Part Two: Paul Ingram on Guiding Leaders Through High-Stakes Decisions

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I want to think about some practical application for others.

Sure.

In the book, you do share a story of Akansha choosing between 3 job offers using value scoring.

Yeah.

So we get to the point where we know what our values are, right? And I know we didn't talk about the chief executive value, but I think you kind of did when you talked about the top 5.

Yeah, that's joy for you. Yes. Yeah.

And so how does the process actually work of value scoring when you are looking at things? And then how do entrepreneurs apply that same tool to decisions they may face?

Yes. Yes. Great. So let me lead into this by just doing something I haven't, I think, done yet, which is give you an explicit definition of a value. A value is a principle of evaluation. A value is a principle of evaluation. We use our values to evaluate every other thing, a person, a project, a job, an idea. It is good, bad, or important as a function of how we see it through the lens of our values. So if our values tell us what is good and important, then they're going to be really significant for choices. Right? So in some sense, the right choice for you, at least the choice, the alternative you're going to be most satisfied with, is the one that's more aligned with your values. So how do we put that into practice? Well, the example you mentioned of Akansha, who was actually a student, now she's a partner in a consulting firm. She actually came to me at one point with this tool that she had built using her values because she had some job choices. She had internal choices, options in the company she was with. She had the idea she might like to leave at that stage and go into consulting. And she did this formal scoring of her expected satisfaction of each value against the job option. So she had a value of creativity. She would say, oh, in this option, it's going to be completely satisfied, 5 out of 5. Here it's going to be sort of middling, a 3 maybe. So she did that. By the way, she included other things besides values, right? I'm not saying values are everything that go into a choice, certainly not in most circumstances. But as I said, this explains more than 30% of your job satisfaction, right? And so there's nothing that's a bigger predictor of which alternative you're going to be more satisfied with. So she did that assessment. She ended up choosing the consulting job. She's done really well and risen up in a global firm. And actually, some of my MBA students converted this into a tool that they use in job search season. They look at the alternatives, and sometimes one of their alternatives is entrepreneurship. And they imagine how are their values going to be satisfied, right? So you can make a choice. You could make a choice into two business options. For example, I worked with one leader whose dilemma was keep operating the family firm that she had inherited or sell that and do something on her own? And when she did this assessment, the answer was really clear. And not only did it help make the choice, but it gives you the confidence to go forward and make the choice. So, in this case, selling the family firm was the way to go for her values. But you can imagine that's hard because her father had built the firm, was counting on her taking it forward. But when she sees that the other route is completely the direction to satisfy her values, give you the courage of conviction. And you can imagine explaining, imagine if your child came to you and said, "Mom, this is the route that is really aligned with my values," and could articulate that. You got to win people over to that decision. Also say something else because you're providing this important context of entrepreneurship. That of course the option aligned with your values is more satisfying for you. But that's not always everything, right? The entrepreneur might be choosing between two products or two markets or two chief operating officers. And it might be really kind of the business that is kind of the driving outcome that they're looking for. But I would suggest that even if you're making a business decision, Your values are important if you are important to implementing the decision. Because as you know, experience in entrepreneurship, it's hard. There's hurdles. You've got to motivate people. You got to persuade. You need resilience. And we have much more motivation, capacity to inspire and win over others' trust, much more resilience when we're pursuing a path that we see as aligned with our values. So when I'm working with a leader on strategy for their company, we go through all of the tools that you're familiar with, analyze competitors and customers and technology and regulation. But when they come up with a tentative strategy from looking outward, I ask them before they finalize it to look inward, to imagine pursuing the strategy. To what extent do they anticipate satisfying all their values? And if they run into something a value that's going to be violated, or in general their value is not going to be satisfied, the next step is to say, OK, if this is the right strategy, how do you do it in a way that's going to work for you? If you can't answer that question, I think probably you're not going to be an effective leader of that initiative, right? Because we all know that if we fundamentally don't view something as important, we don't view it as really good in our own evaluation system, we can't really do our best work. Yeah, absolutely.

I wanna talk a little bit about team building, hiring, and culture. So one of the things in your research shows is that what builds strong relationships isn't just shared values, but also understanding each other's values, even if they're different, which sounds a little counterintuitive. So what does that mean for people who are hiring teams?

