S E759: Marketing Authenticity: Deanna Dolecki and Ashley Ruggeri on Scaling Blue Duck Agency

If somebody is exhibiting qualities or making decisions or getting too comfortable or whatever, that is addressed, I would say, 9 out of 10 times. Like I said, I haven't been always perfect, but 9 out of 10 times right away. And I tell people that, like, you know, just you have to expect there's good and bad with that. Like, if there's something going on, I'm going to share it right away. We're going to have a conversation about it. I'm also going to tell you when you're amazing and doing a great job.

Being in an agency is fun, and being in an agency like this, we have really great culture and really great people, that is exceptionally fun. And I feel like at the end of the day, like, we're not curing a disease, we're doing marketing, so you should have fun in the day-to-day. And of course we have to perform and deliver for our clients, but like, you can have a little fun along the way doing it. It's, it's better for that.

Step into the world of success with Your Brand Amplified, the ultimate podcast designed to unravel the intricacies of thriving businesses. I'm your host, Anika Jackson, and I'm on a mission to uncover the stories, strategies, and secrets that have propelled entrepreneurs and business leaders to success. One of the things I love about being on with other podcasters is we can laugh about it when technology fails and the challenge to get here where we've been wanting to go. And we've all been looking forward to having this interview. So let's cross our fingers, knock on wood, all the things that this works. One of my favorite things about podcasting is watching people build businesses and communities around radical authenticity, which is what I'm sharing with you right now. And today I have the delight of speaking to two women who are doing exactly that. Dina Dulicki is the president of Blue Duck Agency, a boutique marketing firm that spent 20+ years building brands, and she's built a reputation for something that's actually pretty rare in the agency world. She hires for intangibles. She leads with straight talk and she's not afraid to show you who she really is. Her co-host of the podcast that they have under Blue Duck Agency is Ashley Ruggieri, an account director and marketing strategist with 15 years under her belt. Together they run Ducks Unplugged, a podcast that exactly what the name promises, two marketing minds, no scripts, just real conversation about work, life, culture. And chaos. They've turned authenticity into a business strategy, and I wanna dig into exactly how they're doing it, plus all the stuff they talk about on their own show that makes people want to book a call with their agency. Deanna and Ashley, we made it through the intro.

We did. So far so good.

So let's talk about Blue Duck Agency. What's the origin story? How did you end up as president? And was this, uh, an area that you both saw yourselves in when you started your careers?

So the agency, yes. The podcast, no.

Correct.

But we'll get to that. And so I've always been, for the most part, in the marketing space. I wanted to start when I was younger being a copywriter, and I got an internship at an agency doing that and then quickly learned I don't want to write when somebody tells me to write. I want to write when I want to write. But I fell in love with the culture and the vibe and the work that was going through the agency. So at that point I was in. And so I've always been in that space from day one of my career. And I've only, for the most part, worked on the agency side where Ashley's a little bit different in that sense. So I've been with, with Blue Duck Agency for, I think, 11 years now. And when I joined, the agency was at a point where the owner had started it several years before and she got it to a point where she's like, I either need to double down, hire somebody to, to get this this company in a place where she likes to say a real company. It was before, but like, you know, ready to scale and have a structure in place that can scale, get, make it more, you know, benefits in place, things like that. Or I got to scale back and I just need to keep it nice little pod and just keep it that. She obviously went in the direction of scaling and growing. So at that point I joined and the rest is history. So we've done really well, fortunately, and we've morphed and pivoted a lot over the years as agencies have to do. But it's been a lot of fun. A lot of fun.

Amazing. Ashley, what about your journey?

So I started on the internal side of the house. I went to business school. Marketing was always kind of on my mind. And then when I graduated, it was the recession. So I got whatever job I could find, and it happened to be in the extremely exciting world of banking. And from there, I moved to another extremely exciting world of energy efficiency. And always was, you know, interested in the marketing and working with clients, but eventually decided I needed to move to the other side of the house, be agency side, client facing. And I got the opportunity to interview with Blue Duck Agency and Diana, and I'll rip the bandaid off of this story. She almost didn't hire me because she thought I was a little bit too boring, but coming from banking and energy efficiency, they're way more buttoned up, you know, government and financial sector jobs. And I just was very serious about wanting to get this job at her agency. So I have been here for 7 years now. I am basically living in the area of gray. That's what I was hired for. So developing new business, new clients, client retention, testing and trying anything out for our agency. If there is a campaign or a product or something that we want to do, I'm figuring out how we do that, how we try it, how we evaluate it to see what works. And I love that because I love learning, trying new things, and always being able to, you know, innovate and get ahead of things. So the podcast, which we'll talk about, kind of came out of that testing and trying and just doing something new for ourselves as an agency too.

That's so brilliant though, because not a lot of agencies hire somebody who can live in the gray, who can test, who iterate, who can try things out, because I feel like so much of agency land is the bottom line, right? Making sure that every single thing has a return from the beginning. And you also brought that unique perspective of working in-house, even though they were for, you know, pretty conservative types of very regulated, we could say.

Yeah. Little different here. Yeah. Yeah.

But, Tiana, you obviously saw something in Ashley that said, I want to give this chance.

