I was very active. I was living in London at the time. I've lived in like 5, 6 countries and got to see sort of that whole evolution and was very active on the London early stage tech scene. So the, how I got to co-found and be the CEO of Sensate was because of my activity and at the time also working with wearables, uh, corporate wellbeing and things like that. And often speaking on, on stages and panels, multiple people suggested that Stefan, my co-founder, should have a conversation with me. And so Stefan is an amazing— he was at the time integrated healthcare practitioner only. It's a little wider scope and actually more towards our shifting more towards our mental health and our deeper purpose and those kind of things. And so him and his elite clinic, very well recognized in London, could see that if there was a common denominator with the likelihood of people recovering from many of the conditions that were often very complex. So people didn't come to their clinic for standard things that would go to their normal doctor, whereas when they've been to doctors for 10 years and it's, it's not going away, then you end up in, in clinics like that where an integrated holistic approach is necessary. And they could see that poor vagal nerve tone, i.e., poor stress resilience and frequent activation of the stress response in the body really undermined other interventions. And when we activate a stress response in the body, we undermine immune system, digestive system, a lot of things that are important for, for recovery, obviously. And so he and his group had been working to find a way to help patients regulate the nervous system at home, because if you only do it once when you come into a clinic and get treatment, it's not necessary. Is that going to make such a big difference? And came across this method that is a completely new way of using infrasonic therapy using the rib cage and with the little device that we have, and could see that it had this remarkable biomarker outcome in clinic and developed a little prototype. And so I think Stefan and I are very different and very complementary because he, he could have kept tinkering with that in his clinic forever, and I was I'm the reason that the product is now helping people all over the world with issues with sleep, stress, anxiety, and just regulating the nervous system, improving stress resiliency. So, and to be honest, I should add one more thing. I was just interested in learning originally, and it was really when we, I helped Stefan get the first batch to market and we sold it with broad messaging on methanol because I was convinced people just don't change habits. Like it's, it's, I've never, you know, it's so hard to get people to meditate and do breathwork and everyone should do it, everyone out there. But the behavioral change is different and difficult. And especially when people are very stressed or not feeling good, it's actually sometimes harder to establish these practices. And so when I saw the 3-month retention that people were still using, the vast majority of people still using the product after 3 months, I was absolutely blown away. Cause I'd never seen anything like that. And that's when I realized that this could really change the world and change many, many different lives in terms of actually providing a modern, normal person that isn't, doesn't have time to get up and do an hour of yoga and, uh, half an hour meditation every morning, but just living a stressful, overwhelming, often life. And it goes up and down, uh, that this is a tool for that person. And then that's when I decided to join in full-time.

And I have to say the design of the product is amazing. If everybody can see it. And that's, you can wear it, right?

Yeah. So you can either, most people actually just lie down and place the device on their chest and start a session in the app. You use your own headphones, so you actually have sound therapy and infrasonic therapy in the chest area and the harmonies between the two are harmonized. And so you can also use a lanyard and just hang it around your neck, but it needs to be, uh, at that higher part of the chest where the bony part not the lower soft part. So, and a lot of people do that using it on flights or sneaking into a bathroom before public speaking or whenever we need to, or before a dentist appointment. But, you know, wherever we need a support in, in downregulating our nervous system.

And the fact that it has also the meditation with it, I think that's vital because I have used a different device, but it wasn't the same at all. There is an app, but only the app to remind you to use it. No meditation along with it and something you had to hold against your neck. So that can be very awkward if you're just going about life to remember, okay, now I have to sit here and do this. Is it really working? Is it not? You're still thinking about so many other things. You're not really getting into that zone and that space in your head.

Hmm. Yeah. No, I mean the, most of our tracks are, or the sessions are actually just sound sessions. But I do, straight to your point, I think that the difference is that people actually genuinely feel the difference that most people do. For myself, I'm an optimizer, so I've been very blessed with not having an enormous amount of anxiety generally. No, no, I have stress. Don't get me wrong. I really need and I really use the product because, you know, running an early stage company is not stress-free in any shape or form. But the vast majority of people who really are stressed and anxious or can't sleep really notice a difference. It, it works for them. So, but for myself as an optimizer, it's a little bit more subtle. And then I have absolutely noticed the how it builds over time, that the more I use the product, the faster I drop into deep relaxation after just seconds when I start a session now because my nervous system recognizes it.

