No Smoke, No Mirrors: David A. Pratter on Data-Driven Approach to Client Growth

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A lot of businesses really believe that, oh, this is good enough. And I find the opposite to be true day over day because AI now can make a brand, you know? So if you have a, a less developed brand or a brand with less depth, you'll just get buried real soon. So again, because my mind is on look good, that is the mistake I see the most.

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I am so excited to have, and I wish everybody is watching this versus just listening, David A. Prater and his fun shirt. And David, I feel like we're gonna have a, can I just keep using that word, a fun conversation because of the work that you do. You are one of the co-founders of DotFun, right? So can you talk a little bit about your concept of being an artist and creator who loves making things look good.

Absolutely. So for about 4 or 5 years, I did freelance websites and branding and never really had a great hold on the rest of the business value that could be delivered through visual avenues. But through.Fun, we combined what my department is called, look good, feel good, and run good. So My job is genuinely to make anything that needs to look good, look good. From UI/UX to brand design from the ground up, websites, we've started doing videos, both recorded and animated. So to me, it's very literal. Whatever needs to look good is in my job description and it's been super fun to handle as a team.

Well, talk to us about the other two parts of the company. I mean, you and I have had these conversations, but my audience is not as familiar.

Yeah. So look good is look good, and I'm sure we'll dive all over that today, but feel good is a little harder to understand. But the reason we named it that was first because look good, feel good is a common phrase, but feel good to us is anything that would make you feel good about your business's growth. So new leads, conversion rates going up, ads performing well, SEO Rising. So that's everything that falls into, into Feel Good. And we have a separate founder who is an expert in all of those things. So on a day-to-day basis, he's strategizing for ad campaigns, executing, optimizing, planning SEO, both on-page as well as the technical SEO. He works together with Run Good, which is our other co-founder Alvin. He's done about 10 years in software development and program management and project management, so he handles those things for us as well as technical SEO, automation, AI enablement. All of these things land under Rangood.

Talk to us about that conversation where the three of you decided we need a partner and we're going to have, I mean, DotFun is such a great name. Right. And it's something that will get people's curiosity up.

Totally. So I had actually been operating under the name DotFun during my freelance journey. I had kind of two businesses going. One was Aligned by Design where I focused on art, and one was DotFun where I focused on marketing and setting up things like CRMs for clients. So I'd been doing that freelance, kind of coming up against the wall where a lot of clients were asking for ads and I didn't quite understand how to really do it. I would set up Performance Max ads on Google, which were pretty much automated and just kind of follow recommendations, but never really had the expertise to feel confident spending a lot of budget. And then I, I had been traveling full-time, tech nomading, doing these freelance websites. And then I came back to town after some time, and both of the other founders who would end up being co-founders with me, had quit their corporate jobs at the same time. And that led to us kind of going to dinner one day and realizing it would probably be a good idea for us to join forces and deliver this as a package deal. So it all just kind of lined up. And then we sat, I sat down with Pearl, the leader of Feel Good, and my only request was that it be called.Fun. And we went from there.

So taking it from idea to a full business, not just a freelance business, what was that like?

Having a real project manager on was really the biggest key because for years I had everything in my head on notepads, just was, you know, things would often just exist as much as I could remember and what really to me switched it from freelance to a real business was having a project manager who's ensuring that everything's getting done, who's ensuring that our boards are getting cleared and we're doing proper onboarding for contractors. So at the end of the day, my day-to-day felt similar except that I was getting more done, being held more accountable, and when others are dependent on you, timelines become a little bit more real. So that was the main difference. But the, the standard of quality stayed the same. We all care a lot about quality, so there wasn't too much of a hump to cross as far as like, what's the difference between what might feel like amateur and freelance to professional in a business? We, we all kind of had a, a good standard already set.

Nice. Your tagline, no smoke, no mirrors, just clear KPIs and results. That's a really bold statement for an industry known sometimes for overpromising and underdelivering. So talk to us about where that philosophy came from. And how do you live it out?