Yeah, that's a, I think that's a, a very practical thing to zero in on. The first thing when it comes to hiring teams is You know, let's just talk about like the, the first principle. It's better to have value alignment, right? So teams work better when they're aligned around values. This is not at all against the understanding that diversity is good for teams. It's a question of diversity on what. So literature on team effectiveness shows that the best teams are aligned around values, which means they're pulling in the same direction. They're diverse on beliefs, experience, perspectives, right? So they are trying to get to the same goal and they can learn from each other to get to the Right? So, first best option is, you know, recruit people who are aligned around values that are important on your team. We can't always do that, right? Sometimes we need someone who's got a certain relationship with a customer or a certain technical skill. They've got good values, but they're different than those on the team. We need them. Under those circumstances, what we find, and I love that you recognize it's counterintuitive, is that it's better if you can articulate the values and really develop empathy, right? So, for example, people are much more satisfied in a job where they're aligned around values. But if they're misaligned and they can really empathize with the values that others hold they don't share, they feel better. They feel much better about it. So, this turns out actually to be easier than you might imagine. I've set a couple times. My students often carry around these laminated cards. I've had so many over the years tell me that they go on a job interview and they show the recruiter their value card and say, "Hey, let's talk about values. I use this to explain mine. I'd love to ask you about yours." They go to their partner or spouse and they use— they say, "Hey, I did this in my workshop. Love to talk about this and ask you about your values." So, if you can just kind of present and talk people through your value, it's not hard. You know, no one ever Everyone says, oh, I showed them my set of values and they were baffled. They didn't know what was going on. They always say we have a good conversation. Sometimes they say, hey, we're in different places, but they always have a good conversation. So if you can do that, you feel better. We did an experiment actually on this where we found that if people have good but different values and they explain them, then they want to connect and build a relationship with each other as if their values had been the same. Which is typically who we gravitate most to. So it's, it's really empathy at the heart of it. And another way to think about it, let's unpack your acute observation that it's a little counterintuitive. There's a lot of power from understanding somebody's values, right? If I know your values, if I know competency is really important to you and strength and support, then I know how to interact with you. I know if something happens, I've got a better idea about how you're going to respond to it. So you become more understandable to me, right? And it's really hard to interact with somebody who's random and we don't know if we do this, what, how they'll respond. You know, we want reliability in terms of the input-output, right? That's how we have smooth relationships. So if you can empathize and understand someone else's values, you can get that even if the values are different from your own.

As you're talking about this, I'm thinking beyond the world of work into, of course, politics and just the way the world is and the fact that I truly believe we are more value-aligned than not, but the differences are what's picked up in the media. So I, as you're saying this, I'm just thinking everybody needs to go through this exercise together.

Yeah, I, I'm with you. And, you know, here's something that I think is completely consistent with the view that you're articulating. I said I've done this work with more than 10,000 people from around the world. Certainly, some of them have been politicians. And nobody has ever articulated bad values. Nobody has ever said cheat to get ahead. They all say things that you would look at or anybody else would look at and say, well, those are good things. Yeah, more of those things in the world is good. You would also say that you prefer—

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Your values, right? Because it's a, it's a question of ranking, so you always think your values are good, but everyone else claims to be pursuing values that you would look at and say, yeah, those are good things too. Now, I'm not saying everybody in the world is pursuing good values, right? There's— it's— I think it's a small percentage, but 1% of even successful people are psychopaths, and a psychopath would lie if you ask them about their values. So I know about the very small proportion of people who are pursuing bad values. This leaves 99% of the people in the world. And we have intense conflicts with more than just 1% of the people in the world. So, if we can see through to the values that pursuing, they're not evil, they're not stupid. They just view excellence as more important than creativity, or they view support as more important than individuality. They're both good things. Everybody would say they're both good. It depends on how you rank them. If we can understand the values that the people we disagree with are pursuing, we can respect them. We're in a better position maybe to find some option that we could both view as satisfactory, right? But we can't do that until we know what we're really pursuing. Mm-hmm.

And this kind of corresponds to my next question, which is about culture and cultural fit. So A lot of times leaders want to hire for culture fit, but how does that differentiate culture fit versus values awareness? And why is culture fit not always aligned with values?