Yeah, she, you know, in fairness, she showed up to the interview buttoned up and doing what she was supposed to do. But when you work in a virtual, we're 100% virtual. Our agency is 100% virtual, always has been from day one. And so the chemistry, the culture, the way everybody works and interacts with each other is really, really important. We're a boutique agency, so we're small and mighty. So every single person and how they fit into the, the puzzle matters. And, you know, you gotta be able to loosen up with clients and stuff. So, you know, I I saw so much in her. She's so smart and so talented, but wanted to make sure that the sort of social personality aspect of it. So, you know, in that setting, instead of writing somebody off, it's actually the second time I've done it in my career and I was wrong both times. So we had her go to lunch and just brought a couple of other people. And I mean, please, like she had us laughing and telling stories and she's incredible. So, So yeah, so it almost didn't happen, but fortunately it did.

And you have the advantage of even though being virtual, being close enough in proximity that you could go to lunch. You know, I accidentally started the PR firm is how I always share the story during the pandemic. I was doing work for other people's agencies and then I kept getting client referrals of my own and obviously it was going to be completely virtual because that was the time everyone was, right? But you were virtual before it became a thing. And so, you learned some of these things that I think I had to certainly, and other people had to learn the hard way, which is how do you make sure somebody is the right fit when you have an all virtual environment? What kind of signals, right? And how do you make sure everybody works? Because people can look great on paper, they can be very charismatic, but that doesn't always mean they're going to deliver what you need to, and they're not, you know, they might show that they're in the culture of the agency, but they might not actually be. So I'd love to hear a little bit about that.

I have a sort of a weird way of hiring and interviewing people, and I learned it very early in my career from somebody else, so I take no credit for it. But when I'm interviewing somebody, right, it's— it is what you said at the beginning. It's about the intangibles for me. I mean, I can read your resume. I can see you didn't get an interview if you don't have on paper what you need to have on paper, right? So I don't want to talk about that necessarily. I want to talk about your intention. I want to learn like why you made decisions the way that you did, how you got where you were going, if you left jobs, right? What you choose to highlight, successes. I try to throw a couple of pushbacks in there and see how you handle tougher questions, right? I'm very direct and, you know, obviously I try to be kind about it, but, you know, where if you're in a virtual environment, you have to be able to communicate and we need to all be able to have those conversations. And so I'm really— and I always say the same thing at the beginning. And Ashley, I remember Ashley saying when she got hired, like I was— she thought she was dead in the water after the first interview. And so I start by saying, you know, I want to go back to high school, college. How did you do grade-wise? I don't care what your level is. You could— I could be bringing a VP on. I could be bringing on, you know, an account manager. It doesn't matter. And you would be surprised how much people get either excited or turned off by having to go that far back, if you will. And I just want you to talk to me about where you went, why you went, how you got there. Just talk. I just want to talk. You learn so much about people and how they work and their intentions when you do that.

Yeah, 100%. I think the same thing happens when you have your podcasts, right? I mean, obviously we will talk about this a lot, but The two of you host a podcast, and that was one of the things, Ashley, I'm gonna bring it up a little earlier than I was going to because I feel like this is the perfect tee-in because I know when I'm interviewing people, the same kind of things, right? They can look good on paper, they can have all these things, but they might not have that intangible quality. And so I figured out how to make sure that they do for the most part, but it can be very difficult. And I think it's something we all have to learn if you're going to own and operate a business. If you're gonna be president of a business, you need to know that it's not just about the paper, it's not just about the charisma, it's about the other things that you talked about. So Ashley, you, you did tee up a little bit about the podcast in, you know, living in the gray area, looking at things to see, to test them and see if they'll work for the agency or not. So how did the podcast become one of those things that you said we should probably test this? And now of course it's a great property.

Yeah. So I mean, when you're an agency, it's kind of hard because a lot of agencies will say the same things, have similar types of product offerings. So how do you differentiate yourselves? And time and time again, we hear from our clients, it's the people we work with on the day to day. It's how smart they are. It is how kind they are, the kind of communication, the relationships we build. Like, we love to say that that's the best kind of compliment that you can get from a client, is that they want to work with you. We feel like an extension of their team. But then it's also really hard to get an intro call with somebody. Everyone is so busy these days and you can't really show them your personality until you get on the phone with them. And then the connections start happening and you start figuring out what's going to work and what might not work too. But when we were at the beginning of last year, kind of setting up what are our new business goals and tests going to be for the year, because we always try to test new things. We were at a brainstorm and this idea of a podcast came up. And trying to get ourselves, our personalities, what you see is what you get with us. Like, these are the people you're working with. You're going to get on an intro call with me and then you're going to work with me and we're going to make sure that the test and whatever we're doing is work. And I'm going to be bringing people on that team and you're going to work with us. So I remember being like, all right, let's talk more about this podcast. And it just seemed like it would be an interesting thing to try, except Diana's one reservation was she did not want it to be any video. And I was like, that's not gonna work because we need social media pages and all content is video content and we need a YouTube channel and people expect to see the people that they could potentially work with. So there was a, we had a lot of conversations about it and we made it work. I mean, Deanna's like doing crazy things on video. I'm like, try this social media trend.

Seriously, the things Ashley makes me do for reels and promos is, I can't believe I do. Any half of it. Like, seriously. But it was like, all right, whatever it is. It is.

Yeah. But for those who haven't watched an episode yet and haven't seen your socials, can you share an example of one that really pushed you, Diana, that, that turned out like to do really well?

Which one? Which do we think probably did the best?

So there was one. So, uh, Ducks Unplugged is the podcast, and there was one reel from maybe a couple months ago. And the way we do it is we try to shoot a couple episodes in a the basement of my house is the studio. So we have our little studio set up, and we come in for a day every month, and we set everything up, and we shoot. And then at the end of the day, we film our reels. And it had just been an exceptionally long podcast day, and I wanted to— Diana to do this whole reel with a quote from Khloé Kardashian talking about God. And it's like, 'Rob, what do you want from me? A check?

