S E756: Reclaiming Energy: Dr. Mickey Fitch Collins on Psychological Safety at Work

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When we don't have psychological safety, that means we also don't trust each other. We can't be vulnerable. We can't be the whole humans that we are, which is to say that like sometimes we just have shitty days, right? Sometimes we are just not our best selves. Sometimes we just make mistakes. And I think that lack of psychological safety leading to the lack of trust, it means that each one of us needs to wear a mask, that we need to kind of wear a second skin. In that we need to be performing rather than existing.

Step into the world of success with Your Brand Amplified, the ultimate podcast designed to unravel the intricacies of thriving businesses. I'm your host, Anika Jackson, and I'm on a mission to uncover the stories, strategies, and secrets that have propelled entrepreneurs and business leaders to success. I am super thrilled because Mickey and I— Dr. Mickey and I— have been trying trying to get this interview for a very long time. So, you know, thinking about questions that keep founders and leaders up at night— we build great things, our teams start out lean, hungry, everyone wears 5 hats, but as we start to scale, we're hiring managers, and now the culture might feel a little different. People who are energized burn out, best people leave, and we're left wondering, is it me? Is it them? Is it the strategy? It's usually not the strategy, it's how the strategy gets executed, and that falls on leadership. So today I am delighted to bring Mickey Fitch Collins, PhD, a leadership facilitator and learning strategist at LearnIt, who's worked with millions of professionals across Fortune 500 startups, companies, and everything in between. Mickey's research focused on middle manager self-efficacy. Basically what makes leaders feel confident and effective. And she's seen firsthand what happens when you invest in that and what happens when you don't. So we're going to dive into how to build leaders who actually lead, not just manage, how to spot energy drain, and also how Mickey's days as a teenage pro bass fisherman taught her more about leadership than any MBA ever could. She's also a podcaster, so we'll have to weave that in. Mickey, So happy that we're here today. It's been years. I mean, it's been at least 6 months, if not more.

At least. Yeah. I think we started talking last fall sometime. And, uh, here we are in the middle of 2026. So yeah, thank you so much for having me. I'm, I'm super excited and hopefully the internet gods stay in our favor today for this conversation.

So yes, I am very much hoping so. So let's talk about, because that is an interesting hook, right? From fishing to facilitation. Talk about your bass fishing background because it's not usual to hear about that background.

Yeah.

It's not usual to hear that background as a woman who is a pro at a young age and also in the leadership journey.

Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah.

The fishing to facilitation, bass fishing to breakout rooms, like it's a kind of an interesting story. But yeah, I started, I mean, is some of my earliest memories were fishing. I, I was lucky to grow up with a little pond behind my house and My parents kind of jokingly said, well, I don't know if it was a joke or not, but that as soon as they knew that I wouldn't drown myself, I could go out there fishing by myself, right? But I, you know, I've always loved to fish and I got connected, you know, it was just kind of one of those, like, I had the passion and the interest and the know-how for fishing. And also for whatever reason, the ability to speak well with other people, instruct, all this sort of stuff. And I got connected in with a community of people when I was a young teenager that, you know, some people might see these things over the wintertime. A lot of cities have these different expos and stuff. Basically, they're trying to get fishermen and hunters and stuff to like spend their money and like, how do we survive the long winters? But I grew up in the Chicago area where there are long winters.

Wow.