Can you talk about the evolution of your brand? I mean, you've described Sensate as bringing together Ancient knowledge, cutting-edge technology. When you were thinking about those campaigns, those marketing campaigns, those ad campaigns, and wanted to really share the truth, what were the things that you found have resonated most with the audience? Because I think these are very popular in some circles, topics, but then there are, to your point, lots of people who might not understand what that really means and why it's important.

Yeah, absolutely. So we have to see that there are two quite distinct. There's sort of 3 audiences. There are 2 that we market to and one that we don't market to. So, uh, the smaller audience, and the, I'll just start with the one we are not marketing to, that is people with chronic disease or any medical conditions because we don't make any medical claims. We haven't done any clinical testing on any of those specific conditions. However, they find out about it through other people and sometimes through the doctor because obviously you can absolutely use a, a wellness product that helps you regulate the nervous system without making medical claims. Regulating the nervous system helps most health conditions improve. So, you know, we know that there are a lot of people that actually, uh, get recommended, uh, using Sensate because, uh, you know, the lack of nervous system regulation is, is, is impacting their health condition. But again, we're not marketing to, to that, that audience. The two audiences that we sort of market to are the general stress, anxiety, normal human being, uh, doesn't biggest service, et cetera. So, and yeah, there's obviously, you know, more, more complexity, but that's also where I feel like from an impact perspective, we're really making a difference. And so that is the person that really doesn't have the privilege or access or doesn't sort of align value-wise with some of more spiritual practices, et cetera. And they are genuinely getting support from the product. They have never meditated. They may not ever meditate, although we highly recommend that. And just getting— so it can be life-changing. It can be really life-changing for someone who knows— a lot of people know that they feel stressed too often. They know that they're not performing at their best and know that they're undermining their health and their sleep and whatnot, and are really looking for something that helps that is natural or doesn't have side effects, right? So I think we, most people, it's kind of an illusion that most people want to take pills. We don't take a point of view. There are scenarios where it's needed and not, but a lot of people really do want to find sustainable ways of, and healthy habits. So there it is more about the outcome. And I think, you know, to some extent, I believe that people do realize that we are the real deal. There is obviously a lot of fake growth hacking happening. And, you know, a consumer today has to be more discerning. It is getting difficult. And, and we just try to stay very true and very authentic. I think that people tend to do a little bit of research and find that our reviews are all real. And, uh, you know, this product really works for people. For the third demographic, it is more the biohacker optimizer and longevity person. And so that's actually quite different because they know what the vagus nerve is. They know what heart rate variability is, and they're optimizing for another outcome. For them, it's not necessarily a life-changing tool because they're often okay. They're optimizing, right? It's not like coping, it's actually optimizing. It's a much smaller percentage of the population, but they're also often, um, like leading or influencing other audiences and educating. So we love that as well. And also when it comes to just— they send us their brain readings and sleep readings, heart rate variability readings, and just like rave about the product. So that's really helpful as well.

Yeah.

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Talk us through, 'cause we talked about where you put the device, talked about the app that goes with it and how a lot of the work that you do is actually about the sound. Can you talk to us about the changes that go on in somebody when they use it? Because I think we live in a society where people are stressed a lot of the time, whether we realize it or not. And then often we don't realize it until our body starts breaking down. We start having reactions, physical reactions to things. So you're really helping, yes, take care of some of that, but also combat that becoming more of an issue in the first place.