A car?

My soul?' And it was just such a long day, and she must have done that take 25 times.

Because I never said I can memorize things. I never claimed I could. Like, I'm not an actor, and I had to remember this line, and everybody's watching me, and I feel like a moron because I can't nail it. And then it's— it was not great.

We are cracking up too behind the scenes, which is not helpful because she's trying her best out there. But it turned out perfect, and it was very well received. But it's a lot of stuff like that. I'll bring something trending or an audio or something. And she looks at me for a second and she just goes, okay, here we go, let's do it. But it's again, just like part of showing personality and creativity in that we know what's going on in the world and we can come on a trend or we can start our own trend. Like it's part of the process of getting to know us and who we are.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And one belief we have is it started— it was Ashley's belief and I now believe it as well— is it doesn't have to be perfect. Right? We're not looking to make perfect content every time. We're looking to make relatable, engaging, authentic, as you said earlier, content. Right? And that's through our promos as well as through the podcast and our agency, frankly. So, you know, if we have a couple of slip-ups or if it's like, you know, she made me do— I am not a Star Wars person. We had May the 4th be with you. We had Star Wars masks on and lightsabers in her backyard. We look ridiculous, right?

My neighbor. Was out there doing work in his backyard, and he must have thought that we had lost our minds because these two women are lightsaber fighting in the backyard on a Wednesday at like 11 o'clock in the morning.

Yeah.

And not nailing it.

Not nailing it.

I'm sure we were not doing it right. Right.

So here's the thing. I mean, it's going to make it very easy for clients to see if you're for them or not.

Right, exactly, exactly.

And in a world where— I know this is probably something we'll be talking about too— generative AI, people want to see authentic, they want to see raw, they want to see transparency. They don't want to see perfect. They don't want to see the perfect thing that you can create with AI. They want to see who am I actually going to work with. And the fact that you're the people that they'll see on the podcast and then you're actually going to be working with them, that makes a huge difference too, right? Because We know in bigger agencies, a lot of times people, there's a team that comes in to do the pitch and then there's a whole other team that comes in to actually do the work.

And so, yeah, we say that all the time. I mean, we, we only hire, this started from day one. We only hire really seasoned people for every role within the company. Virtual, I think, is, would potentially be tough for fresh out of school. Uh, you can't not do, you know, never say never, but, and so, so that allows everybody to be able to take on a good share. And yeah, so that helps for sure.

And, you know, I'm a big believer that everybody should have a podcast, and maybe not everybody should have a podcast, but I do love helping people figure out what their message would be and start one and get in front of the right audiences. How did you know? What was that moment when you said, we are reaching the right people? Maybe you're getting that call, you're getting that email coming in.

Yeah. I think it's kind of really, well, we've had a couple iterations of the podcast. I would say we started out as a very marketing-heavy podcast, and every once in a while we would interject something fun that we called like a duck debate, where we would just debate wild random things like whether or not you should make your bed in the morning or you should let your sheets breathe, or do you use bar soap versus liquid soap, like really crazy things to give a break. And we started to get really good feedback from that. So the content started shifting a little bit. It would be a little bit of marketing, a little bit of brands, but then we'd interject more fun, work-life, career. I mean, Diana and I have both been young for a lot of the roles that we've had over the years. So we just bring a lot of different perspectives. So I think at the beginning when we first started and it was very marketing heavy, there was a lot of awesome affirmations from current clients. So that was great for retention. This podcast is exactly who you guys are. We are so happy to see you, um, start this. And then a lot of the vendors and the partners that we work with, the same thing. We have one partner that we work with. He listens to every podcast and he will email us ideas, feedback. It's amazing. And now we're really getting into, as we switch the content more on the client side. So for example, a lot of the times we'll do brainstorms and we might talk about a lot of big brands, um, that we have ideas for and we'll take those clips and we'll send them to them for prospecting. So like ideation, Showing that we're really quick and smart on our feet. And it won't be like a pre-planned thing. We don't pre-plan our content. It'll be our producer Cindy picking names out of a hat that she randomly brings. So we have no idea, like we're pairing Uber with Dracula for Halloween and coming up with a marketing campaign on the spot. So that has been really where we're going now in terms of prospecting. We know who you are, we know what you need, and here we are like this. Seems like a match made in heaven, respond to us.

Yeah. Yeah. And so I think, you know, we got a lot of feedback on the banter. It's, you can't fake chemistry, right? So, so you either have it or you don't. And, and Ashley and I are, and we really started getting feedback on the two-generation thing, which is I think pretty unique in the market. Like you don't see that often on these podcasts with a Gen X and a, a millennial. And we really do think about things differently. Like one, like For example, one episode I was talking about the TV Guide and Ashley was like, oh yeah, the thing that scrolls and it doesn't stop. And I'm like, oh my God, you don't know what the printed TV Guide is, you know? And so, so it just bleeds into everything that we talk about, whether it's kind of a fun topic or if it's a meatier topic with leadership or business or parenting or whatever, you know, it's just kind of a fun two-lens, uh, view of a lot of of different things.

I would— that was exactly where I was gonna go next because I do think that's a really unique perspective and I think it's a really fun perspective. I would say I teach grad school for digital media and marketing and social media, and a lot of my students are younger, but I do get some students who are X or maybe even a little bit older sometimes. But it's really funny to try to use examples of things and I'm like, I don't even know if they know what that is.