And I started going to these expo shows and just kind of, you know, wandering around and met some people. And people realized, hey, you know, this, this kid, this girl has knowledge and also can speak really well about fishing. And like, what if we gave her a platform to be able to do that? And this was in the mid-'90s. This is about 30 years ago. And I started out kind of doing kids fishing seminars and for young girls because of course, like the fishing industry is very male dominated and mostly Southern and, you know, started kind of what can I do to get more girls? What can I get, you know, my peers as teenagers into the sport? And I loved bass fishing. And, you know, some people might know you turn on ESPN or, you know, something like that and you might see some of these tournaments and stuff. And I got connected into that community, which was very different 30 years ago in some regards than it is now, but connected into that community and went from doing these things from local parks and recreation sort of departments and stuff. And I got picked up by national brands. At what point? At the height of my bass fishing professional career, I had over 30 sponsors. I was, you know, new boat, motor every year. I was traveling around to all these different lakes because I was under 18. I couldn't actually fish in any of the tournaments because you had to be a legal adult. But I would go, and I would do practice fishing and kind of help with some of the other folks and then do all these seminars. And this was before the world of podcasting, but I was doing radio shows, TV shows, seminars all the time. All of those expos, I was every single weekend during the winter months was speaking somewhere. I had a syndicated magazine article. I was doing newspaper, you know, all this sort of stuff. Very, very different life than your average teenager. And, you know, was traveling a lot and loved it. I mean, And it was fantastic. I tell people all the time is, is one of people ask me, why do you not get scared when you're doing public speaking? And I said, well, one of my first audiences when I was 14, 15 years old was a room of several hundred men, multiple times my age that I'm up there. And again, mid-'90s, I'm up there with a slide carousel clicking through my slides and doing, doing this, you know, seminar. And I said, that was one of my first speaking experiences. And, you know, you just jump into the cage and just go for it. And that was very much formative to me, not just with public speaking, but the recognition that everything that I've done in my career has been about helping other people learn and grow. And it started with bass fishing. Unfortunately, I had to give it up, slash gave it up somewhat willingly when I went to college because as it turns out, college professors, they want you to be in class. I was traveling a lot when I was in high school and that was— that worked well for my high school. But, you know, the college professors, they want your butt to be in the seat. They want you to be there. So I let go of it when I was in my, my early 20s. But so much of what I do even now, 30 years later, I can call back to those days of whether it's, it's public speaking, whether it's writing, whether it's marketing and sales, you know, being a leader, being a role model to other people. So much of that started when I was a teenager in professional bass fishing.

That's an origin story you don't usually hear. The fact that you were given all these opportunities, 30 sponsors, that's incredible, and that you were able to gain the skill set that is something we all need as adults at that age. I'm sure that helped you in your university years and beyond because you obviously, you, you went ahead and got your PhD. Can you talk a little bit about that? And then how did you morph from university and research into figuring out what you were going to do for the rest of your life or for this point in life, right?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I, you know, like a fair number of people went, you know, high school to college. And I jokingly say I loved my college years so much I never left. I got a bachelor's degree in psychology. I recognized I love working with people and helping support people. I was a student leader in college and loved that work so much that I went on and got my master's degree in counseling and student personnel. So basically like higher education administration and student Student Counseling and worked on the student support side of colleges and universities for the next 20 years or so. And that's why I say, I jokingly said, I never left college because I continued to work for colleges and universities and loved that work of being able to help remove obstacles and barriers for students that were navigating the college environment, particularly first-generation students that didn't have anybody else in their college or their, or in their families that had pursued higher education before. And like a lot of people, when the pandemic hit, I started kind of asking questions of myself of, what am I doing? And is this what I want to be doing? And I had decided in 2015 to pursue my PhD in leadership in higher education. I knew I'm one of those weird ones. I knew that I always wanted to get a terminal degree. I love learning. I love school. I push my glasses up here, right? And I had— here I was. I had this terminal degree. I was working in a C-suite position in the leadership of the university I was working at. Was, relatively speaking, you could look at it and say I was at a new height in my career. And at the same time, my wife and I had just gotten married. I was in— I had turned 40. We had our first child. All of that stuff happened and the pandemic within those couple of years.

Oh my gosh.