Yeah, I think that sometimes, sometimes the word culture fit gets used too loosely, right? So there's been a criticism, you know, which, which is true in certain, some circumstances, I'm sure, that sometimes when a company says culture fit, What they're doing is recruiting on some superficial similarity, right, that we both play polo or something like that. There's a little bit of academic research that is a bit of that spirit. That's not value alignment, right? And some people would argue it's maybe not even what we really mean when we say organizational culture, right? We could maybe debate that. But The real power comes from being aligned around values, about pulling in the same direction. And as I said, it's really useful to be aligned around values but have different beliefs because that means we can learn from each other and find the best way to get to our common goal. So I think that the concept of culture fit got name over a few years because people thought it was being used sloppily. But even organizations that say, oh no, we Don't use the word culture fit. Select on values, right? I mean, Google is an example that was very public at one point saying, no, culture fit is not how we hire. We hire for Googliness. Googliness is a set of values, right? So what I would say is, look, we should always be disciplined, right? We should always do everything we can to be rigorous about selecting what really matters. And what really matters when it comes to collaboration and making up the benefits that we attribute to a strong culture is being aligned around values.

Beautifully said. Walk us through the 6-part values affirmation approach to resolving conflict. And how does that look inside a company?

Inside a company? OK. I think maybe I'll give you an example of that. And maybe we can use that to think about the various steps. So my chapter on conflict begins with a leader. She was in banking and she was in the internal systems, kind of an internal auditing role, and ran into an intense conflict because she had a great justification for recommended change in how a certain transaction was handled, but it was going to be inconvenient or maybe costly for one department. And they were fighting back and they were kind of viciously in opposition. And her account was really that the values served her in two ways. One is simply that values help us be our best self, right? So sometimes, as we know, everyone has some experience in the space, and for some people it's tragic. Sometimes we're in a conflict, we give in to our worst temptations. We're our worst self instead of our best self, right? So somebody yells at you and you yell back and things can escalate. Somebody says something that hurts you, you say something that hurts them. So the first thing that my informant said was that, look, she thought about, you know, they're saying, oh, you're a troublemaker, you're sloppy in your analysis, you're, you know, they're making their defense. And she's said, is this true? Is this, you know, where am I coming from? And she looked back on her values and you think about your values and you've got much more of the strength of your convictions. So helped her self-regulate. And then I think a second stage that we can use for our values is a search for better options. And in this case, she said, look, we're trying to look at efficiency here. And this is the implication. And I understand what you're saying, you know, in terms of what some of the things it's going to mean for your department. You know, you're right, but I've got this long-run view of efficiency, and here's the account on actually why. Certainly good for the organization, and in a few months it's going to be better for you as well. So she could make an appeal in terms of not just, I want A and you want B, but she can get to really something meaningful in terms of the why. In her case, it was efficiency. So that's this kind of second stage of trying to find a win-win, which we can only do really when we know what we're pursuing. And then that didn't work in this instance. And what she fell back on was she had to represent, you know, it got escalated and she had to represent her position. And her explanation was right back in terms of the fundamental values that she was pursuing, which were consistent with the job that she was asked to do. You know, they put the right person in the right job. And she said, look, you've asked me to be efficient. You've asked me to have the general interest in mind. You've asked me to keep in mind our responsibilities to our clients. That's how we've arrived at this. So you could give this ultimate account that when it comes down to, you know, a question of, of this, these conflicting claims, she's got the most compelling, inspiring account for it, right? So having your values top of mind allows you to self-regulate. It allows you to search for better options because a better option is only better in terms of values. So you can't find better until you know what values are at play. And if all else fails, then it allows you to give an account of yourself that you can be proud of, that a third party is going to be more influential to a third party, and maybe even sometimes your counterparty might have to respect as well.

Wow. Thank you. I, I think that was a really clear explanation of how anybody who's listening who's having a conflict at work can go back to their values. And then, as you said, look for the better option, look for the better opportunity, and be able to defend what their actions are.

Yeah. Yeah.

And by the way, if you take a stake in a position, and then when you look at your value, you say, well, This is not consistent. Change, right? I mean, you— sometimes we make mistakes and it's good to be open. We're also more open to others' arguments when we're connected to our values. So, so we've got that possibility as well. Yeah.