Right. Oh, it's, yeah, we, the episode coming out this week, we called it the vocab test. We, every once in a while we'll do just like, like Ashley said, kind of a really fun mini episode. And we tested each other. So I brought Gen X terms or events. She brought millennials. We had Cindy test us on boomers. Just for the record, I did quite well.

I did so bad.

Ashley did not get one.

I went like 0 for 10. You brought so many crazy obscure things that I don't even know that my husband, who's a Gen X, would know. I haven't had a chance to test him yet, but they were crazy.

He'll know. He'll know who Baby Jessica is. Okay. Anika, you know who Baby Jessica is, right? Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I wasn't nice. I did not play nice in the sandbox for that episode.

Oh, it sounds like that's going to go right on my watch list immediately. But I also love the fact that you talked about how it was very marketing heavy to begin with and you realized you really need to bring your whole selves and your personalities to the show because that's the same thing. I started out as a PR podcast and I was like, oh, this is— I don't just want to talk to other publicists or, you know, and some like clients. And then I'm like, okay, now let's just expand it and have fun because, right, it's something you can learn from every story.

Yes, exactly, exactly. And, you know, I think I'm a big believer in sort of smart is smart. Like, so whether you're talking about a specific campaign strategy or defining what a product is or brainstorming on the spot. We literally did a whole episode on mascots and, you know, ended it with—

call it—

what did I call it? Confessionals. Basically therapy, right? Like, so if the Green Giant was going into a therapy session, what would he talk about and how would we help? So, you know, so like some of this on the spot, it's smartest smart. It's going to come out in anything that you're discussing and talking about, right? And you want to have fun and you want to enjoy yourself when you're listening to to podcasts. You're taking a half an hour of your, your day to tune in with us. We gotta— we want to make it interesting, right?

So I think as marketers too, we source inspiration from everywhere. So when we were realizing we were just getting too literal on ourselves at the beginning, because when we're trying to be creative or thinking, I'm not necessarily going to a marketing podcast to do that. I need a little bit of everything. So I think we were putting— we put ourselves in a box by accident. And now we've, we've opened that box and we are very far out of it and just, you know, testing and trying all this new content that it's been really well received.

Yeah. And some haven't, and some haven't worked, and that's okay too. Like, we've, we filmed some, some podcast episodes, listen back, and we're like, that didn't do it. We're gonna, we're gonna pass on. That's okay too, right? We're learning as we go.

So, and then you have the hard decision of, do you go ahead and put it out, or do you just put it in the, you know, like, do you just bury it?

Yeah, we've buried a few.

97% go out. It's only been a couple. There was one where we tried to— and did we post this one? I don't think we did.

The marketing dating show.

So we tried to do a dating show for marketing channels, and I, I— we barely made it through. We were laughing so hard. We were like, if acquisition email took you on a blind date, what would it be like? And then we had somebody else listen to it, and she was like, I love the concept. It's just so abstract. I don't know if people are gonna get it. It just was very far out of the box. We tried it, it didn't really work, but maybe we make it a mini segment sometime.

Yeah, we— maybe we could, yeah, bring it back.

Could you at least share it on social media? Because that sounds—

yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's okay to share things if it's not 100, you know, like, that's, that's part of the authenticity piece of it, but But let's go back because we never talked about the name.

So the agency name and then the Ducks Unplugged.

Yes. Yes. So our agency was not always Blue Duck Agency. It had another name. It used to be a very direct mail forward agency because that was a primary channel back in the day. We still do direct mail and direct mail still works exceptionally well.

Yes.

But a lot of people don't do it these days. But if you're interested in it, please call us because the mailbox boxes are so quiet, and the clients that I do it for, we want good mail. Very well, right, right.

And the younger generations actually like it. There's this myth out there that Gen Z doesn't like— so it's not true.

Yes. Yeah, it's something unique than what they're used to and what they're expecting. And I mean, I know when I get something good in the mail, I'm always so happy because most of it is like coupons and ads for things that I'm never going to use, right?

Right, right, exactly.

So as we were thinking about, you know, what does the future of the agency look like? And Diana, like, pulls a big brainstorming session together and we're trying to talk about this. And we started to think about like, how should we be? And we do this thing called No Meeting Wednesdays. So on every Wednesday we try to have no meetings. Sporadically a client will request a meeting and we say yes, but the idea is to do big picture thinking, thinking outside of your to-do list. And at one point Diana put together this whole, like, billboard advertising campaign on a No Meeting Wednesday and books a meeting on our calendars for like the Thursday and is like, hey, I want to take you through these billboards. And we're like, all right. And there is this one image and it's the header of our website and it's all these yellow ducks and one blue duck in the middle. And it just felt like very representative of something that we didn't know what it was yet. And then Diana started thinking about it more and we came up with this like radical name change that I loved because I said, if I'm in an elevator with somebody for like 2 seconds and I say, I'm Ashley from Blue Duck Agency, that's going to get some attention.

100%.

They're going to say, what? Like, what does that mean? And that's my in for like the elevator pitch. So we became Blue Duck Agency.

Yeah. So the, it's the whole concept is what she had said earlier, which is as an agency, you probably get this too, right? It's so hard to differentiate yourself because everybody says and sells very similar things. So to have that really powerful image of that one blue duck in the sea of yellow ducks is a great sort of attention getter. And then pay it off with— if you actually think about the duck, right, they are paddling for their little lives underneath the water, but they are calm as, as can be on top. And that's what we do for our clients, right?