Yeah, absolutely. So it's a combination of this. Okay, so let's like just talk about life. I think life inevitably includes challenges. And I think that's part of nature. I mean, if you look at nature, if there was no gravity to fight against, nothing would exist. So I think sometimes when we think that something is wrong, when our life isn't just smooth all the time, it's really unfortunate because I don't know anyone who doesn't have any challenges ever. And I don't really think that that's the point. We only really grow when we're out of our comfort zone. We only really grow from meeting our challenges. And there is no parent who would, would just let their child lie in bed and eat ice cream. We challenge our kids to get better, to get out, to learn things, to dare to stand on a stage or dare to, uh, whatever it may be. So I do think that it's an element of life and the pursuit is not to remove anything that makes us feel uncomfortable because that's just being out of comfort zone. The pursuit is to have more and more ability to take bigger challenges and to not stress the the small stuff and to have the ability to meet challenges with some level of center. And that actually directly connects to good vagal nerve tone. So good vagal nerve tone means pretty much stress resiliency, that we get this ability not just to first react and then have a method to come back, which is the other thing that's very important, but to actually get this like instant nervous system level pause that allows us to decide how we want to respond instead of activating the default system, the fight, fright, fight, flight, freeze, where we get all this chemical havoc in our body and we increase inflammation and all these issues. If that happens frequent, frequently, right? It's a great defense mechanism if we are genuinely facing physical danger. However, most of our stressors are not today. Of physical nature. So that is the— is both having a practice, which we all should, because I would say just even on great days, because I love my job, I love what we're doing, I love how we're helping people. And this is so fundamental today that we're able to get more and more people to have more nervous system, um, control and more stronger nervous systems so that we can deal with all the triggers, because I think there's a lot to get triggered about every day today, so that we, instead of shouting at our neighbor, can be present, like, what's going on with them today? Or how can I connect? Or how can I be of support? So it feels extremely meaningful, but even on a great day, the just sheer number of meetings and the number of things that have to get done and challenges means that my nervous system is quite activated. And it was a very early Oura Ring. This is actually the second one I have because I think I bought the first one in 2018 or something. And so even just one Sensate session in the afternoon a day, 10 minutes, that's it, completely improved my overall intraday stress levels. And that is, that is the proactive looking after my nervous system so that when I have stressful events, I'm a little bit better. But then there's also, which I think most people are using it when they're just feeling completely overwhelmed, also sleep deprivation, to get deep relaxation. Sometimes people need to get nervous system relaxation. They're very tired, but they can't sleep. So there's a lot of these kind of modern-day applications. And as you said, you know, both the preventative or like building resilience, but then also having healthy ways to, to come back to calm when we're a little out of, out of whack. Yeah.

And, and this ties, I mean, what you were mentioning earlier, people don't necessarily wanna be on medications if you think you can find a more natural way to take care of things. And I think about how I can fall asleep, but I'm gonna wake up super early every morning and then I'm gonna feel brain fog and then I'm not going to be as productive because I can't give everything my full attention and how nice it would be to not have to take a medication to make sure that I stay asleep and stay asleep for a longer period of time. So, I mean, You've already won a fan here because I, yeah, we'll make sure that you get one too.

So yeah, it is actually quite common use case. We developed the product really for this kind of 10-minute-a-day, more, it came out of clinic, right? So it had more to do with, you know, a recovery program. Whereas now we're seeing so many people use it at night before sleeping or waking up early. And so there are two things that happen there. A lot of people actually just fall back asleep. We all forget all the time. So that's one use case or one scenario that may happen. The other one is the more you use it, the deeper relaxation you get during the sessions. And that means that even if you don't fall asleep, you almost get like a semi-sleep. So you're actually more rested when you get up. And that's really helpful for a lot of people as well.

And then also the idea that stress can socially isolate us. I know that I'm not always good about reaching out to my friends and people to let them know when I'm stressed or when I'm going through some illness or, you know, something that's adding more stress to ask for help. I know I have friends who have a lot of stress and are, and don't have a partner, maybe work from home and are also the same. They're not necessarily good about asking. And I think that's something because particularly in the United States, you know, we have this whole thing, we're supposed to be very independent. But I imagine that's something that you also hear from people is that having the ability to feel less stressed out, have less of this reaction also helps them become more present for their communities.