And yeah, wow was right. And I realized I I don't want to be doing this anymore. Because what got me into that work of helping students succeed and opening doors and pathways, I was finding myself, I was spending most of my days behind closed doors fighting with my colleagues for resources and not really doing anything to help students succeed anymore. And that was very scary because I said, well, this is all I've ever done. I don't know, what else do I do? Right? And so I started going through, I mean, I call it a discernment process of like, well, you know, kind of those values exercises. What do I value? What do I like? What are the things that charge my batteries? What are the things that discharge my batteries? And what I realized through all of this was I love helping people learn and grow. And that goes all the way back to the professional fishing days. That goes all the way back to being a student leader. And that was the thing that wove through, you know, I got the chance to supervise and do some training and do some college-level teaching. And that was always the stuff that I was like, I love this stuff. So then naturally I said, oh my gosh, there's this whole world of corporate learning and development where people help other people learn. And so that's how I tell people is I, I, my job, the work that I do at Learnit is my job is to help other people get better at their jobs. And most of what I do, about 95% of what I do is virtual workshops and the other 5% I get to travel and do things in person. But when I'm in those 2 or 3-hour workshops with people, it is— I am my best version of my professional self in those moments because I'm helping other people get better at their work. And you know this, I know this, work is one of the greatest sources of stress and can also be one of the greatest sources of joy for people.

Yeah, 100%. 100%. And I am in the world of academia, so I'm familiar with some of the things that you're talking about, although I'm newer to it. I think as you were kind of moving on was when I was getting into becoming a professor, and it is a great joy, and there's also parts that you don't like, right? But I also love the thought and the job that I get to do of helping other people learn and learn how to learn, because I think that's one of the things that hopefully, if we're being taught correctly, is what we're learning, right? It's to have that inquisitive mind and that brain, and the fact that you can now apply it to a completely different area. Was there, because you had —this sense of self. You had already done so much speaking. You'd already been a facilitator. But was shifting to this industry difficult for you? Was there some stumbling blocks? Was there a little bit of imposter syndrome?

Yes, yes, yes, and yes. Yeah. I had made— when I knew that I needed to leave higher ed, I made a soft exit. And so I went from working for colleges and universities proper to I I worked for an edtech organization, a subsidiary of Wiley Publishing. And so I was still working in higher ed, but I was working for a technology company and I loved that work. I love the organization. I just wasn't the right fit for the job. I just didn't have the passion for it. So I did that kind of soft landing, soft exit, and realized again, you know, of like, okay, I'm making my exit. But I really do need to exit altogether. And it was challenging because when I— and I still feel this way, but I'm in my second career, I'm in my mid-40s and I'm in my second career just with 5 years of experience, just coming up on 5 years of experience in this role and in this industry. And so there is that like that starting over thing because on paper, I look like a person who only has 5 years experience, but in real life, you know, I have 25 years experience and there's, there's an incredible amount of skill. I mean, I always tell folks this is that, you know, working in higher education, especially on the student success side of the house, you build an absolute bevy of skill sets of lots of different things. And so my transferable skill set to the world of corporate learning and development has been pretty seamless, but I also realized I had a lot of unlearning that I needed to do both around process, around speed. As you know, or maybe are experiencing, higher education can be right at the just about frozen mark of molasses, you know, in terms of speed. And that is not how business and organizations work, you know. And so I had some unlearning that I needed to do. I still am doing some of that. And I still find that at times, right, you know, when people will ask, oh, well, how long have you been in the field? Right. And I say, well, just, you know, a handful of years. Oh, and I'm like, yeah, but yeah. And, and so that is challenging for me at times of not having that level of years of credentialing, right? Like that tenure that people are looking for. The imposter syndrome thing hasn't been In fact, I would say it really hasn't been much of an issue at all for me because what I find can be so helpful is when I am facilitating workshops on change management or I'm facilitating on coaching and supervision and all of this, I have more stories than I can tell than I have time for. And that's one of those things that learners in our workshops, I say, oh my gosh, Miki's stories are so real life, you know, because I tell people, here's the ways that I've screwed up and here's the ways that This has gone poorly, not just in a, let me tell you about this theory about how to change. Like, let me tell you about some really botched change management things I've been through that I've facilitated or I've experienced.

So, yeah, the humanity. This is something that is, is definitely coming up a lot because we are in an age of technological transformation, if you will. We're still waiting to see how it plays out, but the humanity, the authenticity is something that every conversation I'm having, no matter what people's industries are, is really present and something that's even more significant. So the fact that you have all these stories to share is 100% a bonus. The fact that you're willing to share them is a bonus to your clients.