Yeah.

So it was a really good— it was a really good fit. And then the podcast.

Ducks.

We're a little unplugged, right? A little unplugged.

That's brilliant because you think about ducks and you probably think about very different types of businesses than what you are.

Yes.

But that also is memorable, right?

Yeah. So, yeah, and it sounds more social, sounds more digital, right? We would morph from sort of more of that direct mail type company to more of an email digital agency, and we needed the name to morph with it.. And so it was also important to, to make that change at that point as well.

Nice. Going back to the Gen X, millennial play, what does each generation do you think bring to the table when it comes to your agency as well that the other generation may not?

That's an excellent question. I don't actually think we've ever gotten anything like that before too. So absolutely brilliant. I can answer. I do think that there are a lot of similarities, especially between me and Diana, because we both have had similar career paths. Paths, being younger and the, in the roles that we were in, and upward mobility with leadership and just continuing on to the next phase. For me, I always say that there's this level of hustle culture in the millennial ages, and that's a term that Diana was like, I didn't know what that was, like, I had to look that up. But there was just this like extreme, like, we basically rebranded being anxious and overwhelmed into this thing called hustle culture. And that was on top of every single thing that I did from college all the way through. So I just think that maybe a different level of pressure on millennials that we put there on ourselves. So whatever that says about us, that's what it is. But I do think our generation like just works extremely hard and is not afraid to try new things because that's how we were brought up, just hustling.

Which I will represent the two of us when I say this. We've had conversations on our podcast. I was like, so what are you saying, Gen X doesn't work hard? Like, no, I feel like we were— so it's just different.

I think, you know what I mean? It's just louder about it. I feel like you always say, like, Diana, when you were growing up, like, go outside, come back at dark, good luck. Like, you're on your own, no fanfare about it. So I feel like the millennials just were louder about the same thing and we branded it.

So I think that's what it is. I think it's just sort of how you were raised, the generational differences. I think that they naturally play out in thinking and strategy or like how to reach. So we do a ton of targeting, right, for, for our, at our agency. And, you know, which segment are you trying to reach? And, and that's where it comes in a lot and sort of how you think about the different age demographics and their needs and where they're at and sort of what they're bringing to whatever the product or services we're trying to sell, right? So I think a lot of that comes out too, and it's great balance, right? Having different perspectives just makes the thinking and the ideation so much better. I feel very strongly about that. You want to hire people who complement you, aren't identical to you, right? That's— there's no value in that. I have one of me already.

We—

that's good. That's enough. You know, let's go get somebody else, right? And so I think that's been very complimentary. For, and it's true across a number of people on the team. So it's— does that answer your question?

Yeah, it's a really great reframe because I think it is. I mean, I'm very Gen X, but I also have always been part of the hustle culture. So I was like, oh, I never thought about that. But yeah, actually, as you said, we did not grow up with all the technology and having to show ourselves on everything. We just did the thing.

Yeah.

And probably a lot of the things that we did, we don't want to be published on social media when we were younger. Yeah.

So true story. Yeah.

So it's a double-edged sword, right? Because we'll do the work and we don't necessarily have to be in the forefront and have it all be touted, but we do need to make sure that we are showing things off like the millennials would with, you know, making sure that we're out there and we are showing what we're doing and that we're proud of it and we're showcasing it properly. So that's, I love the little distinctions that you you all came up with. Yeah, I have never thought about it quite in that way, so I'm learning something new.

This is a peek into the podcast too, because we'll often get a question and we will take it in two very different directions, just how our brains work, how we work, the generations we're from, which just offers different types of, you know, views for people.

Yeah. And what's interesting, and then you could really get deep— we, we talked about this on an episode recently— of then layer on the, the female aspect of it, right? Because Boomer women versus Gen X women versus millennial women. Like, it's— it really has evolved in many, and we've all sort of set the stage for each other in different ways, right? And it's kind of fascinating to look at it, but all of that's ingrained in us and how we present and think and, and do the things.

Yeah. And you're both mothers as well, correct?

That's another big difference for us. Yeah, we're both mothers. So I have, um, old— much older kids. My youngest is just graduated. She's going to college in September. So I have two— I have a 20-year-old and an 18-year-old, right? And I'm divorced and I'm dating, right? Ashley's very married, has a 7-year-old, you know, she's right in the thick of it with schedules and hockey and you know what I mean. I'm through that. I'm in the like, what am I gonna do next with my life, right? In my next chapter. So it—

again, it's fascinating to see how that all kind of plays out in various topics, but also in the 18-year-old going off to university and divorced in a partnership. But yes, yeah, of like, all right, so like, what next? I still have my dog, but he's 13, so, you know, yeah, what is next? The house is going to be so empty. I'm not going to have to, you know, that schedule that I have to adhere to.

Clean but clean.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, for sure.

Ashley, you still have all that to look forward to. I am, but I think that also matches all of our perspectives and the way we show up and the way we want to show up to work and with our clients.

Definitely, definitely, definitely.

Tiana, you also have a blog?

No, but I want to. No, but you just hit on a life goal for me.

Okay, yeah, I'm just thinking about that. I thought you wrote called Hire the Intangibles.