You guided the Museum of Modern Art through your strategic alignment value process. What did that look like for the organization? And what do you think organizations do get wrong when they try to define their values?

Yeah. Yeah, so that work I did with the Museum of Modern Art was one department. It was the education department. I actually work with a lot of museums. So with the Guggenheim, I took the whole organization through a values exercise. But I'd love to talk about the Museum of Modern Art because that was such a fun and learning opportunity as well. So here's the kind of key insight behind what I call the strategic alignment value process, that organizations when they come up with official values, get it wrong in two different ways. And first of all, let me say, what does it mean to get it wrong? Just writing values on your website doesn't improve anything.

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There's no evidence that You put integrity on your website and you're less likely to have regulatory problems, or, you know, you put teamwork and you're less likely to have to— that's not true. But there's a lot of evidence that if you get the values right, then you produce good things. So the truth of the matter is sometimes companies get the values wrong and sometimes they get them right. So we've gotta, we gotta help the organizations we're involved with get it right. So, how does it— first of all, how does it go wrong? It goes wrong in two ways. It goes wrong often because the leaders of the organization think, what values would be useful given our strategy, given what we're trying to do, and just lay those down. And it turns out that you can't force values on somebody, right? So, for us to be influenced by a value, we've got to have some resonance. We've got to say, yeah, this is authentically something we can relate to. Just because the boss says your values are integrity now doesn't change anything. So that's one way the organization goes wrong. You know, the CEO just says, hey, these would be useful values. Let's, let's lay them down. Because it, it doesn't change what's inside people's heads. There's another mistake that some organizations make. And actually, some organizations maybe are more likely to make this in the non-for-profit world. I've seen a museum, I won't mention the name, but that made this mistake, where they think only about what the employees value and not about the strategy or what the mission or what the organization is trying to achieve. Right? So they just think, "These are our values, so they should be the organization's values." But actually, the organization has a purpose, right? It's trying to achieve a mission or a strategy. So actually, sometimes organizations just try and force values top-down. Sometimes they just say, hey, let's let them bubble up from the grassroots. Actually, you should be doing both. You should have an eye to the strategy. And you should also know the values of the people who make up the organization. And then when you've got those two inputs, the next step is to find values that you think serve both. You know, that's kind of a creative exercise. It's actually a lot of fun. I'm in the process of doing that with my own organization right now. So you generate potential values that you say, hey, yeah, you know, we've surveyed or done focus groups or learned about the values of people in the organization. They could get behind this and it would help us achieve our strategy. Right? So we did both those steps with the education department at the Museum of Modern Art. We articulated the strategy as part of that work because they didn't have a standing strategy. And then I took the employees through a workshop that surfaces their values, which I love to do. But if it's a bigger organization, I've got some kind of deep survey questions that can also surface values too. So, so I'd love to take everyone in a global organization through a workshop, but when it's not feasible, we've got a survey approach that works as well. So then we understand these two inputs. We generate, we do this creative step of generating a set of potential values. And then this is sometimes where the leadership gets a little bit hesitant, but I'm going to explain why this is my advice. Then I say, show the values. You know, we got 20 potential statements, value statements. Show them to the organization. Let's find out which ones they like most. Now, I'm not saying you're committing to taking the ones that come out on top, right? So the leadership of the organization has a duty to keep the organization aligned towards achieving its mission or strategy, right? So you don't just abdicate that and say, hey, we'll just vote and the top vote-getters will rise to the top. But you want to give people voice because really it's going to be their values. And if they can't relate and resonate and take some ownership over the values, it's not going to work. In fact, it could even produce some negative statements if they find the values as being alien to them. So find out what they think. And then from that, you get a ranking. And then the top leaders will go back to work and they'll say, oh, we could wordsmith this, or we don't have anything which is about our relationship to this important stakeholder. We're going to elevate something that came up 6th in the ranking. We're going to elevate that to 4th because that's so important to us strategically. So they can do this final work. So what you get is a set of value statements which serve the strategy, as, as all parts of the organization should, but also are aligned with the people who make up the organization. So people can look at it and say, "Hey, yeah, those are not exactly the words I might use to articulate my personal values, but I relate to those." And when that happens, the values of the organization work in the same way that our own values do. They make us more ethical. They inspire us. They lower our stress. So they help us feel authentic. So the idea is top-down and bottom-up at the same time. And also give people voice. When you're doing something really important, like developing a strategy or articulating values for the organization, leadership often thinks it's so important, I've got to do it all myself. The truth of the matter is it's so important you've got to involve other people because you got to bring them along. And including them is really critical in getting their subsequent support.