Yeah, I mean, that, that phrase, I'm sure you've heard this before, but I tell people this all the time is, you know, that's the— we make decisions with data, but we make meaning with stories, right? And our ability as humans to tell stories to each other that it's a way in which it helps us navigate. It's the way in which it helps us normalize and cope. It helps us reframe the way that we think and we operate. And I mean, I think our speaking skills, our presence skills, our ability to storytell, I mean, these are skills that are just as important as those critical thinking skills and problem-solving skills that we all need to be building in the age of AI.

Yeah, absolutely. LearnIt has reached over 2 million professionals. What's the most common breakdown that you see when people are scaling from 5 to 15 to 50 people to 500?

Yeah, I think one of the greatest challenges that I see that we experience is that people wait to develop their leaders, that there's this, we'll get there when things are a little bit more stable, we'll get there when we've reached this particular mark. And so, what they do is they do leadership development in a reactionary way instead of proactively doing this. Well, maybe next year we'll set aside some money to do this. Maybe next year we'll— and then people put it off because there's always a need for capital investment for something else or whatever that might be. The organizations that develop their leaders best are the ones that start first by thinking, who are my emerging leaders? People who don't yet have the title, who don't yet have the responsibility, but they're rising in the organization. They're the rising stars. What are the skill sets that we think that those folks need? And that's our sweet spot as an organization, is partnering, being these strategic partners to organizations to say, okay, here's this set of skill sets, let's build this cohort experience. I mean, I spend most of my time now in cohort programs of people that are emerging leaders in organizations because it's so much easier to help proactively develop these skill sets in people rather than trying to undo or be in this reactionary sort of, oh, my team doesn't know how to deal with conflict. Can you come in and help them figure out how to deal with conflict? Or people don't know how to communicate. Can you help them? Yeah, we do that. Absolutely. But it's much easier if we can be in a skill-building place rather than a skill unlearning and relearning place. That's one of my greatest pieces of advice and guidance that I offer to folks is, as you're thinking about this, Learning and skill development, this needs to be part of your business strategy because it is strategic. It's not an add-on. It's not a nice-to-have. It's a must-have. I mean, our slogan is that companies grow when their people do. And a lot of people think, oh, well, the, you know, our products are what does this, or our relationships. Yeah. And how do you think that that came to be? Yeah, it's from your people.

That's a big one. What are the signs for a company that are, you know, if they haven't baked this in from the beginning where they should be going, ooh, I can see where we're headed. I can see that we may have some issues. So maybe I need to take a step back and start training people to actually lead and manage.

Yeah, there's a couple of things. Number one, if it is not actually, if you're not spending money and you're not spending time on it, that's sign number one, right? So if it's just not there. That's sign number one. I think the other thing is, is the people who are creators and founders and leaders of organizations when they begin, it's not usually because they're great managers and supervisors and coaches. It's because they had a concept or an idea about a product or a service or an offering that doesn't translate to I work well with people, right? You know, and when we think about growing organizations, there is a skill set. And I tell people this all the time, is like, there are people that are— it's not that they're not meant to be leaders of other people, but this is a skill set to be built. It is challenging. And we know this because of friendships. We know this because of partnership. We know this because of parenthood. Managing and coaching and working with other people is a whole entire skill set in and of itself. And just because you're good with finances and you came into the organization as the finance person, or you had the great idea and you became the CEO who built the thing, doesn't mean that you actually know how to create a vision, that you know how to catalyze your people around an idea, that you know how to identify where gaps and issues are. So I think that recognition of one person can't be all things, and this is why we need to kind of stratify our organization, I think is part of it. I think the other piece too is recognizing that, and I've, you know, obviously I'm a bit biased in the position I serve within LearnIt, but is sometimes the very best people to do this are the people who are outside your organization. Because I come in as an outsider and I can see some of these things and I also come with a level of credibility and authority because I am coming from outside the organization, right? My vested interest is truly serving that client. It's not just serving the bottom line. We try to do both of those things, right, is to help, you know, serve the bottom line. So I think part of it, I think the other thing too, naturally, is that people discover there are problems and then they are trying to find a solution provider, right? So how, you know, we have a problem with conflict. Okay, we need to help solve for that. We need somebody to come in and teach and mediate, to build skills and mediate, or we just don't have somebody internally that is a strong speaker and teacher, right? And so we need someone to come in and do that. So that's where, I mean, we really, our goal as an organization is to come in and serve as a partner. I don't love saying, oh, clients and customers, because it is a partnership, right? It is strategic of what are we doing to actually help your business grow, not just, okay, let's sit a bunch of people in some seats and tell them how to become better individuals. No, how does that actually translate to what the business is trying to do, what the business's goals are? Learning is just as important as any other skill set that, you know, an employee would have.