Yeah, that's all Pearl. Pearl is the metrics guy. He informs me on the look-good side of what things I should be focusing on in my visuals for ads. He informs Alvin on what technical SEO things should be handled. So later on in our site, you see that we say specifically that, that we're kind of the antidote to the over-promise, under-deliver because I think we all at this point in this space have experienced someone who comes in, promises the world, and then nothing really actually happens. And I was actually a part of an agency where I experienced that. I was running sales and my accounts would come in. They'd be like, yeah, that sounds great. And I was like, yeah, right. And within a few months I noticed all of them had complaints. I tried to turn inside and say like, what's going on? Are we actually delivering? We weren't. So I left that. And that's how I kind of started the freelance website journey because it was something I could handle all on my own. But let me back up a little bit. We deliver on that by having someone who is laser focused on what the data is and the actual results. So every day Pearl is checking if ad campaigns are working or not. If they've had too many impressions and not much click-through, they're off. And so really just delivering on the idea that, okay, whether you have a small ad budget or a large ad budget, we're going to set a plan. We're going to stick to it. And it kind of went from when I was freelancing, this like nebulous, like, how do you handle this? It's like, no, it's, it's quite scientific. You spend, you have an outcome that you're hoping for. You compare by the end of the campaign. If you're not hitting it, you adjust something. And so far we've been actually breaking past most of our projections. That's fucking great.

And I think part of your other strategy is also working with long-term partnerships, which is great because then you are being able to really track results. You're able to have the time to test and iterate and see where trends are going and what you want to do for your clients. But also share with us, how do you decide who is a good fit for your business and who isn't, and who is somebody who you think will be a long-term partner? Right? Versus somebody who's just kind of one and done.

Great question. So we started the business, uh, just over a year ago now as a partnership, and we really were like, who wants it? Like, who wants to, to grow? And we learned over time that a lot of these smaller businesses, while we do want to serve them, taking on— we, for example, took on sort of revenue share deals early on and those kinds of things we are not accepting anymore because we realized it's not in our best interest, or really we can't deliver as good of results when there's not a strong amount of ad budget behind it. Or just a retainer, for example, is really our ideal client right now. So about 100 employees has been our best area, and we call ourselves a growth agency because we want to be assisting companies that are kind of like in the thick of it, where they have a lot of gaps to fill because we have this unique offering where we cover these 3 different angles that we believe every medium-sized business needs. So when they're growing especially is when they kind of don't have all the resources to handle it. And we want all 3 founders involved. So that's really our ideal client. Someone who has some amount of funding, is ready to spend on ads, and is aiming for growth, whether it's from 1 to 10, 10 to 100, places where there's like instability, so we can provide this nice support, full-fledged.

Nice. Are there any specific categories of industry that you find to be your sweet spot?

So far it's software. Software has been our best, our best clients. We're working across 4 different industries of software, SaaS products, as well as technology companies, IT companies. So that's been our best bet. AI companies popping up all over the place that want branding and design, but not all of them are quite as established or sticky as we would like. So more like established softwares, again, 50 to 100 employees, which most AI companies, like most small AI companies don't really have right now.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. So, a little bit past startup, right, into the next rounds of funding.

Exactly.

Yeah.

If it's a well-funded startup, it has also worked well.

Okay, nice. Well, I was thinking particularly about an example of a client who went from 1 employee to 10, right, who 5x their revenue, who grew their email list 10 times while working with you. So that is an example of where the work that you do has worked really well in that unique circumstance. What was the turning point in that engagement and was that somebody you took on before you realized what your sweet spot was?

That was someone we took on before our sweet spot was. So that's, uh, she's in the social media influencer space. That was mainly actually what we would call a run-good client. So we handled email lists, automations, CRM setup. We didn't do any design for her. And, and actually the turning point was her actually starting a brand new account with a new social media plan. So definitely don't take the credit for like how much she grew her social media, but that project was called the Libido Fairy and she went from 10,000 followers pretty stagnantly and now has about 500,000 followers. And what we do take credit for is how solidly we handled the backend through that growth. So all her email deliverability stayed steady. She had some ideas that she wanted to test, and actually one of my proudest moments was saying that we shouldn't pursue an email server change that she wanted to try because it would save her some money. But while sitting with her and like actually weighing the options, it seemed like a bit shoddy compared to the setup we had, and she ended up paying maybe 10 times more for email sending. But just because she was— since she's sending about a million emails a month, the delivery rate even by 2% increase, we kind of did the numbers on that and that's kind of where we like to consult and, and, and be a support system. So, that project was super fun for that.

And that is something that a lot of smaller businesses were always on the hunt for. This tool versus that tool. Do I wanna spend that much money or make this investment? And having other people who can help us get through that, right? Because we see the shiny new object, oh, this is the new, CRM that everybody's using, or this is the new blah, blah, blah that everybody's using, I think is really helpful because otherwise we're just running around switching, switching every year, and that's not helping us build up a strong base. It's not helping us get that consistency that we need.