That's me wanting to be a writer. Remember I said I wanted to be a copywriter? So I've written a few pieces for the agency and published it. Yeah, maybe I should have a blog, Ashley. I think I've written a few at this point. And so, so yeah, so every once in a while, you know, again, we're just testing and trying. We're trying to produce some content that reflects sort of how we think, our leadership, and how we approach business and try to use that through LinkedIn and other sources to, to try to promote the agency and promote the— agencies are all about the people.

Always.

I don't care what anybody says. It's all about the people, which is why what you said is such a tricky thing of having the team that comes in to sell you on why us and then having it handed off. I, that was sort of one of the core principles, the owner and myself, we don't subscribe to that. You know, who you meet, who you see, who sells you in is going to be the team of people. I mean, barring somebody leaving, right? But it's going to be the team of people that, that work with you throughout the life cycle of, of the relationship.

So, and I think that's, that's such a differentiator and it's really values-driven. And you should have a blog, by the way, because I think not only intangibles, but a lot of people don't know exactly how to hire for those things. And so even if people stick to the hiring for intangibles, right? Just thinking about the intangibles.

Yeah, it's true.

So this is my little encouragement to make it like a full your own blog, not just—

Okay, I love it. I'm putting that away. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Especially because I reshare your things on LinkedIn quite often because they're just written very well and they're very, very relevant topics. So I'm like, hi, Jana, I'm going to share your post today with some of my commentary. And she's like, great, go for it. But if we start flattering, it's flattering. There we go.

Yeah. Yeah, it's true though, because it's like, how do you— everybody says the same things when you're interviewing them, right? I mean, like, obviously I know you're going to say you're organized and you're good attention to detail and whatever. It's like you want people who are going to— and we have that at our company, which is pretty unique. They work. It's as if they are owning the company, right? They're invested in what we're doing. They're dedicated and committed in a way that you can't— like, It's— you can't put a price on that, right? And so the flip side of that is I try to also be as giving as I can to the rest of the team and the staff on giving back. Like, you work really hard for us, you give so much, you're so committed, you want this company to succeed. I'm going to make sure that I'm going to return that back to you in performance bonuses, or time off is a big thing, or whatever. We have so many holidays, you know, we have employee appreciation days. Twice a year, you know, so trying to— it has to go both ways, right? But trying to find those things and find those qualities when you're interviewing somebody is really important. Really important. And I haven't always nailed it, just for the record. But, you know, it's critical. But I think it's part of the reason why our teams have been so successful over the years.

Yeah. Well, and let's talk— so you're being honest, your own you know, ambitions. You're also perhaps sharing, I mean, right now you're being very transparent about it doesn't always work, right? The failures. You've probably had times when you've doubted whether the direction you're going in is correct or not, whether for, for yourselves personally or for a specific client. How do you thread this needle between being honest, authentic, transparent, like radical honesty and authenticity, right? That I believe helps us show up in the best possible way. But also, I know sometimes, especially when employees— I mean, I think you, you do hire more seasoned people, but when somebody's starting out somewhere new, there is a point where sometimes they're a little too comfortable, a little too casual. But how do you make sure that, you know, in— as a leader, that you're exemplifying all these ideals that we've talked about, but still making sure people are showing up professionally and with their client?

Like I said, so for example, I hate year-end reviews. I think year-end reviews are kind of silly. You know, it's— we do them, we have done them, although I don't think we're doing them this year. We have done them, but I'm more of a believer in you should never be waiting until the end of the year to have a conversation with somebody, right? You have real-time feedback that works both ways, not only the areas of opportunity and improvement, but make sure you tell people they're doing a great job when they do a great job, right? So, from a management perspective, if somebody is exhibiting qualities or making decisions or getting too comfortable or whatever, that is addressed, I would say, 9 out of 10 times. I haven't— like I said, I haven't been always perfect, but 9 out of 10 times right away. And I tell people that, like, I, you know, just— you have to expect there's, there's good and bad with that. Like, if, if there's something going on, I'm gonna share it right away. We're gonna have a conversation about it. I'm also going to tell you when you're amazing and doing a great job. So I think that helps head things off. And yeah, sometimes people can't handle it. I mean, I've, I've had instances and I've had instances in the last year where they just, they don't agree or they got too comfortable or they thought that the role was something that it wasn't and they leave. And, and that's okay. That's okay too. You know, I think how you leave is really important, but if it's not a fit, it's not a fit. And that goes for us and that goes for the people on the team. You just wanna leave with grace and professionally, you know, on both sides with us if we're making the decision and vice versa.

Absolutely. Since Ashley came from a background of, again, very regulated, kind of more formal industries, who do you serve best at Blue Duck? Like, do you have specific verticals that you really love to work with? And I imagine they must be a little more fun.

I mean, it's been very fun since I started working here. Although I will say every job is like a means to an end and a reason. So I wouldn't take back anything. I actually met my husband at my first job.

So yeah, she was a scandalous— she was a scandalous bank employee.

Wow.

Love is love. And here we are and we have a 7-year-old. So it worked out. But no, the work that we do is very industry and client agnostic. So we're able to work really with anybody. One of the main channels we do is acquisition email, which is basically cold prospect emailing. We've been doing it since 2014, which is a very long time for this world. Yeah, we were pretty early, very regulated. We've worked tirelessly to become experts at it because it can be extremely effective and efficient. And a channel like that can work for anything from a product to a service to a membership subscription. So that's been really fun, not having limits. Limits on the type of clients we can work with, the types of projects we can support, which is, you know, different from obviously selling HVAC equipment, uh, energy efficiency rebates, or opening a checking account for somebody.