I appreciate that you're noting you're a partner And that it is easier because no matter what business you're in, if you're in marketing, if you're in PR, you still need to have other people who help you handle these things sometimes. Other people to analyze where you are in your business. You might be really, like you said, you might be really, really good at something, but that doesn't mean you have the business acumen and you know how to hire the right people and be strategic in those areas. And that is truly what leads to the growth of small businesses and gets us to the upper echelons. So it's so important because I know I joke around a lot with other people who have podcasts or other people who are in this digital marketing area about, you know, we are the cobbler with no shoes because we don't have time. I'm like, don't look at the stuff that I'm doing because I don't have time to do my own stuff. I have to find the right hire, right, to do that.

Well, and when we bring people in and that's— I mean, I, you know, folks ask me, oh, would you want to do learning and development work inside of an organization. And I don't say no, I don't know. I've only worked outside of organizations. But what I do know is what I value about doing this is that objectivity, right, is, is being able to come in and say, I— here is what I see and here's what I'm hearing and here's what I'm feeling. And I don't sit with you every single day. And there's an advantage and a disadvantage to that. But I think there's more advantage to that, right? Because it's like I can come in and serve a very niche sort of need or a moment in time, and I don't carry that same level of internal struggles that sometimes organizations, you know, have. And there's a lot of value to that. And sometimes, you know, I mean, everybody's having this conversation too, but I mean, you know, that conversation of generalists versus specialists, sometimes it is good to have some people who serve as generalists and some folks that are coming in as specialists to say like, I'm here to be in this consultative sort of fashion for you.

Yeah. Yeah. Such an important thing. I feel like there are advantages and disadvantages to being a generalist and a specialist, right? I think a lot of businesses need the people who have a lot of transferable skills and know, or a little bit about a lot of things, but then you also do need the subject matter experts to come in. So key. Yeah. And let's talk about burnout, right? Energy, not time. Why do people get exhausted? Why does leadership drain energy differently than other tasks? What's the difference and how do you help people manage this?