Totally. There was actually something that I just got validated on in that specific instance, which was, so Flowdesk was the shiny new object. She was like, oh, Flowdesk offers unlimited email. And I was like, I don't think that's really possible. Like from everything I know about email deliverability and sending, they can't do that. It's, it must be a marketing tactic. They're going to turn that off at some point. Sure enough, about 2 months ago they turned it off. I actually just spoke to a client, or actually more of like a friend who I, I consult here and there, and she's using Flodesk and having all kinds of problems. So that was really validating.

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Car selling made easy on Carvana. Pickup fees may apply. I, uh, appreciate you saying that because I moved to Flodesk. I still have my other email system set up. It's just on like hibernation, I guess. But right, I still have all my emails there cause I didn't wanna quite give that up and I have been paying for it every month. I've used it once because number one, I just don't have a lot of time, which is why I'm hiring more team members to take over certain parts of the work, but it's not as easy for me to understand how to use it appropriately and like how, you know, it's really pretty, but I'm feeling seen.

Yes. We did it somewhere with, he was like, let's try Flodesk. It's unlimited. And I was like, okay, hold on. Let's put it, let's do the same thing. I put it on hibernation. We kind of set up a version. My big red flags were that the automation system would have been, had to have been set up in a very janky way to achieve what we were achieving in a combination of Mailgun and GoHighLevel. So that was my number one, but I was like, let's try it anyway. And then we did send one email and we just had like much lower deliverability scores, much lower, maybe even just like 10% lower open rates. So immediately we're like, oh, shut that down, turn this back on. And then I think if, since you already have Flodesk, they still will offer you the unlimited email for one price as like a, like, uh, grandfathering you in. But they did just now stop offering that. Anytime I see like a deal that's too good to be true, I know what's coming is like slowly the quality's gonna reduce over time for them to start regaining their profit. And I just instead choose to stick with the, the tried and true.

Yeah, no, that makes a lot of sense. And speaking of, you also build custom AI agents, chatbots, data-driven apps. In addition to all of the traditional marketing that we think of. Talk to us a little bit about that and how are you seeing AI change what's possible for the SMBs?

Great question. So actually that rolls into something. So to kind of call back earlier how we took on these smaller businesses, didn't feel like it was the right fit, but we still wanted to really support them. And we have this vision of bringing AI, the power of AI to the people. And in the sense that instead of these like mass changes to industries that are going to happen because jobs might get replaced, et cetera, we have a mission statement that we want these tools that would serve even a 1-employee home service business, for example, and help them not have to either do so much project management day to day, or even answer their phone and answer preliminary questions, or send the call over, screen the call so you're not answering so many spam calls. To answer the question of what's possible is so wild this year because Alvin, who's been doing 10 years of software development the old-fashioned way, is now like a single-man team cranking out new features in an app in like a day and a half.

Amazing.

We were getting ready to launch the first part, which is we're calling Iris and is an AI receptionist. And we noticed that we were missing kind of a whole feature. We, we wanted a, a contact list and CRM built into the app. And you know, our heads start going, oh, okay, well it's probably about a month pushback. And he had the feature ready in about 2 days. Now that's using Cursor, which is the coding environment where you can set up your databases and your, your, an AI chat window as well as a conversational window. But in the long term, this is kind of a bit out there, but in the long term, the theory is that software just goes away as far as like rigid software packages. Instead, you turn on your AI, you say, oh, I need this thing that does this thing, and here's my inputs that I'm going to have, and I would like you to organize it in this way, and I'd be able to, I'd like to be able to call people, and like, I would like a full CRM built in, and it will simply exist personalized for your needs. We're not quite there. We're in this in-between where not every person wants to interface with AI, and it's not easy enough for every person to interface with AI yet. But things like Open Claw coming out, which a lot of people are raving about, even that's not there yet. For me to say like, oh yeah, by the way, Uncle Dan, you can have a personal assistant that's constantly scraping the web for knowledge articles you're interested in and giving you recommendations on how to push forward your passion projects. Like it exists, but it's first, not that easy to set up, and second, not secure enough yet to recommend everyone. But one day we will be able to really have our own Jarvis, each of us.