You are quite knowledgeable about it though. We, um, we do a lot in the membership subscription space, uh, not exclusively, but we do a lot in that space. And, and, you know, one of Ashley's sort of greatest— I love the saying greatest strengths, greatest weakness. But one of her greatest strengths, which is not a weakness, but it might be why I almost didn't hire her, is she's very even, you know what I mean? She's very— and so she doesn't get rattled very easily. So if she gets rattled, you know something's going on. But we work— one of our clients, I can't name the specific client, but one of our clients is in the casino space. And that's been really fun and interesting and fascinating because it introduces a whole new layer of like tribal council and like all stuff that you have to navigate from a contractual standpoint, from a creative approval standpoint, you know. So I would say I am speaking for you, but I bet that's been one of the more fun ones in recent years because that was kind of, you're like, no, we're going to figure this out. I do like it. We're going to get this done.

Yes, I do like a challenge. If you tell me something can't be done, I really will try to get it done. And every once in a while, hold my drink.

Yeah, correct. Right.

Yeah. No, like in most recent, that was probably I mean, talk about a contract process. When we were done with that, everyone was like, that's it, we can celebrate now. Like, great job. So yeah, I mean, it really depends. It has— being in an agency is fun and being in an agency like this, we have really great culture and really great people. That is exceptionally fun. And I feel like at the end of the day, like, we're not curing a disease, we're doing marketing. So you should have fun in the day to day. And of course we have to perform and deliver for our clients, but like you can have a little fun along the way doing it. It's, it's better for that.

And I do wanna talk a little bit about generative AI, but right here we're making the case for why humanity is so important. Yes. We need to have these kind of conversations. We need real people behind campaigns. I love using AI, but I also—

Yeah, same.

I think that we've seen things come up in the last couple years. Oh, you can create your whole digital agency just using AI and you're gonna make all this money. But I've seen a backlash towards, is this ad made with AI or is it actual people, right? Do you have people, do you just use it for some systems and processes but not for everything? Like there's, there's a lot in there. I think that, that we're seeing a movement towards, yes, humanity with a, you know, sprinkle it in where you can. So, I'd love to hear about your philosophy at the agency, 'cause I'm sure that's one of the things that you've tested.

Oh gosh. Yeah. And everybody's, I mean, it, It's, you know, everybody thinks it's going to be everything in the future, like it's going to replace everything. And marketing is getting really affected right now by AI. I named my ChatGPT, her name is Janice. And so like, I'm not anti-AI. I love Janice. There's a time and a place to use Janice. Claude's great. You know, you can use both of them for different things. They're not all equal, right? But podcast content, for example, you know, I will often use it for thought starters, but then there's I iterate that prompt, we're talking 5, 6 times to get to a place that is even something I can use. And so if you don't do that, what's going to happen? And I think we're starting to see it happen a bit is everybody's doing the same things, right? It has the potential to make us actually dumber in some ways. You know, it's sort of a dramatic way to say it, but you can't take out that thinking, that human element, the experience, right? The life stuff that we were just talking about, all of that factors into strategy, creativity, And that's what makes campaigns work ultimately in the end. So it's a tool for sure, and absolutely I use it to help certain areas of my job be more efficient, but it cannot replace the human thinking, the creativity. It just can't, not yet. And I don't think it ever will be able to. People want it to because it's going to be cheaper, it's going to be easier, right? But eventually everybody's going to be outputting the same things.

Yeah, a tool in the toolbox. That's how I look at it. It's one of the many things that I use on a day-to-day basis to get work done.

And it's tricky because, I mean, I'm sure you saw the Super Bowl commercial with Claude, but like ChatGPT being taking ad dollars and, and being willing to eventually going to get to the point too, like, is it real? Is Janice giving me Cetaphil as the best lotion to use because it's actually the best lotion to use, or because they are partnering with them and getting ad dollars? So like, you know, you in a sneakier in that sense, because at least with Google you have the sponsored on top, right? So I think we have a long ways to go, but as a supporting tool used correctly, it's great.

Nice. Going back to the brands that you talk about, pop culture moments on the podcast, and that you weave into the reels and all that, is there a brand moment that you have particularly loved recently?

Oh, there's a couple. I mean, I just had a really embarrassing stint with Tupperware. We were doing an episode on glow-ups and Cindy, our producer, was picking out of a hat and how would we glow up Tupperware? And I was so excited about suggesting exciting colors and patterns and all these things. And Diana let me go on for a minute or two and she's like, I think they have that already. And then I'm like, oh, Okay. And then I'm trying again and she's like, I think they have that too.

She's like, maybe they should have the kind of the lids that latch to the thing. And I'm like, yeah, when was the last time you were at a store?

Like, they—

but so funny.

Again, like, why don't I know this? I feel like I'm Tupperware's prime audience. I am going to be 38 years old with a 7-year-old. I'm trying to organize my things. Why don't I know that Tupperware has this stuff?

So another one is, which we really actually feel really strongly about this one, Netflix. So I think we came up with like the most brilliant product idea for Netflix, which is a binge pass. So people— this could apply to other, obviously, people, but you know, have trying to get the people that haven't subscribed. There's a reason, right? Obviously they don't want the commitment of the monthly or the monthly cost. So do a binge pass where you can get incremental revenue from people who aren't going to subscribe for a 1-week, 2-week, 1-month, whatever it is, binge pass. And then hopefully they get hooked and then they can justify the spend, right? So that was like one idea. And then we've kind of taken that and run with it. We had a dating, sort of online dating idea that they could have a collab with like a Bumble or something or Hinge. And, and then, you know, we came up with the mascot, right? The owl, the night owl. And because, because 'cause one thing about Netflix is it's overwhelming when you don't know what you wanna watch and sort of sifting through all the content. So that's where AI could be used better, I think, with a little night owl that can help you comb through and come up. So we've come up, I think we have some great ideas for some of these, but that's a great example of a clip that we, we would take and send it to Netflix.