Yeah, you know, ironically love talking about this, this topic. And again, I've been there and I've done that. And, and both from my, my personal experience as well as that, that was my dissertation research was on leadership self-efficacy. And what came forward from that is about the experiences of isolation and burnout and loneliness, particularly that middle managers in organizations experience. And I, unfortunately, at the time when I was finishing my dissertation, I was also that person. I was a middle manager who was burnt out. But why does it happen? I mean, particularly for folks that are in leadership positions is because they are the— it's the push-pull of leadership. There is somebody above them that they are responsible to. And are getting direction, hopefully, from, and they're also responsible for being an advocate and a support to the people below them. And just like Gumby, right, you can only stretch so far. You know, you can only, you know, which, which quote unquote master do you serve at what point? And so there's that piece, that push-pull piece. There's also, for a lot of people, the challenge of going from being a peer, right? And the peer-to-peer leadership, and then— or peer-to-peer colleagueship— and then you become a manager, right? And so it's like all of a sudden, you know, here I had this group of 10 or 12 people that I worked with all the time. Maybe we go out for beer and pizza, you know, every Friday or whatever it is. And now all of a sudden I'm all by myself. Maybe I have a peer who's also a director or a manager, but they direct another area, they direct another unit or department. And so now I don't have this experience of, is this normal? Is this a good idea? Can I bounce this off of you? And there's all of these kind of feelings of, of, I mean, the imposter syndrome pieces, the isolation pieces, the loneliness pieces, the operating in silos. So there's that piece that's part of it too, right? Kind of this like inner game. The other piece that I looked at in particular with my dissertation research that I continue to talk about all the time with folks is that leaders are oftentimes— organizations look at them and say, well, you're in a leadership position, and so you don't really need growth and development. And yeah, supervision means getting out of your way and just let you do your job. Now, both of those sound like interesting ideas. They sound like OK ideas., but the reality is, is that human beings need growth and development at all stages of work and all stages of life, right? Like neuroplasticity is a thing. We're constantly growing and changing and rewiring how we operate. And similarly, supervision needs to continue to happen as well. People need coaching and guidance, whether you are the CEO of an organization or you are a frontline, early in your career sort of person. And so what happens is oftentimes, you know, again, whether it's a middle manager, senior level, C-suite, people are abandoned, right? Oh, here's the annual compliance training. I gave you training, right? See, right here, you got some training. Well, what about things that help me grow and develop? What about having a supervisor who's helping provide me feedback and helping me grow and challenging me? Oh, well, you don't need that, right? Because you got to this point, you must have it all figured out. Out, right? And again, that further reinforces experiences of burnout, experiences of isolation, loneliness, et cetera. I think the fourth piece that I would bring into all of this too is just this concept of self-efficacy, right? Do I actually think that I can complete the task? Do I think that I have the skills to do it? And I think in— I, I hate to use this phrase, but in today's economy, in today's world, right? We are becoming more and more challenged with the idea that, can I actually do this? Because this, whatever this is, is so much bigger, it's so much deeper, it's so much more complex than it ever has before. You throw in the AI piece in there, and then we as humans are starting to say, okay, well, what's my value proposition now? What do I bring that is different? How do I manage this? Am I AI-ing myself out of a job in the next couple of years? Maybe, right? So there's all sorts of things. I mean, burnout is real. It is very real. I mean, there's, there's health components to that. I mean, we could continue going down this, but there's, there's a lot of different things. I mean, I think the World Health Organization, by the way, classifies this as a health concern. The World Health Organization, right? Burnout is an actual classified issue for the World Health Organization now. That says something. And it's linked back to many, many different— I mean, there's, there's a number of different research reports that actually caught— that names workplace stress as one of the highest concerns or issues related to major health concerns and/or death related to workplace stress.

That's huge. And I mean, I just have to take a moment because that's very sobering. I didn't even know that was part of the World Health Organization. But we do hear examples of people being so stressed that there are poor mental health outcomes from situations. Absolutely. So it's easy to talk about this from the outsider perspective, right? But then how do you actually lead the change management inside an organization to get them to add in the right kinds of trainings to make sure they're assessing people appropriately and that they're giving them time to create this value and not get to burnout?

Yeah, there's a couple of core things that I think are very essential in all of this. And I think it all to me starts with psychological safety, right? And is psychological safety. I mean, the definition of it, right, is, is my ability for me to share that I am unsure, that I've made a mistake or a misstep, or share my opinions and perspectives without a fear of repercussion. In competitive organizations, which is 99% of the organizations out there, even if you work for municipal government or nonprofit, you're still competing against not using your services, right? There is this misnomer that we can't share mistakes, that we can't share missteps, that we can't share a lack of certainty or whatever that is. When we don't have psychological safety, that means we also don't trust each other. We can't be vulnerable. We can't be the whole humans that we are, which is to say that like sometimes we just have shitty days, right? Sometimes we are just not our best selves. Sometimes we just make mistakes. And I think that lack of psychological safety leading to the lack of trust, it means that each one of us needs to wear a mask, that we need to kind of wear a second skin, that we need to be performing rather than existing, right? We need to be putting on a show rather than being who we are. And I think all of those things, and that's exhausting, right? It's like, oh, here's my persona at the workplace. Or people that are constantly, I mean, I call it the busy Olympics, right? People that are just busy, busy, busy, busy, but not actually doing value, providing value. So I think the recognition, I mean, I encourage organizations all the time, do you actually, asking leadership, asking middle managers, do you actually have spaces where people can be honest? Can a frontline employee be a leader and have it be received? It doesn't mean that it needs to be done, but can it be received and received well? Do people actually give each other feedback? And I don't mean like, oh, you're so awesome. Right. Outperforming. Yeah. Real actionable feedback, positive stuff and critical stuff. Can people all the way from, again, frontlines to the top-level leadership say, 'Whoops, I made a mistake.' I think most organizations would say no. I think most people would say no. And I think, again, I mean, I think part of it is this kind of Instagram-ready culture that we exist in. I think that translates into the business world too, is look at how amazing everything is. Look at our growth. Look at our this. Well, yeah, it's because you have this condition in which people are working 18 hours a day to maintain that false reality. You're burning your people out, right? And to what end? So I think the questions for most organizations first to address is, what's our temperature around psychological safety? And if you can't directly and honestly answer that, that's when you know you have issues.