Yeah. I'm such a firm believer in that, and I cannot wait for that day. But to your point, I don't even remember if we've talked about this in our previous conversations, but to better vet podcast guests, I created a 4-agentic bot system, right? And it's not, I haven't had enough time to finish developing it because I need just the hours in the day that I don't have until I start. But now I'm starting to staff up more, but I also realize now with LLMs and the way they move, I can just create a custom GPT that will do the same thing, right? So I've created that for my podcast. It works really well, but now I'm in the process of changing and replicating it for other people to use. 'Cause I was like, oh, this is something I could have people pay for. But I'm like, I would rather just have people be able to use it for free because I've also figured out the right prompts to do the same thing if somebody just wants to prompt engineer project in one of their LLMs. But in such a short time, right? Going from, oh, I have to use this multi-agent system to no, I can just actually create this. Oh, and I can simplify it for people who don't want to do this to follow these exact prompts for your show, put in all these parameters. This is the information you need from guests. Done. Everything's moving so quickly. And so, I, for one, am very excited about having a mix of human admins and AI admins who can help me do things while we are doing what we do best, or being able to like be human for a little bit and take a break.

So, Yeah, I totally agree. You mentioned that we build custom AI bots and, and different agents. And so essentially we're kind of creating this two-tiered system where it's, do you want us to come in and genuinely build a custom solution for your exact business? Or if not, here's kind of a suite of simplified items that we believe have a very broad appeal. So that's how we're approaching it because Even if I'm on the fast end of things, I think we have at least, at least 5 years before we get to a point where we genuinely have these like offboard personal AIs that can pull things together, at least.

Wow.

Amazing. What is the process when somebody comes to you and says, I have a great product, nobody knows about it? Where would you, what are the questions you would ask? What's the research or the data that you need to know that they'll be a great client for you and that you can help them and to help them understand where they need to start?

From the beginning, it's all 3 of us hop on a call with questions, usually personalized to what we can find. So like, obviously, do they have a website? Do they have any branding set up? What are their goals is a huge one. And then backing into it from there. So if their goals are more to start automating things, or if their goals are to make a certain amount of money, or to have a certain amount of signups, then this is no longer my job, but Pearl will back into some numbers. I'm like, okay, well now if I do some research, then I know that clicks in this industry cost this much. And if we guess that 3%, let's say, of those clicks convert, then that means you get this many conversions to your thing. And then do we hit your goals? So a lot of the early on is figuring out if they're, if the plan that they've brought makes sense and if working with us makes sense. Because all in all, we are a pretty hands-on higher ticket service when it comes to all 3 of us working on a project. So usually the first questions are figuring out the goals. Are they realistic? Is this something that makes sense for us to come in and help on? And if not, we do have trusted networks that we say, oh, well, if all you need is HubSpot connection and a little bit of information data parsing, here's someone who can help you with that. And we do our best to to find the projects where we can like all three put our heads together. So usually the questions come down to where are you at, where are you headed, what would a great next 6 months look like? And then we make sure that we can knock it out of the park.

Fantastic. And what is the biggest mistake you see businesses make when it comes to their marketing or their branding? What costs them the most?

With bias here, I think that bad, like, not unique or yeah, bad branding is probably one of the biggest costs and that I see most often because it's not the easiest to quantify. Obviously if we rebrand something, we can then show that conversion rates changed, but a lot of businesses really believe that, oh, this is good enough. And I find the opposite to be true day over day because AI can now can make a brand, you know? So if you have a less developed brand or a brand with less depth, you'll just get buried real soon. So again, because my mind is on look good, that is the mistake I see the most. And I believe Pearl would probably talk about SEO, same with Alvin. They've been really, really driving home like, especially with AI these days, SEO is huge because you start getting mentioned in those LLMs. If you're technical, there's no excuse for technical SEO to be low these days. You can literally just talk to an AI about it. And we've cleaned up just the biggest messes in just a few days as far as duplicate content, low HTML to text, uh, 404s. You can programmatically solve all of that now. So another huge mistake that we see and we think is at this point low-hanging fruit, but used to be this major undertaking that you would have to do. And probably not automating. I think that there's so many things that can be automated these days that are still being handled by entry-level jobs. And it's always hard to say because we're trying to strike this balance between we Our intention is not to wipe out a job market. Our intention is to enable business owners to have more resources to push, push their mission forward. But there's just certain things that people spend a lot of time in their day on that, that can be automated now.