Oh, 100%. And I think like running an early stage company, having younger kids, we were just talking about ours being older now. There's a lot of stress involved, involved with that. And often we, if we act from a sympathetic state, from a stress state, we're not doing our best. That's when we lash out at people, when we make the wrong decisions as an executive, and etc. So I think that is, um, you know, nervous system health for anyone just trying to live today is probably an important part, but definitely very much as well for, for anyone in leadership roles, in parenting roles, interacting with people, thriving. I mean, traffic, just drivers or people that work with children in schools. I mean, there's so many jobs, first responders, obviously as well, where, you know, we, we tend to burn out our nervous system. It's hard to really see that the load of information and outside distractions are going to significantly decrease. In a near period of time. Obviously it's been millions of evolving our nervous system and we have more input now in a minute than we had in a year before or something like that. So, you know, we have to look after our nervous system. We have to take that in our hands so that we function the way we want in, in society and, you know, in, in our private lives as well.

When you moved, going back to your experience as a founder from software to hardware company that's also in a regulated, say, adjacent wellness space. You said there are some things you can get, but you can't claim to do everything. Were there any hurdles or barriers that were specifically unique to you coming from that software background of building tech companies that were purely tech?

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Yeah, no, I had actually done both hardware and software, so worked both with physical mobile and software. I was personally not responsible for the hardware, but then with the wearables I was, so had experience in both. And I think there is, there is this kind of idea that Hardware is Hard, you know, that book kind of created a little statement and I think that's changed a lot. You know, no one builds a factory nowadays. You work with the elite partners that absolutely know how to develop hardware and a lot less risk in many areas in terms of the level of fraud and security matters that you have with software nowadays. It's not. Zero-cost hosting anymore with the sheer volume. Obviously, we're very aware of the cost of AI, even just to compute. So I think that equation has flipped a lot, but I think from a fundraising perspective, unfortunately, I think some investors are missing out on enormous opportunities with believing in that statement. Because also sometimes it is the hardware that is the quote unquote killer app. Like that's what really, really makes a difference. So we are hardware and software. And then I think there was probably when we started out was actually pre-pandemic, right? Like, so right at the beginning of the pandemic or like got the first test batch in the market before. And so initially this weren't even conversations that were being had. I mean, I started meditating in 2012 and it was like this secret that no one said you couldn't really talk about it openly in the office because you were kind of weird. And it's almost hard to imagine now, you know, you're almost like weird if you're a CEO and you're not meditating because you're. Clearly like not performing at your optimal. So it's just completely flipped and turned around. So I think the initial channel challenges were, were in that space. And, you know, now that there is no stigma talking about stress and anxiety, mental health, really, at least not at the same level. And then you can always talk about the optimization aspect of it, which is such a big trend as well in longevity, healthspan, health optimization, etc. So that's, that's changed a lot. But I do think that we are deliberately a wellness product. So we have, we're deliberately not making medical claims, which makes it much easier in a way as an early stage company to go to market. So you don't have to navigate that regulatory framework to start with. We probably have ambitions to be able to do that in the future. We know that there are conditions where the product really, really helps and we'd love to do clinical testing in those areas. It's obviously a big budget question and return on investment. So we'll move more towards that, then expand our, our markets a little bit. But I have to say the stress, anxiety, sleep markets combined are astronomical and immeasurable. So it's not like we're lacking of market and the product is really, really working for people.

What does success look like for you in the next 3 to 5 years? Is the North Star still reaching 100 million people?

Yeah, reaching 100 million people means a lot of things. It means through directly our users. It means through the brand. So right now we kind of have the physical device and a subscription. As we grow, we're a mission-driven company. We really want to also, well, we already have a little bit of the kind of impact roadmap of, you know, how we try to help communities. We make sure that returned products are used for impact projects. And so, you know, if there are people with, with great impact projects that would like to do a pilot with us, they, they can contact us about that. And so, but impacting 100 million people is also then through what we can build as a platform. And that is kind of what's coming. So now we've proven like enormous product market fit with our existing product. And you know, that we can get to, get to break even and all of that. And so we're still in that stage where it's not an enormous amount of sexy things. It's kind of like, you know, selling the product, making sure that we stabilize the business. But I look forward to in the coming few years to bring more product to market, more services, and also deliver more on our impact roadmap and, um, be more of a, a sort of voice in this space and, and really work on having a positive impact on the sort of collective nervous system and creating a lot of inner peace around the globe.