Yeah. Wow. It's so interesting to think about all of these topics because this isn't a normal kind of conversation that I have, right? Teaching people how to be better managers or leaders. We have conversations on this podcast about values, and people have done a lot of research into that, or gender equity in the workplace, or these topics. But this is such a key core topic, and I do think you mentioned AI. We also have the environment of everybody was working in offices, then everything went virtual, and then now there's hybrid. Some people are demanding work from office, right? Some people are still allowing people to work from home or remotely. So, does that also play into these issues that you see with creating really strong middle managers who know how to lead, who still feel agency, but also pride in the company and are still given the tools or are start to be given the tools to be better?

Yeah, I mean, I kind of the left hand, right hand when I hear you describe that is, yeah, absolutely. The left hand is the psychological safety piece. The, the right hand is the trust piece. And I recognize that I have— I'm fortunate and I have privilege, absolutely. I also, I mean, my family and I have designed a life in terms of our work that is centered around our kids and our home life and all this sort of stuff, and my wife and I are both lucky that we have created— I don't, I shouldn't even say lucky. We have designed a life where we both work remotely. I really struggle, and I mean, there are certainly obviously operations and jobs, yeah, you can't do that stuff remotely, absolutely. But I really struggle with organizations that hold people hostage to an 8-hour workday that happens in this time frame to this time frame, and this is where you do your work, and you must be in this building to do this work, especially especially when we have evidence over the last 6 years that showed that you were able to do that differently. It is so challenging for me to think about businesses and organizations that— I mean, it's a control thing, right? Which is trust. Mm-hmm. We need to control people. I need to be able to see you, and I need to be able to literally or figuratively watch over your shoulder. Even remote organizations that have these background things that are like looking at people clicking and what are they clicking on and how long they do. And I think this is what you're investing in. This is what you're investing your time and energy in. You're not investing in the time and energy of the value creation, the difference-making that people are doing, the serving, fulfilling a mission, the helping make the world a better place, whatever it is, right? That has, I mean, again, the psychological safety stuff and the trust that has so much to do with, can we even begin to scratch the surface of, let's talk about how to manage other people's performance, let's talk about how to be better delegators, how to deal with conflict. If you're not valuing the whole human being that's in front of you, which means people living where they want to live, people working in the ways that they want to work. I mean, I, you know, Every organization I've been a part of, there's people that are like, man, you know, I just am not a morning person. Yeah, well, you will work from 8:00 AM to 5:00 PM. Okay. So they're in a physical space that you've told them they need to perform that in. And you know what they're doing? They're sitting at their desk drooling on their keyboard because they can't think and they can't make any decisions. Why not let them work differently? Right? You know, I mean, it just, it's nonsense. It's the thing I keep thinking about. I've heard this on a couple of podcasts recently as I've been listening to is As a business, would you go back to saying, oh, you know what, I just want more horses instead of electricity? It's better for us to just have more horses. No, right? Like, I don't think many organizations— so why are you changing the way in which people work, right? Again, when in the face of the loads and loads of research that we have out there that says that when people feel like their whole personhood is cared for, Those are the people who have the highest level of motivation, the highest level of engagement, the organizations that have the lowest turnover, highest profitability. I mean, all of these numbers, super obvious. Take care of the whole human being and your organization will be successful. Why would we do it any other way? Yeah, good question.