You talked about the fact that you're kind of a higher ticket item, right? Service, because you work best when you all three work together and I love that you put that at the center of part of your business because I find when I say, okay, make a concession from the way that I usually set up systems and processes for clients, it makes it more confusing, right? My team then has to go, okay, wait, we're not doing this part of the work, we're just doing this part. So which team members am I bringing in? And we're not able to be as effective as we would be if all of my team were working on a project. And of course, this relates mostly to podcasts. And podcast production. So I feel like sometimes we say yes to opportunities because they're there and we thought they were gonna be a bigger opportunity, and then we kind of feel like we have to continue saying yes instead of saying no. So I'd love to hear about any times since you codified as a full business with the three of you, when have been those times that you've had to say no, whether it's been hard or not, or have you had to fire clients that you were partway through Project SWIZ.

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We've never fired someone partway through. If we've committed to a project, we tend to finish it. We've had clients that we didn't renew because they didn't have a large enough ad budget for us, especially because that client was actually a revenue share client. The one we took on, one of those that we took on early on in the business. So it just didn't make sense anymore. It was all understood and was a lighthearted ending to the relationship. Projects we have said no to are, so we will take a client even if it's just one leg of the business. This year we kind of solidified like, okay, minimum engagement per leg is this minimum engagement for all three of us adds up to this. Great. We'll do that. However, if If someone comes in for one leg and then starts kind of like picking that leg apart, that's where we'll say no. If they're like, oh, well, all we need is technical SEO, but not on-page, or all we need is, like I said, HubSpot integration with data parsing, that's just not, not the job for us. So again, we have this trusted network of people that we've connected with or worked with on past projects. They're like, if you're really looking for just an expert on this one thing, that's them. We're here. To help a more holistic approach of growth happen. So I'm trying to think actually now what other— we've said no to most revenue share offers that have come our way now. Like I think people took on that or found out that we were offering that. So a lot of people came to us with that and we're like, uh, we're kind of not doing that now, at least until we start like feeling our legs under us and that we can— it's almost like once we're ready to do philanthropy, and then we will reach out to maybe charities who need a website upgrade or something like that and work on a pro bono basis. But that, we have all said no to a lot of clients who like, when they hear our minimum engagements are a no, that, that comes through and happens. And that's what has felt really good about the minimum engagement. Like us sitting down and clarifying that has saved us a lot of admin hours. Because we would do a sales call, be like, okay, that seems low, but let me go talk to the team. Now it's like, okay, this is what you have. That doesn't meet our minimum engagement. It's a no, move on. So that's felt really good this year. Nice.

And obviously you're working with friends, so that can be difficult sometimes having to figure out how to have your personal relationship and your professional relationship and how to figure out exactly how you're all gonna work together, which sounds like you've done a lot of work on. And even bringing clients in, like, do you all have to work on bringing prospects in? Is that just something you're doing through your own growth and performance marketing efforts? Because the three of you, you know, combined have this expertise. So, can you share a little bit about that?

Yeah, we were just joking today about how excited we would be to run our own ad campaign soon, but all of our attention has been on clients and we're at pretty much an 80% capacity constantly and we're hiring to keep It— there, we're all expected to be thinking about bringing in new jobs. However, a lot of it has been coming in through Pearl and the Feel Good division because a lot of companies we've found are mainly interested in like, oh, could you just run some ads for us? And what our avenue is starting to open up is like, yes. And we've done this enough times that we know within a couple weeks, there's going to be a lot more that you want done. So we'll start there, but keep it like a 1-month trial period. Our biggest contracts came from relationships that Pearl and Alvin had in corporate over their career. People have moved to new job, new companies, and then want to hire either of them. And well, now we're an agency and they find that we're still delivering the same value and actually maybe even more efficiently. So That's been a huge avenue for us to grow DotFun. But yeah, our website lagged. We got like 5 client websites done before ours went live. We have not run a single ad campaign for ourselves. That's partly because we have the work already in hand. However, this year, especially because we're now hiring marketing help, we will have them running ad campaigns and, and growth marketing for our own company, which will be great. And then working with friends has been, I think we're lucky that we're, we have a bit of a unique relationship. We all have thrown theme camps and events together at festivals. So we already had kind of a dynamic of getting things done and understanding how each other received communication best or where we shine and where we have trouble. So while there is some of like the woes that people mention about working with friends, we're also all very clear on where we're headed. And if things are getting tight around money, that which is, can be an awkward conversation to have with a friend. So far, I give us a 10 out of 10 about navigating those things. And we have some systems in place. Actually, Pearl worked for a company that was essentially packaging up a corporate philosophy, a new age corporate philosophy into a software. So he learned a lot about kind of the new age of the issues that come up in our modern society and how to address them with company structure. And we've applied a lot of that and it's been super helpful.