Yeah. Wow. Thank you for that. And 100%, when I've seen organizations not bring people along, so much happens that's not positive, whether it's communication breakdowns, infighting, people working on different goals instead of the same goal.

Right. And if you give people voice and if you listen to them, even if you don't ultimately agree, most people will come along, right? They'll say, look, we had a process. The process was good. Others, their ideas won out over mine, but I was heard. And most people are going to support under those circumstances. But if they feel they're not included or heard, as you know from your own experience, you're in a really different place.

What is one thing that anybody listening right now should take from the book and apply this week?

I would encourage people to do some work immediately to articulate even a few top values, right? So you could do a ladder like we did. You could do a reflection on something really important. So a great question to surface some values is something like, what was your best day at work in the last year? Why was that day so great? What was present in that day? There was teamwork, there was accomplishment, there was empathy, there was excellence. Whatever it is for you, those will be values. Now, they might not be perfected yet. You know that there's a, there's a process, but something you could do immediately is surface some values with a reflection like that or doing a ladder like the the one that, that we exemplified. And then keep them handy. So put them in the notes on your phone. I've talked about the card in the wallet. I've got a coffee mug that has my values. My students gave it to me. When I'm going into a difficult meeting, I bring that coffee mug so I can be affirmed in my values at the moment. The water jug I take to the gym every morning has my values, because when I need a little bit of motivation at 6:30 in the morning to go to the gym, I check out the values. So keep them handy and try it out. You know, before you go into the meeting, when you're entering on the public transit on the way to your place of employment, check out the values. Think a little bit about the day. When you're feeling a little beaten down, think about the values and think about what you could do to get closer to them. And my hope is, and it's a confident hope, that you get positive things from that little activity and that you're going to want to do even more work to articulate in an even more satisfying way a set of values that you can really turn into a tool. So bring some values to top of mind, keep them handy, and remind yourself of them in the more challenging moments of your day.

Fantastic. Paul, do you have a favorite quote, mantra, verse, poem, family motto, words that continue to inspire you on your mission?

I do. I do. And it's funny, I didn't ever thought about a family motto, but I'll— I can tell you why in a sense it is. So my quote comes from Robert Louis Stevenson, who is a Scottish novelist. He's known for Treasure Island, adventure, things like that. He was also a travel writer. And the quote is, it is better to travel with hope than it is to arrive. It's better to travel with hope than it is to arrive. So, it's about the fact that we're most satisfied, we're experiencing the most joy when we're pursuing what we think is great. And if ever you have the mixed blessing of achieving something you dreamed of, you should celebrate it, but then you should think very quickly, what's the next thing I'm going to pursue? Because it's in pursuit. And the connection, the way it's in a sense a family motto is that my own Scottish father read those books to me when I was a child. So when I came across that quote later in life, it had a real connection to my early socialization and my own values.

It's beautiful. Thank you so much, Paul. This has been one of those conversations that I believe has a true framework that works not just for our lives, but for our businesses. These are things that we can use every day. I love the idea of having whether it's your water jug or your coffee mug or your notes in your phone, or you've printed and laminated a list of your values. There are a lot of questions that you presented and things that you pose that we can all think about and use, and that will actually help us move forward. So again, your book is What Do You Really Stand For? We will have links to that and to you in the show notes. Is there any last moment, last thought that you wanna share with our audience today?

It feels great to put your values into action. So I hope everyone can get a little bit closer to that.

Fantastic. Thank you so much.

Real pleasure.

Thank you to everybody who's watching this episode or listening to it. I love talking about values and I am now going to approach them in a different way and with even more thought than I have before. And this is something I think a lot about, but Uh, your book and your tools are giving me more fodder to even be better at it for myself and for others. And I think that everybody who's listening to this episode is thinking the same thing. So with that, I'll be back again with another amazing guest to share their story, their journey, and some tips and tricks to make your life and your business better every day. Very soon.

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