Great question. And speaking about podcasts, how did Learn It Lounge come about?

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Thank you for calling that out. Yeah, so I get to host— I— this is the best part, I get to be on podcasts and I also get to host podcasts. So the organization that I work for, Learn It, our CEO Damon Lemby has the Learn It All podcast, which is the same name of his book that he wrote a couple years ago. And he, on his podcast, he really focuses interviews on, you know, high-performing individuals and organizations and that kind of sector. And we started having a conversation of, well, what if we had a podcast that is both for and from the audience that we work with, which is learning and development folks within their organizations? And so this conversation started, and Damon said, "You're hosting it, Micki." And so, and what's funny is it was always on my bucket list to be on podcasts. I had never entertained running a podcast, but we just recently celebrated 1 year and 50-some episodes And it's fantastic because I— some of the conversations are with folks that are partner organizations to ours, and some are folks that work in organizational development and human resources and talent development. And I mean, number one, and I'm sure you experience this too, is it gives you a great in to have conversations with amazing people across the world that I never otherwise maybe would have met. But it also helps glean, you know, ideas and networks and projects. I mean, I'm doing some really cool things with people and I've gotten to be advanced readers to books and be part of different communities and getting connected with different organizations to help solve problems together. Podcasting, as you know, I mean, podcasting is— it is like AI. It is one of the biggest democratizers of learning and communication and networks. That is out there. And I'm so grateful to have the podcast. And it obviously is a great way for us to tell the story of those organizations. What I love about it is we don't use it as a commercial platform for LearnIt, right? It's not like, oh, tell us about your partnership with us. No, it's tell us about the problems that you're solving and how do you do that stuff? Because the hope is that that helps other people solve problems as well.

Yeah. Yeah, it always does. Just appreciate the many, many key points you've brought to our conversation. I appreciate the way that you and your wife designed your life. I think that's what everybody should be thinking about when they're thinking about their life design. I appreciate the work that you are putting in to helping other people become better managers and leaders. And I know we're, we had some technical difficulties, so we're just running a little short. I would love to have you back on another time. I love that. Okay, amazing. And I will, of course, link into the show notes, Learn It and the Learn It Lounge. Just curious, what's next for you, Mickey?

It's a great question. Yeah, it would be easy for me to say continue doing what the things that I'm doing. But, you know, I just recently, you know, those birthdays that have 5s and 0s at the end of them, I just had a 5 birthday. And, you know, I'm at this kind of, okay, what's— I'm on the other side of my working, what I think is going to be my working years. And so I'm trying to I'm trying to figure out what this next chapter is for me. And I think for me, what I really want to be doing, where I get a lot of energy, is I've started doing some coaching. I love doing more speaking. And so as much as I can kind of bring some of that stuff in, I am in so much more of a giving place in my life and wanting to help other people rather than earning and acquiring myself, you know? So we'll see. We'll see what's next.

Okay. Amazing. And do you have a favorite quote, mantra, verse, poem, family motto?

You know, there is— I live in northern Wisconsin, in the upper Midwest. We have the coffee chain Caribou Coffee. I'm probably butchering this slogan, but it's something about like, life is short, drink more coffee or something of that sort. I love coffee. So that's, you know, just kind of that idea of life is short and kind of be awake for it and be part of it. Yeah, very cool.

Well, I'm so glad that we made it today. Thank you so much, Miki, for being on the show. Thank you to everybody who's watching this episode, who's listening to it. I love the idea of really baking in from the beginning of your organization, what will it look like when you have people who you need to scale up, who need to be not just middle managers, but leaders? How do you bake that into your values? How do you bake learning opportunities and the kind of people that you want to be there with you on this journey? And that's exactly what you are doing. Mickey, and something for us all to think about. So thank you again for being on Your Brand Amplified. Thank you to everybody who's watching this episode or listening to it. I'll be back again with another amazing guest to share their story and their journey very shortly. Thanks for listening or watching to this episode of Your Brand Amplified. Don't forget to leave us a rating or review on your favorite podcast listening platform. And if you want to learn more, Check us out at yourbrandamplified.com.