Amazing. All worthy things, all things that we should all be, should be thinking about. Can you talk about typical when you do work with impact projects and you are doing this, you know, you said the products that you have, you're looking for project partners. Who is a typical project partner and is it all US-based? Is it all over? Is it global?

It is actually global. So it can be an organization, it could be a veteran hospital, it could be trauma-informed learning center. And so basically there are, some of them are, you know, commercial and some of them are more like of a study nature. But what's important is that there is someone on the other side. So we, you know, we're, you know, obviously working with them, but there is someone on the other side that can make sure that the project is well run. So, so that people get the benefits of it. And in this project as well, we want to make sure that the people who benefit from the product get to keep the product. You know, sometimes you do trials and disadvantaged groups that can't buy it and they benefit from it, then they don't get to keep it. So, and again, we obviously any, any returned products. We don't resell, so we use them in this or we, you know, sell them as returned group for type of projects. So that's sort of one area how we work. And it really is, I think everyone who works for the company is mission-driven and want to make sure that we increase access as much as we can, that we work with organizations that can support that because, you know, we obviously can't give away the product for free. We're a business and I also really believe in tremendous commercial success. In order for, to ensure maximum impact. And I wouldn't be doing this if it didn't have this incredible ongoing usage, because that is where you get very high lifetime value. And you get people are already gifting the product to friends and family, recommending the product. So if this was a pushing up the hill, you know, trying to get people to use the product, continuously nagging, or as you say, is this working? I don't know if it's working. It's a little uncomfortable. And after a few weeks, it's in the drawer, I'm not interested. That's not how we get global impact and, you know, yeah, get both on, on the company level, but like in very importantly in the lives of the individuals.

Oh, amazing. So we're going to have people go to getsensate.com. It'll be linked in the show notes. Your LinkedIn profile, if it's okay for people to reach out to you.

Yeah, absolutely. That's where I'm probably the most active, but I am a very busy person, so don't be offended. Please mention that you like, you heard, uh, you heard me here. I'm going to get someone to help me a little bit. We're a small team. So I'm still in that like very, very busy startup, uh, founder state. But yes, there is also MySense8 on Instagram. We also, well, obviously on Facebook and TikTok, um, as well.

Yeah. And we do have a 10% off discount for listeners. The code is amplified and we will have that listed in the show notes for everybody. So I'd love to hear if you have a final thought, something that drives you. It can be a quote, mantra, verse, poem, family motto, or just some words of wisdom.

Well, I do think that in terms of a more conscious next generation of human beings, I don't think there's anything more I can— important I can do right now than help individuals regulate the nervous system because that's when we have access to our prefrontal cortex, which is our empathy, our executive functions, all of that. So everyone, whether we feel it or not, we are generally overstimulated. We should find some way to regulate the nervous system. And the constant small steps towards self-care really do pay off. I think the personal journey, the personal growth journey, whatever it is, isn't— I always say it's an infinite journey, but every step is rewarding. And so that would just be an encouragement to find some way to daily do something that moves us in a positive direction.

Such great advice. And this podcast is about tips and tricks to make your life and your work better, and your work will be so much better if your life is better. And if you are looking into those things that you can do to regulate yourself, to get back into a calm state of mind and feel better prepared to conquer the world after that, whatever that looks like. Well, this has been really fun and I'm very excited that we're planning a future coffee since we live so close. That'll be very fun to actually get to meet you in person. So thank you so much, Anna, and thank you to everybody who is watching this episode or listening to it. Be sure to look out in the show notes for the information on Sensate, the product, and reach out to Anna, but also know that she may not reach out to you as she mentioned, because it's very hard to be a startup CEO and be wearing many, many hats.

Thank you.

Absolutely. And with that, I hope everybody has a wonderful time, wonderful day, wonderful rest of your week until we see each other again. Thanks for listening or watching to this episode of Your Brand Amplified. Don't forget to leave us a rating or review on your favorite podcast listening platform. And if you want to learn more, check us out at yourbrandamplified.com.

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