So you're just celebrating your first year of business. What do you see in the next 3 to 5 years? What are you most excited about?

We've started Playing with the idea of throwing events, and that's really exciting to me. It falls under the look good category, and being that we've already done it as far as throwing theme camps for festivals and throwing fundraisers for those theme camps, it's just seems natural that we start doing it for the business. Really excited for that. Really excited for this suite of apps that we have planned. Like I said, like in 5 years, is a very good chance that software dissolves into AI. But for these next 5 years, building a system that really supports small business owners to have more time to actually further their missions is really exciting for me. And building a larger team. Right now we have about, we have exactly 5 full-time employees and 3 semi-full-time who also have their own projects on the side. But I love team building. I've been a camp counselor since I was a kid and just like organizing community is, is one of my favorite things. So there's kind of a clear difference between a 2-person team and a 10-person team. Like 2-person team, you kind of like have to bootstrap even the motivation, you know, like we are a company, I swear it. And then once we have 10 employees who all are interacting with each other, passing things back and forth, it all feels like it's a really drumming up a nice energy. So really excited for that.

Fantastic. That's amazing. Okay, David. So we're going to have people go to dotfun.co, right? Are there opportunities for people if they can't afford your rates to still interact or subscribe to some of the software products?

Totally. So we'll actually be releasing our first software product. It'll be in like open beta, let's say over the next month. And we're always happy to talk. Like if you fill out the contact form on dotfund.co, you can count on a response. And even if we have some time to jump on a call, like we're always open to fielding a new opportunity. Even if you think like, oh, I can't afford it, let's talk. We really are a small business, so it feels good to interact with community no matter what, whatever, whether it be clients or other businesses who are doing similar things. I have been actually, our conversation, initial conversation was simply me having an initiative of like, let's just start talking to people. And so still totally on that wave and happy to interact. We'll also start activating our LinkedIn and maybe Facebook, but all those avenues are great, great to connect with us. And we're always happy to talk.

One last question. Do you have a favorite quote, mantra, verse, poem, family motto?

Yes. There's a song and I should probably look up where this sample comes from, but it's a song called Joy by FKJ. And the opening is, we're going to do it with our hearts and we're going to do it good. And that was kind of the basis of Doubtfun for me. That's where look good, feel good, run good came from, kind of. And it kind of encompasses everything, whatever comes across our table. We're gonna do it with our hearts. We're gonna do it good no matter what.

Fantastic. Well, this has been fun. I love all these conversations because I can go from the last one that I had, which was interviewing somebody who has multiple 6 to 8-figure businesses and has had a lot of failures and a lot of those to brand new business, a year old that's already finding great success. And I imagine the next time we have you on, We'll be able to have a conversation about everything else you're doing, right? In addition to all the add-ons, how everything's performing and what we didn't even get into really talking about any of the specifics about the different areas of your business and some of those things that we need to be considering. So, but I loved having this be a kind of business showcase. I really enjoyed our initial conversation, and so that's why I was like, yep, you have to come on the podcast. So, David, thank you so much for being here.

Thank you so much for having me.

And if you are a new business and you wanna get a little airtime, I like having everything from the big businesses that have sold for lots of money to the businesses that are just starting out. I feel like I'm always in the process of reinvention. I've had successful businesses, I've had businesses that, you know, I had to move on from. And I'm, I'm really, even though my podcast is several years old, you know, just gotten to the pinnacle of that and making it really its own profit center, its own business, and added on all these other businesses. So it's really exciting to hear from other people who are kind of in similar shoes and similar veins and hearing about their experiences. So I love it when people reach out to me, consider it for yourself, for your business, and think about all the things that David has said. Some of the things you should think through when you're starting a business You know, I think fun is so important for us to have. It's important for us to really love what we do and the concepts that you put behind your business of look good, feel good, run good. So important and so key for anything that we do. So thank you to everybody who's watching or listening. I'll be back again with another amazing guest to share their story, their journey, and some things for you to think about as you go on your own business journey. Very soon.

Thanks for listening or watching to this episode of Your Brand Amplified. Don't forget to leave us a rating or review on your favorite podcast listening platform. And if you want to learn more, check us out at yourbrandamplified.com.

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