Nice.

Why not? Yeah.

Right? Yeah.

But brilliant idea.

Just thinking about a guilty pleasure show that I'm watching right now, but then I'm going on holiday for 2 weeks. So we're like, okay, we have to watch all the episodes this week and then I'm going to like cancel it. Not— it's not Netflix, it's a different one, but the subscription because, you know, we're not going to need to watch it.

Yeah, right. Yeah, right. You have to obviously share what the show is now.

Love Island.

Please. Are you kidding me? I'm like watching every day. Casa Amor.

No, I'm behind. We just watched the June 16th episode yesterday, so—

Oh, casa, more just happened last night.

Okay, well, okay.

Yeah, it's coming.

Like, we can't just, you know, we try to go back and forth and like watch something like Widow's Bay or like an Apple or something a little bit heftier and then go back to the, you know, the insane—

You know what, own your guilty pleasures. I say all the time, like, my job is stressful, my day is stressful, my I, God help me, I made it through their teen years. You know what I mean? Like, I like my reality, no thinking, ridiculous TV at night. And I'm unashamed at this point in my life. So just own it, right? You and everybody else in the world that's watching it.

True, true. Do you see, or do you have any forecasts for the direction you think branding and marketing are going to go in the next couple of years?

Oh, it's going to keep changing. I mean, the one thing about marketing is never the same, like it's always innovating. So I would expect more change. I think one interesting thing is we went from longer form content into shorter form content, and there's going to be a resurgence to maybe like a middle form type of content. So people want more than just the quick 30 seconds, but they don't have the attention spans anymore for the really long content. So they need something in the middle. So I think content styles and trends are going to change. And then I do think AI, we're going to be talking about it for years and figuring out how it continues to fit in best.

And there's going to be new stuff that is being cooked up right now that we don't know yet. Yeah, just right. Exactly. I mean, it's hard. It's, it's hard to get eyeballs these days. I mean, it's, we have all at work, all giving ourselves ADD, I swear, with everything that's going on. You're on your phone, you're watching the TV, you're, you know what I mean? So being able to stand out and get some mindshare in a meaningful way that somebody can actually— that is paying attention and will take an action. It's getting harder and harder and harder to do that. And it's so cluttered out there. So we got to find something that will stick a bit more.

Well, it sounds like direct mail is actually a really good way to stand out.

I mean, it is. It's expensive. I mean, it's obviously more expensive, but, but part, and the Postal Service is not doing themselves any favors as they keep increasing the postage rate. But you know, one of the things that we do a lot of is targeting and modeling data. So if you're, if you're really going to the segments that you think are gonna move the needle the most, you're not going to everybody, right? That's where the more expensive, you know, vehicles can pay off because you should theoretically be getting a lot higher of a return. So it's just case by case where it makes sense.

Yeah. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Well, this has been a really fun conversation. This is exactly what I love to have. I like to have strategy and I like to have the human stuff underneath because that really to me is where the power is. I appreciate both of you being on the show. We will have links to Ducks Unplugged and Blue Duck Agency in the show notes for people to check out. But I do always ask, do you have a favorite quote, mantra, verse, poem, family motto, words that continue to inspire you to do what you do, to be who you are?

That'd be a yes for Diana. Which one is it?

You grow up the day you have your first real laugh at yourself. I've had this since I was young, and I love this quote because I think it's It's like Ashley said, we are not curing cancer and you need to be able to have fun, laugh at yourself, not take yourself too seriously. I feel strongly about that. And even at my level at this point, obviously there's a time and a place to be professional and you have to sort of read your, read the room, read the audience. But also let's, one life, right? One life.

I don't know if I have anything like a specific quote, but right now in my crazy life as a mom, I'm just focusing on being myself and being completely fine with who I am and who I want to continue to be. And that helps bring clarity to everything else that I'm doing right now, because if I can start as a happy, healthy Ashley, then everything else falls into place from there.

Oh yeah, that's beautiful. It's a lesson that can take a long time to learn, so kudos to you, Ari.

Yeah, I know.

Thank you.

I know, I've said that to her too. Like, you're— some of the things she says, I'm like, you're an old soul. Like, she's learning so much earlier than I learned. Yeah, maybe in some cases I haven't learned yet. So it's— which is great, very, very healthy.

It's the generational perspective though. Like, you learn from the generation above you if you have the capacity to learn. Like, open your eyes to what everyone else has done, and then you'll learn quicker about what might work for you or not.

I love it. Well, thank you both so much, Diana and Ashley. This has been so fun. Thank you to everybody who's watching this episode or listening to Don't forget, leave us a rating review, let us know what you like, and definitely check out Docs Unplugged. And if you are looking for marketing services and you've resonated with this conversation, you know who to go to. Again, all the links will be in the show notes, and I'll be back again with another amazing guest very soon to share their story, their journey, and some tips and tricks for you. Thanks for listening or watching to this episode of Your Brand Amplified. Don't forget to leave us a rating rating or review on your favorite podcast listening platform. And if you want to learn more, check us out at yourbrandamplified.com.